Vietnam

[Deleted]

Woe to anyone judged guilty in any form of a kangaroo court which has no appeal whatsoever. It is my personal opinion that such IS the 2&2 worker's religion. No matter how else it maybe presented, when it gets down to where the rubber meets the road, that is what is.

[dmmichgood]

Nov 24, 2013 4:58:42 GMT -5 edgarmassey said:

There were a number of protests at the description of 2x2ism as a total failure. Perhaps the word total needs some definition.

As an organization it perhaps isn't complete failure -- it has lasted over a hundred years now and has built up a significant membership base. Exists in quite a number of countries, and has established a well working control system from an organizational perspective.

However as a proponent of the Christian spirit in our world it is hard to define it as anything but "Total failure". Instead of the Christian spirit of love, it actively teaches contempt for the vast majority of people in the world around it --- even in this case in Vietnam (and many other similar situations) it actively teaches contempt and rejection for even its own converts if they should trust their own convictions more than official 2x2 doctrine. 2x2ism actively teaches and practices dishonesty in countless issues. As well as it actively teaches and practices a self-righteousness that is second to none in the world we live in. It clear teaching of the supremacy of leadership as the untouchable greatest, is in sharp contrast to basic Christianity. How that anyone can regard it less than a total and complete failure as far as promoting the Christian spirit is hard to imagine.

I AGREE.

[dmmichgood]

Nov 24, 2013 15:02:02 GMT -5 @dennisj said:

Woe to anyone judged guilty in any form of a kangaroo court which has no appeal whatsoever. It is my personal opinion that such IS the 2&2 worker's religion. No matter how else it maybe presented, when it gets down to where the rubber meets the road, that is what is.

I AGREE.

That is so frustrating!
To know that have absolutely NO recourse to any appeal!
You are absolutely helpless!

[minhthanh]

Today I will tell you how Canadian overseer show their power upon our local workers…

In a convention at Sigapore on December 2009.

• Darrel .T and Morris G. asked uncle Châu “Do you want to continue in the work or not…?”

The answer just “Crying”

Three months later… They chased him out !...

AND MAKE UP MANY BAD STORIES ABOUT HIM.



• Lyle S had writen a letter and asked the workers to go throughout the country to read his letter.

Two things that we disagree with him in that letter was…

+ Friends had to respect the workers in the highest place

(We think that the highest place only for God not for them).

+ From now on Hoa doesn’t have any part on the work in VN.  (In fact uncle Hoa has a bigger part than them, he works hard for our soul for more than 42 years).


Mike, a brother worker from America said to my father “I wish that he (Lyle) would not write that letter…”


I still wonder what happened with our two Asian workers (who speak Vietnamese very fluently,one from Hong Kong, the other from Taiwan… ) We do love and respect them… But suddenly they disappeared in the work… while they were accompanying with Darrel. (Just heard bad stories about them).



The story still very long… My purpose just want to tell the truth,

As the Hymn 372…

In the warfare we are waging. For the truth and for the right, When the conflict fierce is raging, with the power of the night. God need workers brave and true; May He, then, depend on you?



I do not condemn any person. I do hope who is still being a worker be true, because we are on THE TRUTH.

[minhthanh]

Nov 22, 2013 16:49:29 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Nov 22, 2013 16:24:05 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

According to who?

According to Chau's email to me.

Have uncle Chau email to you that The government ask him back to VN ? 

Two months ago uncle Chau had sent a letter to friends saying... After convention tour around Australia he will go to Singapore. At that place Wallace will continue arrange for him !...
Maybe, next time uncle Chau had to be arranged by the government... Should stay in VN 

[fixit]

Nov 24, 2013 20:58:27 GMT -5 minhthanh said:

+ Friends had to respect the workers in the highest place

(We think that the highest place only for God not for them).

Jesus would disagree with Lyle Shultz I think:

Matthew 20:25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.

26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,

27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—

28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

The ministry will not be blessed while it places itself above Jesus.

John 13:12 When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. “Do you understand what I have done for you?” he asked them.

