Vietnam

[CherieKropp]

CD:  It appears both groups intend to continue...those with Mr. Bau with Hoa leading them as they were from the beginning (similar to Cooney's return to the way they started); and the other group with the Canadian Overseer leading them.  Whether Hoa's group sticks together remains to be seen. They tried to resolve issues for 3 years and appear to have given up now.  I wish them well.

I'm working with them to get more details.

[sharingtheriches]

thanks for posting the letter, Cherie! I hope that their group sticks together and continues in that which they feel is right. I feel it is horrible that the workers went in and have created a seemingly unbreakable chasm between the professing Viet Namese!

[Deleted]

I got a greeting from Morris Grovum regarding my moms passing -- And seeing he works in those parts have sent him a link to www.anotherstep.net/Vietnam/ and asked for his view on it all. Doubt if I will get a response ... but you never know!!

[CherieKropp]

May 28, 2013 13:56:30 GMT -5 edgarmassey said:

May 28, 2013 13:01:25 GMT -5 NathanB said:

It went back to Cliff T. days. I met him when I was in the work. I hope these Canadians workers have learned their lessons NOT to repeat their mistakes from Willis P. excommunication in Alberta. They need Work with the natives. If the workers in Alberta had been honest, answering questions truthfully things would NOT have gotten out of hands.

Thanks for that connection Nathan -- Is Cliff still living or has he passed away ... I knew him slightly as he was from BC -- but that does make somewhat of a connection as to why the Canadians would feel they should involve themselves there. Western Canada has had more of a presence in Korea and this was maybe their way of further 'colonizing' in that part of Asia - Alberta has sizable finacial muscle (thanks to Willis) so it wouldn't surprize me if this is involved. --

Don't hold your breath until the Canadian workers learn any such lessons!!

Is Cliff T. still living? 
Was it because of his health that he left VN and "couldn't continue" as Mr. Bau put it? 
Did Cliff T preach in any other countries besides Canada?

[fixit]

Nov 14, 2013 11:41:11 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Hopefully, a New admin. from another country will take over soon.

Over?

That's the problem word.

Matthew 20:25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them.

26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,

27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave—

28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

[fixit]

Nov 14, 2013 11:41:11 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Cliff T. left the ministry and got married in the 90s. I heard he had a problem with his hearings. He labored in Hongkong. One of the friends, had a business there in VN so he was able to enter in VN. He was working with Chau and Hoa in VN. Very Nice man. I believe Cliff is still alive somewhere in B.C. Canada.

I heard Cliff's problem was tinnitus:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinnitus

Too bad the ministry has such a hangup with married workers these days.

Perhaps Cliff T might have been able to help in some way?

[CherieKropp]

I have this note in my files:

Alex Mitchell was born in Scotland and migrated to New Zealand. He exercised the eldership over Singapore, Malaysia, Borneo, Thailand and Vietnam until 1974 when his memory failed and he returned to NZ where he died in 1980 at the age of 84.

Perhaps Mr Bau didnt realize he was in charge from afar. 
I notice that Alex is in one of the photos I posted on TTT.

Wonder who replaced him? 

[jondough]

Maybe i missed this but....

What is causing the major division? What do they disagree on specifically?

[CherieKropp]

Nov 14, 2013 15:33:04 GMT -5 jondough said:

Maybe i missed this but....

What is causing the major division? What do they disagree on specifically?

Nate wrote: It would be good if the Vietnamese friends tell us some the specific changes were made by DT or the Canadians adm.

I'm working on this. I received some info today re changes enforced.  I hope to get the whole story eventually.  
Nate has accurately given the bare bones issues.

[CherieKropp]

Nate wrote:  False accusation to Chau/left the ministry... After some investigation, DT left VN wrote a letter of apology to Chau.

Nate, can you tell us what the false accusation against Chau was?

