Vietnam

[Deleted]

The "astray van" is an excellent illustration of one of the errors that the foreign workers are applying to VN. That is very perceptive MT.

The VN system of workers' travels from the Golden Time is much more effective than the territory system used by the Western workers. The VN system where workers like Chau with certain gifts can use those gifts wherever they are needed and give the most benefit to the most people. The Western system forces workers to stay in one territory and are expected to be helpful when they have have no gifts for that, and the gifts that they do have, are restricted to a tiny area. Then it gets worse when workers get possessive over their little territories, not being humble enough to realize that there are other gifted workers elsewhere who can be a great help to people in their field.

I think the Western overseers could learn a lot from Chau, but they don't seem humble or willing enough to do so.

[fixit]

Dec 10, 2013 11:54:58 GMT -5 @clearday said:

The "astray van" is an excellent illustration of one of the errors that the foreign workers are applying to VN. That is very perceptive MT.

The VN system of workers' travels from the Golden Time is much more effective than the territory system used by the Western workers. The VN system where workers like Chau with certain gifts can use those gifts wherever they are needed and give the most benefit to the most people. The Western system forces workers to stay in one territory and are expected to be helpful when they have have no gifts for that, and the gifts that they do have, are restricted to a tiny area. Then it gets worse when workers get possessive over their little territories, not being humble enough to realize that there are other gifted workers elsewhere who can be a great help to people in their field.

I think the Western overseers could learn a lot from Chau, but they don't seem humble or willing enough to do so.

When we consider the situation in Vietnam we're looking right at a solution for many of the challenges the ministry and fellowship is facing worldwide.

During the period the work prospered in Vietnam, it declined in the western world so its pretty sad that the foreigners want to westernise the work in Vietnam.

It seems that the Vietnamese workers and friends have gone beyond the call of duty to appease the foreign workers. Its time now for the foreigners to humble themselves and recognise that God can work without having to work through them.

There's a couple of ways we can consider the Vietnam situation as presented on this thread:

Viewpoint 1: The Vietnamese need to submit to the way the church is organised in other countries i.e. strict geographical fields controlled by a senior worker who answers to a country overseer who in turn answers to a regional overseer.

Viewpoint 2: The Vietnamese have proven that being impelled by love for one another, and for outsiders, works more effectively than dividing the country into fields and demanding what Willis Propp referred to as "the descending order of submission".

If you're a system-minded person you'll think that brute force and the dividing of the flock is necessary to bring "God's order" into the Vietnamese church.

The Western Alliance overseers were of the opinion that "we can afford to lose some friends in Alberta". The same thinking will lead to the conclusion that "we can afford to lose some friends in Vietnam" in order to standardise it and bring it into line with the world system.

[sharingtheriches]

The inflexibility of the workers whether in Saigon or Alberta, Can...will ultimately not only loose the "friends that are affordable" but perhaps eventually losing all of the friends.

It seems to me tat as friends are excommunicated, or are exiting before such happens to them, that the workers would be more of the mind to keep increasing the fold by opening up a mission for the non-members....and that they would just live amongst people and try to get acquainted with some...just like anybody has to do when they move to a new area.....then when the outsiders know those workers and can see that they are very upright and moral....then perhaps the outsiders will consider lisitening to the workers' gospel!

[Deleted]

Dec 10, 2013 17:47:43 GMT -5 fixit said:

Dec 10, 2013 11:54:58 GMT -5 @clearday said:

The "astray van" is an excellent illustration of one of the errors that the foreign workers are applying to VN. That is very perceptive MT.

The VN system of workers' travels from the Golden Time is much more effective than the territory system used by the Western workers. The VN system where workers like Chau with certain gifts can use those gifts wherever they are needed and give the most benefit to the most people. The Western system forces workers to stay in one territory and are expected to be helpful when they have have no gifts for that, and the gifts that they do have, are restricted to a tiny area. Then it gets worse when workers get possessive over their little territories, not being humble enough to realize that there are other gifted workers elsewhere who can be a great help to people in their field.

I think the Western overseers could learn a lot from Chau, but they don't seem humble or willing enough to do so.

When we consider the situation in Vietnam we're looking right at a solution for many of the challenges the ministry and fellowship is facing worldwide.

During the period the work prospered in Vietnam, it declined in the western world so its pretty sad that the foreigners want to westernise the work in Vietnam.

