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Vietnam
Dec 12, 2013 15:35:52 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2013 15:35:52 GMT -5
The likely process that is going on in Hong Kong right now is that Darrel, Colin and Morris are insisting to Hoa and Chau that they must do things the foreign way in order to keep the "unity". They will be expecting Chau and Hoa to go back to VN and tell people that they are in agreement with the three Canadians. Those three men are most likely unable to resolve the problems, but a few prayers for a miracle wouldn't hurt anything. Are Chau and Hoa there in Singapore? Chau's name is not on the list to speak, although most of the younger Vietnamese workers are. Sorry, I was jumping to the conclusion that Chau is there based only on your information. It is probably a worse situation if most of the VN workers are there but not Chau if the occasion is being used to separate the VN workers from Chau. In either case, I will remain highly skeptical that there is serious work going on to repair these splits (which can't be done without Chau's presence anyway) until I see something that indicates the Canadians are aware that they are in error. Knowing all three to varying degrees, I doubt that there is any awareness of error on their own parts. One of the three has been quoted as saying about a decade ago "This ministry will never admit to an error." This came to me directly from the person to whom it was said. |
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Vietnam
Dec 12, 2013 15:40:22 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2013 15:40:22 GMT -5
The likely process that is going on in Hong Kong right now is that Darrel, Colin and Morris are insisting to Hoa and Chau that they must do things the foreign way in order to keep the "unity". They will be expecting Chau and Hoa to go back to VN and tell people that they are in agreement with the three Canadians. Workers speak of "unity", "order", "fitting in", "co-operating with", etc and it all amounts to the acceptance of the "descending order of authority" doctrine. This is what the "gospel" has become. It's no longer about accepting Jesus Christ and following the leading of the Spirit. It now about accepting the ministry and coming under its descending order of authority. The key to resolving the man-made problems is to get back to the basics of what Jesus actually taught. Yes, Singapore, sorry. |
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Vietnam
Dec 12, 2013 16:08:38 GMT -5
Post by Christopher J. on Dec 12, 2013 16:08:38 GMT -5
Are Chau and Hoa there in Singapore? Chau's name is not on the list to speak, although most of the younger Vietnamese workers are. Sorry, I was jumping to the conclusion that Chau is there based only on your information. It is probably a worse situation if most of the VN workers are there but not Chau if the occasion is being used to separate the VN workers from Chau. In either case, I will remain highly skeptical that there is serious work going on to repair these splits (which can't be done without Chau's presence anyway) until I see something that indicates the Canadians are aware that they are in error. Knowing all three to varying degrees, I doubt that there is any awareness of error on their own parts. One of the three has been quoted as saying about a decade ago "This ministry will never admit to an error." This came to me directly from the person to whom it was said. I am likewise jumping to conclusions that since Chau has spent the last while in Australia, he is still in Australian conventions, which don't end for a few more weeks. But I have no inside knowledge, and only saw the Singapore speaking list when it appeared in my inbox last night. |
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Vietnam
Dec 12, 2013 17:10:14 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Dec 12, 2013 17:10:14 GMT -5
I will remain highly skeptical that there is serious work going on to repair these splits (which can't be done without Chau's presence anyway) until I see something that indicates the Canadians are aware that they are in error. The foreign workers care more about their position of authority than they do about lost souls - or the 100+ friends in Vietnam who long for the "golden" times. They remind me more of the chief priests and the Pharisees who put a greater value on their place of authority, than fellowship with Jesus and those who were with him. |
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Vietnam
Dec 12, 2013 18:32:04 GMT -5
Post by Sylvestra on Dec 12, 2013 18:32:04 GMT -5
The likely process that is going on in Hong Kong Singapore right now is that Darrel, Colin and Morris are insisting to Hoa and Chau that they must do things the foreign way in order to keep the "unity". They will be expecting Chau and Hoa to go back to VN and tell people that they are in agreement with the three Canadians. Those three men are most likely unable to resolve the problems, but a few prayers for a miracle wouldn't hurt anything. Then, Clearday, I pray today to our Heavenly Father for a miracle to resolve these problems in VN, in Jesus name. May the heavenly court settle the issues. |
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Vietnam
Dec 12, 2013 21:55:23 GMT -5
Post by holdmyhand on Dec 12, 2013 21:55:23 GMT -5
The foreigners workers can stay in VN but they must be under the guidance of Chau and Hoa leadership as they were registered to the gov't in VN ... Fred Allen had wanted Chau and Hoa to be in charge in VN after 1975. It was a BIG mistake when they put the foreigners in charge in VN a few years ago! Creating a lot of problems, envy, Jealousy because it divided and the workers and friends loyalty, trust. The transition of Darrel T. leadership didn't go very smoothly. He wanted others to look to him as the NEW leader. Anyone who disagrees with him and his policy were in hot water, workers were sent back to their countries, the friends to be excommunicated from the main group when they tried to reasons with him.
Too bad, the foreigners workers had taken the reign too soon. They should have let Chau and Hoa continue being the leaders like they had done before, a marvelous job for 40 yrs. When Chau and Hoa were no longer able to be in charge for the work, just a few more years, then the foreigners should step in to take the lead.... This transition is much better for everyone to accept and follow.
Let Chau, Hoa and the native workers, elders, and the friends work it out to solve these different issues like they DID in the past... It will not be easy! too many hard feelings have been created the last 3 yrs but can be done. They have been through tough times! and golden years together.
I DON’T understand why foreign workers need to be there at all The local workers were doing a good job, following the NT teachings closer than any western country is doing. When the Canadians moved in, they brought with them another gospel, their teachings are corrupted with men’s ideas and their actions are contrary to Jesus example. They could learn from the VN friends and workers, how to operate a ministry by the leading of the Holy Spirit, but unfortunately the leadership has become blind and arrogant, intent on creating divisions and pain to all who reject their ungodly demands Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Gal 1:9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Gal 1:10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ. Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ. |
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Vietnam
Dec 12, 2013 23:52:49 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Dec 12, 2013 23:52:49 GMT -5
A few yrs back, the Canadians senior workers decided to put their own people to be in charge/overseer the gospel work in VN.... They ran into culture, personalities clashes, new changes on how to do thing from NOW on with the native workers Chau, Hoa and the golden time friends. I don't understand how the Canadians came to be so far out of their place. Dale Shultz wrote in a letter to Edgar: Did Chau and Hoa invite the Canadians into their field of Vietnam? How did the Canadians come to think they had a right to divide the church and expel Hoa and Chau? Is the Vietnam mess simply an extension of the mess in western Canada? |
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Vietnam
Dec 13, 2013 0:04:45 GMT -5
Post by Sylvestra on Dec 13, 2013 0:04:45 GMT -5
To holdmyhand: Well, Fred A. an Australian, his nephew, and others from his country brought the gospel to VN in 1957 so, the foreigners were in charge running the operation and calling all the shots. Just like the 12/70 apostles, and Paul making decisions, planning, teaching the church doctrines when they brought the gospel to many different gentiles countries... After these early apostles had died they handle the leadership to other Gentile apostles to carry on. After 1975, Fred Allen, and all foreigners had to leave VN. Chau could have gone to USA with his family, but decided to Stay and carry on the gospel with Hoa, caring/feeding the lambs, and sheep in VN for 40 yrs. Both of Chau, Hoa, and the hearty friends/golden friends did a fantastic in sharing the gospel stories.
