Vietnam

[Deleted]

Nov 26, 2013 18:15:47 GMT -5 christiansburg said:

Nov 16, 2013 10:33:01 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

Nate, here's your answer straight from Mr. Bau's daughter:

"I thinhk it doesn’t matter if you use the true name… because we want to Tell The Truth.
Minh Thanh

I cannot figure out just what is happening in VN. What are the specific complaints the Canadians workers have about those in VN. Seems like the people were doing a good work before Canadians interfered.

I have read back over the thread and can't put it together.

Likewise CB. It seems to me that the Canadian workers have seen how things are operating in Vietnam and have decided that that isn't how God works. He doesn't work through his Spirit, but through a "system!"

For some,Spirit controls the System, but for others, the System controls the Spirit.

And of course the Workers control the System so we can't have the former applying!

[Deleted]

A good summary Ram --- Very similar to the Alberta mess a few years ago.

[jondough]

Nov 27, 2013 9:45:36 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Here is my understanding...... When Fred Allen and his nephew Edwin brought the gospel to VN in the late 50s, they also brought the Australian customs, how the way of worship in the fellowship operate with them. They taught the professing natives their methods of doing things. After the War in VN ended the natives workers taught the friends what they had learned from the Australians workers ways of doing things for 30 yrs... The Darrel T. wanted to update on how things done according to Canadians/USA. For an example, kneeling to pray was done away with in the USA gradually from the state to state starting in the 1950-80s. The old folks were complaining it was tough on their knees when they kneel to pray for a certain length of time, and people couldn't hear each other prayers when all of them were facing the chairs heads down.

Nobody likes changes! So, the friends in VN, didn't like the changes, updates things were happening by the New Administration. The changing of the old guards! Chau and Hoa were no longer in charge.... Old ways were taken out and new ways of doing thing began.

In addition, the new workers/overseers wanted to divide up fields, and were insistent that lines not be crossed. It hadn't been done this way in the past. They were just going where they felt the Spirit led, and the need was. Typical to how they felt was done in the New Testament.

[sharingtheriches]

Nov 23, 2013 15:39:09 GMT -5 fixit said:

Nathan, I agree with you that 2x2ism is not a total failure.

Its the current leadership that's a total failure.

I can't recommend the system to anyone in its present condition, as discussed below:

Nov 22, 2013 10:45:17 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

Fred--nice to see you on TMB again. In answer to your question...seems Chau was put out of the work for 19 months and then was reinstated.  Mr. Bau and Minh Thanh wrote:

“They…found the way to drive Châu out from his ministry! Many elders, friends disagreed with
such actions, so they stood up, spoke and wrote many letters to them. They had visited my own house and received letters from us about the problem in my country... (Uncle Dale S. & Lyle S., Morris, Darrel, Colin...) Who know about the situation in VN should know me, because I'm the one of their victim right after uncle Châu.”. (Minh Thanh)

“The situation has been getting worse and worse. That is the reason Dale Shultz sent Lyle Shultz to take place of Darrel Turner. Dale must sent his brother Lyle in order bring peace and unity and take Darrel’s place! They had expelled Châu out of work until Darrel left Vietnam!!! They did not let Châu preach in Vietnam. They sent him to Cambodia, East Timor, Australia (while sending many foreigner workers to Việtnam).” (Nguyen Huu Bau)

They drove Mr. Chau out the work with some untrue reasons! Many elders and friends spoke up but not allowed! I didn’t agree with the deeds of Darrel or Lyle because my family were their victims (relating to their finding the way to kick out uncle Châu… Although we had talked, given evidence, ideas to edify many times. They have seen…known…their wrongs but they didn’t want to correct… and at last they expelled us too…) (Minh Thanh)

After 19 months they permitted Chau to return, but sent him to preach in Cambodia, East Timor and now in Australia, while in VN we need him very much. (Bau)

Yes, I believe it is the workers in power. And it baffles me to why those said workers are worse then any of their predecessors. I know most of these workers and have known them for years...knowing some of them before they ever went into the work. They were all very decent and moral young people before they went into the work.