13 “You call me ‘Teacher’ and ‘Lord,’ and rightly so, for that is what I am.

14 Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another’s feet.

15 I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.

16 Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

[CherieKropp]

The following is Hoa's "Heart Letter" was translated from Vietnamese to English

HEART LETTER
To every dear brother an sister
This is Brother Hoa

I am writing to explain about my absence in the coming days

After a long time of thinking and comparing, I see clearly that the Lord wants me to be courageous and to ring the bell for a wake up call.

In order for my ringing the bell to get results, I must not only be well behaved with a definite purpose, but also must sacrifice and endure loss.

My silence in the coming days does not mean that I am leaving from you. On the contrary, I will be near you.

I will steadfastly keep my eyes on the goal that I chose in the beginning: I want to continue to offer my life in order to encourage and strengthen your souls and help others who are in need. I’ll hold fast that goal to the end of my life.

I have cherished my friendship and fellowship with you during the many past years.

I am writing you of my intentions beforehand, to prevent a loud meeting from taking place due to my behavior and actions. I have decided that such a meeting will not be needed.

I do not want any of you to spend money or travel time on my account just to hear what they will say about me. (With this letter, you already know my decision.)

Dear brothers and sisters, be cheerful about my decision to put off the yoke (cái tròng) from my neck. From today, I choose to freely use the rest of my life to serve god according to His good will in the manner God’s family did in the Golden Chapter (even if it proves difficult and means that I lack material goods).

May you all have joy, strength and choose wisdom every day.

Brother Hoa
August 26th, 2010 4:24 PM

[CherieKropp]

Minth Thanh wrote:
Today I will tell you how Canadian overseer show their power upon our local workers…
In a convention at Sigapore on December 2009.
• Darrel .T and Morris G. asked uncle Châu “Do you want to continue in the work or not…?”
The answer just “Crying”
Three months later… They chased him out !...
AND MAKE UP MANY BAD STORIES ABOUT HIM.

This is very sad. 
I understand that at this time both Chau and Hoa were 69 years old and had been professing for 48 years; and that both men had been in the work for 42 years--since 1967.

Do you know if they first talked to Chau and told him certain things they wanted him to do?
And did he perhaps balk or refuse to do them?
And if so, what were the conditions the workers gave for Chau to continue in the work?

[Deleted]

Thank you for posting that translated letter, Cherie. It could have been written by many no longer within the "number" over the past century (plus.) Wish I had known it was just an "experiment" when I too gave my all to it, only to discover, older workers had various amounts of guaranteed income, making mockery of living with no fixed financial support, and other somewhat similar contradictions, i.e. church property while denying it, double standards, sexual immorality, overseers just dividing up territories with and without other worker approval.

This translated letter reveals to me nothing has changed from the beginning of "the experiment." "From the days of the bible." Yeah, right! Only for the gullible and we all reveal ourselves! If cynical is the opposite of gullible, I'm no longer "gullible."

[fred]

Nov 25, 2013 12:29:17 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

The following is Hoa's "Heart Letter" was translated from Vietnamese to English

HEART LETTER
To every dear brother an sister
This is Brother Hoa

I am writing to explain about my absence in the coming days

After a long time of thinking and comparing, I see clearly that the Lord wants me to be courageous and to ring the bell for a wake up call.

In order for my ringing the bell to get results, I must not only be well behaved with a definite purpose, but also must sacrifice and endure loss.

My silence in the coming days does not mean that I am leaving from you. On the contrary, I will be near you.

I will steadfastly keep my eyes on the goal that I chose in the beginning: I want to continue to offer my life in order to encourage and strengthen your souls and help others who are in need. I’ll hold fast that goal to the end of my life.

I have cherished my friendship and fellowship with you during the many past years.

I am writing you of my intentions beforehand, to prevent a loud meeting from taking place due to my behavior and actions. I have decided that such a meeting will not be needed.

I do not want any of you to spend money or travel time on my account just to hear what they will say about me. (With this letter, you already know my decision.)

