Vietnam

[fixit]

Nov 21, 2013 10:53:50 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Nov 21, 2013 10:13:20 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

I too can hardly believe Nate used that verse to MIS-apply to the VN situation. 

.....and to justify such abusive action by the workers.

Nathan: you don't have to choose between the overseers and those who are out of fellowship with them.

You only have to choose between right and wrong, what is of God and what is not of God.

Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side; my greatest concern is to be on God's side, for God is always right.

Abraham Lincoln

[holdmyhand]

I think these verses are appropriate

Act 20:28    Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his
own blood.
Act 20:29    For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock
.Act 20:30    Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them

[fixit]

Nathan, was it right or wrong for:

1. A worker to tell minhthanh's sister to shun her?

2. Uncle Chau to be banished from the work in Vietnam?

[fixit]

Nov 21, 2013 16:55:18 GMT -5 NathanB said:

~~ We have seen the mighty have fallen among us, William Irvine, Edward Cooney, Overseers, and workers have been removed from the ministry because of CSA, Workers having sexual relationship with married women, teaching false doctrines, etc.. Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,”

Nathan, do you think the Canadian workers who have divided the friends in Vietnam will be removed from the work?

[Deleted]

Nov 21, 2013 17:21:40 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Nov 21, 2013 17:13:42 GMT -5 fixit said:

Nathan, do you think the Canadian workers who have divided the friends in Vietnam will be removed from the work?

They demoted Darrel T. from his position as an overseer. I believe he is no longer laboring in VN. let him stay in the work as a regular worker without having the position as an overseer. When overseers from other countries they found out Dale or Lyle S. are not helping to solve the issue either, they too should leave VN and sent someone, who is capable, and able to solve the problems over there so there's peace and unity within the Church. Or having someone within VN as a temp. overseer until they find a new overseer.

One of the biggest problems is that the talent pool is too limited. They just don't have the personnel who are capable of handling this. One of the few who would be capable that I can think of would be WayneS from Taiwan, but he might be getting tired of being sent around to fix problems! It's difficult enough to find someone capable in their own country, language and culture, but to send someone not qualified to begin with and add the language and cultural barriers on top really limits the possibilities.

The proper solution would be to restore the leadership as before and ensure that foreigners always remain as helpers, not imperialist rulers. However, the foreigners have already crossed the political divide in how they treated the two local workers and they are likely far too proud to admit an error there and fix it.

Sooner or later, the white Western male overseers are going to have to come to the realization that they are not a superior species and do not have the exclusive 2x2 franchise for foreign countries.

[fixit]

Nov 21, 2013 17:21:40 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Nov 21, 2013 17:13:42 GMT -5 fixit said:

Nathan, do you think the Canadian workers who have divided the friends in Vietnam will be removed from the work?

They demoted Darrel T. from his position as an overseer. I believe he is no longer laboring in VN. let him stay in the work as a regular worker without having the position as an overseer. When overseers from other countries they found out Dale or Lyle S. are not helping to solve the issue either, they too should leave VN and sent someone, who is capable, and able to solve the problems over there so there's peace and unity within the Church. Or having someone within VN as a temp. overseer until they find a new overseer.

Mr. Chau and Mr. Hoa did a fine job through the difficult years after the foreign workers fled.

Why do they need white English-speaking males now to order them around?

[fixit]

Disclosure statement: I am a white English-speaking male myself.

[quizzer]

Nov 21, 2013 0:45:33 GMT -5 minhthanh said:

Nov 20, 2013 14:18:21 GMT -5 @dennisj said:

WHAT? Workers apologize? Admit to being wrong publicly and honestly?

This is what my older sister want and pray to see from her workers (She still in their fellowship but not agree with their doing!)
She said: "I feel very easy... It seems hard for them !..." I'm keeping in my pray... My older sister has a tender heart...

One day, my sister came into my house and said to me: - "Workers asked me to separate with you !..."  My answer is; "Why I have to separate with my sister, while she doesn't do anything wrong to me."

Don't separate from your sister - serving God is about love for one another, not devotion to a system or traditions. We have this problem in the States, and it divides families. It's never been a good thing or a Godly thing, and I'm sorry that it's being exported to you.

[dmmichgood]

Nov 21, 2013 19:55:34 GMT -5 fixit said:

Disclosure statement: I am a white English-speaking male myself.

