Vietnam

[StAnne]

Dec 15, 2013 23:16:49 GMT -5 BobWilliston said:

Dec 4, 2013 20:34:21 GMT -5 déjà vu said:

I believe some F&W adhere to the principal of the " greater good. "
like “ if we save a soul it is permissible to lie to the authorities "

According to Paul, it was also okay for him to lie a little bit if it brought people to Christ!

Dec 16, 2013 0:16:22 GMT -5 déjà vu said:

you are right Bob , this is also true for Rahab and a few others

Jos 2:4 And the woman took the two men, and hid them, and said thus, There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were:

No. Quite the opposite. St Paul was speaking of a sinful man who might lie. Not himself.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

For if the truth of God,.... The "truth of God" is the same with "the righteousness of God", Romans 3:5, and means his faithfulness; of which it is hypothetically said, it
hath more abounded; or has been more illustrated,

through my lie to his glory: nothing is more opposite to truth than a lie; a lie of itself can never be of any advantage to truth, or to the God of truth; nothing is more contrary to the nature of God, and more abominable to him; a lie is of the devil, and punishable with eternal death; wherefore it may seem strange, that the truth of God should abound through it to his glory: now let it be observed, that the apostle is not speaking of himself, nor of his lie of unbelief, in his state of unregeneracy; but in the person of a sinful man, "for every man is a liar",
biblehub.com/romans/3-7.htm

May we not say, (as some falsely pretend St. Paul said) let us do evil things, that good things may come of them? The apostle answers in short both this objection, and the calumny against him. As to the first; that though men's sins give an occasion to God to shew his justice, and make known his divine perfections, yet this will not excuse them from being justly condemned, and punished, when God shall judge the wicked world; ...
haydock1859.tripod.com/id147.html

[quizzer]

Dec 16, 2013 11:17:38 GMT -5 minhthanh said:

Starting the conversation with a cross-question. Look at me Darrel asked:

”How do you feel, when receiving a gift from a worker worthy 80.000 USD”

You could have said, "It feels about the same when a professing friend turns over their inheritance to the workers instead of their family." That's part of how the workers get their money, in addition to regular amounts from the friends.

I'm glad you're honorable, minhthanh.

[quizzer]

Dec 15, 2013 22:57:14 GMT -5 BobWilliston said:

Nov 30, 2013 17:57:07 GMT -5 Greg said:

As for the list of people allowed to attend the special meeting, could this have been a prevention to keep by-passers and such out?

In Alberta they booted people for going to a meeting they were not assigned to attend.

I've known of a young couple who were corrected for going to different Sunday morning meetings in their area, trying to decide which meeting they wanted to attend. This was about 15 years ago, but I would be surprised if the policy has changed. Basically, the workers decide which meeting you attend, you don't get that choice.

[Deleted]

Dec 16, 2013 11:28:22 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Thank you again Minh Thanh.

The central problem seems that Darrel believed that the house was owned by Chau and then he seemed to think that Chau was going to give it to you for free. The former issue, that Chau owned the house, is probably the greatest problem in Darrel's mind.

Do you have any documentary (legal) proof that the house was owned by Chau's brother, Mr. Hiền, and not by Chau? If you don't have legal proof, do you have any correspondence from Chau or Mr. Hiền indicating that Mr. Hiền owned the house?

Chasing the 2x2 tail is a hopeless task Clearday --- They will always invent retroactive filth to spread to justify their ugly political expulsions -- This is the exact same tactic they used to get rid of Marg. Expell and then retroactively invent reasons why it was the only choice!!!

Here is that story!!!
www.anotherstep.net/summary/ConstructedFilth.htm

The extreme gullibility of membership lets them get away with it 99% of the time. And folks just turn a blind eye to the issues that can't be denied.

[sunshine]

Dec 16, 2013 14:26:58 GMT -5 edgarmassey said:

Dec 16, 2013 11:28:22 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Thank you again Minh Thanh.

The central problem seems that Darrel believed that the house was owned by Chau and then he seemed to think that Chau was going to give it to you for free. The former issue, that Chau owned the house, is probably the greatest problem in Darrel's mind.

