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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2013 5:12:44 GMT -5
Agreed, and you've been allowed to do that. All are not as fortunate as revealed by their circumstances, even in Vietnam. Nonetheless, there are benefits to almost all experiences in life though not easily seen at the time...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2013 6:58:40 GMT -5
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Post by CherieKropp on Dec 2, 2013 9:35:16 GMT -5
Minh Thanh wrote: Yes, that's right. When uncle Châu returns home, he will face with an extremely difficult situation... Not only for both side but also with the law of the government about these foreigner workers.
MT: Can you explain to us how/why there will be an extremely difficult situation? Thank you.
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Dec 2, 2013 10:12:44 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2013 10:12:44 GMT -5
Fixit asked me... Do you know Michael Thorsteinson? We had an American brother named Mike Thorsteinson... He knew many things happening because he labored in VN many years and also accompanied with D.T too. He disagreed with some deeds of D.T and also with uncle Lyle letter, too. One time uncle Hoa had suggested to overseers in his letter that. We wanted brother Mike to be our overseer, and we will support him in that duty. (Mike had a tender heart, sweet love, humble in his words and his action too. We do love him...) As I had said, just some of young workers rolled into overseer works, caused a lot of problem... There are still very good workers, but they keep silent because of the system. Now turn back to brother Mike. More than 1 years ago... We heard that Mike had to left VN... All the friends felt very sad, we didn't know the reason why ...  One Sunday, after the meeting a couple asked uncle Lyle about this. His answer was "There are a letter from friends sent to the government to inform Mike's illegal stay, so he had to leave..." The wife (also sister of a young sister worker and my relative) asked him. "Do you see and read that paper personally by your eyes ?" Of course not... From that time the couple with their children didn't go to the fellowship with them any more !... The made-up story exactly the same with what my niece spoke out to my parent when she visited them. My father very angry and said to his grand daughter "Shut your mouth... You should only come here to visit us, don't build up story". If we wanted to denounce to the government... we should have sent the Canadian's name first. Uncle Mike is a very good companion with uncle Hoa... When we read in the list of the worker's field in 2010. It was Uncle Mike and uncle Chau together. We all said "Two tender workers go together... But unfortunate for uncle Chau... He has chase out in the beginning of that year. We don't know where uncle Mike labor now, maybe in Laos... I do miss him, uncle Mike stay with us some time... during the special meetings. That's all for today... Tomorrow I will tell you our local worker Hoa... I have heard that MikeT is a good person and it is too bad you lost him in VN. LyleS was not in VN to repair things as you now realize, he was only there to protect the power of the foreign overseers. They think that is what is necessary to bring peace but they could not be more wrong. Lyle's story about Mike's departure may be true (although I can't be sure). The reason I say that is that I was told this year that MorrisG had to go to Laos because of "trouble" in VN. I wasn't told what the trouble was, but I was under the impression that it had to do with his visa, so it is possible that the VN government got a letter about Morris too. Again, I can't be sure about this, but it is possible. Foreign workers should not enter VN under any false pretenses. The government should know what they are doing there even if it does cause difficulties for entering the country. The first step to a solution for the split of the friends is for all foreign workers to leave the country except those who are in the country legally and who are willing to be equal to or under the direction of a VN companion. There should be no foreign workers in any position of making decisions for others. |
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Dec 2, 2013 10:41:57 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 2, 2013 10:41:57 GMT -5
Hoa's birthday! Many happy returns to Hoa on this 73 rd birthday! |
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Dec 2, 2013 10:52:19 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2013 10:52:19 GMT -5
Agreed, and you've been allowed to do that. All are not as fortunate as revealed by their circumstances, even in Vietnam. Nonetheless, there are benefits to almost all experiences in life though not easily seen at the time... As Paul would say 'all things (which includes the hard things) work together for good for those who love God and are called according to His purpose.' It has been such a joy to meet and enjoy fellowship with those outside of this particular way of doing things, something my husband would never have thought possible until our recent hard patch in this way. He sees the benefit of the experience now, but he sure didn't at the time! |
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Dec 2, 2013 10:52:57 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 2, 2013 10:52:57 GMT -5