[Deleted]

Nov 14, 2013 21:22:49 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Thanks, Cherie and Edgar for all of your hard work. I write to Mr. Bau two daughters, Chau, and the Vietnamese friends so they let me know some of the News over there. To Cherie and Edgar is there anyway you, folks could use the workers first name and initial last name. As I mention before their lives might be in danger when their full names are posted in your article. It's STILL a communist country! they read the Internet. Vietnamese Communists SPIES are every where, many are living in USA. Maybe down the road when US and Vietnam have a better relationship then it doesn't matter about posting their full names. Thanks, Cherie for NOT posting the workers and friends full names at the beginning of this thread. If Mr. Bau and those who gave you permission to post their full name that is up to them.

Nathan, if the workers choose to go into Vietnam under false premise, (which they clearly do) then they ought to be aware of the legal problems that this may cause -- I am not interested in running a cover up for them - I will not play their game!.

The ugly way that 2x2ism twists the truth in so many other contexts as well (in their own self-interest) is the exact reason why many of these and other problems arise. This is especially true when 2x2ism has misused their presence in Vietnam in such a gross way as they quite obviously have.

Until 2x2ism can be open and truthful about the inner workings of their organization it will continue to cause moral trauma and trouble every where they turn up. This is just one of many examples and not unique to Vietnam.

The government of Vietnam is, like the government of the US, built on the principle of the rule of law -- Neither nations succeed so well at justice in this all the time -- but it is what we have to work with, and need to accept it. After Snowden, it is strange that an American would complain about spies in other countries.

[Deleted]

Nov 15, 2013 2:50:30 GMT -5 edgarmassey said:

Nov 14, 2013 21:22:49 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Thanks, Cherie and Edgar for all of your hard work. I write to Mr. Bau two daughters, Chau, and the Vietnamese friends so they let me know some of the News over there. To Cherie and Edgar is there anyway you, folks could use the workers first name and initial last name. As I mention before their lives might be in danger when their full names are posted in your article. It's STILL a communist country! they read the Internet. Vietnamese Communists SPIES are every where, many are living in USA. Maybe down the road when US and Vietnam have a better relationship then it doesn't matter about posting their full names. Thanks, Cherie for NOT posting the workers and friends full names at the beginning of this thread. If Mr. Bau and those who gave you permission to post their full name that is up to them.

Nathan, if the workers choose to go into Vietnam under false premise, (which they clearly do) then they ought to be aware of the legal problems that this may cause -- I am not interested in running a cover up for them - I will not play their game!.

The ugly way that 2x2ism twists the truth in so many other contexts as well (in their own self-interest) is the exact reason why many of these and other problems arise. This is especially true when 2x2ism has misused their presence in Vietnam in such a gross way as they quite obviously have.

Until 2x2ism can be open and truthful about the inner workings of their organization it will continue to cause moral trauma and trouble every where they turn up. This is just one of many examples and not unique to Vietnam.

The government of Vietnam is, like the government of the US, built on the principle of the rule of law -- Neither nations succeed so well at justice in this all the time -- but it is what we have to work with, and need to accept it. After Snowden, it is strange that an American would complain about spies in other countries.

Edgar, as you feel strongly about the false pretense issue for Vietnamese visas, perhaps you should consider opening a dialogue with Vietnamese officials over the issue. If nothing else, it would at least clarify for the foreign workers whether or not they have illegally obtained a visa.

[Deleted]

Nov 14, 2013 15:28:15 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Nov 14, 2013 13:05:26 GMT -5 fixit said:

I heard Cliff's problem was tinnitus:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinnitus

Too bad the ministry has such a hangup with married workers these days.

Perhaps Cliff T might have been able to help in some way?

I heard they had sent another overseer NOT a Canadian by the name of E.R. to smooth thing out. I have met him at Boring Convention when I was in the work. Very good man. It would be great if they let him take over VN. He has some of his own staff labored in VN.

Sending in a new foreign boss isn't the answer to repair the damages, if that is the intent. A new foreign boss will only be able to "smooth over" things for those who remain committed to foreign control and foreign ways of doing things.

From what I can see so far, if they really want to fix things in VN, here are some ideas:

A change of heart by the workers with a new respect for the local people.
The full involvement of local people for operations and changes.
Restoration of the worker sent away.
Stepping down of any worker who is considered by foreigners as the overseer.
A full apology for making changes for which they had no authority to do so by usurping authority from the local people.
The foreigners should be there as helpers for the local people to run their own church, not as authoritarian foreign rulers who feel they are the sole decision makers of the VN church.