Chau and Hoa are a good team! Chau is like the mother hen, gentle, kind spirit. Hoa, is liken unto the Father figures, loveable, and stern. They called all the shots! they had little of foreigners influence in making any decision how to run things in VN.
A few yrs back, the Canadians senior workers decided to put their own people to be in charge/overseer the gospel work in VN.... They ran into culture, personalities clashes, new changes on how to do thing from NOW on with the native workers Chau, Hoa and the golden time friends. The changes came to soon, and too fast! for them to digest what was going on.
The golden friends and the native workers didn't have the politics! to deal with for 40 yrs. They just share the good news, caring, feeding the sheep of God during those difficult yrs. with all their hearts, minds, and souls.... Like ONE big family! All work together to built up the household of God.
The Canadians want VN friends and workers to conform, just like the rest of the friends and workers around the world.... VN is different... It's a communist country! You have to tread lightly. Don't make moves too suddenly or too fast. Let the Spirit does the leading! and guiding... Don't make the VN friends to become Americans or Canadians with outward appearances .... but Christians! Christ in Us.
... This is just my understanding from hearing about Chau and Hoa for yrs. from different VN friends. Finally, I met Chau in person 2007 Oregon, USA. He is very kind, easy going, down to earth person.
Nathan, you have beautifully expressed what I also understand about this situation. I think mainly the Canadian workers had NO real reason to inject themselves into VN beyond making the VN friends conform to "their man-made traditions", which the friends in VN had been spared from until the foreigners arrived! The best way to fix it, IMO, is for them to reverse their actions and go back to Canada until the folks in VN ask for them to come again! |
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Vietnam
Dec 13, 2013 0:32:11 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Dec 13, 2013 0:32:11 GMT -5
MT, it saddens me to know that you will never be allowed to return to that fellowship by continuing to post here,
On my own opinion… I never want to be allowed into the fellowship not being led by The Spirit of God again. God had shown me His love & His care upon me. We just look at Jesus and hold His hand to step forward until the end of my life. At the day Lyle S came to my father house for reading his letter, to let us know that Uncle Hoa doesn’t have any part…in the work of God in VN. My father said to him “That’s you say, God never says like that…” Seeing my father disagree with his letter he said: “I can’t not take care of you any more…” (Mr.Bau) my father replied “God will take care of us”.
While uncle Lyle went out of my parents’ house, my mother pulled his shirt. “Please, send Chau back to us, we need him…I beg you” My mother 81 years old and a little confuse, she appreciated uncle Chau and missed him. What a sad picture !... isn’t it? A few days latter… An email came to my inbox, from my relative living in Australia with this links www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLPp4gXUY3oIt comforts our heart for knowing that God listened our pray and answered immediately for us as much as God has promised to Joshua "so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you."Recently, God had proved His promises to us very clearly when we went to Australia. Even our worker (uncle Chau afraid to contact with us). I had very worried with that trip… But day by day God had revealed to me that He knew our very tiny needs, and met our needs. His care was beyond our immage. We do thanks Thee.
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Vietnam
Dec 13, 2013 2:05:26 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Dec 13, 2013 2:05:26 GMT -5
This morning I said to my husband I’m going to tell “two elder meetings…” bringing pain to our heart. Immediately my husband sent me a copy of friends letter. He translated into English. (He sat more than a meter far from me). So it’s better send you all… for I can relax….  . * Gathering all the workers and elders for declare Darrel' rule "Who want to borrow money... go to the bank !..." Part I - 7 * Call all again... asked doctor Trung gave the speech... Part I : 9 + 10. Following is the letter.To the Workers
We, God’s children belonging to churches scattered in the country of Vietnam, unanimously have the same voice to God’s Workers about God’s Work in Vietnam.
First of all we want to show our gratitude to God’s workers for spending their life to labour for God, especially those who have left their prosperous countries to come to Vietnam.
Recent years, we have seen and heard some things from brother Darrel (overseer) and other workers. We would mention them below. We wish our workers to answer us in order that we can understand clearly, we are very grateful.
Part I – THE THINGS WE WANT TO ASK
1. Studying the Bible everyday. Beforehand we were taught by brothers Châu and Hoa that the first thing we need to do when getting up every morning is praying, meditating. After that, according to individual family, all the family members gather together in appropriate time ( early morning is the best) and study the Bible.
But now brother Darrel said: ”No studying together, studying by individual”. We want to ask: Is it true?
2. Taking notes in the meetings.
Some friends attending conventions or special meetings, they jot down the thoughts shared by God’s workers. Later on they correct the notes and copy them and give them to any friends if they ask.
But brother Darrel said: ”No taking notes.”
Is it right?
3. Telling God’s word
We live in the world, sometimes someone asks us about God. Previously in our humble place, we tell them about God and at last we introduce them to meet the Workers.
But now, brother Darrel says: “we live among the people, if someone asks about God, God’s children are only permitted to tell them the reason why we follow God. We have to wait for God’s workers coming to tell them God’s word.” Is it true?
4. The Breaking of Bread
a)- We have read in the Old Testament and New Testament . Jesus established the Breaking of Bread in the evening. Is there any relation with the fact that God created the world in 6 days in Genesis. When finishing God said:”…and there was evening and there was morning, one day…”
So, we wonder if the evening exists before the morning or not. Please explain it to us and explain us more why we have to have meeting in the morning?
b)- Previously every church discusses and chooses the best time to have gathering.
But now brother Darrel said: ”The fellowship meeting is at 9 o’clock AM”
Now we want to change the time appropriately according to each church, is it alright?
5. Wedding.
a).The Bible says “giving wife and taking husband”. It shows that the parents manage to organise the wedding, taking husband to their daughter. As parents, we have the right to invite any guests accordingly. But brother Darrel says: ” we should only invtite the two churches and the guests close to the bride and the bridegroom. No parents’ guests.” Is it true to the rule ?
b). about the MC (Master of Ceremony) of the wedding, brother Darrel says: ”we should ask a young friend to be an MC, not old one.”
We want to ask: “the young friend, from what age to what age is young ?”
We don’t understand the purpose of this idea, why???
6. The funeral.
When one of our friends passes away, we want to take pictures in the funeral to send them to relatives (not professing) living in other countries or remote places who cannot attend the funeral.
But brother Darrel says: ”No taking pictures in the funeral.”
How do we manage?
7. Borrowing money
Brother Darrel recommends: ”when someone loans an amount of money to other, the loaner considers it as giving it. And someone wants to borrow an amount of money, he must go to the bank to borrow.” Brother Darrel wanted to advise God’s people not to loan money to each other. But in our country, someone wants to borrow money at the bank, they have to mortgage their house or their field. And some of them don’t own anything. How can we manage?
8. Helping each other in material things
In the Bible we have read that some Churches raised money to help other churches in adversity. In recent years we have never heard the workers encourage God’s people to help each other in material things. On the contrary some workers didnn’t permit us to help each other in material things.
