Vietnam

[Deleted]

Nathan, I have quite close contact with many of the excommunicated folks from the Alberta mass-excommunication and I have never heard of any kind of appology for all the ungodliness that the work was responsible for, from any of the leading workers in that part --- And I have never heard of any of the directly excommunicated ever coming back. However today, there are very few workers or friends that don't understand the enormous ungodly scope of the dealings of the work and leadership in the work, at that time -- but most just lift their proud heads and pretend that it never happened!!

That is the point that I am making -- However the administration might change in Vietnam they will never put things right. Like we read in the bible -- they will just continue to wallow in their own mire. Nathan this IS a repeat of the same mess that Dale S was responsible for in Western Canada. He evidently hasn't learned.

[Deleted]

Nov 19, 2013 11:52:30 GMT -5 edgarmassey said:

Nathan, I have quite close contact with many of the excommunicated folks from the Alberta mass-excommunication and I have never heard of any kind of appology for all the ungodliness that the work was responsible for, from any of the leading workers in that part --- And I have never heard of any of the directly excommunicated ever coming back. However today, there are very few workers or friends that don't understand the enormous ungodly scope of the dealings of the work and leadership in the work, at that time -- but most just lift their proud heads and pretend that it never happened!!

That is the point that I am making -- However the administration might change in Vietnam they will never put things right. Like we read in the bible -- they will just continue to wallow in their own mire. Nathan this IS a repeat of the same mess that Dale S was responsible for in Western Canada. He evidently hasn't learned.

You're right, a new overseer can't fix things when there is no understanding of the problem. And that's one main reason why an apology was never made in Alberta as they don't understand (or don't want to understand) what they did wrong.

If Alberta is the template, then the overseers will open the door for the 100 to re-profess and come back under the control of the foreign overseers. The underlying belief is that the foreign overseers are the closest to God and know what is best for Vietnam.

[CherieKropp]

Minh Thanh copied Fred Allen's letter that was:

Signed,

C.F.W. Allen
Cliff Toane
Robert Doeke

copies of the above forwarded to:

Eldon Tenniswood
Willis Propp
Paul Sharp
Ray Corbett

---

I'm wondering why Fred sent copies to: Robert Doeke and Ray Corbett???

Were they overseers of some area? 
Ray preached in Queensland AU.

[jondough]

Just remember these words;

We could wonder why the support remains so solidly behind Willis and Jim, and it would be possible to advance a number of possible reasons. We know that this stand has been taken after hearing a number of concerns expressed from both workers and friends. I would just like to encourage you to accept this support that Willis and Jim have at the present time as a reality and to respect that decision because it comes from a group of men whom God has called and whom God is using in guiding his work in this part of the earth. If our attitude towards them becomes disrespectful, it is a reflection on our attitude towards God as well.

We realize that the fact that we are servants of God, or even very responsible servants of God, doesn't make us infallible. However, something that is very much a part of being a child of God is to respect those who are over us in the Lord, to pray for them, to obey them, to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. Their judgement may not always be right, but it is always right for us to respect that judgement and to work with it in the best way that we possibly can.

So, there are two possibilities regarding the decision of the overseers to maintain and support the status quo in Alberta. One possibility is that the decision is a right decision for the province. That would mean that they are seeing some things in the picture that some of us are missing when we look at it. Another possibility is that it was not the best decision for the province. But, whichever is the applicable possibility in this case, it does remain the right thing to respect that decision because of where it has come from and to work with it no matter what our own thoughts might be on the subject. This is a very practical area where we can exercise the teaching of 11 Corinthians 10:5, "- bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." We may think that we are "obeying men" and not "obeying Christ" when we submit to something that seems wrong to our own thinking. However, the scriptures teach so much about submission e.g. to the government of the land, wives to husbands, children to parents, the Lord's people to the ministry, etc. That teaching doesn't just apply when the governments, husbands, parents or workers are 100% on the right track, but it applies in a very comprehensive way. We also know that a point could be reached in these different relationships in which submission is generally expected where, because of some deep conviction before God, we would feel that we could not submit to something that is being asked of us. However, there is also great danger in "not submitting" and in taking a rebel attitude when the situation doesn't warrant that extreme position in God's mind.