Dear brothers and sisters, be cheerful about my decision to put off the yoke (cái tròng) from my neck. From today, I choose to freely use the rest of my life to serve god according to His good will in the manner God’s family did in the Golden Chapter (even if it proves difficult and means that I lack material goods).

May you all have joy, strength and choose wisdom every day.

Brother Hoa
August 26th, 2010 4:24 PM

So what does all this mean? Will Hoa be continuing to preach the gospel as he always has, and be pastoring those who have professed, while receiving no support from the organisation?

It would appear that the customary smear campaign is in full swing as the 'information' circulating in Australia says that he has left the "Truth" and is practising Budhism.

[minhthanh]

Nov 25, 2013 13:23:17 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

Minth Thanh wrote:
Today I will tell you how Canadian overseer show their power upon our local workers…
In a convention at Sigapore on December 2009.
• Darrel .T and Morris G. asked uncle Châu “Do you want to continue in the work or not…?”
The answer just “Crying”
Three months later… They chased him out !...
AND MAKE UP MANY BAD STORIES ABOUT HIM.

This is very sad. 
I understand that at this time both Chau and Hoa were 69 years old and had been professing for 48 years; and that both men had been in the work for 42 years--since 1967.

Do you know if they first talked to Chau and told him certain things they wanted him to do?
And did he perhaps balk or refuse to do them?
And if so, what were the conditions the workers gave for Chau to continue in the work?

Besides  visiting to the other field breaking their rule (uncle Chau & uncle Hoa  use their free time after convention to visit friends in their need, while some other workers go to the resort in highland or on the beach, the rest visit their family... One time an old man who know uncle Chau & Hoa through years. He was waiting for their coming to profess...Instead of having the joy of a professing, the sisters in that field... became very angry because he "trampled on their field !..."
They didn't want him help the poor friends, they said that he used money or material to seduce friends (maybe they see friends love the old local worker than them.) But it was not right. Just help poor fiends in their need only (some of the elders in the past received the help from these local workers ,too... But now they betray them, because they have daughter in the work or in queue to become a worker !...  Unfortunately... we did not receive any from local workers but still respect them with our whole heart. . It means that the way they think or speak are wrong !... Even one time uncle Chau explained to them... He learnt all these things from uncle Fred, the workers go ahead... but they still disagree.

[minhthanh]

Nov 26, 2013 5:25:05 GMT -5 fred said:

Nov 25, 2013 12:29:17 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

The following is Hoa's "Heart Letter" was translated from Vietnamese to English

HEART LETTER
To every dear brother an sister
This is Brother Hoa

Dear brothers and sisters, be cheerful about my decision to put off the yoke (cái tròng) from my neck. From today, I choose to freely use the rest of my life to serve god according to His good will in the manner God’s family did in the Golden Chapter (even if it proves difficult and means that I lack material goods).

May you all have joy, strength and choose wisdom every day.

Brother Hoa
August 26th, 2010 4:24 PM

So what does all this mean? Will Hoa be continuing to preach the gospel as he always has, and be pastoring those who have professed, while receiving no support from the organisation? - yes, it's right

It would appear that the customary smear campaign is in full swing as the 'information' circulating in Australia says that he has left the "Truth" and is practising Budhism.

Ha... ha ...ha... the customary smear campaign is in full swing. This is the way young workers in VN are doing nowaday under the order of their overseer... They had spread many bad stories unbelievable like this for uncle Châu in the past, now turning to uncle Hoa !...

It doesn’t matter what they are doing or speaking. Uncle Hoa now acting like Paul in Galatians 2: 4 and that because of the false brethren privily brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 to whom we gave place in the way of subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. 6 But from those who were reputed to be somewhat (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth not man's person)-- they, I say, who were of repute imparted nothing to me:

[aus1]

Fred Allen would turn in his grave if he knew what has happened in Vietnam.
I have heard him speak on Vietnam and the recent happenings would break his heart.

[minhthanh]

Nov 26, 2013 10:39:41 GMT -5 aus1 said:

Fred Allen would turn in his grave if he knew what has happened in Vietnam.
I have heard him speak on Vietnam and the recent happenings would break his heart.