Among God’s people,there are still some very difficult families. The workers don’t want them to borrow money, to help in material things, they don’t encourage either.
We want the workers to let us know more how to behave when we want to help each other in physical, material things?
9. Praying asking God to drive away demons.
There was a family. A member in the family one day suddenly her health declined and always talked nonsense. Sometimes she affected the meeting.
Although she was treated by doctors, her illness was not healed. With these signs, we thought she was possessed by a demon. One time we asked brother Châu and the friends gathered at that place to pray: “May God have mercy on this woman…”
After some occasions of praying, this one got better, was conscious again and became normal. We thought God accepted our prayers.
After that she decided to follow Jesus and she has been faithful so far.
Since then her parents and relatives saw the power of God and wanted to follow Jesus, too.
We want to ask the workers : our prayers: “May God have mercy on this woman and drive the demon away from her”. Is there any thing wrong?
Brother Darrel said: “It’s not right.”
10. Inviting a person to analyse a scientific fact in a gathering.
Brother Trung is a godly friend. We honored his faith– his word –his deed. He has helped all of us. His profession is a medical doctor, dedicated to studying sciences.
On an occasion, there was a gathering with all workers and elders, brother Darrel asked doctor Trung to have a speech on analyzing a scientific phenomena purely without mentioning the faith!...
We want to know, in a gathering of people with faith, inviting a person to talk about science with what a purpose, we don’t understand.
11. The so-called Elder.
In the protestant, they use these words Teacher, Pastor, Bishop, Elder, Deacon, Saint, Believer….to name the position in their religion.
But we use: Way of God instead of Protestant.
God’s children instead of Believer, Saint.
The person who is in charge at a church, and leading a meeting is called Elder. It is the same word in Protestant. Do we need to have another name to replace?
12. A model form to declare to the Authorities
When we have a gathering, the authorities can knock at the door at any time and question us about that gathering. We need to have some entries that are unified throughout the country to fill the form:
For example:- Who is the head?
- The name of religion?
- Method of working..?
13. The Person Substitute
Previously, every God’s child is prepared to answer the authorities that brother Hoa and brother Châu are in charge. Their address is at 19 cx Trần Quang Diệu- Ward 14 -Distr 3 -Saigon.
But now they are not in the work, they don’t have a stable address as usual.
We want to know which workers substitute the two brothers now not in the work anymore to be in legal charge with the Authorities, their address, their lodging in order we can answer the same to the Authorities at any time they ask.
14. Why we have two words.
Once the Authorities asked every citizen to declare their religion.
The workers asked Hải Trân to send message to God’s people stating that : “We follow God, gather at home.” If they don’t accept we can declare that we are Protestants.
We want to know why we must have two words
15. The Promise
In the last page of our hymn book: “after 2 years there will be a new version”. But now 5 years has passed, the workers don’t have a word about this.
16. Composing Hymns
Besides the hymn book using in the meeting, we have other hymns from USA, Canada, India, Korea…the workers and God’s people in other countries can compose hymns, so can workers and God’ people in Vietnam compose hymn? especially in Vietnam, there are 5 hymns dedicated to the wedding being used for many years previously. (One hymn from Uncle Fred and translated by brother Châu, the rest are composed by brother Bau in lyric part.)
We want to ask: in our family’s wedding, if we want to sing one of these songs, is it alright as we used to sing in the previous years?
17. Baptizm.
In the past, in order to prepare for an occasion of baptizm, the workers usually speak clearly about the meaning and purpose of baptizm especially for those who were ready for baptizm. After that those who were ready, they would stand up to manifest their willingness and the workers baptize them without differentiating young or old, how long in God’s way.
But now the workers ask those who will be baptized that they must reach 14 years old and following God after a length of time.
We want to know if that stipulation is right?
Part II.
We are sheep which always watch and follow the examples of the shepherds.
“the shepherd goes ahead and the sheep just follow him.”
Following are those that we have seen:
1. There are very poor families among God’s people. Yet, some workers use expensive motorbikes
2. Some workers gave unclear information and caused our friends to suspect one another, dividing into factions in the church.
Example: saying that brother Mike couldn’t renew his visa because there had been someone who secretely reported him to the police!...but we haven’t heard exactly who had done it!...
3. When God’s people encounter spiritual problems, the workers of the field didn’t ask them directly the cause to help them. They only decided: “He or She is forbidden to pray and to share in the meetings. And he or she should go to Gospel meetings to start his or her work of faith again.” Some of them were really hurt and since then they left God’s House!...
4. There is an old professing lady, living far from the place of meetings. In previous years she tried to go to the meetings although she was ill. But now her health declines, she cannot go to the meetings.
She said: “more than 4 years I have lived here, not a worker has come here to visit me, except brother Châu who from time to time sends me a text message to encourage me….
that lady is sister Nga, now she moves to Long Khánh town-Đồng Nai Province.
5. Formerly, whenever one of God’s people passed away, the workers spared about 20-30 minutes for God’s people who are standing around the coffin to say a few words about the life of our deceased friend to comfort and encourage one another.
We find this in the book Apostle, chapter 9, verses 36-39.
In recent funerals, we haven’t seen this anymore!...
6. We long that the workers of the field, coming to the house of God’s people, they should bring the Gospel and peace. Please don’t bring bad stories of others to tell us, even a little one. And also, please don’t ask questions to make us confused, doubtful and puzzled.
7. In order not to make God’s people fear and worry or make them tell lies to the authorities, we propose that foreign workers should stay at the hotel at night and limit their walking outside at daytime, especially in rural areas.
8. In order to have a godly atmosphere in the meetings. We suggest that all should stand up when praying or sharing.
9. There is a meeting for young people yearly. We don’t find any meeting for middle-aged or the old ones!...
why is there the differentiating between the old and the young?
10. Finally, we hope that the workers will be an example to us and teach us to obey God’s word as in the Bible and please don’t interfere in the private affairs of our family.
Part III
Hearing and seeing good things we cannot mention all, we only mention a few things we have seen and heard, but we don’t understand clearly.
So we wish the workers to answer clearly to each one of God’s people.
Which is right and which is wrong? And which things the workers need to tell again to be true?
We are very grateful.
Love in Jesus Christ
Some God’s people in Vietnam
(More than a dozen elder & old friends, some still in their fellowship). |
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Vietnam
Dec 13, 2013 4:09:48 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Dec 13, 2013 4:09:48 GMT -5
Thanks for sharing MT.
It looks like "divide and rule" politics at play.
Believers who try to lord it over other believers are out of touch with the spirit of Christ.
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Vietnam
Dec 13, 2013 4:19:29 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2013 4:19:29 GMT -5
Another wonderfully written account of 2x2 developments in Vietnamn (the link is temporarily closed for further editing)
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Vietnam
Dec 13, 2013 5:46:45 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2013 5:46:45 GMT -5
MT, it saddens me to know that you will never be allowed to return to that fellowship by continuing to post here,
On my own opinion… I never want to be allowed into the fellowship not being led by The Spirit of God again. God had shown me His love & His care upon me. We just look at Jesus and hold His hand to step forward until the end of my life. At the day Lyle S came to my father house for reading his letter, to let us know that Uncle Hoa doesn’t have any part…in the work of God in VN. My father said to him “That’s you say, God never says like that…” Seeing y father disagree with his letter he said: “I can’t not take care of you any more…” (Mr.Bau) my father replied “God will take care of us”.