Fixit asked me... Do you know Michael Thorsteinson? We had an American brother named Mike Thorsteinson... He knew many things happening because he labored in VN many years and also accompanied with D.T too. He disagreed with some deeds of D.T and also with uncle Lyle letter, too. One time uncle Hoa had suggested to overseers in his letter that. We wanted brother Mike to be our overseer, and we will support him in that duty. (Mike had a tender heart, sweet love, humble in his words and his action too. We do love him...) As I had said, just some of young workers rolled into overseer works, caused a lot of problem... There are still very good workers, but they keep silent because of the system. Now turn back to brother Mike. More than 1 years ago... We heard that Mike had to left VN... All the friends felt very sad, we didn't know the reason why ... One Sunday, after the meeting a couple asked uncle Lyle about this. His answer was "There are a letter from friends sent to the government to inform Mike's illegal stay, so he had to leave..." The wife (also sister of a young sister worker and my relative) asked him. "Do you see and read that paper personally by your eyes ?" Of course not... From that time the couple with their children didn't go to the fellowship with them any more !... The made-up story exactly the same with what my niece spoke out to my parent when she visited them. My father very angry and said to his grand daughter "Shut your mouth... You should only come here to visit us, don't build up story". If we wanted to denounce to the government... we should have sent the Canadian's name first. Uncle Mike is a very good companion with uncle Hoa... When we read in the list of the worker's field in 2010. It was Uncle Mike and uncle Chau together. We all said "Two tender workers go together... But unfortunate for uncle Chau... He has chase out in the beginning of that year. We don't know where uncle Mike labor now, maybe in Laos... I do miss him, uncle Mike stay with us some time... during the special meetings. That's all for today... Tomorrow I will tell you our local worker Hoa... I have heard that MikeT is a good person and it is too bad you lost him in VN. LyleS was not in VN to repair things as you now realize, he was only there to protect the power of the foreign overseers. They think that is what is necessary to bring peace but they could not be more wrong. Lyle's story about Mike's departure may be true (although I can't be sure). The reason I say that is that I was told this year that MorrisG had to go to Laos because of "trouble" in VN. I wasn't told what the trouble was, but I was under the impression that it had to do with his visa, so it is possible that the VN government got a letter about Morris too. Again, I can't be sure about this, but it is possible. Foreign workers should not enter VN under any false pretenses. The government should know what they are doing there even if it does cause difficulties for entering the country. The first step to a solution for the split of the friends is for all foreign workers to leave the country except those who are in the country legally and who are willing to be equal to or under the direction of a VN companion. There should be no foreign workers in any position of making decisions for others. CD, I am suspicious that the overseers of the Western world is into some kind of holding status quo and they are entering into the foreign fields doing their best to keep their thumbs on the converts/workers...... I also have some fear that the Vietnamese that have willingly written on TMB about their problems and sorrows, that it may make things get worse for them. We know about others who have suffered great pressures, excommunications and general questioning of their part in the 2x2 religion. It's almost like Satan has a stronghold in the present day head workers.....the pain that people are suffering almost in every country from what the ruling workers are doing are NOT doing, is appaling......I am very fearful of what out dear friends in VN are facing! Chau perhaps is facing legal ramifications in regard to leaving VN and leaving someone else to oversee the 2x2 Christian missions in VN......as he was mentioned as the head of the movement from some years ago! The friends who are writing to these foreign governments at the behest of some of the workers who are bringing the government down on their heads will reap a horrible reward doing these things......there will come a time when all these dark fruits will be brought to light and the amount of dark fruits seen about everywhere we look at the 2x2 fellowship and workership is leaving some of us aghast that such evil could be found within the 2x2 religion! We've been taught that good morals were almost an automatic thing within the members of the 2x2 church.....but that too, is a lie and I don't meant that every one within the 2x2 religion is a bad person or behaving wrong.....it's just that there is far more dark fruits of the church is being brought out to the light. Again, as my Gram used to say it is better to face up to our sins and misdeeds this side of the grave....I believe her! |
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Dec 2, 2013 11:11:05 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Dec 2, 2013 11:11:05 GMT -5
