Vietnam

[stargazer]

Dec 3, 2013 15:54:07 GMT -5 @dennisj said:

Stargazer, if that is how you perceive it, then that is how it is for you, intended or not. Yes, I DO want others to know the grief and pain such beliefs, when resulting in excommunication, and shunning, even disinheritance, often bring to on an intended basis to those receiving it. If that comes through my posts though not intended to make ANYONE quit only know that which is really true about 2&2 preacher doctrine, then so be it. Surely people can recognize when something is really true with regard to such things, would you not think?

Yes, snow, even stargazer's posts have their effect, intended or not, as have all who post here.

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Now then, just finished making a big pot of medium hot chili with finely sliced beef stake cut and diced and cooked in the pressure cooker. Wish someone from here lived close enough to share it with tonight. Nothing fancy, however, I like it now and then and so does Katie who gets home later tonight.

From Cherie's post above: www.tellingthetruth.info/workers_early/carrolls2.php "Fellowship of the Family of God" referring from her site, a reprint of Jack Carroll's 1920 sermon regarding fellowshipping or "dis-fellowshipping" (my words. Dennis's post immediately following seemed (in my reading) to be responding although perhaps in subtext, to that sermon.

"One of the saddest things to me is to see a true child of God coming under the power and influence of any man who was once numbered amongst God's people and who now is not only out of fellowship but is seeking to hinder others, because when they come under such influ­ ence, they are in great danger of losing all that they had previously been building up which would have brought them eternal reward. "Look that you lose not, but that you obtain a full reward."

Hence, the question posed in my former post. Forgive me if that is not correct.

[Deleted]

No, once I would have cared what JC said. However, upon having good documentation of his imported mistress from Australia and other of his activities, I hold far less respect and regard for anything he left on record. My post to Cherie was as genuine as it could be, and there are a number of lessons I have learned from her. I was just curious if my memory was correct, and what I posted had no ulterior motive nor hidden agenda. Have I done SO poor of a job expressing myself here that my motives are questionable? Perhaps it IS time to just quit posting if that is the case.

[stargazer]

Thanks for the response. No need to quit posting on my behalf.

[minhthanh]

Dec 3, 2013 11:41:35 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

Nov 18, 2013 3:15:21 GMT -5 minhthanh said:

Back to beginning when the Canadian workers came... We never know there is a position in God Way : "OVERSEER"
We just hearing that the younger worker will obey the older... And we are the friends obey the workers... And the workers are under the leading of Holy Spirit and live as Jesus teach in The Bible.
One day I asked Uncle Châu gave advice to some young sister workers... Because their appearance not like sister workers in the past.
The answer I receive from uncle Châu just "Now they do not obey my advice any more, they just obey Darrel T. You may speak direct to him..."
Day by day we know that there is a power upon us by OVERSEER !!!.

MT:  Can you tell us what these sister workers were doing differently than they had in the past?

I just wanted uncle Châu remind them to have the lovely appearance as they had had before going into the work. Friendly, considerate to the friends and help them in their need, talking to friends to understand their situation if posible.... as they had in the past.
One old friend complained about 1 young sister worker that, when she hasn't gone to work, she is nice as her niece, every time coming to visit, she went into the kitchen to help. But now being a young worker she sit there as a boss, or talking with their range(workers with workers)... in spite of I'm so busy in the kitchen preparing food for serving them.
Now being a worker, it seems they enter in another class(or range)... No want to talk friendly to friends (even in the breaking time). Completely different with the  visitors from Philippine.
I had mentioned these things with uncle Dale and Darrel at the time they had meal at my home too.

[CherieKropp]

I see.  If the workers are foreigners, they are probably not familiar with the foods and preparation needed...
I know I would be at a loss as to how to help in an Asian kitchen...

But of course, they could ask...and could be shown what to do...

[fixit]

Dec 3, 2013 20:46:33 GMT -5 minhthanh said:

I just wanted uncle Châu remind them to have the lovely appearance as they had had before going into the work. Friendly, considerate to the friends and help them in their need, talking to friends to understand their situation if posible.... as they had in the past.
One old friend complained about 1 young sister worker that, when she hasn't gone to work, she is nice as her niece, every time coming to visit, she went into the kitchen to help. But now being a young worker she sit there as a boss, or talking with their range(workers with workers)... in spite of I'm so busy in the kitchen preparing food for serving them.
Now being a worker, it seems they enter in another class(or range)... No want to talk friendly to friends (even in the breaking time). Completely different with the  visitors from Philippine.