[Deleted]

Nov 15, 2013 9:24:27 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Nov 15, 2013 9:04:01 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Sending in a new foreign boss isn't the answer to repair the damages, if that is the intent. A new foreign boss will only be able to "smooth over" things for those who remain committed to foreign control and foreign ways of doing things.

From what I can see so far, if they really want to fix things in VN, here are some ideas:

A change of heart by the workers with a new respect for the local people.
The full involvement of local people for operations and changes.
Restoration of the worker sent away.
Stepping down of any worker who is considered by foreigners as the overseer.
A full apology for making changes for which they had no authority to do so by usurping authority from the local people.
The foreigners should be there as helpers for the local people to run their own church, not as authoritarian foreign rulers who feel they are the sole decision makers of the VN church.

I agree with your suggestion, CD.

Thanks Nathan. Having traveled in VN myself, in general from what I can see is that VN people are intelligent and very capable of running any enterprise that foreigners can run. Even more so, operating a very simple style of church would be extremely easy for the VN people. There were quite a few professing people there as well as local workers so that should be no problem. In fact, things went along very well without foreign overseership for a long long time so it is already proven that VN are capable of keeping the local churches vibrant and alive.

[Deleted]

Nov 15, 2013 8:54:32 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Edgar, as you feel strongly about the false pretense issue for Vietnamese visas, perhaps you should consider opening a dialogue with Vietnamese officials over the issue. If nothing else, it would at least clarify for the foreign workers whether or not they have illegally obtained a visa.

If they are following the laws of the country, and thus open about their intentions, why does Nathan have such a phobia of the implications of them being identified as they really are? Is the issue that the deception of their real intentions to preach an odd version of Christianity, when the given purpose has been given to teach English may be found out??? No government likes to be deliberatly mislead. And admit it clearday --- The ONLY reason they start English schools is to mislead the authorities!!!

[Deleted]

Nov 15, 2013 12:02:39 GMT -5 edgarmassey said:

Nov 15, 2013 8:54:32 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Edgar, as you feel strongly about the false pretense issue for Vietnamese visas, perhaps you should consider opening a dialogue with Vietnamese officials over the issue. If nothing else, it would at least clarify for the foreign workers whether or not they have illegally obtained a visa.

If they are following the laws of the country, and thus open about their intentions, why does Nathan have such a phobia of the implications of them being identified as they really are? Is the issue that the deception of their real intentions to preach an odd version of Christianity, when the given purpose has been given to teach English may be found out??? No government likes to be deliberatly mislead. And admit it clearday --- The ONLY reason they start English schools is to mislead the authorities!!!

So does that mean you think it is a good idea or a bad idea to contact Vietnamese authorities?

[Deleted]

Nov 15, 2013 12:35:59 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Nov 15, 2013 12:02:39 GMT -5 edgarmassey said:

If they are following the laws of the country, and thus open about their intentions, why does Nathan have such a phobia of the implications of them being identified as they really are? Is the issue that the deception of their real intentions to preach an odd version of Christianity, when the given purpose has been given to teach English may be found out??? No government likes to be deliberatly mislead. And admit it clearday --- The ONLY reason they start English schools is to mislead the authorities!!!

So does that mean you think it is a good idea or a bad idea to contact Vietnamese authorities?

Clearday, If what Nathan implies is true, the Vietnameze government is likely well aware of the situation of 2x2 dishonesty -- As are we! All that the situation proves is the moral deficiencöy of 2x2 policy. However there is still (from the 2x2 persepective) apparently trememdous fear that the real truth will be revealed.

I doubt what we write on this board is going to be all that interesting to a system, that according to Nathan has 'spies' everywhere who inform them of all the ins and outs of 2x2ism. Maybe they should be contacting us, about what they know of 2x2 corruption that is still unknown to us.

[Mary]

If it is not true why do the workers teach English in these countries when they are workers? Why go to these countries if it is not to preach the Gospel and convert people? Seems weird that the workers could give up being workers just to teach English and then come back to their home country and continue being workers. Wonder if they have to state their profession on their application form for a visa?