Hello, Everybody! I am a new member here. My name is Duyên Thơ, 50 years old. I live in Saigon. I am Uncle Chau's niece. I professed when I was young. I stopped 20 years ago. Now I want to return to God's way to worship. Sadly, I don't see the nice, loving atmosphere I enjoyed in the past any more. I am interesting this board because I can know the problem of this system anywhere in the world so I want to worship God with my sincere heart and the truth in the Bible. Welcome to TMB, Duyen Tho. We're glad you've joined our discussion. Please tell us more about yourself. I highly recommend an international Bible Study group I attended in America It's Bible Study Fellowship, and there is a day class for women in Saigon. I learned so very much about the Bible from going to this class 2.5 hours a week for 7 years. www.bsfinternational.org/locate-a-class1Cherie |
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Dec 2, 2013 11:21:04 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2013 11:21:04 GMT -5
I have heard that MikeT is a good person and it is too bad you lost him in VN. LyleS was not in VN to repair things as you now realize, he was only there to protect the power of the foreign overseers. They think that is what is necessary to bring peace but they could not be more wrong. Lyle's story about Mike's departure may be true (although I can't be sure). The reason I say that is that I was told this year that MorrisG had to go to Laos because of "trouble" in VN. I wasn't told what the trouble was, but I was under the impression that it had to do with his visa, so it is possible that the VN government got a letter about Morris too. Again, I can't be sure about this, but it is possible. Foreign workers should not enter VN under any false pretenses. The government should know what they are doing there even if it does cause difficulties for entering the country. The first step to a solution for the split of the friends is for all foreign workers to leave the country except those who are in the country legally and who are willing to be equal to or under the direction of a VN companion. There should be no foreign workers in any position of making decisions for others. CD, I am suspicious that the overseers of the Western world is into some kind of holding status quo and they are entering into the foreign fields doing their best to keep their thumbs on the converts/workers...... I also have some fear that the Vietnamese that have willingly written on TMB about their problems and sorrows, that it may make things get worse for them. We know about others who have suffered great pressures, excommunications and general questioning of their part in the 2x2 religion. It's almost like Satan has a stronghold in the present day head workers.....the pain that people are suffering almost in every country from what the ruling workers are doing are NOT doing, is appaling......I am very fearful of what out dear friends in VN are facing! Chau perhaps is facing legal ramifications in regard to leaving VN and leaving someone else to oversee the 2x2 Christian missions in VN......as he was mentioned as the head of the movement from some years ago! The friends who are writing to these foreign governments at the behest of some of the workers who are bringing the government down on their heads will reap a horrible reward doing these things......there will come a time when all these dark fruits will be brought to light and the amount of dark fruits seen about everywhere we look at the 2x2 fellowship and workership is leaving some of us aghast that such evil could be found within the 2x2 religion! We've been taught that good morals were almost an automatic thing within the members of the 2x2 church.....but that too, is a lie and I don't meant that every one within the 2x2 religion is a bad person or behaving wrong.....it's just that there is far more dark fruits of the church is being brought out to the light. Again, as my Gram used to say it is better to face up to our sins and misdeeds this side of the grave....I believe her! No need to be suspicious about the status quo. The status quo is the primary objective of every overseer and almost every worker. As far as Chau goes, I am hoping and expecting that he will come out of this ok, but he will almost certainly be expected to name every foreign worker in the country and there could be a full expulsion of them, particularly those whose visa applications do not match their activities (which could lead to jail before expulsion). That said, Chau could face some persecution. A new decree that went into effect in January 2013 adds a lot of restrictions. One is that it restricts travel of Vietnamese clergy to other countries, which is probably the basis on which Chau is being recalled to Vietnam. The advantage that Chau has over other groups is that the friends group is so small, only 300 friends before they split almost in half. It is unlikely that the government would see this small group as a potential political threat, considering it has been registered for as much as 45 years and still only has no more than 300 adherents, none of whom would have any history of anti-government activities. There are church groups in VN which have sub-groups agitating for more freedoms and other changes, and those are the ones who will get the most attention from the government. There won't be anything like that among the friends going on there. |
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Dec 2, 2013 11:30:10 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 2, 2013 11:30:10 GMT -5
thanks, CD! I will continue praying for them and a special plea for Chau....bless his heart he was caused to do what he did and the foreign workers need to be honest to the government that they were the ones who sent him out of the country and they can probably be honest in saying they didn't know or think of that law regarding native workers/preachers.