I wonder if they are afraid to be considered by the Canadians to be too close to the friends?

Galatians 2:11 When Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

12 For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.

13 The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14 When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

[minhthanh]

Dec 3, 2013 21:32:00 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

I see.  If the workers are foreigners, they are probably not familiar with the foods and preparation needed...
I know I would be at a loss as to how to help in an Asian kitchen...

But of course, they could ask...and could be shown what to do...

Before she came into the work, she knew how to do but after being a worker, she became completely different, Not as a niece any more. she was in another class.

[CherieKropp]

Dec 3, 2013 21:58:48 GMT -5 minhthanh said:

Dec 3, 2013 21:32:00 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

I see.  If the workers are foreigners, they are probably not familiar with the foods and preparation needed...
I know I would be at a loss as to how to help in an Asian kitchen...

But of course, they could ask...and could be shown what to do...

Before she came into the work, she knew how to do but after being a worker, she became completely different, Not as a niece any more. she was in another class.

I understand now.  Thanks for the explanation.

[minhthanh]

I wonder if they are afraid to be considered by the Canadians to be too close to the friends?

Exactly !... Fixit...

Not only the young worker... but also our old local worker... uncle Châu now. As you see he was too afraid to meet us when we came to Australia. {If you know how close we have had with him, you will be surprised  as our friends and his brother had surprised!...)

Today I will tell you about another lovely sister local worker. She met a lot of trouble with her companions, and how she was very afraid till now...
M.H  is the oldest Vietnamese sister worker now. She still respect our two local workers as before, never has any criticize word from her. We still love and respect her as ever. But she very afraid to meet us even by accident... or hearing our phone call when her companion being there beside her !... 
One time she & her younger companion disagreed together... The younger reported to Darrel, at my relative house (the couple I had mentioned last page). They spoke in English and she thought that her older sister couldn't understand, but unfortunate that the daughter in that family listened and understood all detail... 
They were disappointed to see miss M.H had to leave the work after that. They restored her work after 2 years, now she is under the control of her younger companion... The same as uncle Châu now !... 
The story I'll tell you here may be answer their question... about the matter just happen with sister M.H.

[Deleted]

Dec 3, 2013 16:05:37 GMT -5 sharingtheriches said:

Dec 3, 2013 7:06:42 GMT -5 @dennisj said:

Many of us across the entire world have wondered the same thing. For some of us the only answer and thus reason for this type of thing is quite simple: "it isn't what has been so idealistcally taught, and as first carried to any site by ourself or any other. It is now belief the BEING, ' Yahu'shuah ' (meaning "God-Savior) is Himself The Way, Truth, and Life, rather than any works based religious teaching."

Upon understanding this, all humanity is considered redeemable by HIM, and those of us believing this no longer restrict our thinking as to whom is, or is not, saved in believing such a thing, as all who do become our brothers and sisters in such belief. Then every individual chooses for themselves (and not for any other) how to embrace the non-essentials, previously believed so ESSENTIAL for love and fellowship with anyone else. For me, and now I know many believing as I ALSO have been forced to reconsider and believe: this is what really is the true good news of the account of "Yahu'shuah" which brings great love, joy and an eventual peace in such turning to The Lord.

Thanks, it is true that once we shed the old cloak of exclusive rhetoric and man made doctrine, and center ourselves up on the one that has the answers already written in the scripture....Jesus is our salvation for truth...HE IS the WAY, the truth and the Light! He also is the very depth of LOVE....He gave His life so that all of those whom He has created may dwell with Him eternally! That is the basis of the salvation from the beginning of the world.....

Now to the 2x2's losing their grasp and usuage of the the real "truth" in Jesus, we can look at the very beginning of the 2x2's....William Irvine wrote before his death that it had been a great experiment. And when we come to recognize the fact that the beginning workers wanted to see if by them going out 2x2 itinerant ministry would work in their day where there was so much dissatisfaction in the established churches. The workers did NOT start to make anything, but the success went to their head and with envy they then decided to wrap their converts up and they would keep control over them by tooth and nail....and so they continue trying to doing that.

There ARE some workers that do give effort to preach the gospel of Christ...and I'm glad for them, but I'm sure they're caught up in what every other worker is doing and what the ruling workers desire...that they just have to go along with them at times.

i don't why there seems to be difference in the fellowship by what is posted on this board but we have had nothing but [Jesus is our salvation for truth...HE IS the WAY, the truth and the Light! He also is the very depth of LOVE....He gave His life so that all of those whom He has created may dwell with Him eternally! That is the basis of the salvation from the beginning of the world.....] preached in our Gospel meetings or conventions with overseas workers and no rhetoric about exclusiveness or being only way and i have no recollection of it ever being said in my hearing neither do i read it in any notes i have or receive which are from around the world

[CherieKropp]

MinhThanh wrote: One time she & her younger companion disagreed together...