While uncle Lyle went out of my parents’ house, my mother pulled his shirt. “Please, send Chau back to us, we need him…I beg you” My mother 81 years old and a little confuse, she appreciated uncle Chau and missed him. What a sad picture !... isn’t it? A few days latter… An email came to my inbox, from my relative living in Australia with this links www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLPp4gXUY3oIt comforts our heart for knowing that God listened our pray and answered immediately for us as much as God has promised to Joshua "so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you."Recently, God had proved His promises to us very clearly when we went to Australia. Even our worker (uncle Chau afraid to contact with us). I had very worried with that trip… But day by day God had revealed to me that He knew our very tiny needs, and met our needs. His care was beyond our immage. We do thanks Thee.
This, for many of us, proves they (the authoritarians among them) simply do not understand The Christ IS the "way" and not any system produced by man as a substitute, as done over and over since our Lord walked on this earth. You know who will take care of you, as you launch out into the future, and many of us are accompanying you. Please remember how welcome you are to come stay, even live with us sharing what meager amount we have.
Yes, that child is a gifted singer.
In a greater love,
Dennis (and Kathleen) in the USA. |
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Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2013 11:31:12 GMT -5
This morning I said to my husband I’m going to tell “two elder meetings…” bringing pain to our heart. Immediately my husband sent me a copy of friends letter. He translated into English. (He sat more than a meter far from me). So it’s better send you all… for I can relax…. . * Gathering all the workers and elders for declare Darrel' rule "Who want to borrow money... go to the bank !..." Part I - 7 * Call all again... asked doctor Trung gave the speech... Part I : 9 + 10. Following is the letter.To the Workers
We, God’s children belonging to churches scattered in the country of Vietnam, unanimously have the same voice to God’s Workers about God’s Work in Vietnam.
First of all we want to show our gratitude to God’s workers for spending their life to labour for God, especially those who have left their prosperous countries to come to Vietnam.
Recent years, we have seen and heard some things from brother Darrel (overseer) and other workers. We would mention them below. We wish our workers to answer us in order that we can understand clearly, we are very grateful.
Part I – THE THINGS WE WANT TO ASK
1. Studying the Bible everyday. Beforehand we were taught by brothers Châu and Hoa that the first thing we need to do when getting up every morning is praying, meditating. After that, according to individual family, all the family members gather together in appropriate time ( early morning is the best) and study the Bible.
But now brother Darrel said: ”No studying together, studying by individual”. We want to ask: Is it true?
2. Taking notes in the meetings.
Some friends attending conventions or special meetings, they jot down the thoughts shared by God’s workers. Later on they correct the notes and copy them and give them to any friends if they ask.
But brother Darrel said: ”No taking notes.”
Is it right?
3. Telling God’s word
We live in the world, sometimes someone asks us about God. Previously in our humble place, we tell them about God and at last we introduce them to meet the Workers.
But now, brother Darrel says: “we live among the people, if someone asks about God, God’s children are only permitted to tell them the reason why we follow God. We have to wait for God’s workers coming to tell them God’s word.” Is it true?
4. The Breaking of Bread
a)- We have read in the Old Testament and New Testament . Jesus established the Breaking of Bread in the evening. Is there any relation with the fact that God created the world in 6 days in Genesis. When finishing God said:”…and there was evening and there was morning, one day…”
So, we wonder if the evening exists before the morning or not. Please explain it to us and explain us more why we have to have meeting in the morning?
b)- Previously every church discusses and chooses the best time to have gathering.
But now brother Darrel said: ”The fellowship meeting is at 9 o’clock AM”
Now we want to change the time appropriately according to each church, is it alright?
5. Wedding.
a).The Bible says “giving wife and taking husband”. It shows that the parents manage to organise the wedding, taking husband to their daughter. As parents, we have the right to invite any guests accordingly. But brother Darrel says: ” we should only invtite the two churches and the guests close to the bride and the bridegroom. No parents’ guests.” Is it true to the rule ?
b). about the MC (Master of Ceremony) of the wedding, brother Darrel says: ”we should ask a young friend to be an MC, not old one.”
We want to ask: “the young friend, from what age to what age is young ?”
We don’t understand the purpose of this idea, why???
6. The funeral.
When one of our friends passes away, we want to take pictures in the funeral to send them to relatives (not professing) living in other countries or remote places who cannot attend the funeral.
But brother Darrel says: ”No taking pictures in the funeral.”
How do we manage?
7. Borrowing money
Brother Darrel recommends: ”when someone loans an amount of money to other, the loaner considers it as giving it. And someone wants to borrow an amount of money, he must go to the bank to borrow.” Brother Darrel wanted to advise God’s people not to loan money to each other. But in our country, someone wants to borrow money at the bank, they have to mortgage their house or their field. And some of them don’t own anything. How can we manage?
8. Helping each other in material things
In the Bible we have read that some Churches raised money to help other churches in adversity. In recent years we have never heard the workers encourage God’s people to help each other in material things. On the contrary some workers didnn’t permit us to help each other in material things.
Among God’s people,there are still some very difficult families. The workers don’t want them to borrow money, to help in material things, they don’t encourage either.
We want the workers to let us know more how to behave when we want to help each other in physical, material things?
9. Praying asking God to drive away demons.
There was a family. A member in the family one day suddenly her health declined and always talked nonsense. Sometimes she affected the meeting.
Although she was treated by doctors, her illness was not healed. With these signs, we thought she was possessed by a demon. One time we asked brother Châu and the friends gathered at that place to pray: “May God have mercy on this woman…”
After some occasions of praying, this one got better, was conscious again and became normal. We thought God accepted our prayers.
After that she decided to follow Jesus and she has been faithful so far.
Since then her parents and relatives saw the power of God and wanted to follow Jesus, too.
We want to ask the workers : our prayers: “May God have mercy on this woman and drive the demon away from her”. Is there any thing wrong?
Brother Darrel said: “It’s not right.”
10. Inviting a person to analyse a scientific fact in a gathering.
Brother Trung is a godly friend. We honored his faith– his word –his deed. He has helped all of us. His profession is a medical doctor, dedicated to studying sciences.
On an occasion, there was a gathering with all workers and elders, brother Darrel asked doctor Trung to have a speech on analyzing a scientific phenomena purely without mentioning the faith!...
We want to know, in a gathering of people with faith, inviting a person to talk about science with what a purpose, we don’t understand.
11. The so-called Elder.
In the protestant, they use these words Teacher, Pastor, Bishop, Elder, Deacon, Saint, Believer….to name the position in their religion.
But we use: Way of God instead of Protestant.
God’s children instead of Believer, Saint.
The person who is in charge at a church, and leading a meeting is called Elder. It is the same word in Protestant. Do we need to have another name to replace?
12. A model form to declare to the Authorities
When we have a gathering, the authorities can knock at the door at any time and question us about that gathering. We need to have some entries that are unified throughout the country to fill the form:
For example:- Who is the head?