It seems that the Vietnamese workers and friends have gone beyond the call of duty to appease the foreign workers. Its time now for the foreigners to humble themselves and recognise that God can work without having to work through them.

There's a couple of ways we can consider the Vietnam situation as presented on this thread:

Viewpoint 1: The Vietnamese need to submit to the way the church is organised in other countries i.e. strict geographical fields controlled by a senior worker who answers to a country overseer who in turn answers to a regional overseer.

Viewpoint 2: The Vietnamese have proven that being impelled by love for one another, and for outsiders, works more effectively than dividing the country into fields and demanding what Willis Propp referred to as "the descending order of submission".

If you're a system-minded person you'll think that brute force and the dividing of the flock is necessary to bring "God's order" into the Vietnamese church.

The Western Alliance overseers were of the opinion that "we can afford to lose some friends in Alberta". The same thinking will lead to the conclusion that "we can afford to lose some friends in Vietnam" in order to standardise it and bring it into line with the world system.

The last two or three decades have been characterized in the Western Alliance by two things:

1. Utter failure of evangelizing their gospel
2. Bungling of church management in many places, the worst in recent years being Alberta and Alaska but many many smaller situations as well.

Why would they want to export their system to Vietnam? By doing so, they have decimated the Vietnam church. Instead, they should look to Vietnam for lessons they can apply in the areas in which they have failed in Western countries.

[stargazer]

Perhaps we can take some perspective from Alexander's experience. After having made his case on this forum and airing the issues, in due course, a cool head from the ministry, I'm not sure who although I have a pretty good idea, traveled from a distance and met with the parties. A solution seems to have surfaced and we no longer hear of it here.

I'd like to think, that in due course the same will happen in the Vietnamese situation. I urge then, that the participants here pray to that end and rather than inflame already raw emotions, be patient and see if it will happen. If so, wouldn't it be grand? And, if not, then we can resume editorializing.

[fixit]

Dec 11, 2013 13:25:45 GMT -5 stargazer said:

Perhaps we can take some perspective from Alexander's experience. After having made his case on this forum and airing the issues, in due course, a cool head from the ministry, I'm not sure who although I have a pretty good idea, traveled from a distance and met with the parties. A solution seems to have surfaced and we no longer hear of it here.

I'd like to think, that in due course the same will happen in the Vietnamese situation. I urge then, that the participants here pray to that end and rather than inflame already raw emotions, be patient and see if it will happen. If so, wouldn't it be grand? And, if not, then we can resume editorializing.

I wonder if Alexander's situation would have been resolved without the "editorializing" on TMB?

If overseers were more open to discussion and resolution of issues, they would be less likely to be aired on TMB.

[CherieKropp]

Are you sure Alexander's situation is resolved? 

[Deleted]

Dec 11, 2013 22:02:06 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

Are you sure Alexander's situation is resolved? 

Unless, there have been subsequent events, I would suggest that it was never actually resolved properly. Alexander ended up being the first Friend to be excommunicated without being excommunicated. The problem was "resolved" by giving him his own meeting but assigning no friends to the meeting. That is very similar to what happened to Edgar. If I recall, Edgar was told that the meeting in his city didn't want him and he wasn't offered anything else (if there was any option). So his only choice was to establish his own meeting with his own family and no one else.

Resolution would have been to mediate between Alexander and his complainants and bring them back together again as Christian brothers. If any efforts were made in that direction, they failed and the matter is not resolved.

If my summary is not correct, maybe someone could update it.

[stargazer]

Dec 11, 2013 23:36:53 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Dec 11, 2013 22:02:06 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

Are you sure Alexander's situation is resolved? 

Unless, there have been subsequent events, I would suggest that it was never actually resolved properly. Alexander ended up being the first Friend to be excommunicated without being excommunicated. The problem was "resolved" by giving him his own meeting but assigning no friends to the meeting. That is very similar to what happened to Edgar. If I recall, Edgar was told that the meeting in his city didn't want him and he wasn't offered anything else (if there was any option). So his only choice was to establish his own meeting with his own family and no one else.

Resolution would have been to mediate between Alexander and his complainants and bring them back together again as Christian brothers. If any efforts were made in that direction, they failed and the matter is not resolved.

If my summary is not correct, maybe someone could update it.