Do you have any documentary (legal) proof that the house was owned by Chau's brother, Mr. Hiền, and not by Chau? If you don't have legal proof, do you have any correspondence from Chau or Mr. Hiền indicating that Mr. Hiền owned the house?

Chasing the 2x2 tail is a hopeless task Clearday --- They will always invent retroactive filth to spread to justify their ugly political expulsions -- This is the exact same tactic they used to get rid of Marg. Expell and then retroactively invent reasons why it was the only choice!!!

Here is that story!!!
www.anotherstep.net/summary/ConstructedFilth.htm

The extreme gullibility of membership lets them get away with it 99% of the time. And folks just turn a blind eye to the issues that can't be denied.

wow. interesting link. You should be able to visit whoever you want..didn't realize it was so territorial and discriminatory...

[déjà vu]

your Quote Q.


"Basically, the workers decide which meeting you attend, you don't get that choice."

that is true q. but last time we were moved . they did say to let them know if it didn't work out for us.

[dmmichgood]

Dec 16, 2013 14:26:58 GMT -5 edgarmassey said:

Dec 16, 2013 11:28:22 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Thank you again Minh Thanh.

The central problem seems that Darrel believed that the house was owned by Chau and then he seemed to think that Chau was going to give it to you for free. The former issue, that Chau owned the house, is probably the greatest problem in Darrel's mind.

Do you have any documentary (legal) proof that the house was owned by Chau's brother, Mr. Hiền, and not by Chau? If you don't have legal proof, do you have any correspondence from Chau or Mr. Hiền indicating that Mr. Hiền owned the house?

Chasing the 2x2 tail is a hopeless task Clearday --- They will always invent retroactive filth to spread to justify their ugly political expulsions -- This is the exact same tactic they used to get rid of Marg. Expell and then retroactively invent reasons why it was the only choice!!!

Here is that story!!!
www.anotherstep.net/summary/ConstructedFilth.htm

The extreme gullibility of membership lets them get away with it 99% of the time. And folks just turn a blind eye to the issues that can't be denied.

Thanks, edgar, for exposing  actions that can happen in the F/W.

Using such terms as "has been a problem" and   "sending letters throughout western Canada in her own defense."  "something was not right in her spirit and ministry," -the  workers are able to maintain control and the friends are fearful that they will also lose their place in the fellowship.

All that the workers have to do is  use such terms against someone and  and there is really no way the victim can defend themselves.

How can anyone pin down such  vague accusation as "right spirit" & "has been a problem" when nothing specific is named?

Then when one attempts to defend themselves, that also is characterized as not the right spirit!



You are  right,  "Chasing the 2x2 tail is a hopeless task!"

[fixit]

Dec 16, 2013 17:13:17 GMT -5 dmmichgood said:

Dec 16, 2013 14:26:58 GMT -5 edgarmassey said:

Chasing the 2x2 tail is a hopeless task Clearday --- They will always invent retroactive filth to spread to justify their ugly political expulsions -- This is the exact same tactic they used to get rid of Marg. Expell and then retroactively invent reasons why it was the only choice!!!

Here is that story!!!
www.anotherstep.net/summary/ConstructedFilth.htm

The extreme gullibility of membership lets them get away with it 99% of the time. And folks just turn a blind eye to the issues that can't be denied.

Thanks, edgar, for exposing  actions that can happen in the F/W.

Using such terms as "has been a problem" and   "sending letters throughout western Canada in her own defense."  "something was not right in her spirit and ministry," -the  workers are able to maintain control and the friends are fearful that they will also lose their place in the fellowship.

All that the workers have to do is  use such terms against someone and  and there is really no way the victim can defend themselves.

How can anyone pin down such  vague accusation as "right spirit" & "has been a problem" when nothing specific is named?

Then when one attempts to defend themselves, that also is characterized as not the right spirit!



You are  right,  "Chasing the 2x2 tail is a hopeless task!"

It's quite simple really.

It's about politics more than principle.

If the clan or tribe is supporting you, the boundaries can be pushed.

If the clan or tribe turns against you, you're out.