Do you know what the disagreement was about?
What country was the younger companion from?
How long ago did this happen?

[Deleted]

Mt, oh ma'am, I am so very sorry, understand and know what you are enduring. Sadly, not being so well and frequently in need myself, at this time there is little I can do to relieve you or be of much help. Katie and I are very faithful in in speaking together and thinking of you, though. Wishing you ALL the very best.

From experience, I believe, and fear, your even mentioning these things here will further separate you from loved ones, though we wish you better than I received after a number of years in the work with time in our friends homes and conventions in Washington, Oregon, California, Idaho, Montana, North Dakota, South Dakota, Minnesota, Wisconsin Pennsylvania, Maryland, New Jersey, New York, Rhode Island, and Massachusettes in the USA, B.C. And Alberta in Canada, Germany, Holland, Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland in Europe, and 45 years of loyal dedicated participation in that fellowship.

When they perceive it will benefit themselves as an Overseer to put you out, that IS what will happen to you, and then they will see to it there is no return nor restoration for you. Since happening to me, I've met many others around the world who will attest to it happening to them also, and no restoration was ever accomplished, only more grief and sorrow.

May you receive better than I, even after breaking four bones in my lower back while in that work. Again, the only answer i could find is that teaching just ISN'T what as a third and forth generation participant I thought it to be. There simply is no other answer for me and those like us, most likely will go to our graves severed from those we love yet.

[minhthanh]

Dec 3, 2013 23:23:42 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

MinhThanh wrote: One time she & her younger companion disagreed together...

Do you know what the disagreement was about?
What country was the younger companion from?
How long ago did this happen?

It's passed...
I don't want to mention this matter again... because they are still in the work, we love them although we dislike what they are behaving with their companion..

Not only this young worker but also some others workers younger than M.H ... showing for us that they don't have the same thought or action in many ways. (they are Vietnamese, one is Korean)

[CherieKropp]

MT:  I understand and can appreciate your reluctance to talk further about the matter. 

[minhthanh]

One night... It about 7 PM...

While we were staying at my son house, to keep my grandson 5 month old for his parents to go out to a wedding...

I received a phone call from a brother friend saying: "Miss M.H met an accident, she's unconscious, she is in the emergency room of An Sinh hospital near your house. Please coming to see how she is... I try to contact with Doctor T and others, but coudn't..."



I transferred the baby to my husband, immediately rode the motorbike to the hospital. (My son's house not near that hospital as mine). With one hand driving, another hand I phoned to Doctor T, and some elders in their side, but couldn't !...

I was at the emergency room while she just revived but still didn't know what happened, and why she was being in the hospital...

It little hurt on her face, and very painful in one leg, couldn't move !... (Maybe her leg was cracked or broken I was afraid to touch.) Although the hospital warming her body with a light and a blanket she still felt very cold, I had to warm her by hands.

The doctor of hospital asked me to sign in a paper with my telephone number as her family relative.

She was very frightened with what happening to her (or frightened with my presence... I didn't know  )
She asked me many times... Please, please phone to doctor T (an elder also a well known doctor in Saigon) to let him know... I had phoned him but no answer.

Please phone to H.T, D.T, B.V... for me...(her elder friends) I tried many times for her, but couldn't contact them.

At last my father can contact  H.T successfully (a young elder) (My father was on his sickness bed at that time).
H.T came to the hospital immediately, together with me warming her very cold leg. Then doctor T and his wife coming.

Seeing not need for me to be there any more, I transferred the paper I had signed with the doctor as the hospital required to the young elder and back to my son's house. One sister friend rushed into the room... being surprised seeing me there among the other side friends. She asked me "Who inform you to come here?" I was smiling and answered "It's God".

I wondered why all the phone to friends was prevented but me. Maybe God want me to show my love, my care still with workers and friends as Jesus has taught in Bible, not shunning  others.
Back to my son's house, the baby was crying during the time I had left, and my husband was very tired nearly fainted (because he was still weak after a stroke). I returned  in time.