I'm simply recalling his final posts which have now been deleted. If my memory serves me correctly, he met with an overseer from a distant state and with the overseer (DK) of the state in which the problem occurred. The issue was that that Alexander's special needs children made fellowship difficult and the f/w in that area lacked the capacity to understand. So a meeting was allowed in A's home. At least a measure of understanding was achieved for a difficult situation for all. Some apologies were made and Alexander agreed to discontinue making the issues public. So while it was perfect for no one, at least some effort was made to accommodate the situation.

This is only what I recall and I simply suggest that an effort was made and perhaps the parties could stand down for awhile in the Vietnamese situation in hope for reconciliation, which, I'd suspect will take years. The "Golden Times" may never be quite the same. But isn't that the nature of this life?

I have no need to rehash the Alexander situation nor Edgar's.

[fixit]

Dec 12, 2013 3:25:55 GMT -5 stargazer said:

...perhaps the parties could stand down for awhile in the Vietnamese situation in hope for reconciliation, which, I'd suspect will take years.

Why should it take years?

God's time is now: O do not wait
Until another day is born;
His Spirit, grieved, may take His flight
And leave you never to return.

Today if you will hear His voice,
Respond and harden not your heart;
Wait not a more convenient day:
His Holy Spirit may depart.


I seem to recall that the Vietnamese friends requested a meeting with the foreign workers and they declined.

[Deleted]

2x2ism is NEVER EVER interested in open reconciliation if it should include anything else than complete capitulation from the side of dissent against leadership policy. There are hundreds of examples of refusal to back down on even the most noncontestable examples of unchristian, unreasonable and clearly hypocritical positions leadership has taken. (ex radio/TV policy official hardline policy)

The closest 2x2ism will ever come to retreat on these kinds of issues of clear ungodliness --- is to ignore the issue and pretend they never happened.


And as this Vietnam issue clearly proves --- 2x2ism never learns!! This kind of thing keeps happening time and time again since the groups formation over a 100 years ago now.

2x2ism has become the perfect example of the preservation of corruption and dishonesty in organizational cultural history.

Don't hold your breath until their is any 2x2 backdown in Vietnam!!!! It is not going to happen.

[minhthanh]

Again, I've just wanted you all to see the real picture happening in my country... as my friends requested, for workers or friends (especially  Vietnamese friends who are living around the world) could examine for themselves and could understand things as it is.

We still worship God as usual, even in hard condition but we can see very clearly God has blessed us, and taken care us in anyway... we never get any ashamed but get full of joy... encouraged us to continue learning how to serve God in His will.

Many times I've talked to our young friends... God had showed all his way, and how to serve Him in the Bible... don't put our soul under any shadow's overseers or workers, although they have very godly life. We should see the example of Jesus to learn.


I had brought my daughter in law to the Gospel Meeting since she was my son's girlfriend, (she belongs to a Buddha family).
She was listening very carefully. Even one time she wanted to profess, but my son (her husband) prevented her...  "Please, don't profess because of me, you should understand clearly before you profess...". I continued taking her to the Gospel Meeting.
That Sunday afternoon in my youngest sister's house...
Uncle Lyle said his coming made that family up side down in joy... (He wanted to encourage them  because their hearty welcome.) My older sister  had sighed "The worker praise the elder in their message in return, the elder praise the worker in their testimony".

There was a Canadian worker, who witnessed many things happening. We did appreciate him, he was a godly worker, we learnt a lot from him, and He gave us many good advice too. No sooner after many things happened he had to returned to Canada. Didn't know the reason why?...I asked uncle Hoa about him. Uncle Hoa replied : "Darrel said: Colin is a bull-headed person" (at that time, uncle Hoa accompany Darrel & Cường). Maybe that was the reason.
After Darrel, and Moris returned to Canada. Again, I didn't know the reason why Colin was called back to VN...
We welcomed him at the airport, his first saying with us was "I didn't think that I have the chance to come back to VN, I'm too happy to be here again..."
He accompanied  uncle Lyle to my house sometimes to hear and solve some problems... This time he did't say any word... just hear and written down (I didn't know what for?).
He preached that day...(I'm sorry I will continue later because it's time I'll pick up my grandchild...)