So, I would like to encourage all of you to accept the present situation, knowing that quite a bit has been done to bring concerns to the attention of the overseers. The present situation remains in spite of these concerns having been very publicly expressed and drawn to the attention of the overseers. Whether the decision is right or wrong, the right thing for all of us is to respect it because of those who have made the judgement. If the decision is wrong, I am sure that the Lord will have ways of correcting that over time. He still is very much on the throne. In the final analysis, there are some things that we just have to leave in his hands. I believe that for anyone to try to force changes now, after all that has been done to bring issues into focus, that it could mean just being very much out of our place.

Dale Shultz

[CherieKropp]

There are five (5) fundamental aspects of an apology, according to the book The Five Languages of Apology by Gary Chapman and Jennifer Thomas. Restated, these are:

1. Confession, regret and acknowledgement of their hurt/harm/pain: I am sorry
2. Accept Responsibility: I was wrong
3. Genuine Repentance: I will not do this again
4. Restitution: What can I do to make this right?
5. Request Forgiveness: Will you please forgive me?

Questions:
Q:  What could/would happen if the workers tendered a genuine 5 point apology as outlined above?

Q:  Would an apology from the new overseer work?  Or would the apologies need to be from the particular individuals who inflicted the injury/pain/hurt?

[Deleted]

Nov 19, 2013 12:21:13 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

There are five (5) fundamental aspects of an apology, according to the book The Five Languages of Apology by Gary Chapman and Jennifer Thomas. Restated, these are:

1. Confession, regret and acknowledgement of their hurt/harm/pain: I am sorry
2. Accept Responsibility: I was wrong
3. Genuine Repentance: I will not do this again
4. Restitution: What can I do to make this right?
5. Request Forgiveness: Will you please forgive me?

Questions:
Q:  What could/would happen if the workers tendered a genuine 5 point apology as outlined above?

Q:  Would an apology from the new overseer work?  Or would the apologies need to be from the particular individuals who inflicted the injury/pain/hurt?

Of a genuine apology would likely work and that sort of attitude would open up the whole church to a new spiritual level of humility and forgiveness.

The problem is, when you not only think you have done nothing wrong but you think that in general you have done everything right, an apology is either impossible or fake.

[lazarus66]

Obviously, the workers can't admit to wrong. They are guided by the Holy spirit (they claim) and to admit to wrong would open the door to the real workings of the group from the beginning in Ireland in 1897 and William Irvine, Ed Cooney and the others that started this thing, and how Jack Carrol and George Walker took over and ran with some of the original ideas and made up the rest to put the workers in an elevated position.
They seem to have forgotten they are supposed to be servants, and servants are below those they serve........

[Lee]

... At any rate, a wholesale inquiry into the origins, history, and landscape of Christianity might be in order for these 100 sheep. They won't have Derrell Turner on their side. Overhearing conversation between my mom and him, he's determined they're another case of "Alberta Infidels".

[Lee]

Nov 19, 2013 12:18:04 GMT -5 jondough said:

Just remember these words;

We could wonder why the support remains so solidly behind Willis and Jim, and it would be possible to advance a number of possible reasons. We know that this stand has been taken after hearing a number of concerns expressed from both workers and friends. I would just like to encourage you to accept this support that Willis and Jim have at the present time as a reality and to respect that decision because it comes from a group of men whom God has called and whom God is using in guiding his work in this part of the earth. If our attitude towards them becomes disrespectful, it is a reflection on our attitude towards God as well.

We realize that the fact that we are servants of God, or even very responsible servants of God, doesn't make us infallible. However, something that is very much a part of being a child of God is to respect those who are over us in the Lord, to pray for them, to obey them, to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. Their judgement may not always be right, but it is always right for us to respect that judgement and to work with it in the best way that we possibly can.