- The name of religion?
- Method of working..?
13. The Person Substitute
Previously, every God’s child is prepared to answer the authorities that brother Hoa and brother Châu are in charge. Their address is at 19 cx Trần Quang Diệu- Ward 14 -Distr 3 -Saigon.
But now they are not in the work, they don’t have a stable address as usual.
We want to know which workers substitute the two brothers now not in the work anymore to be in legal charge with the Authorities, their address, their lodging in order we can answer the same to the Authorities at any time they ask.
14. Why we have two words.
Once the Authorities asked every citizen to declare their religion.
The workers asked Hải Trân to send message to God’s people stating that : “We follow God, gather at home.” If they don’t accept we can declare that we are Protestants.
We want to know why we must have two words
15. The Promise
In the last page of our hymn book: “after 2 years there will be a new version”. But now 5 years has passed, the workers don’t have a word about this.
16. Composing Hymns
Besides the hymn book using in the meeting, we have other hymns from USA, Canada, India, Korea…the workers and God’s people in other countries can compose hymns, so can workers and God’ people in Vietnam compose hymn? especially in Vietnam, there are 5 hymns dedicated to the wedding being used for many years previously. (One hymn from Uncle Fred and translated by brother Châu, the rest are composed by brother Bau in lyric part.)
We want to ask: in our family’s wedding, if we want to sing one of these songs, is it alright as we used to sing in the previous years?
17. Baptizm.
In the past, in order to prepare for an occasion of baptizm, the workers usually speak clearly about the meaning and purpose of baptizm especially for those who were ready for baptizm. After that those who were ready, they would stand up to manifest their willingness and the workers baptize them without differentiating young or old, how long in God’s way.
But now the workers ask those who will be baptized that they must reach 14 years old and following God after a length of time.
We want to know if that stipulation is right?
Part II.
We are sheep which always watch and follow the examples of the shepherds.
“the shepherd goes ahead and the sheep just follow him.”
Following are those that we have seen:
1. There are very poor families among God’s people. Yet, some workers use expensive motorbikes
2. Some workers gave unclear information and caused our friends to suspect one another, dividing into factions in the church.
Example: saying that brother Mike couldn’t renew his visa because there had been someone who secretely reported him to the police!...but we haven’t heard exactly who had done it!...
3. When God’s people encounter spiritual problems, the workers of the field didn’t ask them directly the cause to help them. They only decided: “He or She is forbidden to pray and to share in the meetings. And he or she should go to Gospel meetings to start his or her work of faith again.” Some of them were really hurt and since then they left God’s House!...
4. There is an old professing lady, living far from the place of meetings. In previous years she tried to go to the meetings although she was ill. But now her health declines, she cannot go to the meetings.
She said: “more than 4 years I have lived here, not a worker has come here to visit me, except brother Châu who from time to time sends me a text message to encourage me….
that lady is sister Nga, now she moves to Long Khánh town-Đồng Nai Province.
5. Formerly, whenever one of God’s people passed away, the workers spared about 20-30 minutes for God’s people who are standing around the coffin to say a few words about the life of our deceased friend to comfort and encourage one another.
We find this in the book Apostle, chapter 9, verses 36-39.
In recent funerals, we haven’t seen this anymore!...
6. We long that the workers of the field, coming to the house of God’s people, they should bring the Gospel and peace. Please don’t bring bad stories of others to tell us, even a little one. And also, please don’t ask questions to make us confused, doubtful and puzzled.
7. In order not to make God’s people fear and worry or make them tell lies to the authorities, we propose that foreign workers should stay at the hotel at night and limit their walking outside at daytime, especially in rural areas.
8. In order to have a godly atmosphere in the meetings. We suggest that all should stand up when praying or sharing.
9. There is a meeting for young people yearly. We don’t find any meeting for middle-aged or the old ones!...
why is there the differentiating between the old and the young?
10. Finally, we hope that the workers will be an example to us and teach us to obey God’s word as in the Bible and please don’t interfere in the private affairs of our family.
Part III
Hearing and seeing good things we cannot mention all, we only mention a few things we have seen and heard, but we don’t understand clearly.
So we wish the workers to answer clearly to each one of God’s people.
Which is right and which is wrong? And which things the workers need to tell again to be true?
We are very grateful.
Love in Jesus Christ
Some God’s people in Vietnam
(More than a dozen elder & old friends, some still in their fellowship).Here is the problem with trying to resolve the above list: 1.Everything Darrel implemented, he believed it was the right thing to do. 2.Almost everything Darrel implemented would get the full support of his overseer (Dale Schultz) and almost all other workers overseas. The only exception I can see in the above is the ban on bible study with other family members. He wouldn't get much support for that. So here it is: Darrel, Colin, Morris, and Lyle think that they are solution for Vietnam. They do not, and cannot, see that they are the problem. The overseas workers who support them also see them as the solution for Vietnam, not the problem. They see the Golden Friends as the problem, not willing for correction and obeying the superior position of the overseas workers. These problems, under the current system of management, cannot be resolved for the above reasons. At best they can be smoothed over and the Golden Friends remain outside of the main body of friends. The only solution is for overseas workers to step down from overseership and either leave the country or work under the Vietnamese friends and workers as supporters, not overseers. The Vietnamese people will then resolve the issues themselves. |
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Vietnam
Dec 13, 2013 13:27:49 GMT -5
Post by fixit on Dec 13, 2013 13:27:49 GMT -5
This is not a Vietnam problem so much as a worldwide problem.
Controlling workers are survivors in a ruthless religious system and they rise to the top over time.
Meek and lowly Christlike workers are pushed out, leave in frustration, have their health broken, or somehow adapt to the system while trying to preserve their own integrity.
Our Vietnamese friends are a wonderful example of what Christ-centred friends and workers should be doing worldwide i.e.
Stop empowering unchristlike dominating types who promote their own kingdom and their own glory, proving by their actions they're not seeing the heavenly kingdom.
I will henceforth seek to live for Jesus;
Help me, Lord, a witness true to be.
May my daily walk and words and actions
Prove to all that Jesus lives in me.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2013 13:59:35 GMT -5
This is not a Vietnam problem so much as a worldwide problem. Controlling workers are survivors in a ruthless religious system and they rise to the top over time. Meek and lowly Christlike workers are pushed out, leave in frustration, have their health broken, or somehow adapt to the system while trying to preserve their own integrity. Our Vietnamese friends are a wonderful example of what Christ-centred friends and workers should be doing worldwide i.e. Stop empowering unchristlike dominating types who promote their own kingdom and their own glory, proving by their actions they're not seeing the heavenly kingdom. I will henceforth seek to live for Jesus;
Help me, Lord, a witness true to be.
May my daily walk and words and actions
Prove to all that Jesus lives in me.That is correct. Darrel, Colin, Dale, Lyle aren't bad people. However, they have a common controlling spirit which they believe is right and necessary to keep the 2x2 church right in their eyes. This is the reason why DaleS and Jack Price couldn't help the people of Alberta in spite of a huge number of appeals.....they also have the same controlling spirit. They couldn't come out against Willis for being the same way they are and believe in. There is something beautiful in the way our Vietnamese friends have recognized this so clearly and have taken a righteous stand. They need to know (and they already know I think) that this problem exists practically everywhere in the world to varying degrees. It is a stiff-necked haughty spirit that is behind these problems. |
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Dec 13, 2013 17:33:25 GMT -5
Post by quizzer on Dec 13, 2013 17:33:25 GMT -5
It's sad to see that the friends get to choose to follow the workers or the Holy Spirit.