Some people complain that the "world in a terrible shape," and that we need to get "God" back into our lives!

Amazing!

GOD was a Male, basically White, -not English speaking, of course, since the English  weren't around then.

If the world is in such a state of decay, who has been in charge of that Western world? Who is the cause?

That Male, White GOD?

Nah!, of course not! Perish the thought! Couldn't be!

(and if you don't agree, we'll burn you at the stake)

for the sake of disclosure:  I'm a white English speaking white FE-MALE!

[Lee]

Told you this is no place for sheep.

[minhthanh]

My family are having vacation far from our residential place for four days. when returning home, we will participate to TMB again. Thank you for praying for us, having words to encourage us to keep more faithful to God. There are still many issues we want to mention to ring an alarming bell so that they will not repeat these things somewhere else. Thank you.

[fred]

Nov 21, 2013 17:10:59 GMT -5 fixit said:

Nathan, was it right or wrong for:

1. A worker to tell minhthanh's sister to shun her?

2. Uncle Chau to be banished from the work in Vietnam?

Has Chau been banished from the work in Vietnam? At present I believe he is on a convention tour in Australia and will return to Vietnam early in the new year. Will he not be allowed to preach when he returns?

[CherieKropp]

fred asked:  Has Chau been banished from the work in Vietnam? At present I believe he is on a convention tour in Australia and will return to Vietnam early in the new year. Will he not be allowed to preach when he returns?

Fred--nice to see you on TMB again. In answer to your question...seems Chau was put out of the work for 19 months and then was reinstated.  Mr. Bau and Minh Thanh wrote:

“They…found the way to drive Châu out from his ministry! Many elders, friends disagreed with
such actions, so they stood up, spoke and wrote many letters to them. They had visited my own house and received letters from us about the problem in my country... (Uncle Dale S. & Lyle S., Morris, Darrel, Colin...) Who know about the situation in VN should know me, because I'm the one of their victim right after uncle Châu.”. (Minh Thanh)

“The situation has been getting worse and worse. That is the reason Dale Shultz sent Lyle Shultz to take place of Darrel Turner. Dale must sent his brother Lyle in order bring peace and unity and take Darrel’s place! They had expelled Châu out of work until Darrel left Vietnam!!! They did not let Châu preach in Vietnam. They sent him to Cambodia, East Timor, Australia (while sending many foreigner workers to Việtnam).” (Nguyen Huu Bau)

They drove Mr. Chau out the work with some untrue reasons! Many elders and friends spoke up but not allowed! I didn’t agree with the deeds of Darrel or Lyle because my family were their victims (relating to their finding the way to kick out uncle Châu… Although we had talked, given evidence, ideas to edify many times. They have seen…known…their wrongs but they didn’t want to correct… and at last they expelled us too…) (Minh Thanh)

After 19 months they permitted Chau to return, but sent him to preach in Cambodia, East Timor and now in Australia, while in VN we need him very much. (Bau)

[CherieKropp]

Nov 22, 2013 11:48:10 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Nov 22, 2013 11:45:34 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Chau has been laboring in Australia for 6 months so after attending conventions from there and another country, he will return to VN in Januray of next year.

According to who?

[gecko45]

D.T. is back in the Far East, on convention rounds. Malaysia currently, from what I heard.

Not sure where he will be once the convention tour is done but hopefully the powers that be know that unless he returns to Vietnam with an apology his presence there is not adding to any harmony.

[Deleted]

Nov 22, 2013 21:58:49 GMT -5 gecko45 said:

D.T. is back in the Far East, on convention rounds. Malaysia currently, from what I heard.

Not sure where he will be once the convention tour is done but hopefully the powers that be know that unless he returns to Vietnam with an apology his presence there is not adding to any harmony.

I would imagine that the powers that be are certain that the fault lies with the friends who have gotten a "bad spirit" and have chosen to go against God's Sent Ones. We need to be clear on this, DT was simply acting on behalf of the overall ministry. He is not a bad fellow and he is simply a product of the system. He represented the whole ministry over there and reflected it in his actions. It is unlikely that he did anything against the wishes of the powers that be. That is why no apology from anyone is forthcoming.....or at least the chances range somewhere between slim to none.

Let's put it another way. Given the mindset at the top echelons of the ministry group,it is practically impossible for any of them to properly resolve this issue. They will seek to smooth things over with those who remain in and move on from there. This is a pattern we have seen over and over again.