[dmmichgood]

Dec 16, 2013 18:47:50 GMT -5 fixit said:

Dec 16, 2013 17:13:17 GMT -5 dmmichgood said:

Thanks, edgar, for exposing  actions that can happen in the F/W.

Using such terms as "has been a problem" and   "sending letters throughout western Canada in her own defense."  "something was not right in her spirit and ministry," -the  workers are able to maintain control and the friends are fearful that they will also lose their place in the fellowship.

All that the workers have to do is  use such terms against someone and  and there is really no way the victim can defend themselves.

How can anyone pin down such  vague accusation as "right spirit" & "has been a problem" when nothing specific is named?

Then when one attempts to defend themselves, that also is characterized as not the right spirit!



You are  right,  "Chasing the 2x2 tail is a hopeless task!"

It's quite simple really.

It's about politics more than principle.

If the clan or tribe is supporting you, the boundaries can be pushed.

If the clan or tribe turns against you, you're out.

True, -yes, it is about the politics of any religion.

Forget the nice warm fuzziness of the supposed  love & kindness that they are supposed to reflect of their  "god!"

Just stay on the right side of the workers, whether they are right or wrong, and ignore the person beaten & robbed & lying in the ditch.

I'm not   so sure that it is the "gullibility" of membership that allows the workers to get by with such abuse.

I think that it is the "fear" that whoever challenges the workers will also be the focus of the wrath of the workers if they do attempt to do anything about the situation.

Of the more than 20 people,  ,  including two workers, there    was  only one woman, an elders wife, who let me know that she had stood up for me.

I soon realized it was hopeless for me to attempt to have anyone acknowledge the truth about my situation.

It was that which  caused the most pain,-more that the situation its self -the realization that that was the way the whole *TRUTH* was set up.

 It wasn't an aberration from the normal,- it WAS the NORMAL.

[BobWilliston]

Dec 16, 2013 11:49:48 GMT -5 StAnne said:

Dec 15, 2013 23:16:49 GMT -5 BobWilliston said:

According to Paul, it was also okay for him to lie a little bit if it brought people to Christ!

Dec 16, 2013 0:16:22 GMT -5 déjà vu said:

you are right Bob , this is also true for Rahab and a few others

Jos 2:4 And the woman took the two men, and hid them, and said thus, There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were:

No. Quite the opposite. St Paul was speaking of a sinful man who might lie. Not himself.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

For if the truth of God,.... The "truth of God" is the same with "the righteousness of God", Romans 3:5, and means his faithfulness; of which it is hypothetically said, it
hath more abounded; or has been more illustrated,

through my lie to his glory: nothing is more opposite to truth than a lie; a lie of itself can never be of any advantage to truth, or to the God of truth; nothing is more contrary to the nature of God, and more abominable to him; a lie is of the devil, and punishable with eternal death; wherefore it may seem strange, that the truth of God should abound through it to his glory: now let it be observed, that the apostle is not speaking of himself, nor of his lie of unbelief, in his state of unregeneracy; but in the person of a sinful man, "for every man is a liar",
biblehub.com/romans/3-7.htm

May we not say, (as some falsely pretend St. Paul said) let us do evil things, that good things may come of them? The apostle answers in short both this objection, and the calumny against him. As to the first; that though men's sins give an occasion to God to shew his justice, and make known his divine perfections, yet this will not excuse them from being justly condemned, and punished, when God shall judge the wicked world; ...
haydock1859.tripod.com/id147.html

But those who profit from the lie (the converts) are not punished? Because they glorify god and believe.

So it is amazing that the lying preacher can still bring glory to God and salvation to converts. Sounds like a martyr's wish.

[minhthanh]

Dec 16, 2013 11:28:22 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Thank you again Minh Thanh.

The central problem seems that Darrel believed that the house was owned by Chau and then he seemed to think that Chau was going to give it to you for free. The former issue, that Chau owned the house, is probably the greatest problem in Darrel's mind.

Do you have any documentary (legal) proof that the house was owned by Chau's brother, Mr. Hiền, and not by Chau? If you don't have legal proof, do you have any correspondence from Chau or Mr. Hiền indicating that Mr. Hiền owned the house?