So, there are two possibilities regarding the decision of the overseers to maintain and support the status quo in Alberta. One possibility is that the decision is a right decision for the province. That would mean that they are seeing some things in the picture that some of us are missing when we look at it. Another possibility is that it was not the best decision for the province. But, whichever is the applicable possibility in this case, it does remain the right thing to respect that decision because of where it has come from and to work with it no matter what our own thoughts might be on the subject. This is a very practical area where we can exercise the teaching of 11 Corinthians 10:5, "- bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." We may think that we are "obeying men" and not "obeying Christ" when we submit to something that seems wrong to our own thinking. However, the scriptures teach so much about submission e.g. to the government of the land, wives to husbands, children to parents, the Lord's people to the ministry, etc. That teaching doesn't just apply when the governments, husbands, parents or workers are 100% on the right track, but it applies in a very comprehensive way. We also know that a point could be reached in these different relationships in which submission is generally expected where, because of some deep conviction before God, we would feel that we could not submit to something that is being asked of us. However, there is also great danger in "not submitting" and in taking a rebel attitude when the situation doesn't warrant that extreme position in God's mind.

So, I would like to encourage all of you to accept the present situation, knowing that quite a bit has been done to bring concerns to the attention of the overseers. The present situation remains in spite of these concerns having been very publicly expressed and drawn to the attention of the overseers. Whether the decision is right or wrong, the right thing for all of us is to respect it because of those who have made the judgement. If the decision is wrong, I am sure that the Lord will have ways of correcting that over time. He still is very much on the throne. In the final analysis, there are some things that we just have to leave in his hands. I believe that for anyone to try to force changes now, after all that has been done to bring issues into focus, that it could mean just being very much out of our place.

Dale Shultz

Dale Shultz could be summed up in eight words: The workers are right even when they're wrong. I would tell him to ditch his partisanship towards the F&W and investigate the world's religions on the assumption he hasn't known his ass from a hole in the ground up to now.

[déjà vu]

last year when Derrell Turner was in town, many said he looked like a sick man. any idea what is ailing him

[logain]

Nov 19, 2013 22:54:22 GMT -5 déjà vu said:

last year when Derrell Turner was in town, many said he looked like a sick man. any idea what is ailing him

Is he back in Vietnam now?

He was in western Canada thia past summer, at one of the Didsbury conventions I think. First time to lay eyes on him so couldn't say if he was sick or just looks that way all the time.

[lazarus66]

Lee, I guess that is what I was saying in my response.

Workers are led by the Holy Spirit, and They are never wrong.

Another of the examples of the 2x2 copy and paste bible. Apparently, they have deleted Jonah from their bibles because there, it would appear God did a little "second guessing"? Of course that was back in the old testament b efore the "shores of Galilee (the new name for Ireland in 2x2ism) ministry.

[minhthanh]

I would like to hear what Minh Thanh, 100 friends, and Hoa's plan now and in the near future.

First I would like to let you know that all opinion here is my own idea, I am not represent for any others.

We can not change any thing we had done in The Past. But God give us the chance to do right TODAY. The song TODAY IS MINE come to my mind. I'm not only to do the help for other... but also it's time for me to check myself and make all in right way... May God help me, and lead me Just for today, be faith and be true (hymn 342).

Tomorrow's in His Mercy hand
Hymn 270 Tomorrow’s Path.

Chorus:

In love the Father ever veils the future, Hides from us tomorrow’s care; For well He knows today’s own burdens are enough for you and me to bear..



So I have no plan for my self, I trust in God, and believe He will do the best for us.



If a new admin from another country replace the current one, that welcome all of you back with open arms. Will all of you return to the golden years of fellowship or do you think most of you will Stay as you are and worship without the current friends and workers.

In the past we obey the workers and don’t mind they are local or foreigner, just follow because we see Christ in their life. And the love and the unity among workers and friends, especially the leader. No golden any more in the church now… many friends and even elders told me that: Now the asmosphere in the meeting not nice such as we had in the past.

We never mind when and where they come from. But only want to see like the hymn 218 “LOVE is the Kingdom’s banner” We only want to see the Spirit of God in their lives and we follow.