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Dec 2, 2013 12:48:27 GMT -5
Post by quizzer on Dec 2, 2013 12:48:27 GMT -5
Hoa's birthday! Many happy returns to Hoa on this 73 rd birthday! I pray that Hoa's health will hold up for all that he has ahead of him. |
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Dec 2, 2013 13:20:33 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Dec 2, 2013 13:20:33 GMT -5
From what I've read, some VN churches are registered locally and some nationally. Wonder which type registration the VN workers have?Estimates of the number of Protestants ranged from government figures of one million to claims by churches of more than two million The Vietnam Government Committee for Religious Affairs (CRA) governs religions and churches. The Government deepened implementation of its 2004 Ordinance on Religion and Belief and supplemental decrees on religious policy issued in 2005. Here are some things it covers... Wiki: Undeclared missionaries from several countries are active in the country. Foreign missionaries legally are not permitted to proselytize or perform religious activities. The instruction also directs local officials to allow unregistered "house churches" to operate so long as they are "committed to follow regulations" and are not affiliated with separatist political movements. The VN Government allows travel for religious purposes, but the approval of authorities is required for participation in religious conferences and training courses abroad. Article 35 of Decree 22 requires government approval for foreign missionary groups to proselytize. Such activities should take place under the sponsorship of a national or local religious organization. It discourages public proselytizing outside of recognized worship centers, including by citizens. Some missionaries visited the country despite this official prohibition and carried on informal proselytizing activities. Government policy does not permit persons who belong to unofficial religious groups to speak publicly about their beliefs, but some continued to conduct religious training and services without harassment. Members of registered religious organizations are permitted to speak about their beliefs and attempt to persuade others to adopt their religions in recognized places of worship but are discouraged from doing so elsewhere. Religious affiliation is indicated on citizens' national identification cards and in "family books," which are household identification documents. In practice, many citizens who consider themselves religious do not indicate this on their identification cards, and government statistics list them as nonreligious. www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/2007/90159.htmIt also governs church buildings, and teaching religion in schools, etc., which I didnt post. |
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Dec 2, 2013 19:20:40 GMT -5
Post by minhthanh on Dec 2, 2013 19:20:40 GMT -5
Our government has duty to keep the peace for the country. The policeman officer , who has duty about religion very closely monitoring any activity of the churches. I met him two times at my house, he visited uncle Hoa for hearing uncle Hoa met accident, broken the leg. He showed his respect to our local workers, because their work just wanted to bring The Love of God to our people from near and far, without any political activity... Somehow, it seemed he knew all the names and the places of the foreigners, because he had asked uncle Châu one time.
What I am doing here just want to let everybody know that nothing can hide the authorities, they are just waiting for their reasonable time. Our nation law is very clear for the religion activity, and very suitable for our local workers labor for The Truth.
One time, The officer asked one of my friend something (That the way they work, and everyone has to be sincere and responsible with their answer). "Why your religion do not obey the teaching in the Bible " We are shame to hear this from unbeliever.
Romans 13
Submission to Governing Authorities
13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.
As I had promised... today i'm going to tell you how about my local worker Hoa continuing his labor for God work in VN now.
Yes we just celebrated his 73rd birthday among our friends after Wednesday studying Bible meeting. He was not familiar with the celebration like this, but being happy and appreciating all the food which friends brought to share together. (Just 16 friends in the fellowship that night).
We have do all these things because we really have high respect for what he has been working for The Truth in VN till now.
My father composed a poem for Him... in Vietnamese... we translated into English but of course it could not bring the whole meaning.
Có một tớ trung tuổi đã già, There’s an old loyal God’s servant.
Nhưng đầy nhiệt huyết rất xông pha But full enthusiasm, rushing in the field.
Tìm chiên thất lạc không ngần ngại. To seek the wandering sheep, without hesitant.
Vượt núi băng đèo đến đảo xa. Crossing the hill, delta to the far island.
Lời giảng của anh rất thiết tha, His preaching are so real passionately.
Có hồn, có chất, có thần Cha. Have soul, capability and The Father Spirit.
Ai nghe, ai thấy đều khâm phục. Everyone admire him when they hear and see.
Tôi ngắm đời anh, tựa đóa HOA I thought he is a very beautiful FLOWER lyly.