Darrel is really an astray driver, he forced uncle Chau to sell the house but he never knew who was the real owner.

There are four houses belong to Vu' family stand successively. As I had said, two family have had long relationship since the time in Protestant church. We came to these houses many times for singing... and seeing Mr Hien's children grow up.

After paying all the money, I had an email from Mr Hien send to me and The Vu’ family members saying. I copied and pasted that letter then I translated into English

From: hien rua [mailto:[e-mail]]

Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:44 PM

To: hoanthanh

Cc: Ngoc Chau; Samuel Nguyen; thuynga; vuthithuyhien; vuthithuyhien; vutrunghoa; Nha Doan Van Bo; Vinh Sinh Nguyen

Subject: Re: Cám ,n anh...

Hai em Hoàn Thanh,

Anh chị Vũ Trung Hiên xác nhận với hai em, và mọi người , rằng căn nhà 19 Cư Xá Trần Quang Diu, F.14, Q.3 này, kể từ hôm nay, hoàn toàn là của hai em.

Anh chị xin cám ơn Anh Vu Ngọc Châu, hai em Hoàn Thanh, và anh chị Thành-Hằng Nga đã giúp cho việc chuyển nhượng căn nhà này diễn ra rất êm đẹp.

Mến chúc hai em và các cháu luôn được vui vẻ, bình an, mạnh khỏe dưới mái ấm căn nhà đã từng ghi nhiều kỷ niệm của anh chị, hai cháu Hiên-Hòa và các tôi tớ Chúa.

Thân mến,

Vũ Trung Hiền & Thúy Nga



Dear Hoàn Thanh,

My wife and I Vũ Trung Hiền would like to confirm with Hoàn&Minh Thanh and everybody that the house at 19 CX Trần Quang Diệu, F.14, Q.3, from now on, belongs completely to both of you.

My wife and I thank to brother Vũ Ngọc Châu, Both Hoàn & Thanh, and brother and sister Thành-Hằng Nga has helped to the transfer of ownership of this house smoothly, beautifully.

We wish both of you and the children to be always joyful, peaceful, healthy under the cozy roof of this house which had impressed many memories of two of us, our children Hiền Hòa and the workers.

Love to you,

Vũ Trung Hiền & Thúy Nga

Now I am living between two uncle Châu niece' houses. (The Vu family)



We can't understand Darrel' work. He used his power to ask workers and friends doing things as he wanted. Didn't mind it reasonable or not !...

[minhthanh]

Dec 16, 2013 14:36:17 GMT -5 sunshine said:

Dec 16, 2013 14:26:58 GMT -5 edgarmassey said:

Chasing the 2x2 tail is a hopeless task Clearday --- They will always invent retroactive filth to spread to justify their ugly political expulsions -- This is the exact same tactic they used to get rid of Marg. Expell and then retroactively invent reasons why it was the only choice!!!

Here is that story!!!
www.anotherstep.net/summary/ConstructedFilth.htm

The extreme gullibility of membership lets them get away with it 99% of the time. And folks just turn a blind eye to the issues that can't be denied.

wow. interesting link. You should be able to visit whoever you want..didn't realize it was so territorial and discriminatory...

Under Darrel rule... We could not go to other fields to visit without the permission of the responsible worker of  that field. We also couldn't invite or ask advice of any other workers. Everything have to ask permission of the worker in the field first. Through them send the invitation to others (Of course with their witness too). We lose our freedom...
No... the law in my country give us freely to go... and free to invite anyone we want...

[fixit]

Dec 16, 2013 21:45:48 GMT -5 minhthanh said:

Under Darrel rule... We could not go to other fields to visit without the permission of the responsible worker of  that field. We also couldn't invite or ask advice of any other workers. Everything have to ask permission of the worker in the field first. Through them send the invitation to others (Of course with their witness too). We lose our freedom...
No... the law in my country give us freely to go... and free to invite anyone we want...

These controlling workers seem to have no idea how a fellowship of love operates, with the unity of the Spirit that results when individuals are Spirit-led rather than man-led.