I believe firmly that the workers have been given too much power and worship and that is why these workers presently in power are as they are. Absolute power corrupts. They get heady about the position they're in.....and for some the celibacy issue drove them bananas and some of them were pushed into the work to start with, having many relatives in the work who had "groomed" them for the work from the time of birth until present...and these worker relatives make sure they're staying in the work to the tune of allowing them to become immoral and/or criminals......the standards that the workers keep their thumb on their membership IS NOT the same standards that the workers hold for themselves....their political and powered license render them untouchable or so they would think. I am amazed that any moral worker stays within that arena...maybe some are not affected personally and some are able to just keep trucking in their faith that what they're doing with their lives is what they feel is the right thing to do. But yet they cannot really be unaffected when the immorality is amongst their leaders...it eventually sheds off on to those who are really good and moral people.

It's kind of like my gram always told us that we should be very careful of the people we associate with for eventually the morals of those people do affect us sometimes in not so small a measure!

I think it says in the NT that when we agree with folks in their actions either by saying go with God or some such approval, that we are guilty of their sins as well. Or perhaps better to say that we approve of what they're doing. And when I think about such, I see where the good workers and friends ARE contributing to the immorality and criminal status of some workers and friends for that matter encourages them to keep the status quo up.....and inversely seems the workers feel that when the status quo is kept up, that their reputation does not suffer harm or at least the workership/fellowship is not suffering harm.

[sharingtheriches]

Nov 23, 2013 18:10:03 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Nov 23, 2013 18:04:43 GMT -5 fixit said:

It's probably not as easy as classifying people as "wolf" or "shepherd".

It would be more accurate to say "wolf-like" attitudes and actions are the problem.

Paul gave a warning to overseers about what the wolf nature would do:

I think that is right. It's not really right to label these workers as wolves....or as shepherds either. They are just people trying to do what they were trained to do, not "savage wolves" at all. The problem is that they have all been trained to come in as overseers and lord it over the people and those who oppose them are pushed out or pushed down. That's the "wolf" aspect and they are all like that because they all believe they are doing the right thing to operate in that manner to protect "the kingdom" and make it the same the world over.

DarrelT I am sure, is a fine nice fellow. So was JimKnipe. They are just taken up trying to do what conventional wisdom told them to do in protecting the kingdom.

Aww, it is nothing more then the workers have forgotten they still are Gentiles as far as God is concerned and Jesus gave his apostles warning about being like the Gentiles in "lording over others."

[Deleted]

Once an older preacher was rebuked by someone for not speaking loud enough in prayer for others to hear, where upon he immediately replied, "Wasn't talking to you!"

[sharingtheriches]

Nov 23, 2013 18:18:56 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Nov 23, 2013 18:16:48 GMT -5 fixit said:

It's like the shepherds standing back while the wolves are ripping and tearing and devouring and scattering the sheep.

"God will resolve the situation in his own time".

"We must of careful not to get ahead of the almighty".

"Who can lay a hand on the Lord’s anointed and be guiltless?"

Typically, the same species never turns on its own kind.

Oh, but if they're wolves they WILL turn against their own kind and looks like this is what is happening in VN and what we've seen elsewhere. Animals who see that there are weak and sickly members in their groups will all turn on that failing one and eventually that weak or sickly one dies or goes off somewhere and lives without the protection of the group until something bigger and stronger kills them...any way the "survival of the fittest" is surely alive and well in most living creatures or so I've noted. I used to watch a flock of baby chicks and how they all would start picking on one little chick and my gram always said that I needed to assess or consider the one who was being picked on and I would most times as not see that this sufferer was not normal as the others were.

I had a litter of Boston Terrier puppies, a total of 5, and when they all got big enough to get around and play, 4 of the puppies would gang up on one little puppy who was marked much different then they were. Fact is this one puppy was the spitting image of their mother looking into a mirror. The vet explained to me that it was a normal pecking order thing and that was they all picked on the "different" one to put them into their corner and not be seeking to be top dog or something like that. I used to go out and pick that little puppy up and love her and soothe her hurt feelings...But that may have served to make the others worse in picking on her....sometimes I'd hear her pretty near screaming and I'd go and they'd have her by both ears and a couple of legs pulling all in opposite directions...I was very glad to be able to start getting rid of them......and she was the first one picked out to go!