[minhthanh]

Dec 11, 2013 13:51:21 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Dec 11, 2013 13:25:45 GMT -5 stargazer said:

I believe MOST of the golden friends still LOVE many of the current friends and workers in VN and they want to have the golden fellowship again! Hopefully, the current Adm. will humble themselves, and make things right.... Please, don't let VN situation become another Alberta excommunication fiasco, when both parties don't work together to solve the differences, issues, etc. Work with Hoa, Chau and the 100 golden friends.... These people are good, hearty friends. They have given their lives in the service of God for MANY years.

We are all waiting for a solution... such as all the friends had patience to wait for the astray van with workers inside returning. (All the workers didn't want to astray, just because they all sat inside, while the driver didn't know the way to go to the cemetery.)

Yes we love our workers and friends, and all friends want to have a unity again... because these problems were caused by workers !...
We are continuing in serving our God to the end of our life, in spite of they want to solve these problems or not. Just  only feel pity for our people still under the wickedness.

[Deleted]

Dec 12, 2013 4:07:00 GMT -5 fixit said:

Dec 12, 2013 3:25:55 GMT -5 stargazer said:

...perhaps the parties could stand down for awhile in the Vietnamese situation in hope for reconciliation, which, I'd suspect will take years.

Why should it take years?

God's time is now: O do not wait
Until another day is born;
His Spirit, grieved, may take His flight
And leave you never to return.

Today if you will hear His voice,
Respond and harden not your heart;
Wait not a more convenient day:
His Holy Spirit may depart.


I seem to recall that the Vietnamese friends requested a meeting with the foreign workers and they declined.

In every other case I have heard of (or experienced) similar to this one has never been resolved before, so I suspect "worker" overseers have just too much pride to ever make the necessary changes that would enable this, or any such situation, to ever be resolved. Why? They simply do not care who they hurt, and this is proven by the number of children and innocent parties involved in their atrocious decisions who are never considered, because of what? THEIR PRIDE! They simply cannot allow themselves to be seen as no longer final authority. Further, the more focus placed upon any such situation the more they dig in their heels and obstinately, stubbornly refuse to repent, reconsider the consequences of their edicts, which soon become as firmly entrenched as those of other "infallibility of their leader" groups. Tragic. Yet it does expose what their true foundation rests upon. "A works based religion."

[Deleted]

Dec 12, 2013 9:58:26 GMT -5 minhthanh said:

Dec 11, 2013 13:51:21 GMT -5 NathanB said:

I believe MOST of the golden friends still LOVE many of the current friends and workers in VN and they want to have the golden fellowship again! Hopefully, the current Adm. will humble themselves, and make things right.... Please, don't let VN situation become another Alberta excommunication fiasco, when both parties don't work together to solve the differences, issues, etc. Work with Hoa, Chau and the 100 golden friends.... These people are good, hearty friends. They have given their lives in the service of God for MANY years.

We are all waiting for a solution... such as all the friends had patience to wait for the astray van with workers inside returning. (All the workers didn't want to astray, just because they all sat inside, while the driver didn't know the way to go to the cemetery.)

Yes we love our workers and friends, and all friends want to have a unity again... because these problems were caused by workers !...
We are continuing in serving our God to the end of our life, in spite of they want to solve these problems or not. Just  only feel pity for our people still under the wickedness.

The best way to start the solution is for all foreign workers to either leave Vietnam or take a subservient role to the local Vietnamese workers and friends. Only then can you look at re-unifying and resolving issues. It will be very difficult, perhaps very unlikely, for a solution to occur otherwise. The foreign workers have divided the people and since they caused the problem believing they are right, they cannot resolve the problem.

In North America, the prevailing view among the workers is that Vietnam had (unspecified) problems which had to be corrected so their minds are not going to change that the Vietnamese people are in the wrong. So far, I haven't heard of anything which needed to be corrected whether it was meeting times, home bible studies among family, or Hoa going around visiting friends in need.

[Deleted]

Dec 12, 2013 11:13:59 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Dec 12, 2013 10:53:52 GMT -5 @clearday said:

The best way to start the solution is for all foreign workers to either leave Vietnam or take a subservient role to the local Vietnamese workers and friends. Only then can you look at re-unifying and resolving issues. It will be very difficult, perhaps very unlikely, for a solution to occur otherwise. The foreign workers have divided the people and since they caused the problem believing they are right, they cannot resolve the problem.

In North America, the prevailing view among the workers is that Vietnam had (unspecified) problems which had to be corrected so their minds are not going to change that the Vietnamese people are in the wrong. So far, I haven't heard of anything which needed to be corrected whether it was meeting times, home bible studies among family, or Hoa going around visiting friends in need.