Galatians 5:13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love.

14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”

15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh.

17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

[fixit]

This is how true shepherd-hearted servants of God behave towards their brothers and sisters in Christ (From: The Gate Seldom Found, by Raymond Reid):

Dear Ted and Bertha,

I received your letter a few days ago with great pleasure. I am glad that you and your family are healthy and that the others in the church are contented and happy in the way of life. You wrote about a serious decision that you would like me to make on your behalf. I am sorry to have to tell you that I cannot make such a decision for you or for anyone else in God's family. I will try to explain.

Most of us who have accepted this simple way of Christ have come from a traditional church background. In such a system, religious leaders are usually willing to make the type of decision you are looking for. In fact, over the centuries, some leaders not only made definite decisions but they exercised absolute control. The horrors of the Inquisition are a testimony of this!

Some of us have been called to lay aside the natural burdens of life in order to be free to follow God's leading to new areas of the harvest field. In this endeavour, we never want to develop a clergy mentality. Just because we have forfeited position and status, or because we accept no salary, or because we possess no formal religious education is not enough to prevent us from developing the authoritarian perspective of the high priest. That position was abolished when Christ became our high priest. And since He will never die, His priesthood is permanent and unchangeable. Jesus is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He is always interceding for them.

If we ever think we are able to make better choices for others, or that we have a superior vision for the future, or even that we have the ultimate responsibility for managing the church, we will have become modern day high priests. We will have expropriated the role of the Holy Spirit, who is abundantly available to each believer, and we will have usurped the place in the body belonging to Christ, and to Christ alone. Jesus' teaching was always invitational, never controlling. He drew people to Himself by His infinite love, never by a forced response. To attempt to do otherwise, is to lack faith in the power and ability of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus said to the crowd and to his disciples: You have only one Master, even Christ, and all of you are like brothers and sisters. None of you should be called the leader for One is your Leader, even Christ. Whoever is greatest should be the servant of the others. If you put yourself above others, you will be put down. But if you humble yourself you will be honoured. As a church, we must never stray from being an equal brotherhood of believers.

When an attitude of loving guidance shifts to one of control over others, it must be banished from the life of a servant of God. The willingness to control others' lives can creep up on us, luring and deceiving us into sincerely believing that we know best. It may start with the most noble of intentions, or by a straightforward request for help, but power is dangerous.

I mentioned loving guidance. Every saint or worker, whether settled in home life or itinerant, has a responsibility to provide safe counsel to his brother or sister. All Christians need the alert vigilant spirit of the Old Testament watchman on the city wall. Remember, that unless the Lord guards the city, the watchman stays awake in vain.

In my last letter I gave you the best advice I could. It would have been easier to be casual, and to gloss over a difficult situation than to be honest. However, real love dictates honest communication. Jesus was often very direct in His public preaching and private counsel.

If saints, settled in home life, become overly dependent on the itinerant ministry, they will fail to grow and mature as they should. Imagine parents who supply every need or request of their children, without any help by them. Eventually, such children grow up dependent, helpless and unable to function.

I can imagine situations developing where some saints would lack even the ability to give a simple account of their faith and could feel that only itinerant ministers are equipped to share the gospel message. How different this would be from God's good design where every plant produces seeds. Friends might eventually look to others for decisions on questions of doctrine when God's word and the Holy Spirit are abundantly available to each person. Like Jesus, we must all become more dependent on the Father, not on the ministry. The revelation of the Father is the final court of appeal for every one of His children.

For this reason I do not dare to make a binding decision for you. I know very few of the facts first-hand, and even less of the inner motives. And even if I knew all the pertinent details, about the things of which you write, I still am not the Head. Perhaps I am part of the lips, and if so, a feeble part at that. However, you are in fellowship with the Father who knows all things and who will give you guidance if you are sensitive to Him. I suggest you wait and pray earnestly for the answer, which will definitely come in His time. Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.'

In the meantime, I want to assure you that we love you deeply and will pray earnestly that God may reveal His holy will to you. We know that all things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to His purpose. In this way of love, you will grow strongest by learning to depend on the Father for every decision in life.