[Deleted]

Nov 27, 2013 10:10:12 GMT -5 jondough said:

Nov 27, 2013 9:45:36 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Here is my understanding...... When Fred Allen and his nephew Edwin brought the gospel to VN in the late 50s, they also brought the Australian customs, how the way of worship in the fellowship operate with them. They taught the professing natives their methods of doing things. After the War in VN ended the natives workers taught the friends what they had learned from the Australians workers ways of doing things for 30 yrs... The Darrel T. wanted to update on how things done according to Canadians/USA. For an example, kneeling to pray was done away with in the USA gradually from the state to state starting in the 1950-80s. The old folks were complaining it was tough on their knees when they kneel to pray for a certain length of time, and people couldn't hear each other prayers when all of them were facing the chairs heads down.

Nobody likes changes! So, the friends in VN, didn't like the changes, updates things were happening by the New Administration. The changing of the old guards! Chau and Hoa were no longer in charge.... Old ways were taken out and new ways of doing thing began.

In addition, the new workers/overseers wanted to divide up fields, and were insistent that lines not be crossed. It hadn't been done this way in the past. They were just going where they felt the Spirit led, and the need was. Typical to how they felt was done in the New Testament.

It may be worthwhile to do a list of the changes that were enacted by the foreign workers. Here is an incomplete start:

1.Changing from kneeling to sitting for prayer in meeting.
2.Standardizing meeting times all across the country.
3.Enforcing field boundaries where each worker/worker pair must stay within.
4.Denying workers to help out needy friends in any way.


Those just came off the top. I am sure there are others.

[snow]

Nov 27, 2013 9:45:36 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Here is my understanding...... When Fred Allen and his nephew Edwin brought the gospel to VN in the late 50s, they also brought the Australian customs, how the way of worship in the fellowship operate with them. They taught the professing natives their methods of doing things. After the War in VN ended the natives workers taught the friends what they had learned from the Australians workers ways of doing things for 30 yrs... The Darrel T. wanted to update on how things done according to Canadians/USA. For an example, kneeling to pray was done away with in the USA gradually from the state to state starting in the 1950-80s. The old folks were complaining it was tough on their knees when they kneel to pray for a certain length of time, and people couldn't hear each other prayers when all of them were facing the chairs heads down.

Nobody likes changes! So, the friends in VN, didn't like the changes, updates things were happening by the New Administration. The changing of the old guards! Chau and Hoa were no longer in charge.... Old ways were taken out and new ways of doing thing began.

It's hard for me to believe this split is over something as unimportant as kneeling or not kneeling when praying. Surely someone isn't going to be upset to that degree over such a thing.

[fixit]

Nov 27, 2013 12:10:42 GMT -5 snow said:

It's hard for me to believe this split is over something as unimportant as kneeling or not kneeling when praying. Surely someone isn't going to be upset to that degree over such a thing.

Here's a summary gleaned from minhthanh's posts. I may have missed some things:

1. Only sitting in the meeting to pray and speak... In the past we knelt down when praying... and standing when giving testimonies(it was more respectful). Note: The Vietnamese had adopted the Australian custom of kneeling and standing taught by Fred Allen.

2. Day by day we know that there is a power upon us by OVERSEER !!!. In the past we obey the workers and don’t mind they are local or foreigner, just follow because we see Christ in their life. And the love and the unity among workers and friends, especially the leader. No golden any more in the church now… many friends and even elders told me that: Now the asmosphere in the meeting not nice such as we had in the past.

3. I think this is the main purpose cause Darrel want to chase uncle Chau out of the work... Because he didn't obey this rule of this organization.(he used to visit all the country since when all foreigners had to leave VN after 1975, his field was throughout the country)..He continued to visit our friends in the countryside.

4. Besides visiting to the other field breaking their rule (uncle Chau & uncle Hoa use their free time after convention to visit friends in their need, while some other workers go to the resort in highland or on the beach, the rest visit their family... One time an old man who know uncle Chau & Hoa through years. He was waiting for their coming to profess...Instead of having the joy of a professing, the sisters in that field... became very angry because he "trampled on their field !..."