[Deleted]

Well put, Clearday -- And I agree that the problem is not DT or MG or LS or DS --- The problem is the basic 2x2 doctrine that first actively creates this kind of contempt for individuals who trust the leadings of God more than the dictates of overseeing workers. And then the complete lack of doctrinal capacity to back out of obviously unChristian decisions that leadership quite clearly has made.

This prime example of a completely unChristian behavior, is just one in a long list of similar examples of 2x2 corruption that everyone involved understands will never be put right.

The issues themselves are a horror in themselves --- but perhaps the greatest question mark for some of is, is the large group of membership that understand the full scope of this ugliness, yet choose to continue to support the system as the perfect way of God!! It says alot about respect for basic truth, and respect and love for the Christian spirit within the group -- where 2x2ism has time and time again proved to be a total failure.

[fixit]

Nathan, I agree with you that 2x2ism is not a total failure.

Its the current leadership that's a total failure.

I can't recommend the system to anyone in its present condition, as discussed below:

Nov 22, 2013 10:45:17 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

fred asked:  Has Chau been banished from the work in Vietnam? At present I believe he is on a convention tour in Australia and will return to Vietnam early in the new year. Will he not be allowed to preach when he returns?

Fred--nice to see you on TMB again. In answer to your question...seems Chau was put out of the work for 19 months and then was reinstated.  Mr. Bau and Minh Thanh wrote:

“They…found the way to drive Châu out from his ministry! Many elders, friends disagreed with
such actions, so they stood up, spoke and wrote many letters to them. They had visited my own house and received letters from us about the problem in my country... (Uncle Dale S. & Lyle S., Morris, Darrel, Colin...) Who know about the situation in VN should know me, because I'm the one of their victim right after uncle Châu.”. (Minh Thanh)

“The situation has been getting worse and worse. That is the reason Dale Shultz sent Lyle Shultz to take place of Darrel Turner. Dale must sent his brother Lyle in order bring peace and unity and take Darrel’s place! They had expelled Châu out of work until Darrel left Vietnam!!! They did not let Châu preach in Vietnam. They sent him to Cambodia, East Timor, Australia (while sending many foreigner workers to Việtnam).” (Nguyen Huu Bau)

They drove Mr. Chau out the work with some untrue reasons! Many elders and friends spoke up but not allowed! I didn’t agree with the deeds of Darrel or Lyle because my family were their victims (relating to their finding the way to kick out uncle Châu… Although we had talked, given evidence, ideas to edify many times. They have seen…known…their wrongs but they didn’t want to correct… and at last they expelled us too…) (Minh Thanh)

After 19 months they permitted Chau to return, but sent him to preach in Cambodia, East Timor and now in Australia, while in VN we need him very much. (Bau)

[fixit]

Nov 23, 2013 14:40:51 GMT -5 NathanB said:

According to the native workers and the friends in VN the fellowship and their ministry was prospering, and growing until 3 yrs ago when the Canadians tried to change things, personalities clashed between the workers, and 100 more of the friends but before that they enjoyed their "golden years" before and after the war.

Don't dismiss it as "personality clashes".

Its much more serious than that Nathan.

Its more like wolves amongst the sheep.

[Deleted]

Nov 23, 2013 15:41:16 GMT -5 fixit said:

Nov 23, 2013 14:40:51 GMT -5 NathanB said:

According to the native workers and the friends in VN the fellowship and their ministry was prospering, and growing until 3 yrs ago when the Canadians tried to change things, personalities clashed between the workers, and 100 more of the friends but before that they enjoyed their "golden years" before and after the war.

Don't dismiss it as "personality clashes".

Its much more serious than that Nathan.

Its more like wolves amongst the sheep.

When the first loyalty is to the system, then problems are always framed as one-off, rogue types of situations. It is practically inconceivable to examine the overall system for errors, weaknesses and evils. I have seen this too many times, and that is where Nathan is at, but he is far from being alone. So his solution is to swap out one "wolf" for another "wolf". Sure, these are nice friendly wolves who even think they are sheep and even dress like sheep, but they are products of their teachings and beliefs and cannot act like anything but a wolf.

[fixit]

It's probably not as easy as classifying people as "wolf" or "shepherd".

It would be more accurate to say "wolf-like" attitudes and actions are the problem.