We respect and are thankful for what Uncle Fred and many other workers in the past had done for our country... and feel regret for what are happening in VN now.

[CherieKropp]

Thanks, Minh Thanh, for your explanation.  This is very interesting. 
What type of material help might Hoa & Chau have provided? money? food? clothing? shelter?
Did they provide this only to those who had professed and were in need? Or also to those who were not professing?

Normally, English speaking workers believe they are not to help the poor - or the people might profess and be "rice Christians" (see definition below).  They believe that the best way they can help people is to bring them into the Way.  Their reasoning is Jesus words "The poor you have with you always."

Workers sometimes say they are not a "loaves and fishes" ministry. This is in reference to Jesus feeding the multitude with a few loaves of bread and few fish. The workers dont want people coming to them for material things they might receive...just for spiritual.  So if they dont give material, they know the people sincerely want what they have to give spiritually. However, Jesus gave both.  The multitude didnt come to him for the food--they came to hear Jesus and he fed them both spiritual and natural food.

Sometimes the F&Ws get complacent about things like charity and helping the poor, because this is the way "its always been done."  The workers insinuate or claim they are "the poor" and that giving to them fulfills the scripture.  NOT!  It would be a different ministry and church if the F&Ws really made a concentrated effort to help the poor they saw in need...

---

James 2:14-17 NAS:  What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?  If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and be filled,” and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

James 1:22 NAS:  But prove yourselves doers of the word, and not merely hearers who delude themselves.
James 4:17 NAS:  Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

I praise Hoa and Chau for their good works to the poor! They are to be commended for following the scripture.

---

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice_Christian

A rice Christian is someone who has formally declared himself/herself a Christian for material benefits. It is usually not for religious reasons. The term is often used pejoratively. The related phrase "rice Bible" is also used to describe the type of mission.

The term comes from Asian countries, such as India, in which local populations were suffering economically under Western colonialism and unequal treaties nominally converted to Christianity in hopes of getting food from Christian missionaries. Concerns have been expressed both by Christian missionaries and by those opposed to Christian missions that people in these situations are nominally converting to Christianity in order to receive charity or material advancements.

[CherieKropp]

Minth Thanh wrote:
Today I will tell you how Canadian overseer show their power upon our local workers…
In a convention at Sigapore on December 2009.
• Darrel .T and Morris G. asked uncle Châu “Do you want to continue in the work or not…?”
The answer just “Crying”
Three months later… They chased him out !...
AND MAKE UP MANY BAD STORIES ABOUT HIM.

Minh THanh:

What were the reasons they gave for "chasing Chau out" of the work?

What were some of the "bad stories" they told about him? 

I understood from something you wrote earlier that the workers twisted some things your family had said about Chau and used them against him--to put him out of the work--which understandably has caused you much grief, and still does.  And even after you wrote letters explaining things, nothing changed. And that you were expelled.  If I have not correctly understood your meaning, please correct me.

[Deleted]

I haven't been following this thread and have only just glanced at the last few pages of posts, so am not too acquainted with the particulars of the case. However, what jumps out and kicks me where it hurts real bad, is the importance of the system over Godliness. In a lesser, but no less important way for myself personally, I have a similar T-shirt. The old choice eh? Listen to the Workers, or listen to God?

So, so Sad! However, no matter how disappointing the situation may be for the VN friends involved, any who choose to follow God instead of system-minded workers, will soon feel great liberty in Christ and will have the reassurance they have made the right decision. The Spirit of Irvinism is still alive and well. That is plain to see. Power and control is all important.

[christiansburg]

Nov 16, 2013 10:33:01 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

Nate, here's your answer straight from Mr. Bau's daughter:

"I thinhk it doesn’t matter if you use the true name… because we want to Tell The Truth.
Minh Thanh

I cannot figure out just what is happening in VN. What are the specific complaints the Canadians workers have about those in VN. Seems like the people were doing a good work before Canadians interfered.

I have read back over the thread and can't put it together.