The foreigners workers can stay in VN but they must be under the guidance of Chau and Hoa leadership as they were registered to the gov't in VN as Fred Allen had wanted to be done. It was a BIG mistake when they put the foreigners in charge in VN a few years ago! Creating a lot of problems, envy, Jealousy because it divided and the workers and friends loyalty, trust. The transition of Darrel T. leadership didn't go very smoothly. Anyone who disagrees with him, workers were sent back to their countries, the friends to be excommunicated from the main group when they tried to reasons with him.

Too bad, the foreigners workers had taken the reign too soon. They should have let Chau and Hoa continue being the leaders like they had done before, a marvelous job for 40 yrs. When they were no longer able then, just a few more years, they are NOT young anymore, then the foreigners should step in to take the lead.... This transition is much better for everyone to accept and follow.

I agree Nathan. It's ok for foreign workers to stay as long as they operate under the direction and decisions of Chau and Hoa. Otherwise, nothing will get resolved because the foreign workers believe that they have done everything right. They pulled out Darrel not because they think he did something wrong, but because they think a new foreign overseer can come in with smooth words and sooth people so they can carry on with their "corrections". The same thing happened in Alberta. Nothing was resolved, no errors were openly admitted and acknowledged, and a new overseer, a nice fellow, was sent in to smooth things over by putting a new patch on an old garment. The new overseer in Alberta is a gracious, very low profile overseer and by doing so, people settled down but make no mistake, the problems were not resolved.

[Deleted]

Dec 12, 2013 11:43:02 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Dec 12, 2013 11:29:06 GMT -5 @clearday said:

I agree Nathan. It's ok for foreign workers to stay as long as they operate under the direction and decisions of Chau and Hoa. Otherwise, nothing will get resolved because the foreign workers believe that they have done everything right. They pulled out Darrel not because they think he did something wrong, but because they think a new foreign overseer can come in with smooth words and sooth people so they can carry on with their "corrections". The same thing happened in Alberta. Nothing was resolved, no errors were openly admitted and acknowledged, and a new overseer, a nice fellow, was sent in to smooth things over by putting a new patch on an old garment. The new overseer in Alberta is a gracious, very low profile overseer and by doing so, people settled down but make no mistake, the problems were not resolved.

CD, they should sent us in VN.... You and I with God's help will get this thing solved in no time. hahahaha...

Jokes aside, I think we could Nathan. I don't see any insurmountable problems whatsoever there.

[Christopher J.]

Darrel, Morris, and Colin are all in Singapore convention this weekend, along with most of the Vietnamese workers presently on staff. If Darrel has indeed been removed, he hasn't been removed very far.

[minhthanh]

Dec 12, 2013 12:04:31 GMT -5 Christopher J. said:

Darrel, Morris, and Colin are all in Singapore convention this weekend, along with most of the Vietnamese workers presently on staff. If Darrel has indeed been removed, he hasn't been removed very far.

Thank you for the news...They had been staying with us many times. 
We don't hate them, just hate the way they were treating... 

We just want them to put wrong into right. And seeing the bad result for their reign upon Vietnamese workers & friends. Given an apology... that enough.    A hopeful meeting...

[minhthanh]

Returning to the Gospel Meeting at my younger sister’s house. After uncle Lyle spoke, it was turn of Colin to give his message...

About Jesus life, Jesus is the key to open the door for us , through His life we can enter the Kingdom of God. If we want to make one more key, we had to do exactly every detail, If not we cannot open the door.

Today, we are His workers, we had to do exactly like Jesus's life, in order to help you enter the Kingdom of God.

Mark 3:33 : "A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”

Do you know the reason why His mother and brothers looking for him? It must be a very important and serious reason, such as Joseph died. Although His mother and brother came and informed Jesus the sad news of Joseph passing away. Jesus still continued in His preaching, not returning home.

Lyle.S here was the same as Jesus, although his mother passed away some months ago, he still here continued his preaching, not returned home... (In my own opinion that reason was unbelievable, just need only one brother to inform to Jesus that "Joseph was dead" that enough , don't need mother and brothers go along, all the rest stay at home for the Joseph's funeral).