I'm wondering why Fred sent copies to: Robert Doecke and Ray Corbett???

I don’t know the reason why either, but I know they both live in Australia. Uncle Châu has just met Robert Doecke in Australia, It seems he worries much about the situation in Vietnam.



.



1. Confession, regret and acknowledgement of their hurt/harm/pain: I am sorry

2. Accept Responsibility: I was wrong

3. Genuine Repentance: I will not do this again

4. Restitution: What can I do to make this right?

5. Request Forgiveness: Will you please forgive me?

Of a genuine apology would likely work and that sort of attitude would open up the whole church to a new spiritual level of humility and forgiveness

The problem is, when you not only think you have done nothing wrong but you think that in general you have done everything right, an apology is either impossible or fake.

I dream a gathering as in Nehemiah 8

Nehemiah 8

1 And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the broad place that was before the water gate;

5 And Ezra opened the book in the sight of all the people; (for he was above all the people;) and when he opened it, all the people stood up: 6 and Ezra blessed Jehovah, the great God. And all the people answered, Amen, Amen, with the lifting up of their hands: and they bowed their heads, and worshipped Jehovah with their faces to the ground.

With very respect maner and humble heart

This day is holy unto Jehovah your God; mourn not, nor weep. For all the people wept, when they heard the words of the law. 10 Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send portions unto him for whom nothing is prepared; for this day is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye grieved; for the joy of Jehovah is your strength.

Lament heartbreak… Turn out joys… We all are the sinners… we all had to asked forgive before God… then we’ll meet their together.

We need your prayer …

Minh Thanh

[jondough]

Our thoughts and prayers are with you Minhthanh.

[sharingtheriches]

Nov 19, 2013 12:05:43 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Nov 19, 2013 11:52:30 GMT -5 edgarmassey said:

Nathan, I have quite close contact with many of the excommunicated folks from the Alberta mass-excommunication and I have never heard of any kind of appology for all the ungodliness that the work was responsible for, from any of the leading workers in that part --- And I have never heard of any of the directly excommunicated ever coming back. However today, there are very few workers or friends that don't understand the enormous ungodly scope of the dealings of the work and leadership in the work, at that time -- but most just lift their proud heads and pretend that it never happened!!

That is the point that I am making -- However the administration might change in Vietnam they will never put things right. Like we read in the bible -- they will just continue to wallow in their own mire. Nathan this IS a repeat of the same mess that Dale S was responsible for in Western Canada. He evidently hasn't learned.

You're right, a new overseer can't fix things when there is no understanding of the problem. And that's one main reason why an apology was never made in Alberta as they don't understand (or don't want to understand) what they did wrong.

If Alberta is the template, then the overseers will open the door for the 100 to re-profess and come back under the control of the foreign overseers. The underlying belief is that the foreign overseers are the closest to God and know what is best for Vietnam.

This all fits right in there with what someone told us not long ago about what they'd heard in the gospel mtgs. And the preaching was all about the 2x2 itinerant ministry and the mtgs. in the home. This is a "lifeless" gospel, isn't it? How would it appeal to potential converts in that they came to hear someone's opinions or beliefs about the Christian Saviour Jesus Christ and all they hear about Jesus is that Jesus mandated to have a 2x2 itinerant celibate ministry...not one word how Jesus Christ became the ransom for those who would believe in him!

I see the dead works of such a gospel as being perhaps the poison that is killing off the membership for when people wake up and see that the workers are putting themselves in the place of God and Saviour then they know that the 2x2 religion is only a weak manmade religion. And thus they won't come back for the chance to see if thesepreachers ever get into preaching about Jesus Christ......it is all dead works and works that only produce in the darkness, for the workers do not welcome the light any more.

This is one of the reasons I left the religion, it is no more what it used to be when it first started out then another religion isn't like them. They ARE becoming a phariseal cult through their insistence on pushing everything under the proverbial carpet....and it seems to me that what is occurring is what God said he'd do to those who disobeyed him or the commandments and that was He would give them over to a reprobate heart and I understand that means that someone becomes unknowledgeable or lack conscience and will be found to be doing everything in the world as long as it makes them look okay. And they refuse to look at themselves in the light of day....the "fruits of darkness"....and I pity them for they'll never understand what they've allowed the fellowship to become.