We will set aside a few days in the near future to come and visit before we start convention preparations at Wood Creek Farm. I'm sure you are looking forward to our time together there.

Wishing you the best in your daily walk with our Lord Jesus, I remain,

Your brother in Christ,

George

[Lee]

Dec 15, 2013 23:16:49 GMT -5 BobWilliston said:

Dec 4, 2013 20:34:21 GMT -5 déjà vu said:

I believe some F&W adhere to the principal of the " greater good. "
like “ if we save a soul it is permissible to lie to the authorities "

According to Paul, it was also okay for him to lie a little bit if it brought people to Christ!

They say the facts never lie but in the course of telling them sometimes The Truth (yes I mean to imply the incarnation of Jesus) goes untold. Say you're hiding Jews in the attic and the SS knocks on the door and asks you if you have any. If you say yes you're factually telling the truth. If you say no you're affirming the truth that people are worth more than pogroms.

[StAnne]

Dec 16, 2013 20:49:51 GMT -5 BobWilliston said:

Dec 16, 2013 11:49:48 GMT -5 StAnne said:

No. Quite the opposite. St Paul was speaking of a sinful man who might lie. Not himself.

But those who profit from the lie (the converts) are not punished? Because they glorify god and believe.

So it is amazing that the lying preacher can still bring glory to God and salvation to converts. Sounds like a martyr's wish.

I am still on posting break, and discussion, but as a courtesy to your question/comment this is my reply ...

The passage needs to be read as a whole and in context - the commentaries that come before and that follow the previous quotes are at the links.
St Paul was discussing works of the law ... the answer seems to be that all mankind is responsible before God and in need of grace from our Redeemer, our Lord and Savior.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

3:9-18 Here again is shown that all mankind are under the guilt of sin, as a burden; and under the government and dominion of sin, as enslaved to it, to work wickedness. This is made plain by several passages of Scripture from the Old Testament, which describe the corrupt and depraved state of all men, till grace restrain or change them.
biblehub.com/romans/3-7.htm 

Ver. 10. There is not any man just, viz. by virtue either of the law of nature, or of the law of Moses; but only by faith and grace. (Challoner)
haydock1859.tripod.com/id147.html 

[BobWilliston]

Dec 16, 2013 22:51:05 GMT -5 Lee said:

Dec 15, 2013 23:16:49 GMT -5 BobWilliston said:

According to Paul, it was also okay for him to lie a little bit if it brought people to Christ!

They say the facts never lie but in the course of telling them sometimes The Truth (yes I mean to imply the incarnation of Jesus) goes untold. Say you're hiding Jews in the attic and the SS knocks on the door and asks you if you have any. If you say yes you're factually telling the truth. If you say no you're affirming the truth that people are worth more than pogroms.

That's exactly why I refuse to buy the newspaper before noon. It reminds people that my mother doesn't have cancer yet.

[BobWilliston]

Dec 16, 2013 21:45:48 GMT -5 minhthanh said:

Dec 16, 2013 14:36:17 GMT -5 sunshine said:

wow. interesting link. You should be able to visit whoever you want..didn't realize it was so territorial and discriminatory...

Under Darrel rule... We could not go to other fields to visit without the permission of the responsible worker of  that field. We also couldn't invite or ask advice of any other workers. Everything have to ask permission of the worker in the field first. Through them send the invitation to others (Of course with their witness too). We lose our freedom...
No... the law in my country give us freely to go... and free to invite anyone we want...

Shameful, shameful.

They are treating you like stupid puppets who cannot be trusted out of their sight.

I would be tempted to inquire with legal authorities about their denial of your rights as citizens of Vietnam.

[BobWilliston]

Dec 16, 2013 22:56:09 GMT -5 StAnne said:

Dec 16, 2013 20:49:51 GMT -5 BobWilliston said:

But those who profit from the lie (the converts) are not punished? Because they glorify god and believe.

So it is amazing that the lying preacher can still bring glory to God and salvation to converts. Sounds like a martyr's wish.

I am still on posting break, and discussion, but as a courtesy to your question/comment this is my reply ...