5. They didn't want him help the poor friends, they said that he used money or material to seduce friends (maybe they see friends love the old local worker than them.) But it was not right. Just help poor fiends in their need only (some of the elders in the past received the help from these local workers ,too... But now they betray them, because they have daughter in the work or in queue to become a worker !... Unfortunately... we did not receive any from local workers but still respect them with our whole heart. . It means that the way they think or speak are wrong !... Even one time uncle Chau explained to them... He learnt all these things from uncle Fred, the workers go ahead... but they still disagree.

6. Don't allow to learn Bible in the family together( Parents and children) as we used to do... just learn alone.

7. No taking food to the union for potluck as we used to have (Very lovely and encouraged friends working together in love.)

8. since the Canadian came here at first we think they come here to help the local workers only, but gradually we see that they overthrow the leadership of uncle Chau and Hoa, and they use the money to portray a worker as a big businessman with very expensive motorbike, living in expensive apartment to attract many young people to come and friends want become workers.

9. These workers support everything the Canadian overseer want to do or change, even the overseer ask young workers don't listen to the local worker who long time labour in this country.

10. One day, my sister came into my house and said to me: - "Workers asked me to separate with you !..." My answer is; "Why I have to separate with my sister, while she doesn't do anything wrong to me."

11. These overseers and many workers do whatever they choose without being questioned or accountable so it's habitual to keep things quiet and in the dark.

12. Today I will tell you how Canadian overseer show their power upon our local workers… In a convention at Singapore on December 2009. Darrel .T and Morris G. asked uncle Châu “Do you want to continue in the work or not…?” The answer just “Crying”. Three months later… They chased him out !...AND MAKE UP MANY BAD STORIES ABOUT HIM.

[Deleted]

Nov 27, 2013 12:10:42 GMT -5 snow said:

Nov 27, 2013 9:45:36 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Here is my understanding...... When Fred Allen and his nephew Edwin brought the gospel to VN in the late 50s, they also brought the Australian customs, how the way of worship in the fellowship operate with them. They taught the professing natives their methods of doing things. After the War in VN ended the natives workers taught the friends what they had learned from the Australians workers ways of doing things for 30 yrs... The Darrel T. wanted to update on how things done according to Canadians/USA. For an example, kneeling to pray was done away with in the USA gradually from the state to state starting in the 1950-80s. The old folks were complaining it was tough on their knees when they kneel to pray for a certain length of time, and people couldn't hear each other prayers when all of them were facing the chairs heads down.

Nobody likes changes! So, the friends in VN, didn't like the changes, updates things were happening by the New Administration. The changing of the old guards! Chau and Hoa were no longer in charge.... Old ways were taken out and new ways of doing thing began.

It's hard for me to believe this split is over something as unimportant as kneeling or not kneeling when praying. Surely someone isn't going to be upset to that degree over such a thing.

You are right. The big picture has to be looked at. In the end all of these things ended up with two beloved local workers getting censured for doing what they had always been doing. That's where it all breaks down....when relationships are broken up by others. The apparent edict for families to cease studying the bible together is a strange one and if true, is really bad.

[snow]

Nov 27, 2013 13:25:21 GMT -5 fixit said:

Nov 27, 2013 12:10:42 GMT -5 snow said:

It's hard for me to believe this split is over something as unimportant as kneeling or not kneeling when praying. Surely someone isn't going to be upset to that degree over such a thing.

Here's a summary gleaned from minhthanh's posts. I may have missed some things:

1. Only sitting in the meeting to pray and speak... In the past we knelt down when praying... and standing when giving testimonies(it was more respectful). Note: The Vietnamese had adopted the Australian custom of kneeling and standing taught by Fred Allen.

2. Day by day we know that there is a power upon us by OVERSEER !!!. In the past we obey the workers and don’t mind they are local or foreigner, just follow because we see Christ in their life. And the love and the unity among workers and friends, especially the leader. No golden any more in the church now… many friends and even elders told me that: Now the asmosphere in the meeting not nice such as we had in the past.

3. I think this is the main purpose cause Darrel want to chase uncle Chau out of the work... Because he didn't obey this rule of this organization.(he used to visit all the country since when all foreigners had to leave VN after 1975, his field was throughout the country)..He continued to visit our friends in the countryside.