Her leg was cracking, she had to transfer to another hospital for an operation.
The reason she had accident was:
Sister M.H went to that hospital to visit Miss Lan (an old friend lady. I'll tell her story later  ) with two sister workers.  
After their visiting, two other sisters went to the super market, sister M.H felt tired, she wanted to return to the batch. 
She was fainted while she started her motorbike ( still in the hospital area, while two other sisters had gone away !...") The motorbike fell and pressed down on her leg. She fainted and people used her phone to contact her acquaintances.
Lucky for her... All in our mighty Father hand, his mercy and his love always take care His people, I do trust in Him...

[Deleted]

Dec 3, 2013 23:20:33 GMT -5 @virgo said:

Dec 3, 2013 16:05:37 GMT -5 sharingtheriches said:

Thanks, it is true that once we shed the old cloak of exclusive rhetoric and man made doctrine, and center ourselves up on the one that has the answers already written in the scripture....Jesus is our salvation for truth...HE IS the WAY, the truth and the Light! He also is the very depth of LOVE....He gave His life so that all of those whom He has created may dwell with Him eternally! That is the basis of the salvation from the beginning of the world.....

Now to the 2x2's losing their grasp and usuage of the the real "truth" in Jesus, we can look at the very beginning of the 2x2's....William Irvine wrote before his death that it had been a great experiment. And when we come to recognize the fact that the beginning workers wanted to see if by them going out 2x2 itinerant ministry would work in their day where there was so much dissatisfaction in the established churches. The workers did NOT start to make anything, but the success went to their head and with envy they then decided to wrap their converts up and they would keep control over them by tooth and nail....and so they continue trying to doing that.

There ARE some workers that do give effort to preach the gospel of Christ...and I'm glad for them, but I'm sure they're caught up in what every other worker is doing and what the ruling workers desire...that they just have to go along with them at times.

i don't why there seems to be difference in the fellowship by what is posted on this board but we have had nothing but [Jesus is our salvation for truth...HE IS the WAY, the truth and the Light! He also is the very depth of LOVE....He gave His life so that all of those whom He has created may dwell with Him eternally! That is the basis of the salvation from the beginning of the world.....] preached in our Gospel meetings or conventions with overseas workers and no rhetoric about exclusiveness or being only way and i have no recollection of it ever being said in my hearing neither do i read it in any notes i have or receive which are from around the world

Preaching is one thing, living it is another. You only have to examine the treatment of Steve Blubaugh and Gary Johnson to understand that it is no different where you are than in VN. How many of those great love preachers visited Gary when he needed them the most?

Name for me the workers and friends who could and did visit Gary in the depths of his poverty and illness, and I will name for you the workers and friends who have the real love of God within them.

[minhthanh]

Today I’m going to tell you THE WILL READY MADE BY OVERSEER

As I had mentioned Miss Lan two times in this board

First time in page 24 “She is the only one lady has name in the Chirstain Mission VN paper.”

Second time in page 25. “Miss M.H visit her at the hospital.”

She is over 80… and going U90… very weak and sickness in her body but her spirit still very strong. She loves workers and friends far and near, regardless which side they are in. Not only thinking but also helping workers and friends in their need too.

We all love her, when she stayed in the hospital, friends in both side visited her. The Golden friends came together and had good time with her, she laughed all the time during our visiting, she didn’t want to say goodbye with us.

More than a year ago, she asked my father to transfer her letter to uncle Hoa saying that If she pass away ,may uncle Hoa return back to Saigon leading her funeral service. She’ll pay all the airplane ticket if he is in the far places.

Receiving her letter, uncle Hoa replied immediately to her. that he would back for her funeral right away, whether where he was  no need to pay any money for the tickets.

Somehow uncle Lyle knows her will sent to uncle Hoa !... He and some workers in his staff, with the doctor T came to her house, explained many things for her to understand that she should change her mind and her will too.

Because according to Lyle.S letter saying uncle Hoa didn’t have any part in the work in VN. So how can he celebrate her funeral service…

We(LYle S &his staff) will celebrate  the funeral service.

After the conversation, Miss Lan (She is the only one in her family professed)had to rewrite another will,

saying that the overseer, workers, docter T and Mr Bau will work together to organise her funeral service. Also invite friends far and near coming on her last day.

With the note at the bottom “This will replace to the former will. “

Although she had not mentioned uncle Hoa in her new will, but they didn’t agree with her new will too…

You know the reason why? Her new will still has my father name in it !...

They asked her one more time, sent her a newer will that they ready made without my father name !...

Her answer was: “I cannot change what I have written… Mr& Mrs Bau is my very close & lovely friends more than 50 years.”