Composed by Nguyễn Hữu Báu on Uncle Hoa 73th Birthday
Our two local workers not only have good behavior in manner, but also have a very special name was given by their parents.
Nguyễn Thành Hoa. (Nguyễn is family name, Thành Hoa is become a flower)
Vũ Ngọc Châu (Vũ is family name, Ngọc Châu is a pearl)
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Dec 2, 2013 22:13:49 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by gecko45 on Dec 2, 2013 22:13:49 GMT -5
Michael Thorsteinson is a wonderful, caring man. He is a great example of what a servant of God ought to be.
However he is not a healthy man. This past summer he was on a western convention tour and had to decline speaking a time or two.
From what we were told he returned from SE Asia solely for health reasons.
Morris had visa problems, from what one worker commented on the matter it would seem that he was simply negligent in renewing to many times. They seemed perhaps a little annoyed with him for this simple oversight.
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Dec 2, 2013 23:10:47 GMT -5
Post by Sylvestra on Dec 2, 2013 23:10:47 GMT -5
Edy, do you (or anyone else?) know if the incorporation of their religion in Sweden at WP's somewhat hidden hand, has EVER been renounced as it was in Canada? Edgar, do you know? |
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Dec 2, 2013 23:31:32 GMT -5
Post by Sylvestra on Dec 2, 2013 23:31:32 GMT -5
Chau is a tough place, right now because he's no longer in charge like he and Hoa callings all the shots before. The "golden time" friends want his help but he is under the control of the Current adm. so, he must fit in whatever they have planned for him. Chau is going back to VN in January! His hands are tied. Some of the friends and workers listen to the Current Adm. and pay a little attention to Chau's advices. May God direct Chau's steps on how to handle the situation in VN without getting into hot water. Perhaps, many of the friends don't understand Chau's difficult position. I pray that God will step in and fix things up... it seems many workers and the friends have tried and are NOT able to solve it yet.
The "golden time" friends
Thank you to call us like this, because we still keep on our very precious thing "The Love and the Unity of God among us... in the golden time till now..."
Yes, that's right. When uncle Châu returns home, he will face with an extremely difficult situation... Not only for both side but also with the law of the government about these foreigner workers. He do love the workers, the friends... Because in the past (Before the Canadian workers coming) we all leading under the Spirit of God. We love each others, we unite in serving God, and sharing joy or sorrow... He is still keeping on their system because of the soul of many friends and workers.
We all pray for him. He is tied in their rule now... (I will prove you later). But I do believe GOD still control... with all HIS POWER will cut off all the strings... and fix thing for us.
The purpose I'm being here as my friend required just let you can see the true image. I say the truth I don't be afraid because the truth just one. (Maybe some one who involve with this problem, dislike with true things I have posted here.) If this is true, it seems as it Chau holds the trump card in the game the workers are playing, since he's the registered Overseer of the Church in Vietnam. He's higher up than the Canadian workers. Sorry to hear Chau may be in trouble with the authorities, however... Anyone know the name in which the church is registered? Registered as opposed to incorporated? Does registering give the "covering" of the meetings to the government as an incorporation does? |
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Dec 2, 2013 23:57:06 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2013 23:57:06 GMT -5
You were told this: Michael Thorsteinson is a wonderful, caring man. He is a great example of what a servant of God ought to be. However he is not a healthy man. This past summer he was on a western convention tour and had to decline speaking a time or two. From what we were told he returned from SE Asia solely for health reasons. Minh Thanh tells us this: Those are two very different stories. |
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Post by minhthanh on Dec 3, 2013 4:01:49 GMT -5
Minh Thanh wrote: Yes, that's right. When uncle Châu returns home, he will face with an extremely difficult situation... Not only for both side but also with the law of the government about these foreigner workers. MT: Can you explain to us how/why there will be an extremely difficult situation? Thank you. : I'm sure that, the system will not permit uncle Châu to contact with us (The Golden friends). And with the government too, they are asking him to return !... With them he is still the leading of the Church in VN, not any foreign overseer !... And uncle Châu have responsibility with any activity of the church in VN. We had a real experience recently, when I and my husband went to Australia in September, to celebrate 100 years The foundation of my GIA LONG High School, with the gathering of teachers & friends all over the world. We too happy to be there, because by this chance we could visit our lovely uncle Edwin, and some of our friends we had contacted with for decades. (It is not easy for Vietnamese people to get a visa enter Australia). We contacted Uncle Châu, and his sister (also my teacher) in USA, planning the time we would meet at