4. Besides visiting to the other field breaking their rule (uncle Chau & uncle Hoa use their free time after convention to visit friends in their need, while some other workers go to the resort in highland or on the beach, the rest visit their family... One time an old man who know uncle Chau & Hoa through years. He was waiting for their coming to profess...Instead of having the joy of a professing, the sisters in that field... became very angry because he "trampled on their field !..."

5. They didn't want him help the poor friends, they said that he used money or material to seduce friends (maybe they see friends love the old local worker than them.) But it was not right. Just help poor fiends in their need only (some of the elders in the past received the help from these local workers ,too... But now they betray them, because they have daughter in the work or in queue to become a worker !... Unfortunately... we did not receive any from local workers but still respect them with our whole heart. . It means that the way they think or speak are wrong !... Even one time uncle Chau explained to them... He learnt all these things from uncle Fred, the workers go ahead... but they still disagree.

6. Don't allow to learn Bible in the family together( Parents and children) as we used to do... just learn alone.

7. No taking food to the union for potluck as we used to have (Very lovely and encouraged friends working together in love.)

8. since the Canadian came here at first we think they come here to help the local workers only, but gradually we see that they overthrow the leadership of uncle Chau and Hoa, and they use the money to portray a worker as a big businessman with very expensive motorbike, living in expensive apartment to attract many young people to come and friends want become workers.

9. These workers support everything the Canadian overseer want to do or change, even the overseer ask young workers don't listen to the local worker who long time labour in this country.

10. One day, my sister came into my house and said to me: - "Workers asked me to separate with you !..." My answer is; "Why I have to separate with my sister, while she doesn't do anything wrong to me."

11. These overseers and many workers do whatever they choose without being questioned or accountable so it's habitual to keep things quiet and in the dark.

12. Today I will tell you how Canadian overseer show their power upon our local workers… In a convention at Singapore on December 2009. Darrel .T and Morris G. asked uncle Châu “Do you want to continue in the work or not…?” The answer just “Crying”. Three months later… They chased him out !...AND MAKE UP MANY BAD STORIES ABOUT HIM.

Thank you fixit. That is a lot of things and I can understand much better why they are upset. Seems a shame that the Western workers think they can RULE rather than guide. Forcing change is a good way of causing problems. Especially when the changes are not needed and are only being done to establish power and negate the influence of the native workers. They are once again drawing a line in the sand like what happened in Alberta. Those who think for themselves are not welcome and only those who do exactly as we say, even if it doesn't make any sense, are the true followers. Hogwash. No wonder I never made it in any religion let alone the 2x2's.

[fixit]

System-minded workers don't understand that their domineering attitudes and actions quench the spirit, and destroy something that is far more precious than conformity.

No golden any more in the church now… many friends and even elders told me that: Now the asmosphere in the meeting not nice such as we had in the past.

[christiansburg]

Nov 27, 2013 13:26:11 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Nov 27, 2013 12:10:42 GMT -5 snow said:

It's hard for me to believe this split is over something as unimportant as kneeling or not kneeling when praying. Surely someone isn't going to be upset to that degree over such a thing.

You are right. The big picture has to be looked at. In the end all of these things ended up with two beloved local workers getting censured for doing what they had always been doing. That's where it all breaks down....when relationships are broken up by others. The apparent edict for families to cease studying the bible together is a strange one and if true, is really bad.

I am hugely curious as to what the "many bad stories are." Can you tell us some? Or is this just a vague
statement? I can't figure this out.

[christiansburg]

Nov 27, 2013 10:52:58 GMT -5 @dennisj said:

Once an older preacher was rebuked by someone for not speaking loud enough in prayer for others to hear, where upon he immediately replied, "Wasn't talking to you!"

You might be referring to Garret Hughes. He was great in meeting, I thought. I heard him personally
rebuked for not speaking loud enough while he was preaching. He tried to speak up. Garret was just one
of those persons who found it difficult to speak loud enough even with the microphone.

I have also been rebuked for the same thing. I responded after meeting by simply saying: I'm sorry but
I am not able to overcome your disability of not hearing well.

[Deleted]

8. since the Canadian came here at first we think they come here to help the local workers only, but gradually we see that they overthrow the leadership of uncle Chau and Hoa, and they use the money to portray a worker as a big businessman with very expensive motorbike, living in expensive apartment to attract many young people to come and friends want become workers.