Till now the overseer will for her funeral service still with himself…

[snow]

Dec 4, 2013 16:02:16 GMT -5 NathanB said:

This is truly VERY sad indeed, the problem began 3 yrs ago with DT, and the new adm. have added more problems to the past issues... The Canadian workers need to get out of VN because the gulf is getting wider and wider with the golden friends Vs. the current friends and workers.... So, eventually it will come to point of no return to solve the problems in VN.

Chi minh Thanh, you're a wise sister... We appreciate your loving, tender care spirit of a shepherd. I wish you were the overseer in VN. You could get a lot of things moving, done in godly manner.

Nathan, if they are there illegally, why don't people just report them to the authorities. That would get rid of them from VN

[fixit]

I hope the Canadians do a better job of teaching English than running a church.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

[sharingtheriches]

Dec 3, 2013 20:46:33 GMT -5 minhthanh said:

Dec 3, 2013 11:41:35 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

MT:  Can you tell us what these sister workers were doing differently than they had in the past?

I just wanted uncle Châu remind them to have the lovely appearance as they had had before going into the work. Friendly, considerate to the friends and help them in their need, talking to friends to understand their situation if posible.... as they had in the past.
One old friend complained about 1 young sister worker that, when she hasn't gone to work, she is nice as her niece, every time coming to visit, she went into the kitchen to help. But now being a young worker she sit there as a boss, or talking with their range(workers with workers)... in spite of I'm so busy in the kitchen preparing food for serving them.
Now being a worker, it seems they enter in another class(or range)... No want to talk friendly to friends (even in the breaking time). Completely different with the  visitors from Philippine.
I had mentioned these things with uncle Dale and Darrel at the time they had meal at my home too.

Reminds me that this is carrying the words Jesus said to Martha that she was concerned about many good things, but Mary had chosen the better part. This is what some workers have said when friends have complained about having to wait on some young worker hand and foot.

Since the workers are spending most of their time tending to and seeing the friends on a continual basis, the serving of them has taken on a different face as far as the friends are concerned...what I'm getting at is that the friends are being forced to continually serve the workers....I know some of past years have said how tired they were after the workers had made their grand visits, this person had to work a long day 8-10 hrs. and then come home and cook and feed the workers and then clear up the dishes and pottery and then perhaps wash a load or two of clothes for the workers so they'd have clean clothes to put into their garment bags.

Yes, I'd had noted the last time I had sister workers, one was quite young...probably 2 or 3rd year out in the work...she never asked to help in anyway...well, for me it's kind of hard truthfully for more then one person to be in the kitchen cooking, but at the same times she could have set the table without getting into the way of the cooking...etc. Then they sat there visiting about 10 mins. and then they exited my home and went on to the next friend's house for the evening and night.....

Course to be honest, I don't expect the brother workers to help with cooking and cleaning the dishes/pottery, so maybe it isn't fair to expect the younger ones? Maybe that's the reason for the laying back of the younger workers.....?

[sharingtheriches]

Dec 3, 2013 23:20:33 GMT -5 @virgo said:

Dec 3, 2013 16:05:37 GMT -5 sharingtheriches said:

Thanks, it is true that once we shed the old cloak of exclusive rhetoric and man made doctrine, and center ourselves up on the one that has the answers already written in the scripture....Jesus is our salvation for truth...HE IS the WAY, the truth and the Light! He also is the very depth of LOVE....He gave His life so that all of those whom He has created may dwell with Him eternally! That is the basis of the salvation from the beginning of the world.....

Now to the 2x2's losing their grasp and usuage of the the real "truth" in Jesus, we can look at the very beginning of the 2x2's....William Irvine wrote before his death that it had been a great experiment. And when we come to recognize the fact that the beginning workers wanted to see if by them going out 2x2 itinerant ministry would work in their day where there was so much dissatisfaction in the established churches. The workers did NOT start to make anything, but the success went to their head and with envy they then decided to wrap their converts up and they would keep control over them by tooth and nail....and so they continue trying to doing that.