The passage needs to be read as a whole and in context - the commentaries that come before and that follow the previous quotes are at the links.
St Paul was discussing works of the law ... the answer seems to be that all mankind is responsible before God and in need of grace from our Redeemer, our Lord and Savior.

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

3:9-18 Here again is shown that all mankind are under the guilt of sin, as a burden; and under the government and dominion of sin, as enslaved to it, to work wickedness. This is made plain by several passages of Scripture from the Old Testament, which describe the corrupt and depraved state of all men, till grace restrain or change them.
biblehub.com/romans/3-7.htm 

Ver. 10. There is not any man just, viz. by virtue either of the law of nature, or of the law of Moses; but only by faith and grace. (Challoner)
haydock1859.tripod.com/id147.html 

All I was trying to point out is that, according to this passage, it doesn't matter what punishment gets meted out on the one who delivers salvation by an inappropriate method -- the one saved has no negative consequence.

Grounds for forced conversion. It's a grasp at something positive to say for the Roman church through history.

[Lee]

Dec 16, 2013 22:58:44 GMT -5 BobWilliston said:

Dec 16, 2013 22:51:05 GMT -5 Lee said:

They say the facts never lie but in the course of telling them sometimes The Truth (yes I mean to imply the incarnation of Jesus) goes untold. Say you're hiding Jews in the attic and the SS knocks on the door and asks you if you have any. If you say yes you're factually telling the truth. If you say no you're affirming the truth that people are worth more than pogroms.

That's exactly why I refuse to buy the newspaper before noon. It reminds people that my mother doesn't have cancer yet.

Whatever. Must be nice to make your living by teaching rather than doing.

[BobWilliston]

Dec 16, 2013 23:15:44 GMT -5 Lee said:

Dec 16, 2013 22:58:44 GMT -5 BobWilliston said:

That's exactly why I refuse to buy the newspaper before noon. It reminds people that my mother doesn't have cancer yet.

Whatever. Must be nice to make your living by teaching rather than doing.

Telling comment!

[Lee]

Oh yeah, what would you do in my scenario, lie or tell the truth or create a diversion?

[BobWilliston]

Dec 16, 2013 23:33:52 GMT -5 Lee said:

Oh yeah, what would you do in my scenario, lie or tell the truth or create a diversion?

I would definitely consult a guru. I accept no personal responsibility for others' complexes.

[StAnne]

Dec 16, 2013 23:15:09 GMT -5 BobWilliston said:

All I was trying to point out is that, according to this passage, it doesn't matter what punishment gets meted out on the one who delivers salvation by an inappropriate method -- the one saved has no negative consequence.

This is what it comes down to.
Each one will be responsible before God for good works; and for the bad.

[Lee]

Dec 16, 2013 23:15:09 GMT -5 BobWilliston said:

Grounds for forced conversion.

No, but what it does say is that if the fly in the ointment is humanity it does not mean that Christ is the fly.

[fixit]

Dec 16, 2013 23:08:33 GMT -5 BobWilliston said:

Dec 16, 2013 21:45:48 GMT -5 minhthanh said:

Under Darrel rule... We could not go to other fields to visit without the permission of the responsible worker of  that field. We also couldn't invite or ask advice of any other workers. Everything have to ask permission of the worker in the field first. Through them send the invitation to others (Of course with their witness too). We lose our freedom...
No... the law in my country give us freely to go... and free to invite anyone we want...

Shameful, shameful.

They are treating you like stupid puppets who cannot be trusted out of their sight.

I would be tempted to inquire with legal authorities about their denial of your rights as citizens of Vietnam.

I detest the label of "cult" for our fellowship.

However I do concede that "cult" is a fitting word to describe the behavior MT is reporting from controlling workers in Vietnam.

[déjà vu]

"I detest the label of "cult" for our fellowship"


But sometimes it seems as if the ministry has some cult like characteristics

[lazarus66]

Lee, I thought your comment to Bob, re: Teaching, was uncalled for and a low blow.
What do we do without teachers. I am educated and glad for those that took the time to become educated, in order to educate me.