Can anyone explain the bold portion in more detail please?

[jondough]

Everyone keeps looking for the big one thats going to knock you out. You're not likely to find it.

Its as simple as this....the local workers had a handle on things. Then outside Workers come in, and decide they were taking over. They changed many little things to make this clear.

Kind of like if your Mother-in-Law came into your house and decided she would rather have the couch over there, and the recliner somewhere else, and just changed them. Then you're getting ready to cook chicken, and she tells you flat out....."no, were having beef". Then when you argue, "no, were having chicken" she threatens to put you out of your own house. Worse yet, it gets worse. You tell her you're going to visit some friends and take them some food, and she says, "no, I'll have someone else do that".

This wouldn't go over too good, even though it wouldn't be a big deal, and what she did wasn't really wrong - per say.

This is how the Western Workers came into VN. Didn't come in to help, ask how they could help, fit in, encourage...whatever......They came in, and made it clear to everyone that they were now in charge. They were not a bit humble about it.

[Deleted]

Nov 27, 2013 17:38:54 GMT -5 jondough said:

Everyone keeps looking for the big one thats going to knock you out. You're not likely to find it.

Its as simple as this....the local workers had a handle on things. Then outside Workers come in, and decide they were taking over. They changed many little things to make this clear.

Kind of like if your Mother-in-Law came into your house and decided she would rather have the couch over there, and the recliner somewhere else, and just changed them. Then you're getting ready to cook chicken, and she tells you flat out....."no, were having beef".

This wouldn't go over too good, even though it wouldn't be a big deal, and what she did wasn't really wrong - per say.

This is how the Western Workers came into VN. Didn't come in to help, ask how they could help, fit in, encourage...whatever......They came in, and made it clear to everyone that they were now in charge. They were not a bit humble about it.

Like when you get married and your wife throws out all your old junk that you treasured......even pictures of your old girlfriends....I mean....what's with that??!!

[Deleted]

Nov 27, 2013 17:15:39 GMT -5 @ram said:

8. since the Canadian came here at first we think they come here to help the local workers only, but gradually we see that they overthrow the leadership of uncle Chau and Hoa, and they use the money to portray a worker as a big businessman with very expensive motorbike, living in expensive apartment to attract many young people to come and friends want become workers.

Can anyone explain the bold portion in more detail please?

I think it means that the workers had a successful look about them and it attracted locals to associate with them by coming to meetings and wanting to get into the work. They would see that if you become a worker you might get nice clothes and an expensive motorbike, a better deal than the average job yields in Vietnam.

[jondough]

Nov 27, 2013 17:46:12 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Nov 27, 2013 17:38:54 GMT -5 jondough said:

Everyone keeps looking for the big one thats going to knock you out. You're not likely to find it.

Its as simple as this....the local workers had a handle on things. Then outside Workers come in, and decide they were taking over. They changed many little things to make this clear.

Kind of like if your Mother-in-Law came into your house and decided she would rather have the couch over there, and the recliner somewhere else, and just changed them. Then you're getting ready to cook chicken, and she tells you flat out....."no, were having beef".

This wouldn't go over too good, even though it wouldn't be a big deal, and what she did wasn't really wrong - per say.

This is how the Western Workers came into VN. Didn't come in to help, ask how they could help, fit in, encourage...whatever......They came in, and made it clear to everyone that they were now in charge. They were not a bit humble about it.

Like when you get married and your wife throws out all your old junk that you treasured......even pictures of your old girlfriends....I mean....what's with that??!!

Especially when they really were not taking up that much wall space!

[fixit]

Nov 27, 2013 17:46:12 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Like when you get married and your wife throws out all your old junk that you treasured......even pictures of your old girlfriends....I mean....what's with that??!!

You've held that resentment all these years?

Better get some counselling before it eats you up CD!

Getting back to Vietnam, they didn't exactly marry the Canadian workers.

They're more like Camilla, causing Diana to say "there's three of us in this marriage".

[Deleted]

Nov 27, 2013 17:48:54 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Nov 27, 2013 17:15:39 GMT -5 @ram said:

8. since the Canadian came here at first we think they come here to help the local workers only, but gradually we see that they overthrow the leadership of uncle Chau and Hoa, and they use the money to portray a worker as a big businessman with very expensive motorbike, living in expensive apartment to attract many young people to come and friends want become workers.