The day after was Monday, we was very surprised with the visiting of an elder, for a long time he didn't want to come into our house, because Darrel told him many made up stories about us... caused him dislike to contact with us... (We have had very nice relationship before). This man has 2 younger sisters and one cousin in the work, fellowship meeting in his home too.

We didn't know the reason why, when he went through very sad and serious problems, he remember us, came and told us his hard experience he was facing with these workers !... (His name is Thinh , he asked my husband to record all his telling, and showing as an evidence if he pass away... My husband still keeps it).

Through his talking we also know that Cường his cousin (Vietnamese brother worker) was back to the North a few days ago for attended his (Cường) grand mother's funeral.

Immediately God show us "The message had been given by Colin was wrong". Cường couldn't went back to the North without permission (While he was staying with them).

With us, It doesn't matter for Cường returning to his Grand Mother's funeral. Why did they know it, but still preached "Today,we were exactly like Jesus, not returned home even Joseph passed away".

Very sad that his speaking wasn't true with the fact happening. (I had sent an email to ask about this untrue message !..."

[Deleted]

You are correct MT, Colin's message was wrong, and Lyle's choice to disregard the privilege of comforting of his own family in his mother's death is also a bad choice. These men need to look within themselves to find empathy for those who are hurting and need help.

Wrong preaching is not unusual for Lyle or Colin. A few years ago, Lyle preached here that all workers are "spirit led" because they are free to go wherever they are led to go and no one is telling them where to be. Yet only a few years later he is involved in splitting VN because of the way they tell workers to stay within their field boundaries. Two good VN workers have been badly treated over this. It's not Spirit-led at all, workers are assigned to a field territory and are not allowed to step outside of it.

More recently, Colin was preaching that young Canadians should not come over to VN if they are going to "ruin all my hard work". He was referring to young Canadians' dress styles. Again, it is false preaching. He is using the traditions of man as doctrine.
“And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men."
“For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men"

[Deleted]

The likely process that is going on in Hong Kong Singapore right now is that Darrel, Colin and Morris are insisting to Hoa and Chau that they must do things the foreign way in order to keep the "unity". They will be expecting Chau and Hoa to go back to VN and tell people that they are in agreement with the three Canadians.

Those three men are most likely unable to resolve the problems, but a few prayers for a miracle wouldn't hurt anything.

[Deleted]

This is a difficult post to make.

First, I KNOW there are workers who read and post here under assumed names. Some do it from truly caring for all of us and are fearful for their "place". Others do it (and you KNOW who you are, just know that I KNOW also, even your real identities) and use knowledge gained here to help maintain your place of authority and power in that 2&2 worker fellowship. No, I will NOT be revealing who you/they are.

MT, it saddens me to know that you will never be allowed to return to that fellowship by continuing to post here, truth though it may be. Yes there are those who want to discredit all of us who attempt to see that there is CHANGE in that works based religious teaching, and seek to force them to the spirit led example they claim to represent but do not. There ARE those on all levels in that group who are naive, and do not even know the true history of their own belief structure.

Some honestly believe what they claim, as long as they fit into its structure, which is mostly about "Place," Workers Place, Overseer's Place, younger worker's place, Elder's place, elder's wife's place, professing person's place, even a Newbie's place, divorced person's place and so on with the lowest possible existence being someone like myself. It is not coincidence that I have begun by those at the top, as workers believe in a descending order of authority in their 2&2 ministry works based doctrine, and have tried to teach it everywhere. Older preachers try to use the scripture to manipulate lesser beings in their fellowship into blind acceptance and obedience to what they say and teach.

Regarding this recent attempt at creating as "true" that which can no more be but current worker speculation:

NOWHERE does the scripture indicate that our LORD"S mother and his siblings were there to tell him about Joseph's death. That is pure worker surmising attempting to control what people in Vietnam now believe as true. I am ashamed at ever having been a "worker" when such manipulative practices are reported as truly occurring. It is disgraceful and should be rebuked by all hearing, or hearing of, such things. Those who will not or refuse to do so, reveal where they stand regarding such practices. Can any of us state it was untrue? No of course not, however by the same reasoning neither can anyone make assertions as to it being factually true. The way it was used indicates the attempt to create biblical supposition as fact! Disgraceful and Dishonorable!

[logain]

Sad to hear that it was Colin B. who was excessively focused on outward appearance and clothing.

I had heard that he learned years ago (in Alberta farm and ranch country) to not get overly concerned with women wearing pants.