Brisbane, Queensland. A couple there welcome us to their home, and we informed them the time we arrived... They also gave us their address and telephone number too. But at last we had to cancel everything (Lost a lot money because we already bought the airplane ticket) after Uncle Lyle.S asked my sister about my trip to Australia. One Australia friend came to my home one week later.. said to me... Maybe next time !... you can come to visit us and uncle Edwin. (It hardly for us to be there one more time... and meet uncle Edwin, He is very old now. !) Couldn't go to Queensland, we emailed to uncle Châu that we wanted to buy the airplane ticket for him to Sydney (Invite him to our gathering), or we would go to visit him at Adelaide where he is staying. But he refused with the reason... "I'll get trouble if I meet you". I asked him to give me the telephone number or email address of the overseer there, for me to contact with... But he refused too... Many Vietnamese friends were surprised and question me the reason why we couldn't meet uncle Châu, while we went to Australia. It will be the same if he come back to VN under the authority of overseer. He will not be able to contact with The Golden friends. I post here the letter from my very lovely friend in Queensland. Dear Minh Thanh and Hoan
How wonderful that you may come to Australia!!
I notice the celebration is from the 20th september to the 3rd October, and you will be visiting NSW and QLD. It would be a wonderful experience for you to come, just as I had a wonderful time in Vietnam.
Let us know the dates when you will be in Brisbane. Will you have accomodation provided, or can you stay with us? We have a spare bedroom with a double bed you can stay in? And I can take you to see Uncle Edwin who is having a mission only on the other side of Brisbane, about 10 km away, so it is easily arranged.My father and mother only live about 4km away, it takes about 1 hour to walk or 10 minutes in the car.
I think you should say YES as I would love to see you again. But the decision is yours, financially.
Please keep me up to date with your plans.
Our family are well. A few changes – my son Timothy and family have moved to 1 hour drive away and my daughter leaves next week to live in Tasmania(about a 3 hour flight) so I don’t see my grandsons so often – that is what happens in life – it is always changing.
Hope you are all well.
Love from R. |
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Post by minhthanh on Dec 3, 2013 4:42:54 GMT -5
7 hours ago gecko45 said: Michael Thorsteinson is a wonderful, caring man. He is a great example of what a servant of God ought to be. However he is not a healthy man. This past summer he was on a western convention tour and had to decline speaking a time or two. From what we were told he returned from SE Asia solely for health reasons. Minh Thanh tells us this: Now turn back to brother Mike. More than 1 years ago... We heard that Mike had to left VN... All the friends felt very sad, we didn't know the reason why ... One Sunday, after the meeting a couple asked uncle Lyle about this. His answer was "There are a letter from friends sent to the government to inform Mike's illegal stay, so he had to leave..." Those are two very different stories. Michael Thorsteinson stay with us sometimes, full of love, joy and understanding... The sad situation in VN not only destroy his health but also destroy many others soul and health... (The reason uncle Lyle said to my relative about Mike leaving, just in purpose to make friends doubt and more divided among friends in VN. Many old friends day and night praying for restoring the love, the unity among the church in VN as we had had in the golden time, before they pass away. However some young workers preaching that " The past belong to the devil...! " When we asked them: "Where in The Bible saying "The past belong to the devil !". We met trouble with uncle Lyle because of this question to the young worker... He said to us that :The fellowship couldn't open in my home again because we do not support to the young worker !... (Because of my husband had stroke, they took this chance to stop the fellowship meeting in my home.) How can we support for them, if their message is not written in the Bible...!... |
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Post by fixit on Dec 3, 2013 4:54:03 GMT -5
We too happy to be there, because by this chance we could visit our lovely uncle Edwin, and some of our friends we had contacted with for decades. (It is not easy for Vietnamese people to get a visa enter Australia). We contacted Uncle Châu, and his sister (also my teacher) in USA, planning the time we would meet at Brisbane, Queensland. A couple there welcome us to their home, and we informed them the time we arrived... They also gave us their address and telephone number too. But at last we had to cancel everything (Lost a lot money because we already bought the airplane ticket) after Uncle Lyle.S asked my sister about my trip to Australia. One Australia friend came to my home one week later.. said to me... Maybe next time !... you can come to visit us and uncle Edwin. (It hardly for us to be there one more time... and meet uncle Edwin, He is very old now. !) This is so sad for Uncle Edwin! He must wonder how the ministry got to be so far from the spirit of Christ. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2013 7:06:42 GMT -5
This is so sad for Uncle Edwin! He must wonder how the ministry got to be so far from the spirit of Christ.