[sharingtheriches]

Nov 19, 2013 12:36:30 GMT -5 lazarus66 said:

Obviously, the workers can't admit to wrong. They are guided by the Holy spirit (they claim) and to admit to wrong would open the door to the real workings of the group from the beginning in Ireland in 1897 and William Irvine, Ed Cooney and the others that started this thing, and how Jack Carrol and George Walker took over and ran with some of the original ideas and made up the rest to put the workers in an elevated position.
They seem to have forgotten they are supposed to be servants, and servants are below those they serve........

The reason there is no apology coming forward is that they are likely turned over to a reprobate mind in which they cannot even begin to see just where and how they were ever wrong. I know that some refuse to listen to anyone trying to tell them about one of their workers doing something that was out of bounds or even criminal...the favorite phrase is "I won't ever take accusation about one of my peers".....Well, I can that is necessary since perhaps the one who some try to speak to about the negative behaviours of their peers simply because that worker itself is as guilty of wrong behaviours at some point of time...and hopefully they have repented!

But we read in the bible what happens when God turns people over to a reprobate heart or mind.....and it isn't a pretty picture for certainty those reprobated hearts or minds have NO connection to our God and Saviour and certainly lost to the leading by the Holy Spirit!

[CherieKropp]

Did Willis P. apologize for excommunicating the Alberta Friends?  That was what hurt them the most--he in effect, cast them into hell, per their beliefs.

[Deleted]