The belief that Jesus family members came to him because of "Josephs death" is a new interpretation of that story, (new to me anyways). If Lyle S. felt it was impractical to travel back to Canada for his mother's funeral, it's a decision I can respect. It probably was not easy to make that choice. But to preach that this decision (to not go) is somehow proof of a Christian messenger, that's a bit of a stretch.

[Christopher J.]

Dec 12, 2013 14:01:16 GMT -5 @clearday said:

The likely process that is going on in Hong Kong right now is that Darrel, Colin and Morris are insisting to Hoa and Chau that they must do things the foreign way in order to keep the "unity". They will be expecting Chau and Hoa to go back to VN and tell people that they are in agreement with the three Canadians.

Those three men are most likely unable to resolve the problems, but a few prayers for a miracle wouldn't hurt anything.

Are Chau and Hoa there in Singapore? Chau's name is not on the list to speak, although most of the younger Vietnamese workers are.

[fixit]

Dec 12, 2013 14:01:16 GMT -5 @clearday said:

The likely process that is going on in Hong Kong right now is that Darrel, Colin and Morris are insisting to Hoa and Chau that they must do things the foreign way in order to keep the "unity". They will be expecting Chau and Hoa to go back to VN and tell people that they are in agreement with the three Canadians.

Did you mean Singapore?

Workers speak of "unity", "order", "fitting in", "co-operating with", etc and it all amounts to the acceptance of the "descending order of authority" doctrine.

This is what the "gospel" has become. It's no longer about accepting Jesus Christ and following the leading of the Spirit.

It now about accepting the ministry and coming under its descending order of authority.

The key to resolving the man-made problems is to get back to the basics of what Jesus actually taught.

Matthew 20:25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.

26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,

27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—

28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

[snow]

Dec 12, 2013 14:05:45 GMT -5 @dennisj said:

This is a difficult post to make.

First, I KNOW there are workers who read and post here under assumed names. Some do it from truly caring for all of us and are fearful for their "place". Others do it (and you KNOW who you are, just know that I KNOW also, even your real identities) and use knowledge gained here to help maintain your place of authority and power in that 2&2 worker fellowship. No, I will NOT be revealing who you/they are.

MT, it saddens me to know that you will never be allowed to return to that fellowship by continuing to post here, truth though it may be. Yes there are those who want to discredit all of us who attempt to see that there is CHANGE in that works based religious teaching, and seek to force them to the spirit led example they claim to represent but do not. There ARE those on all levels in that group who are naive, and do not even know the true history of their own belief structure.

Some honestly believe what they claim, as long as they fit into its structure, which is mostly about "Place," Workers Place, Overseer's Place, younger worker's place, Elder's place, elder's wife's place, professing person's place, even a Newbie's place, divorced person's place and so on with the lowest possible existence being someone like myself. It is not coincidence that I have begun by those at the top, as workers believe in a descending order of authority in their 2&2 ministry works based doctrine, and have tried to teach it everywhere. Older preachers try to use the scripture to manipulate lesser beings in their fellowship into blind acceptance and obedience to what they say and teach.

Regarding this recent attempt at creating as "true" that which can no more be but current worker speculation:

NOWHERE does the scripture indicate that our LORD"S mother and his siblings were there to tell him about Joseph's death. That is pure worker surmising attempting to control what people in Vietnam now believe as true. I am ashamed at ever having been a "worker" when such manipulative practices are reported as truly occurring. It is disgraceful and should be rebuked by all hearing, or hearing of, such things. Those who will not or refuse to do so, reveal where they stand regarding such practices. Can any of us state it was untrue? No of course not, however by the same reasoning neither can anyone make assertions as to it being factually true. The way it was used indicates the attempt to create biblical supposition as fact! Disgraceful and Dishonorable!

I have to agree with you Dennis. If there are workers that support Lyle or Colin reading here, it will be very difficult if not impossible for those who post here to come back. I truly hope we are both wrong.

[fixit]

Dec 12, 2013 15:08:03 GMT -5 snow said:

I have to agree with you Dennis. If there are workers that support Lyle or Colin reading here, it will be very difficult if not impossible for those who post here to come back. I truly hope we are both wrong.

It will be very difficult for the Canadian workers to repent, but not impossible. They are human beings like the rest of us.

The apostle Peter had a wrong attitude towards the Gentiles and he got right.

Galatians 2:11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.

13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?