...and I'll bet the workers are still wondering why the meetings are shrinking...
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 13, 2013 20:16:26 GMT -5
MT, it saddens me to know that you will never be allowed to return to that fellowship by continuing to post here,
On my own opinion… I never want to be allowed into the fellowship not being led by The Spirit of God again. God had shown me His love & His care upon me. We just look at Jesus and hold His hand to step forward until the end of my life. At the day Lyle S came to my father house for reading his letter, to let us know that Uncle Hoa doesn’t have any part…in the work of God in VN. My father said to him “That’s you say, God never says like that…” Seeing y father disagree with his letter he said: “I can’t not take care of you any more…” (Mr.Bau) my father replied “God will take care of us”.
While uncle Lyle went out of my parents’ house, my mother pulled his shirt. “Please, send Chau back to us, we need him…I beg you” My mother 81 years old and a little confuse, she appreciated uncle Chau and missed him. What a sad picture !... isn’t it? A few days latter… An email came to my inbox, from my relative living in Australia with this links www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLPp4gXUY3oIt comforts our heart for knowing that God listened our pray and answered immediately for us as much as God has promised to Joshua "so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you."Recently, God had proved His promises to us very clearly when we went to Australia. Even our worker (uncle Chau afraid to contact with us). I had very worried with that trip… But day by day God had revealed to me that He knew our very tiny needs, and met our needs. His care was beyond our immage. We do thanks Thee.
This, for many of us, proves they (the authoritarians among them) simply do not understand The Christ IS the "way" and not any system produced by man as a substitute, as done over and over since our Lord walked on this earth. You know who will take care of you, as you launch out into the future, and many of us are accompanying you. Please remember how welcome you are to come stay, even live with us sharing what meager amount we have.
Yes, that child is a gifted singer.
In a greater love,
Dennis (and Kathleen) in the USA. Dennis, I'd to like to echo your encouraging words to a hurting group of people....but at the same time I'd like to say all of this reminded me of what Jesus said. "Come take my yoke upon you. My yoke is easy and my burden is light."When authoritarian people start laying burdens of the harder side of life then we know that pain and despair follows nearly everytime. Also Jesus said this...."The truth shall set you free." Jesus was speaking particularly of the great burdens that our individual sins cause us as individuals....but it can also mean that Jesus' truth shall set us free of the yokes and burdens of those who have to overlord one another.....and THIS is exactly what Jesus said to His Apostles when John and James came with their mother to Jesus requiring that John would be sat down with Jesus on His throne on one side and James would be sat down on the other side of Jesus. This is what Jesus spoke to the Apostles about that He did not want this because THIS was what the Gentiles did to one another. And I suppose Jesus' thought was that the Gentiles had not learned as of yet, the price of love....and who would pay it....No one but Jesus himself....opening the way of salvation to all peoples across the face of the earth. |
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Post by holdmyhand on Dec 13, 2013 20:21:54 GMT -5
This is not a Vietnam problem so much as a worldwide problem. Controlling workers are survivors in a ruthless religious system and they rise to the top over time. Meek and lowly Christlike workers are pushed out, leave in frustration, have their health broken, or somehow adapt to the system while trying to preserve their own integrity. Our Vietnamese friends are a wonderful example of what Christ-centred friends and workers should be doing worldwide i.e. Stop empowering unchristlike dominating types who promote their own kingdom and their own glory, proving by their actions they're not seeing the heavenly kingdom. I will henceforth seek to live for Jesus;
Help me, Lord, a witness true to be.
May my daily walk and words and actions
Prove to all that Jesus lives in me.That is correct. Darrel, Colin, Dale, Lyle aren't bad people. However, they have a common controlling spirit which they believe is right and necessary to keep the 2x2 church right in their eyes. This is the reason why DaleS and Jack Price couldn't help the people of Alberta in spite of a huge number of appeals.....they also have the same controlling spirit. They couldn't come out against Willis for being the same way they are and believe in. There is something beautiful in the way our Vietnamese friends have recognized this so clearly and have taken a righteous stand. They need to know (and they already know I think) that this problem exists practically everywhere in the world to varying degrees. It is a stiff-necked haughty spirit that is behind these problems. The workers are of the same mindset as Paul (Saul) before his eyes were opened Paul believed when he was persecuting the Christians, he was blameless in the eyes of the law, you couldn’t find fault with what he was doing, he was eager to carry out his understanding of righteousness and thought he was doing the right thing persecuting the believers, beating and forcing them to go bound to Jerusalem” BUT he didn’t KNOW Christ. He was acting according to his own righteousness which he could defend with the law but he didn’t understand the righteousness of God through faith in Christ |
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Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 13, 2013 20:26:46 GMT -5
This is not a Vietnam problem so much as a worldwide problem. Controlling workers are survivors in a ruthless religious system and they rise to the top over time. Meek and lowly Christlike workers are pushed out, leave in frustration, have their health broken, or somehow adapt to the system while trying to preserve their own integrity. Our Vietnamese friends are a wonderful example of what Christ-centred friends and workers should be doing worldwide i.e. Stop empowering unchristlike dominating types who promote their own kingdom and their own glory, proving by their actions they're not seeing the heavenly kingdom. I will henceforth seek to live for Jesus;
Help me, Lord, a witness true to be.
May my daily walk and words and actions
Prove to all that Jesus lives in me.That is correct. Darrel, Colin, Dale, Lyle aren't bad people. However, they have a common controlling spirit which they believe is right and necessary to keep the 2x2 church right in their eyes. This is the reason why DaleS and Jack Price couldn't help the people of Alberta in spite of a huge number of appeals.....they also have the same controlling spirit. They couldn't come out against Willis for being the same way they are and believe in. There is something beautiful in the way our Vietnamese friends have recognized this so clearly and have taken a righteous stand. They need to know (and they already know I think) that this problem exists practically everywhere in the world to varying degrees. It is a stiff-necked haughty spirit that is behind these problems. I have to wonder if in the long run of time that eventually the workers will meet one another in an argument that each other's teachings are not correct and that those who follow such teac hings are bound for a lost eternity. Isn't this the way that a country finds itself in civil war? Over periods of time, different men have risen to the top, to overlord the populace? And that each person that's risen to that tope and have established their preferences even to the ridding and negating their predecessors rules? Will this not eventually come into a worker battle that will consume the workership and lose the fellowship? I think letting human think tanks override the general consensus of the beginning of such grouping is the very thing that will cause the death of the 2x2 religion...such as it is today. People are exiting due to all of this rotten stuff that the top workers are pouring out upon the unsuspecting heads of the friends! I'd have to say that the golden friends that are outside the realm of the workers perhaps are better off then the ones who continue to march to their tunes! The way of God....is just a paraphrase to give the workership more power among unsuspecting peoples. The ONLY WAY of GOD is through "believing on Jesus Christ." Does John 3:16 say it all? "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish but have everlasting life." The key is Jesus, not the workers..... After studying only about Jesus for over 3 years, I begin to understand the difference and found out that only salvation is through Jesus Christ...the workers are not any more then anyone else other then they are supposedly out their to preach the gospel to people who do not know it. |
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Dec 13, 2013 20:42:22 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 13, 2013 20:42:22 GMT -5
This is a difficult post to make.