Nov 20, 2013 11:09:40 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Willis P. wrote two letters of apologies for one of the Alberta Mess Incorp. document. The workers are humans. It takes great humility to say you're wrong but it brings peace and rest to all who are involved.

~~~~ Alberta Incorporation Document:
November 9, 1996 Edmonton, Canada (1 of 2 letters)

To All of concern:

One of the workers in XXXXXXX (certain country visa was) soon to expire, was faced with the problem of being refused permission to remain in the country because the "Group" she was representing was "NOT" a registered body in XXXXXXX. Our sister who labors there, was the companion to the girl in question, and she appealed urgently to us that we do something about it, because any approach they made to the local authorities was to "no avail" and they needed help badly. Above that there was a deadline to meet. This certain country XXXXXXX would accept our registration as backing.

We in Canada, had been registering in Ottawa (Canada's capital City) during WW II. A search was made there to retrieve such a document, but all in vain. While registration is not required in Great Britain, USA or Canada, to help our workers in this certain country, we sought a lawyer's aid, and as a result, a very complicated document was made up. We learned, to our dismay, that to be registered we had to become "Incorporated" as a non-profitable Society. While it was solely for the "Purpose" of those in Authority, the document gave us a long handled name. We were hesitant to do it, but for the sake of our workers we signed the document. This XXXXXXX (certain country) accepted our efforts, for which we are thankful, and officials there will now "Continue" to recognize the workers in their country.

However, the problem has arisen, Canada recently passed a Freedom of Information Bill. Through this, our document is on the Internet, and it has now gotten into the hands of the "Dissenters." I am sure our friends, will understand the reason why we implement it. In many countries, registration is necessary. We are in the process "NOW" of having the whole (Alberta) document canceled, since it is "NOT" required in Canada, and we hope the matter will settle down in time. Thank you for giving this information to any of our friends or workers who may inquire. I am so sorry that such a problem should have arisen because of my naivety.

Yours as always,
(signature of) Willis Propp


November 18, 1996 ( 2 of 2 letters)
To whom it may concern:

The concept of the Document of Registration that was drawn up and filed in Alberta, Canada on 5th of May, 1995 was "Totally" contrary to the basic tenets of our fellowship, and so was "Totally" wrong. I, Willis Propp, acted unilaterally without due consultation with my Seniors in the ministry, which made my action "Totally" wrong. Hence to have placed my signature of acceptance upon such a Document was also "Totally" out of order and wrong. In view of all this, I hear by take the following steps in recourse:

1. I assume full responsibility for involving in this process my fellow workers in Alberta, Canada whose signatures also appeared on the said Document.
2. I sorely grieve over and regret the distress and unrest that has been brought to bear upon so many of our beloved brethren.
3. I have instructed a lawyer on November 8, 1996, to have said Document completely revoked. Attached is a copy of this dissolution.
4. From a saddened and deeply penitent heart, I humbly offer a full apology to all concerned for all these actions on my part that are so out of line and wrong.

Signed by,
Willis Propp

The backward thing is that Willis did nothing wrong by incorporating an entity to help workers get into other countries. Certainly his actions did not directly affect anyone or harm anyone, only helped a worker get into Romania. What he did was legal and helped spread their gospel.

Workers should apologize when their actions hurt people, and don't worry about apologizing over something that doesn't matter much.

[Deleted]

Nov 20, 2013 11:44:45 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Alberta Incorp. document was a big deal back then, it was one of the straws that broke the camel's back in the excommunication. Hey, you workers said your church has no name or Corp. so what is this Incorp. in Alberta by Willis P...... So, Willis P. did the right thing by explaining his mistake, and wrong doing against the main group belief. I wish Willis P. had written an apology from the workers side of wrong doing in ex-communication many church by NOT working things out carefully, with prayers first.

If an excommunication apology is going to be as muddled as this one, it would be a waste of time.

Summary of the letters:

Letter 1:

"We registered so that we could spread the gospel to Romania. Even though we have registered for other purposes such as for CO status in WWII, a bunch of you howled and complained about it so we are canceling it."


Letter 2:

"The same bunch of you traditionalists keep howling for an apology so I take responsibility for getting messed up on the basic tenets of our faith. I thought that our main tenet was to spread the gospel but apparently I was wrong and the main tenet is that we don't register anything and stay underground in case we start to look like those ghastly "organized false churches". I should have known that spreading the gospel wasn't as important as appearing unorganized even though we are about as organized as any church group in the world."




I can only imagine what an apology letter about the excommunications would look like! They haven't learned a single thing from the excommunications in Alberta which is why they did the same thing in Vietnam.

[fixit]

Willis should have apologised for including the friends in a registered society without their knowledge.

The books and records of the society may be inspected by any Member of the Society at the annual meeting provided for herein or at any time upon giving reasonable notice and arranging a time satisfactory to the officer or officers having charge of same. Each member of the Board shall at all times have access to such books and records.

Sounds good?

Willis never got around to telling the members of the society that they were members, or that the society even existed.

Does anybody think he ever would have?

[Deleted]

Nov 20, 2013 12:39:22 GMT -5 fixit said:

Willis should have apologised for including the friends in a registered society without their knowledge.