Paul gave a warning to overseers about what the wolf nature would do:

Acts 20:26 Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of any of you.

27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God.

28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.

30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

[gecko45]

But what if the "Shepherds" are turning a blind eye to the wolves and the destruction being done. They keep telling the sheep that everything is alright and that things will get better, just have faith.

The "Shepherds" still are blind to the fact that wolves exist among them and they are perpetuating a system that rewards ambitious, wolfish individuals.

[fixit]

Jesus taught about shepherd-like attitudes and actions:

Luke 15:1 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus.

2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”

3 Then Jesus told them this parable:

4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?

5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders

6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’

7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

The dividing of the flock in Vietnam looks more like the results of wolf-like attitudes and actions.

[Deleted]

Nov 23, 2013 18:04:43 GMT -5 fixit said:

It's probably not as easy as classifying people as "wolf" or "shepherd".

It would be more accurate to say "wolf-like" attitudes and actions are the problem.

Paul gave a warning to overseers about what the wolf nature would do:

Acts 20:26 Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of any of you.

27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God.

28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.

30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

I think that is right. It's not really right to label these workers as wolves....or as shepherds either. They are just people trying to do what they were trained to do, not "savage wolves" at all. The problem is that they have all been trained to come in as overseers and lord it over the people and those who oppose them are pushed out or pushed down. That's the "wolf" aspect and they are all like that because they all believe they are doing the right thing to operate in that manner to protect "the kingdom" and make it the same the world over.

DarrelT I am sure, is a fine nice fellow. So was JimKnipe. They are just taken up trying to do what conventional wisdom told them to do in protecting the kingdom.

[fixit]

Nov 23, 2013 18:05:32 GMT -5 gecko45 said:

But what if the "Shepherds" are turning a blind eye to the wolves and the destruction being done. They keep telling the sheep that everything is alright and that things will get better, just have faith.

The "Shepherds" still are blind to the fact that wolves exist among them and they are perpetuating a system that rewards ambitious, wolfish individuals.

It's like the shepherds standing back while the wolves are ripping and tearing and devouring and scattering the sheep.

"God will resolve the situation in his own time".

"We must of careful not to get ahead of the almighty".

"Who can lay a hand on the Lord’s anointed and be guiltless?"

[Deleted]

Nov 23, 2013 18:16:48 GMT -5 fixit said:

Nov 23, 2013 18:05:32 GMT -5 gecko45 said:

But what if the "Shepherds" are turning a blind eye to the wolves and the destruction being done. They keep telling the sheep that everything is alright and that things will get better, just have faith.

The "Shepherds" still are blind to the fact that wolves exist among them and they are perpetuating a system that rewards ambitious, wolfish individuals.

It's like the shepherds standing back while the wolves are ripping and tearing and devouring and scattering the sheep.

"God will resolve the situation in his own time".

"We must of careful not to get ahead of the almighty".

"Who can lay a hand on the Lord’s anointed and be guiltless?"

Typically, the same species never turns on its own kind.

[fixit]

Nov 23, 2013 18:10:03 GMT -5 @clearday said:

DarrelT I am sure, is a fine nice fellow. So was JimKnipe. They are just taken up trying to do what conventional wisdom told them to do in protecting the kingdom.

They're protecting their own kingdom which is a religious system.

Here's how to work in the interests of God's kingdom:

Matthew 20:25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.

26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,

27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—

28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

[Deleted]

There were a number of protests at the description of 2x2ism as a total failure. Perhaps the word total needs some definition.

As an organization it perhaps isn't complete failure -- it has lasted over a hundred years now and has built up a significant membership base. Exists in quite a number of countries, and has established a well working control system from an organizational perspective.

However as a proponent of the Christian spirit in our world it is hard to define it as anything but "Total failure". Instead of the Christian spirit of love, it actively teaches contempt for the vast majority of people in the world around it --- even in this case in Vietnam (and many other similar situations) it actively teaches contempt and rejection for even its own converts if they should trust their own convictions more than official 2x2 doctrine. 2x2ism actively teaches and practices dishonesty in countless issues. As well as it actively teaches and practices a self-righteousness that is second to none in the world we live in. It clear teaching of the supremacy of leadership as the untouchable greatest, is in sharp contrast to basic Christianity. How that anyone can regard it less than a total and complete failure as far as promoting the Christian spirit is hard to imagine.