There ARE some workers that do give effort to preach the gospel of Christ...and I'm glad for them, but I'm sure they're caught up in what every other worker is doing and what the ruling workers desire...that they just have to go along with them at times.

i don't why there seems to be difference in the fellowship by what is posted on this board but we have had nothing but [Jesus is our salvation for truth...HE IS the WAY, the truth and the Light! He also is the very depth of LOVE....He gave His life so that all of those whom He has created may dwell with Him eternally! That is the basis of the salvation from the beginning of the world.....] preached in our Gospel meetings or conventions with overseas workers and no rhetoric about exclusiveness or being only way and i have no recollection of it ever being said in my hearing neither do i read it in any notes i have or receive which are from around the world

Virgo, I felt exactly the same as you did. Why would I feel that all I'd seen and heard or the workers was up front in the face of some real facts? I think it is because the stress of our religious life in our home WAS on our God and Saviour....so the things that are not of this simply fell on deaf ears....we didn't hear workers preach the system like we have heard in recent years. Even back in 2007 one of the sister workers in our area had gospel mtgs. in a small town near here and I listened to her explicitly! Every word out of her mouth was about the gospel of Jesus Christ. Now she didn't havew her companion with her at that time so a resting elderly sister helped...now this sister DID preach the dire need of people staying in the 2x2 religion...now she didn't say it exactly like that but she said that this wonderful way that has been since before the world is our salvation...going to mtg. is our salvation.....NOW there are 2 things there that she said that shouldn't be said like that in a gospel mission when the thrust of such a mtg. should be the gospel message that Jesus assigned to his apostles.

I've heard on conv. platform about people exiting the fellowship and how dire were their souls' future with not staying in the fellowship.

This is whagt I have heard over and over throughout the years...in that anyone not staying in the fellowship that they are just as lost as those outside the fellowship, etc.....if we don't stay within the fellowship we are doomed...for we are outside the will of God.

This statement of being outside the will of God is wrong for the will of God is what Jesus said...he told his Apostles to go all over the world preaching the gospel or the good news of salvation...that the Messiah has come and has died for all of mankind's sins...but no, the will of God as far as the majority of the fellowship is to them staying within the fellowhship.....which has nothing to do with opreaching the gospel of Jesus Christ....it become a gospel plus!

I have witnessed throughout the years the workers saying about an interested person(s) in the fellowship but the workers will say that they just don't get "it"! Now what is "it"? It is evident that the "it" is the understanding that the 2x2 itinerant workership and the mtgs. in the home.

Now Lyle's letter just a few months ago to Brandon were of this note. That Brandon did not get it that the 2x2's or the fellowship if you wish, thrust for their religious tenets were the 2x2 itinerant workers and the mtgs. in the home...NOT one word in there about Jesus.

This explains new converts or converts to be not getting "it".......

[sharingtheriches]

Dec 4, 2013 17:01:11 GMT -5 snow said:

Dec 4, 2013 16:02:16 GMT -5 NathanB said:

This is truly VERY sad indeed, the problem began 3 yrs ago with DT, and the new adm. have added more problems to the past issues... The Canadian workers need to get out of VN because the gulf is getting wider and wider with the golden friends Vs. the current friends and workers.... So, eventually it will come to point of no return to solve the problems in VN.

Chi minh Thanh, you're a wise sister... We appreciate your loving, tender care spirit of a shepherd. I wish you were the overseer in VN. You could get a lot of things moving, done in godly manner.

Nathan, if they are there illegally, why don't people just report them to the authorities. That would get rid of them from VN

I had wondered the same thing. Only we can see in accordance with other things the friends that are still under the auspices of the wrong overseer will not do anything of this fashion. I don't know if the golden friends would do it either....it would be something they would all be fearful of. Though it certainly would remove the ones that are bringing so much divisive matters into the small group of 2x2 fellowshippers in VN!

[déjà vu]

I believe some F&W adhere to the principal of the " greater good. "
like “ if we save a soul it is permissible to lie to the authorities "

[fixit]

Dec 4, 2013 20:34:21 GMT -5 déjà vu said:

I believe some F&W adhere to the principal of the " greater good. "
like “ if we save a soul it is permissible to lie to the authorities "

And its permissible to lose half the friends in Vietnam to bring the rest into submission to the overseers.

Sadly, friends and workers accepted Dale Shultz's doctrine in 1999 and I see the Vietnam saga as a consequence of that:

We could wonder why the support remains so solidly behind Willis and Jim, and it would be possible to advance a number of possible reasons. We know that this stand has been taken after hearing a number of concerns expressed from both workers and friends. I would just like to encourage you to accept this support that Willis and Jim have at the present time as a reality and to respect that decision because it comes from a group of men whom God has called and whom God is using in guiding his work in this part of the earth. If our attitude towards them becomes disrespectful, it is a reflection on our attitude towards God as well.