Can anyone explain the bold portion in more detail please?

I think it means that the workers had a successful look about them and it attracted locals to associate with them by coming to meetings and wanting to get into the work. They would see that if you become a worker you might get nice clothes and an expensive motorbike, a better deal than the average job yields in Vietnam.

Thanks CD, that's sort of how I was interpreting it, but somehow it doesn't get off the ground? It doesn't fit? However, the Truth is stranger than fiction as they say!

[Deleted]

Nov 27, 2013 17:38:54 GMT -5 jondough said:

Everyone keeps looking for the big one thats going to knock you out. You're not likely to find it.

Its as simple as this....the local workers had a handle on things. Then outside Workers come in, and decide they were taking over. They changed many little things to make this clear.

Kind of like if your Mother-in-Law came into your house and decided she would rather have the couch over there, and the recliner somewhere else, and just changed them. Then you're getting ready to cook chicken, and she tells you flat out....."no, were having beef". Then when you argue, "no, were having chicken" she threatens to put you out of your own house. Worse yet, it gets worse. You tell her you're going to visit some friends and take them some food, and she says, "no, I'll have someone else do that".

This wouldn't go over too good, even though it wouldn't be a big deal, and what she did wasn't really wrong - per say.

This is how the Western Workers came into VN. Didn't come in to help, ask how they could help, fit in, encourage...whatever......They came in, and made it clear to everyone that they were now in charge. They were not a bit humble about it.

Jondough, you are getting way below the belt now! Comparing Workers with mother-in-laws? You need to post this sort of stuff on the Giants thread!

[jondough]

Nov 27, 2013 18:01:17 GMT -5 @ram said:

Nov 27, 2013 17:38:54 GMT -5 jondough said:

Everyone keeps looking for the big one thats going to knock you out. You're not likely to find it.

Its as simple as this....the local workers had a handle on things. Then outside Workers come in, and decide they were taking over. They changed many little things to make this clear.

Kind of like if your Mother-in-Law came into your house and decided she would rather have the couch over there, and the recliner somewhere else, and just changed them. Then you're getting ready to cook chicken, and she tells you flat out....."no, were having beef". Then when you argue, "no, were having chicken" she threatens to put you out of your own house. Worse yet, it gets worse. You tell her you're going to visit some friends and take them some food, and she says, "no, I'll have someone else do that".

This wouldn't go over too good, even though it wouldn't be a big deal, and what she did wasn't really wrong - per say.

This is how the Western Workers came into VN. Didn't come in to help, ask how they could help, fit in, encourage...whatever......They came in, and made it clear to everyone that they were now in charge. They were not a bit humble about it.

Jondough, you are getting way below the belt now! Comparing Workers with mother-in-laws? You need to post this sort of stuff on the Giants thread!

I know it was a bad analogy but hopefully the point wasn't totally lost. It wasn't that they were requiring anything really wrong. It was just the way they came in and took over....

[sharingtheriches]

Nov 27, 2013 17:46:12 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Nov 27, 2013 17:38:54 GMT -5 jondough said:

Everyone keeps looking for the big one thats going to knock you out. You're not likely to find it.

Its as simple as this....the local workers had a handle on things. Then outside Workers come in, and decide they were taking over. They changed many little things to make this clear.

Kind of like if your Mother-in-Law came into your house and decided she would rather have the couch over there, and the recliner somewhere else, and just changed them. Then you're getting ready to cook chicken, and she tells you flat out....."no, were having beef".

This wouldn't go over too good, even though it wouldn't be a big deal, and what she did wasn't really wrong - per say.

This is how the Western Workers came into VN. Didn't come in to help, ask how they could help, fit in, encourage...whatever......They came in, and made it clear to everyone that they were now in charge. They were not a bit humble about it.

Like when you get married and your wife throws out all your old junk that you treasured......even pictures of your old girlfriends....I mean....what's with that??!!