[snow]

Nov 26, 2013 18:15:47 GMT -5 christiansburg said:

Nov 16, 2013 10:33:01 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

Nate, here's your answer straight from Mr. Bau's daughter:

"I thinhk it doesn’t matter if you use the true name… because we want to Tell The Truth.
Minh Thanh

I cannot figure out just what is happening in VN. What are the specific complaints the Canadians workers have about those in VN. Seems like the people were doing a good work before Canadians interfered.

I have read back over the thread and can't put it together.

I'm with you on this. Why are they causing so much trouble. What did the VN friends do to get the Canadian workers in such a control mode?

[déjà vu]

I wonder how many third world counties have native overseer.

[fixit]

When the foreigners fled the Vietnamese workers did a good job of looking after the friends.

Now they foreigners are back they want to push the Vietnamese into a regimented system that they are not used to.

[snow]

Nov 26, 2013 19:32:46 GMT -5 fixit said:

When the foreigners fled the Vietnamese workers did a good job of looking after the friends.

Now they foreigners are back they want to push the Vietnamese into a regimented system that they are not used to.

Then the VN workers should expose them to the authorities for who they are and get them kicked out. Sounds to me like they are on a power trip and I have no use for people like that.

[fixit]

Nov 26, 2013 19:29:02 GMT -5 snow said:

Nov 26, 2013 18:15:47 GMT -5 christiansburg said:

I cannot figure out just what is happening in VN. What are the specific complaints the Canadians workers have about those in VN. Seems like the people were doing a good work before Canadians interfered.

I have read back over the thread and can't put it together.

I'm with you on this. Why are they causing so much trouble. What did the VN friends do to get the Canadian workers in such a control mode?

The Western Alliance workers have been in control mode for a long time.

Dale Shultz wrote this nearly 15 years ago:

...respect that decision because it comes from a group of men whom God has called and whom God is using in guiding his work in this part of the earth. If our attitude towards them becomes disrespectful, it is a reflection on our attitude towards God as well.

We realize that the fact that we are servants of God, or even very responsible servants of God, doesn't make us infallible. However, something that is very much a part of being a child of God is to respect those who are over us in the Lord, to pray for them, to obey them, to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. Their judgement may not always be right, but it is always right for us to respect that judgement and to work with it in the best way that we possibly can.

[snow]

Yeah, fixit, every time I read that I just want to puke. That is so wrong at so many levels.

[slowtosee]

It is , sadly, not altogether unusual for "power drunk" leaders to demand obedience from their followers. example-

"Each Prophet stands as God to the people. When he speaks, it is the Lord speaking.” “ When you're in the presence of our prophet, you're in the presence of God.” “The prophet is God with us and God over us. To obey the prophet is to obey God" (Warren Jeffs 12/26/95, 1/4/96, 11/20/95)

[fixit]

Nov 26, 2013 21:42:03 GMT -5 snow said:

Yeah, fixit, every time I read that I just want to puke. That is so wrong at so many levels.

The workers most important doctrine is obedience to the ministry.

It would be unethical to not clearly preach it in gospel meetings.

[fixit]

Here's another way of saying what Dale articulated so well to the friends and workers:

The ordained man understands that his obedience to the bishop is in concert with the bishop’s obedience to the Holy Father. The pope’s authority covers the whole Church, including bishops and priests. Practically speaking, though, each priest is accountable on a daily basis to his bishop (and religious superior if he belongs to a religious order). The pope cannot oversee the behavior and ministry of every priest in the Church. Each local ordinary (bishop), though accountable to the pope, has a certain freedom to minister in the way he determines is most effective given the unique needs of his diocese. His priests are expected to cooperate with him in this, so they promise to obey him.

[snow]

Nov 26, 2013 22:22:43 GMT -5 fixit said:

Nov 26, 2013 21:42:03 GMT -5 snow said:

Yeah, fixit, every time I read that I just want to puke. That is so wrong at so many levels.

The workers most important doctrine is obedience to the ministry.

It would be unethical to not clearly preach it in gospel meetings.

Sigh... you're probably right. It would be dishonest not to preach the prime doctrine from the meetings.