Many of us across the entire world have wondered the same thing. For some of us the only answer and thus reason for this type of thing is quite simple: "it isn't what has been so idealistcally taught, and as first carried to any site by ourself or any other. It is now belief the BEING, ' Yahu'shuah ' (meaning "God-Savior) is Himself The Way, Truth, and Life, rather than any works based religious teaching."
Upon understanding this, all humanity is considered redeemable by HIM, and those of us believing this no longer restrict our thinking as to whom is, or is not, saved in believing such a thing, as all who do become our brothers and sisters in such belief. Then every individual chooses for themselves (and not for any other) how to embrace the non-essentials, previously believed so ESSENTIAL for love and fellowship with anyone else. For me, and now I know many believing as I ALSO have been forced to reconsider and believe: this is what really is the true good news of the account of "Yahu'shuah" which brings great love, joy and an eventual peace in such turning to The Lord. |
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Vietnam
Dec 3, 2013 11:41:35 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Dec 3, 2013 11:41:35 GMT -5
Back to beginning when the Canadian workers came... We never know there is a position in God Way : "OVERSEER"
We just hearing that the younger worker will obey the older... And we are the friends obey the workers... And the workers are under the leading of Holy Spirit and live as Jesus teach in The Bible.
One day I asked Uncle Châu gave advice to some young sister workers... Because their appearance not like sister workers in the past.
The answer I receive from uncle Châu just "Now they do not obey my advice any more, they just obey Darrel T. You may speak direct to him..."
Day by day we know that there is a power upon us by OVERSEER !!!.
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Vietnam
Dec 3, 2013 12:09:45 GMT -5
Post by CherieKropp on Dec 3, 2013 12:09:45 GMT -5
Normally, the workers claim they don't take a name for their fellowship, since Jesus didn't give a name for his teachings. Not having a name is one of their doctrines. When some F&Ws have discovered that the workers have registered a name in some countries has caused some to leave the fellowship. Do the VN workers teach possible converts or in gospel meetings that their group does not have a name? Shunning those who leave the fellowship has been a policy for a long time. It probably first started with John Long, then Wm Irvine, the founder. Here is Jack Carroll speaking about how should those who leave the fellowship be treated? Fellowship of the Family of God. (JC was one of the very early workers, and was overseer of the Western USA--which place Dale Shultz holds today) Off the top of my head I can think of these they shunned these: John Long. Wm Irvine, Ed Cooney, Friends involved in the Alberta fiasco, Joe Kerr, Willie Cleland, --there are many more--TLCers feel free to add to the list. |
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Vietnam
Dec 3, 2013 12:57:02 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2013 12:57:02 GMT -5
Cherie, once you posted words to the effect that now you were not trying to get anyone to leave that fellowship, rather to educate so all could truly make an informed decision regarding the factual historical data of their 2&2 preacher developed belief. Am I correct in believing that remains true for you? It impressed an important core value upon me of something I highly agreed with and also sought (and continue to seek) to accomplish.
For myself, I am not trying to get anyone to grow anywhere but where they believe themselves planted: only to grow mightily in the Lord, His love and all accompanying goodness, escaping works based and focused religious teaching, rather a "new life" superiour to all that might precede it...
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Vietnam
Dec 3, 2013 14:44:07 GMT -5
Post by stargazer on Dec 3, 2013 14:44:07 GMT -5
Cherie, once you posted words to the effect that now you were not trying to get anyone to leave that fellowship, rather to educate so all could truly make an informed decision regarding the factual historical data of their 2&2 preacher developed belief. Am I correct in believing that remains true for you? It impressed an important core value upon me of something I highly agreed with and also sought (and continue to seek) to accomplish.