What's with that is a feeling of insecurity/jealous. When I was going with my husband and we were talking a bit about marriage, one day he handed me his billfold while he was driving and asked me to pull something out for him. In the process I saw a picture of him some years earlier with a beautiful blond in the picture. I remember feeling some jealousy but I never asked him about it nor said anything about it for I was ashamed a bit for my jealousy. After my husband had died and I was visiting with my sister-in-law, I thought to show her that picture and asked her if she knew who that beautiful young lady was. She said "Why that's me!" I was astounded and unable to reply for a bit. And she went on to say, "I'll bet you were jealous when you first saw that picture!" I had to admit I was.

So I see that it is jealousy that is driving the Canadian workers for they would feel some insecurity having to be in a foreign field, so they decided to begin such a campaign before they ever set foot on land. The campaign being to black ball the resident workers to secure the top places for themselves asap. All jealousy. And they forget this as well as forgetting Jesus all the time anyway, that this is exactly the reason the chief priest stirred up the children of Israel and got Jesus crucified!

[sharingtheriches]

Nov 27, 2013 18:19:59 GMT -5 jondough said:

Nov 27, 2013 18:01:17 GMT -5 @ram said:

Jondough, you are getting way below the belt now! Comparing Workers with mother-in-laws? You need to post this sort of stuff on the Giants thread!

I know it was a bad analogy but hopefully the point wasn't totally lost. It wasn't that they were requiring anything really wrong. It was just the way they came in and took over....

The people in VN are apt to not understand this Jondough for don't they have the custom where they hold sincere and deep respect for the elders?

I knew of a Vietnamese young lady who was adopted by one of our dentist and when he died suddenly with an heart attack, a day or so later she sacrificed herself in love and respect for that man. Something they had said had been practiced in her native land...whether recently or years ago, I'm not certain.

[Deleted]

Nov 27, 2013 17:59:27 GMT -5 @ram said:

Nov 27, 2013 17:48:54 GMT -5 @clearday said:

I think it means that the workers had a successful look about them and it attracted locals to associate with them by coming to meetings and wanting to get into the work. They would see that if you become a worker you might get nice clothes and an expensive motorbike, a better deal than the average job yields in Vietnam.

Thanks CD, that's sort of how I was interpreting it, but somehow it doesn't get off the ground? It doesn't fit? However, the Truth is stranger than fiction as they say!

It's ironic isn't it? Workers operating in the Western countries don't look like successful businessmen whom ambitious people want to associate with. However, when they go to other countries and even dress down, they still look like they are rich. If they really want to live their ideals, they would take a page from Gandhi who dressed just like the people he served.

I wonder if these foreign workers even have an inkling as to the effect of their appearance in those countries? They probably feel they have dressed down and more casual than at home so they would be considered a person of modest means.....yet they still look like rich Westerners. They claim to not be rice missionaries, but their appearance is having the same effect.

[Deleted]

Nov 27, 2013 19:00:01 GMT -5 sharingtheriches said:

Nov 27, 2013 17:46:12 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Like when you get married and your wife throws out all your old junk that you treasured......even pictures of your old girlfriends....I mean....what's with that??!!

What's with that is a feeling of insecurity/jealous. When I was going with my husband and we were talking a bit about marriage, one day he handed me his billfold while he was driving and asked me to pull something out for him. In the process I saw a picture of him some years earlier with a beautiful blond in the picture. I remember feeling some jealousy but I never asked him about it nor said anything about it for I was ashamed a bit for my jealousy. After my husband had died and I was visiting with my sister-in-law, I thought to show her that picture and asked her if she knew who that beautiful young lady was. She said "Why that's me!" I was astounded and unable to reply for a bit. And she went on to say, "I'll bet you were jealous when you first saw that picture!" I had to admit I was.

So I see that it is jealousy that is driving the Canadian workers for they would feel some insecurity having to be in a foreign field, so they decided to begin such a campaign before they ever set foot on land. The campaign being to black ball the resident workers to secure the top places for themselves asap. All jealousy. And they forget this as well as forgetting Jesus all the time anyway, that this is exactly the reason the chief priest stirred up the children of Israel and got Jesus crucified!

Yes, I think that is the right idea. I'm not sure if the word jealousy is quite accurate for the workers there but it amounts to staking their claim to the leadership, and doing it by instituting minor changes so that everyone knows who is making the decisions. A bit like a dog marking his territory.....that might be a better analogy!