First, I KNOW there are workers who read and post here under assumed names. Some do it from truly caring for all of us and are fearful for their "place". Others do it (and you KNOW who you are, just know that I KNOW also, even your real identities) and use knowledge gained here to help maintain your place of authority and power in that 2&2 worker fellowship. No, I will NOT be revealing who you/they are.
MT, it saddens me to know that you will never be allowed to return to that fellowship by continuing to post here, truth though it may be. Yes there are those who want to discredit all of us who attempt to see that there is CHANGE in that works based religious teaching, and seek to force them to the spirit led example they claim to represent but do not. There ARE those on all levels in that group who are naive, and do not even know the true history of their own belief structure.
Some honestly believe what they claim, as long as they fit into its structure, which is mostly about "Place," Workers Place, Overseer's Place, younger worker's place, Elder's place, elder's wife's place, professing person's place, even a Newbie's place, divorced person's place and so on with the lowest possible existence being someone like myself. It is not coincidence that I have begun by those at the top, as workers believe in a descending order of authority in their 2&2 ministry works based doctrine, and have tried to teach it everywhere. Older preachers try to use the scripture to manipulate lesser beings in their fellowship into blind acceptance and obedience to what they say and teach.
Regarding this recent attempt at creating as "true" that which can no more be but current worker speculation:
NOWHERE does the scripture indicate that our LORD"S mother and his siblings were there to tell him about Joseph's death. That is pure worker surmising attempting to control what people in Vietnam now believe as true. I am ashamed at ever having been a "worker" when such manipulative practices are reported as truly occurring. It is disgraceful and should be rebuked by all hearing, or hearing of, such things. Those who will not or refuse to do so, reveal where they stand regarding such practices. Can any of us state it was untrue? No of course not, however by the same reasoning neither can anyone make assertions as to it being factually true. The way it was used indicates the attempt to create biblical supposition as fact! Disgraceful and Dishonorable! I have to agree with you Dennis. If there are workers that support Lyle or Colin reading here, it will be very difficult if not impossible for those who post here to come back. I truly hope we are both wrong. Snow, wehad another worker misunderstanding or as in this same case an overlording of workers. etc where one of our posters had to make the agreement that he would not post on TMB ever again! And this was in order that his meeting in his home for his extensive family was "worker sanctioned". From all that I've heard about that mtg. I have to question that the workers kept their part to the agreement.....I think there have been but a few workers sent to that mtg. and accordingly few friends sent there for mtg. I'm praying that by the time this leaves my fingers, that that meeting in the young father's home is just as worker and friend infused as any can be! But my point being was that the young father had to agree NOT to post on TMB! What are the workers afraid of? Are they getting more and more spastic about people coming into their own right as children of God? That these people can be touched and revealed to by God the same as the workers are? Do the workers actually fear the autnomony of the friends? It looks to me like that the fallout from the Alberta issues made them worse instead of showing them that more flies are drawn by honey instead of bitterweed! |
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Post by Sylvestra on Dec 13, 2013 23:03:15 GMT -5
MT, it saddens me to know that you will never be allowed to return to that fellowship by continuing to post here,
On my own opinion… I never want to be allowed into the fellowship not being led by The Spirit of God again. God had shown me His love & His care upon me. We just look at Jesus and hold His hand to step forward until the end of my life. At the day Lyle S came to my father house for reading his letter, to let us know that Uncle Hoa doesn’t have any part…in the work of God in VN. My father said to him “That’s you say, God never says like that…” Seeing my father disagree with his letter he said: “I can’t not take care of you any more…” (Mr.Bau) my father replied “God will take care of us”.
While uncle Lyle went out of my parents’ house, my mother pulled his shirt. “Please, send Chau back to us, we need him…I beg you” My mother 81 years old and a little confuse, she appreciated uncle Chau and missed him. What a sad picture !... isn’t it? A few days latter… An email came to my inbox, from my relative living in Australia with this links www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLPp4gXUY3oIt comforts our heart for knowing that God listened our pray and answered immediately for us as much as God has promised to Joshua "so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you."Recently, God had proved His promises to us very clearly when we went to Australia. Even our worker (uncle Chau afraid to contact with us). I had very worried with that trip… But day by day God had revealed to me that He knew our very tiny needs, and met our needs. His care was beyond our immage. We do thanks Thee.
That precious little voice singing out, "God will take care of you" was so wonderful. I have tears running down my cheeks....this is the reason I keep tissues on my computer stand! This is their message in the song, "God will take care of you", and it is my prayer for all of you again tonight. Rest in HIS care with trust and confidence! |
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Vietnam
Dec 14, 2013 0:00:19 GMT -5
Post by snow on Dec 14, 2013 0:00:19 GMT -5
I have to agree with you Dennis. If there are workers that support Lyle or Colin reading here, it will be very difficult if not impossible for those who post here to come back. I truly hope we are both wrong. Snow, wehad another worker misunderstanding or as in this same case an overlording of workers. etc where one of our posters had to make the agreement that he would not post on TMB ever again! And this was in order that his meeting in his home for his extensive family was "worker sanctioned". From all that I've heard about that mtg. I have to question that the workers kept their part to the agreement.....I think there have been but a few workers sent to that mtg. and accordingly few friends sent there for mtg. I'm praying that by the time this leaves my fingers, that that meeting in the young father's home is just as worker and friend infused as any can be! But my point being was that the young father had to agree NOT to post on TMB! What are the workers afraid of? Are they getting more and more spastic about people coming into their own right as children of God? That these people can be touched and revealed to by God the same as the workers are? Do the workers actually fear the autnomony of the friends? It looks to me like that the fallout from the Alberta issues made them worse instead of showing them that more flies are drawn by honey instead of bitterweed! That's pretty sad STR. What are they so afraid of? Why do they feel like they have to micromanage all their members? |
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Vietnam
Dec 14, 2013 5:13:02 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Dec 14, 2013 5:13:02 GMT -5
Thank you for all sharing here, I shed tears to read your comfort & understanding our situation.
We all had waited for a long time, talked and sent many letters to workers. We did hope that who was doing wrong, would make it right as Jesus had taught...
It was real that they never accepted their wrong. Two years later, after doing everything without any results. We had to said to Lyle that "We can't walk in double lines. (it means we can't progress).”
As Davit in Psalms 6:6 I am weary with my groaning; Every night make I my bed to swim; I water my couch with my tears.
More than a year, we didn’t know how to do, even we disagreed with many things they had done, but I felt regret for losing the very nice fellowship among us. We did know many of our friends still in their fellowship having the same regret as me, and dare not get out. It was the time we learnt Wed bible in Revelation 21. I began being afraid.