We realize that the fact that we are servants of God, or even very responsible servants of God, doesn't make us infallible. However, something that is very much a part of being a child of God is to respect those who are over us in the Lord, to pray for them, to obey them, to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. Their judgement may not always be right, but it is always right for us to respect that judgement and to work with it in the best way that we possibly can.

So, there are two possibilities regarding the decision of the overseers to maintain and support the status quo in Alberta. One possibility is that the decision is a right decision for the province. That would mean that they are seeing some things in the picture that some of us are missing when we look at it. Another possibility is that it was not the best decision for the province. But, whichever is the applicable possibility in this case, it does remain the right thing to respect that decision because of where it has come from and to work with it no matter what our own thoughts might be on the subject. This is a very practical area where we can exercise the teaching of 11 Corinthians 10:5, "- bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." We may think that we are "obeying men" and not "obeying Christ" when we submit to something that seems wrong to our own thinking. However, the scriptures teach so much about submission e.g. to the government of the land, wives to husbands, children to parents, the Lord's people to the ministry, etc. That teaching doesn't just apply when the governments, husbands, parents or workers are 100% on the right track, but it applies in a very comprehensive way. We also know that a point could be reached in these different relationships in which submission is generally expected where, because of some deep conviction before God, we would feel that we could not submit to something that is being asked of us. However, there is also great danger in "not submitting" and in taking a rebel attitude when the situation doesn't warrant that extreme position in God's mind.

So, I would like to encourage all of you to accept the present situation, knowing that quite a bit has been done to bring concerns to the attention of the overseers. The present situation remains in spite of these concerns having been very publicly expressed and drawn to the attention of the overseers. Whether the decision is right or wrong, the right thing for all of us is to respect it because of those who have made the judgement. If the decision is wrong, I am sure that the Lord will have ways of correcting that over time. He still is very much on the throne. In the final analysis, there are some things that we just have to leave in his hands. I believe that for anyone to try to force changes now, after all that has been done to bring issues into focus, that it could mean just being very much out of our place.

[fixit]

Dec 4, 2013 14:23:15 GMT -5 minhthanh said:

Today I’m going to tell you THE WILL READY MADE BY OVERSEER

As I had mentioned Miss Lan two times in this board

First time in page 24 “She is the only one lady has name in the Chirstain Mission VN paper.”

Second time in page 25. “Miss M.H visit her at the hospital.”

She is over 80… and going U90… very weak and sickness in her body but her spirit still very strong. She loves workers and friends far and near, regardless which side they are in. Not only thinking but also helping workers and friends in their need too.

We all love her, when she stayed in the hospital, friends in both side visited her. The Golden friends came together and had good time with her, she laughed all the time during our visiting, she didn’t want to say goodbye with us.

More than a year ago, she asked my father to transfer her letter to uncle Hoa saying that If she pass away ,may uncle Hoa return back to Saigon leading her funeral service. She’ll pay all the airplane ticket if he is in the far places.

Receiving her letter, uncle Hoa replied immediately to her. that he would back for her funeral right away, whether where he was  no need to pay any money for the tickets.

Somehow uncle Lyle knows her will sent to uncle Hoa !... He and some workers in his staff, with the doctor T came to her house, explained many things for her to understand that she should change her mind and her will too.

Because according to Lyle.S letter saying uncle Hoa didn’t have any part in the work in VN. So how can he celebrate her funeral service…

We(LYle S &his staff) will celebrate  the funeral service.

After the conversation, Miss Lan (She is the only one in her family professed)had to rewrite another will,

saying that the overseer, workers, docter T and Mr Bau will work together to organise her funeral service. Also invite friends far and near coming on her last day.

With the note at the bottom “This will replace to the former will. “

Although she had not mentioned uncle Hoa in her new will, but they didn’t agree with her new will too…

You know the reason why? Her new will still has my father name in it !...

They asked her one more time, sent her a newer will that they ready made without my father name !...

Her answer was: “I cannot change what I have written… Mr& Mrs Bau is my very close & lovely friends more than 50 years.”

Till now the overseer will for her funeral service still with him…

Thanks for sharing your story minhthanh.

I can think of no biblical reason for controlling workers to make such demands of a sick elderly saint.

The overseers are making the church more like the Catholic Church with its hierarchical domination.

[minhthanh]

Dec 4, 2013 16:02:16 GMT -5 NathanB said:

This is truly VERY sad indeed, the problem began 3 yrs ago with DT, and the new adm. have added more problems to the past issues... The Canadian workers need to get out of VN because the gulf is getting wider and wider with the golden friends Vs. the current friends and workers.... So, eventually it will come to point of no return to solve the problems in VN.