The books and records of the society may be inspected by any Member of the Society at the annual meeting provided for herein or at any time upon giving reasonable notice and arranging a time satisfactory to the officer or officers having charge of same. Each member of the Board shall at all times have access to such books and records.

Sounds good?

Willis never got around to telling the members of the society that they were members, or that the society even existed.

Does anybody think he ever would have?

Had he been upfront and open about this with everyone, there wouldn't have been such a feeling of betrayal. There would have been some grumblers but practical people (the majority) would accept it as undesirable but necessary.

These overseers and many workers do whatever they choose without being questioned or accountable so it's habitual to keep things quiet and in the dark.

[Deleted]

WHAT? Workers apologize? Admit to being wrong publicly and honestly? Restore excommunicated people to their group? Surely you jest or live in a fairytale dream land. Not a practice of that group of 2&2 workers anywhere in the world that I have ever heard of.... Sad. Harming people by the few or hundreds, such a precedent simply cannot be followed, as once admitting to one wrong, where can it stop having committed so many many wrongs as a group.

They say that people are wrong, but the way is perfect. I have learned that even though their way is often wrong, their people (some) are quite perfect, (complete.) No longer believe the mantra, people are wrong but way is perfect, for by way they mean the 2&2 system, not a being who lived and died that others might die and live.

______________________________________

For any interested, Katie has gone to spend the rest of the week with her family in FLA. I could not go along, stayed home (to care for the dogs, as good an excuse as any!)

[fixit]

Nov 20, 2013 14:54:03 GMT -5 NathanB said:

We all know the friends and workers have made mistakes! nobody is perfect. Only Jesus is perfect, humble, righteous, fair and balance in judgment. He didn't need to write a letter of apology to anyone one but the rest of us, who made mistakes and need to humble ourselves and say, "I am Sorry when we are wrong." to heal the wounds of those who are involved, hurt feelings, forgiven, etc...

Throwing people out of the church is a pretty serious "mistake" Nathan.

You seem to put blame on the victims, most of whom did nothing worse than extend a welcome to people who the ministry rejected for dubious reasons.

It was more than a "mistake". The actions of these "ministers" was directly opposed to the teaching and example of Jesus.

[minhthanh]

who made mistakes and need to humble ourselves and say, "I am Sorry when we are wrong." to heal the wounds of those who are involved, hurt feelings, forgiven, etc...

Nathan... we don't need any sorry or apologize from them...  no one can heal the wounds but God. The only one we want to see  Whoever is overseer (the leader) should be like Paul in this 1 Cor 11  Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ.



Then the peace can came... we know that Christ is the God of peace.
18 In the first place, I hear that when you come together as a church, there are divisions among you, and to some extent I believe it. 19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God’s approval.
The divisions must happen... but if all are under the control of The Spirit of God... all will be done in the calm way.
I do hope to have an overseer follow the example of Christ.

[CherieKropp]

Nov 20, 2013 13:31:39 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Nate wrote:  There is still time left in VN.... It can be fixed... Pull out the unprofitable workers out and replace them with ones others can respect and work with, who are fair, balance and with good judgment and reasons... Who welcome the 100 friends, elders, and Hoa back with open arms to the fellowship.

How long would it take a new worker to learn the Vietnamese language? 

[fixit]

Nov 20, 2013 17:15:37 GMT -5 minhthanh said:

I do hope to have an overseer follow the example of Christ.

That would be nice!

[minhthanh]

These overseers and many workers do whatever they choose without being questioned or accountable so it's habitual to keep things quiet and in the dark.

This statement is very true... we can see it clearly with things are happening in VN.
Right after the big gathering with overseers (from some other countries), all the workers in the country (except uncle Châu), and all the elders from many provinces and areas...
To witness they declare "Chau is not in the work anymore.... because of !..."
Almost the friends fell down in pain... They chose many way to deal with workers according to what their feeling... 

My son (who loved and respected Uncle Darrel so much) said: "Uncle Darrel doesn't know the result what he does today"

From then he doesn't trust these workers any more... He said to me "I just want to be a good child with you, a good man in life... please don't force me to follow these people". Because I often advise him keep faithful  to "The Way of Truth" .


They not only kill the soul of my children... but also many others... This is the biggest pain in my heart.
Hopefully... they all still being very good children and good people in life too.

[sharingtheriches]

Nov 20, 2013 11:44:45 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Alberta Incorp. document was a big deal back then, it was one of the straws that broke the camel's back in the excommunication. Hey, you workers said your church has no name or Corp. so what is this Incorp. in Alberta by Willis P...... So, Willis P. did the right thing by explaining his mistake, and wrong doing against the main group belief. I wish Willis P. had written an apology from the workers side of wrong doing in ex-communication many church by NOT working things out carefully, with prayers first.

Nathan, from what I'd read on the documents as well as the excommunication tape...I'm not able to correlate the letters dealing with a corporation legally to help workers get in and out of difficult places WITH the excommunication surge through the friends. Maybe I'm missing something, but I just haven't seen that WP's apology has any effect on the horrors that was of the workers' mass excommunications as well as cancelling out many meetings in these excommunicated folks. I never heard or saw ANY apology from any of the workers in regards of the mass excommunications in Alberta. Where is the tie-in of WP's apology for signing incorporation papers?