Revelation 21:27 and there shall in no wise enter into it anything unclean, or he that maketh an abomination and a lie:
If a lie couldn’t enter the Kingdom of God, how can they lead me in? From that time I felt my need stronger, I read Bible more, and more in my prayer, too. It was wonderful that through the Bible God showed me clearly how to serve him. Learning and doing as Jesus taught I gained the joy, happy with the leading of Spirit of God. His yoke really easy & his burden really light. "Come take my yoke upon you. My yoke is easy and my burden is light."
Answering to our letters, there is one warning to us(Dale S's letter) that If we don’t obey Lyle’s rule upon us, we will lost the wonderful fellowship throughout the world.
After reading all the messages and posts, my husband said… “Now God gives us the real wonderful fellowship, with love, comfort, and understanding…throughout the world”.
Many thanks
Xuân Hoàn & Minh Thanh
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Post by quizzer on Dec 14, 2013 8:44:08 GMT -5
Snow, wehad another worker misunderstanding or as in this same case an overlording of workers. etc where one of our posters had to make the agreement that he would not post on TMB ever again! And this was in order that his meeting in his home for his extensive family was "worker sanctioned". From all that I've heard about that mtg. I have to question that the workers kept their part to the agreement.....I think there have been but a few workers sent to that mtg. and accordingly few friends sent there for mtg. I'm praying that by the time this leaves my fingers, that that meeting in the young father's home is just as worker and friend infused as any can be! But my point being was that the young father had to agree NOT to post on TMB! What are the workers afraid of? Are they getting more and more spastic about people coming into their own right as children of God? That these people can be touched and revealed to by God the same as the workers are? Do the workers actually fear the autnomony of the friends? It looks to me like that the fallout from the Alberta issues made them worse instead of showing them that more flies are drawn by honey instead of bitterweed! That's pretty sad STR. What are they so afraid of? Why do they feel like they have to micromanage all their members? My understanding is that the workers were/are terrified of anyone finding out how they like to control the meetings. Seriously, if this is your management policy, broadcast it so that everyone knows and is well-informed. The "you'll find out someday" current management policy creates a lot of nasty surprises. |
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Dec 14, 2013 10:20:19 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 14, 2013 10:20:19 GMT -5
Snow, wehad another worker misunderstanding or as in this same case an overlording of workers. etc where one of our posters had to make the agreement that he would not post on TMB ever again! And this was in order that his meeting in his home for his extensive family was "worker sanctioned". From all that I've heard about that mtg. I have to question that the workers kept their part to the agreement.....I think there have been but a few workers sent to that mtg. and accordingly few friends sent there for mtg. I'm praying that by the time this leaves my fingers, that that meeting in the young father's home is just as worker and friend infused as any can be! But my point being was that the young father had to agree NOT to post on TMB! What are the workers afraid of? Are they getting more and more spastic about people coming into their own right as children of God? That these people can be touched and revealed to by God the same as the workers are? Do the workers actually fear the autnomony of the friends? It looks to me like that the fallout from the Alberta issues made them worse instead of showing them that more flies are drawn by honey instead of bitterweed! That's pretty sad STR. What are they so afraid of? Why do they feel like they have to micromanage all their members? Snow it is like it is commonly found among rulers that deal secretly or always seeking to keep themselves and what they really are and do in the dark. And I think these rulers know full well, that there is a great percentage of truth in that the light will show all the dirty fruits of their efforts to stay behind the cracs and crevices of human nature. I think money may well play into that...for the bible says the love of money is the root of ALL evil. We can't prove that this is actual facts just yet...but when human nature gets into this dictator-like mode with fellow mankind, then we can see that soon the love of money is what motivated that dictatorship! I think also when people have only fruits of the dark that there is certainly a desire to keep things going their own direction so they are not brought into responsibility and accountability! |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2013 11:29:54 GMT -5
Answering to our letters, there is one warning to us(Dale S's letter) that If we don’t obey Lyle’s rule upon us, we will lost the wonderful fellowship throughout the world. It is not in the Way of Christ to lord it over people, as Jesus said, that is the way of the Gentiles, which is the way that Dale Schultz is following. "But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. It is also not in the Spirit of Christ to threaten people as Dale threatened to remove your fellowship with others by his manmade powers, the spirit entreats. It does not push people away, it draws them closer. The Spirit of Christ always displays compassion, charity, and kindness. It lifts up, it builds, it repairs. It does not threaten pain, but brings about healing. A lot of people both inside the fellowship and outside have found real, reliable friends and fellowship outside of those who obey Dale Schultz and those under his control. I am glad you are finding the same blessing. |
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Vietnam
Dec 14, 2013 11:36:45 GMT -5
Post by Sylvestra on Dec 14, 2013 11:36:45 GMT -5
Snow, wehad another worker misunderstanding or as in this same case an overlording of workers. etc where one of our posters had to make the agreement that he would not post on TMB ever again! And this was in order that his meeting in his home for his extensive family was "worker sanctioned". From all that I've heard about that mtg. I have to question that the workers kept their part to the agreement.....I think there have been but a few workers sent to that mtg. and accordingly few friends sent there for mtg. I'm praying that by the time this leaves my fingers, that that meeting in the young father's home is just as worker and friend infused as any can be! But my point being was that the young father had to agree NOT to post on TMB! What are the workers afraid of? Are they getting more and more spastic about people coming into their own right as children of God? That these people can be touched and revealed to by God the same as the workers are? Do the workers actually fear the autnomony of the friends? It looks to me like that the fallout from the Alberta issues made them worse instead of showing them that more flies are drawn by honey instead of bitterweed! That's pretty sad STR. What are they so afraid of? Why do they feel like they have to micromanage all their members? My first guess is that they no longer trust God to manage this part of HIS people, who happen to be "their members"! To me, this is an indication of people who have tried to usurp Holy Spirit's leading, and the friction comes from people who recognize it.....people who truly know how it feels to be guided by HS and resist the usurpers! For those of you in VN, you are getting a picture of how much of the rest of the friends in the world are dictated to by the workers because all of your questions to the workers are the questions of many of them also!!!! It has been your blessing to know differently than what the Canadian workers are telling you and you have been guided by Holy Spirit. The friends in the United States, Canada, etc. are expected by the workers to live by those confusing rules the Canadian workers are trying to force you into....and without questioning them. Quite a few are excommunicated for their questioning. Many I know simply ignore the workers and go about letting Holy Spirit guide them, because they are afraid to leave the meetings because they've been taught that leaving means they will go to hell AND it is too hard to leave because of what their family and the friends will say about them. Isn't that a sad thing to have to say? Not being in fellowship with the workers church does not make anyone go to hell!! It only means leaving the workers church and continuing in fellowship with God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. This is a church that was created just over 100 years ago, and I'd like to know what happened to all the souls who had fellowship with God before they showed up? Are they in hell? NO! It is just ridiculous to think that the workers hold the "keys to the kingdom" and that their church IS the WAY, the DOOR, the TRUTH (or whatever else they like to call themselves!) when those are the name dedicated to JESUS and it is our relationship with JESUS we are after. It is Jesus blood sacrificed on the cross that saves us, not what church we fellowship with. Keep your courage and never let go of Jesus! |
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