For myself, I am not trying to get anyone to grow anywhere but where they believe themselves planted: only to grow mightily in the Lord, His love and all accompanying goodness, escaping works based and focused religious teaching, rather a "new life" superiour to all that might precede it... Surely, you must concede, though, that the ongoing and gifted expression and persuasive emphasis of pain in your words and strong, persuasive emphasis of your disappointment is not without influence in spite of intent. |
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Dec 3, 2013 15:03:34 GMT -5
Post by snow on Dec 3, 2013 15:03:34 GMT -5
Cherie, once you posted words to the effect that now you were not trying to get anyone to leave that fellowship, rather to educate so all could truly make an informed decision regarding the factual historical data of their 2&2 preacher developed belief. Am I correct in believing that remains true for you? It impressed an important core value upon me of something I highly agreed with and also sought (and continue to seek) to accomplish.
For myself, I am not trying to get anyone to grow anywhere but where they believe themselves planted: only to grow mightily in the Lord, His love and all accompanying goodness, escaping works based and focused religious teaching, rather a "new life" superiour to all that might precede it... Surely, you must concede, though, that the ongoing and gifted expression and persuasive emphasis of pain in your words and strong, persuasive emphasis of your disappointment is not without influence in spite of intent. While I agree with this, it can be said of most people who are passionate about their beliefs. They will always be able to influence through their words whether that is their intent or not. I am passionate about not believing in a negative message that most religions give out. I know that comes across in my posts even though I know my beliefs are not right for others just because they are right for me. Once we speak, or type, or even are watched in life, we make a statement that could influence others without us even knowing never mind it being our intent. |
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Vietnam
Dec 3, 2013 15:54:07 GMT -5
Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2013 15:54:07 GMT -5
Stargazer, if that is how you perceive it, then that is how it is for you, intended or not. Yes, I DO want others to know the grief and pain such beliefs, when resulting in excommunication, and shunning, even disinheritance, often bring (on an intended basis) to those receiving it. If that comes through my posts though not intended to make ANYONE quit only know that which is really true about 2&2 preacher doctrine, then so be it. Surely people can recognize when something is really true with regard to such things, would you not think?
Yes, snow, even stargazer's posts have their effect, intended or not, as have all who post here.
Now then, just finished making a big pot of medium hot chili with finely sliced beef stake cut and diced and cooked in the pressure cooker. Wish someone from here lived close enough to share it with tonight. Nothing fancy, however, I like it now and then and so does Katie who gets home later tonight.
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Dec 3, 2013 16:05:37 GMT -5
Post by sharingtheriches on Dec 3, 2013 16:05:37 GMT -5
This is so sad for Uncle Edwin! He must wonder how the ministry got to be so far from the spirit of Christ.
Upon understanding this, all humanity is considered redeemable by HIM, and those of us believing this no longer restrict our thinking as to whom is, or is not, saved in believing such a thing, as all who do become our brothers and sisters in such belief. Then every individual chooses for themselves (and not for any other) how to embrace the non-essentials, previously believed so ESSENTIAL for love and fellowship with anyone else. For me, and now I know many believing as I ALSO have been forced to reconsider and believe: this is what really is the true good news of the account of "Yahu'shuah" which brings great love, joy and an eventual peace in such turning to The Lord. Thanks, it is true that once we shed the old cloak of exclusive rhetoric and man made doctrine, and center ourselves up on the one that has the answers already written in the scripture....Jesus is our salvation for truth...HE IS the WAY, the truth and the Light! He also is the very depth of LOVE....He gave His life so that all of those whom He has created may dwell with Him eternally! That is the basis of the salvation from the beginning of the world..... Now to the 2x2's losing their grasp and usuage of the the real "truth" in Jesus, we can look at the very beginning of the 2x2's....William Irvine wrote before his death that it had been a great experiment. And when we come to recognize the fact that the beginning workers wanted to see if by them going out 2x2 itinerant ministry would work in their day where there was so much dissatisfaction in the established churches. The workers did NOT start to make anything, but the success went to their head and with envy they then decided to wrap their converts up and they would keep control over them by tooth and nail....and so they continue trying to doing that. There ARE some workers that do give effort to preach the gospel of Christ...and I'm glad for them, but I'm sure they're caught up in what every other worker is doing and what the ruling workers desire...that they just have to go along with them at times. |
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