Chi minh Thanh, you're a wise sister... We appreciate your loving, tender care spirit of a shepherd. I wish you were the overseer in VN. You could get a lot of things moving, done in godly manner.

Hebrews 10:35 So do not throw away your confidence;

It is thing that I need today.

I am one year older than my next little sister, but when we were young, going to the same school, some people wondered if we were fraternal twins…But we were a little alike on the face, the appearance, the clothes ( my mother always made the clothes the same for her three daughters). Both of us together studied, together played, slept on the same bed…and had the same dream…being a worker of God. And we considered ourselves similar to the both workers uncle Fred and uncle Edwin.(at that time I didn’t know the price to attain that great wish). My little sister was lovely, tender and modest…otherwise I was stubborn, stiff-necked. Maybe my sister and I needed each other because we had different characteristics. One day we had seats side by side on a balcony to prepare lessons for the end of the year examination, suddenly my little sister fell from the balcony and passed away the day after. Her death has obsessed me until now. Grateful to the mercy of God for me, I have overcome many temptations and trials. So I want to live according to the wish of her heart and mine.

Not being able to be in the work of God, but I am still have opportunity to using my life to support workers as other brothers and sisters do. God gives each individual a talent, there are more than 10 elders willingly supporting Uncle Hoa to continue offering his sacrifice…bringing good news and peace to everybody. And these elders and friends do greater work than I do. Thanks to all workers and friends reading my confidences and praying for us.

[CherieKropp]

Minh Thanh wrote: Because according to Lyle.S letter saying uncle Hoa didn’t have any part in the work in VN. So how can he celebrate her funeral service…

Today, many funerals also called Memorial Services in America are held without a minister.  A minister is not required at a funeral...or a baptism.   

Friends & Family get together and tell their special memories, speak tributes; a video of photos of the person is played, favorite songs of the deceased may be sung or played.  These services are far more meaningful and comforting to the family and friends of the deceased--than the ones the workers preach...especially when the worker doesnt even mention the name of the deceased or anything about them; and especially when the worker doesnt know the deceased or anything about them; and ESPECIALLY when the workers merely preach a gospel meeting instead of a funeral. 

I've heard of workers sharing a funeral with other ministers--I attended one like this in KS. I've heard of some workers following family's wishes to open the floor for comments.  I attended a funeral in Texas of an ex2x2 couple's son that was held by a Conv ground owner.  Workers were told at 3 of our family funerals that this had better not be a gospel service, or...! (the service would be stopped). 

After a worker held a funeral I attended in California, for a (professing) mother, the professing daughter said she felt let down,  disappointed and didnt find the service comforting.  In fact I know of a fewl funerals workers held which were the catalyst for 2x2s leaving the meeting system; also some which caused the unprofessing family to be angry enough to insure they would never become a 2x2. 

Same way with baptisms...a minister isnt required.  A father of a child or other believer can do it.

Is it legal for Lyle or other foreign workers to hold a funeral for a native Vietnamese person?

How does Miss Lan's will stand currently...
Is the first one with Hoe presiding still good?
Or is the second one with Mr. Bau the one that is in force now?
Does her will leave money to the workers? Or is it just about her wishes concerning her funeral?

Sad to say, but in America and Canada, I've heard about some workers who have strongly encouraged and even prey on older friends to leave their money to the work & workers.  I heard of an incident in Idaho in 2011 involving an elderly bedfast lady.  Fortunately, her daughter had Power of Attorney and total control of her purse strings. Eldon Tenniswood even had a codicil already made up for the person to use.   Read  the Codicil on TTT:   Money, Wills and Estates


Admin: corrected sentence "Is is legal for Lyle or other foreign workers to hold a funeral for a native Vietnamese person?"

[fixit]

Dec 5, 2013 12:09:23 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

Sad to say, but in America and Canada, I've heard about some workers who have strongly encouraged and even prey on older friends to leave their money to the work & workers.  I heard of an incident in Idaho this past year involving an elderly bedfast lady.  Fortunately, her daughter had Power of Attorney and total control of her purse strings. Eldon Tenniswood even had a codicil already made up for the person to use.   Read  the Codicil on TTT:   Money, Wills and Estates

I think too much money has done more harm than good and way too much emphasis is put on the convention system.

For what?

I doubt that workers and friends today are any closer to God than they were 50 years ago or 100 years ago when money was scarce and travel was difficult.

If the funding for globe-trotting workers dried up, would the ministry and fellowship be any worse off?