[Mary]

So why are they workers in the USA and ESL teachers in some other countries? I thought the workers gave up careers and jobs when they went into the work. Why don't they work in their home countries? Are they ESOL teachers in their home countries? So they work just like other people. An ESOL degree? Are you sure it is not just a degree they have. A degree usually consists of a 3 year degree - and you say they have it in ESOL teaching? So some workers are studying for a degree while in the work as I am sure most of those workers who go to those countries did not have an ESOL degree before going into the work.

[BobWilliston]

Nov 15, 2013 17:01:34 GMT -5 Mary said:

If it is not true why do the workers teach English in these countries when they are workers? Why go to these countries if it is not to preach the Gospel and convert people? Seems weird that the workers could give up being workers just to teach English and then come back to their home country and continue being workers. Wonder if they have to state their profession on their application form for a visa?

They haven't given up their preaching. They learned how to get into countries from how spies get into countries. They never ever say, "I want to go to your country to be a spy." They get something else to do and darn sure keep at it while they're there -- they can spy in their spare time.

When Paul travelled around he had an occupation. He was a tentmaker -- and Priscilla and Aquila were tent makers with him on occasion.

[Mary]

Yep, Paul was a tent maker but the workers claim to not work when they apparently do. Maybe some will have secret marriages one day. ooops, some do have secret sex.

[BobWilliston]

Nov 15, 2013 17:56:16 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Nov 15, 2013 17:44:11 GMT -5 BobWilliston said:

They haven't given up their preaching. They learned how to get into countries from how spies get into countries. They never ever say, "I want to go to your country to be a spy." They get something else to do and darn sure keep at it while they're there -- they can spy in their spare time.

When Paul travelled around he had an occupation. He was a tentmaker -- and Priscilla and Aquila were tent makers with him on occasion.

The workers are SYING out the land! like the 12 spies in the Old Testament. The workers and the friends are smart, intelligent people they can adapt and fit in for whatever the occasions as the gospel preacher of Jesus. Luke was a Physician. All apostles had jobs, trades, homes before they went in the ministry.

But Paul earned his own living when he was preaching!!

[CherieKropp]

Click Here to read:  The Way of God Come to Vietnam

Click Here to view Vietnam Photos in the TTT PHoto Gallery

I will soon be adding additional information about the discord, discontent and division in Vietnam in the past 3 years.

Nate:  I'm checking with Mr. Bau and daughter about using their full names.

[Deleted]

Nov 15, 2013 19:17:48 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

Click Here to read:  The Way of God Come to Vietnam

Click Here to view Vietnam Photos in the TTT PHoto Gallery

I will soon be adding additional information about the discord, discontent and division in Vietnam in the past 3 years.

Nate:  I'm checking with Mr. Bau and daughter about using their full names.

Why focus on "the discord, discontent and division in Vietnam in the past 3 years"? There is a pretty interesting long term story of belief, faith and triumph too in Vietnam.

[Deleted]

I talked to Bau on the phone after he initially contacted me by email, quite early in our relationship (as a check to his authenticity), and established a mutual understanding on the importance of openness and clarity in the information that we shared. (A very important issue to me, where my position is either we deal openly and honestly with the issues involved --- or not at all! -- and I have received no complaints from him)

As I understand it, the reason that I was contacted by him, was three fold ---

1 My connection with the area and workers in Canada that were causing their problems --
2 My Internet presence
3 My first hand understanding of the ugly and subtile way that 2x2ism deals with dissent.

At the moment the only direct link I have to the Vietnam 'hostile takeover issue', except via my post on TMB, is via my personal writings at www.themasseys.net/Familypix/Writings.htm (bottom of the page) and I haven't put search motor tags on it (as yet!)

[CherieKropp]

CD asked: Why focus on "the discord, discontent and division in Vietnam in the past 3 years"? There is a pretty interesting long term story of belief, faith and triumph too in Vietnam.

Actually, the account starts with the workers coming to Vietnam...and goes through their 50+ year history.

[Deleted]

Nov 16, 2013 10:14:09 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

CD asked: Why focus on "the discord, discontent and division in Vietnam in the past 3 years"? There is a pretty interesting long term story of belief, faith and triumph too in Vietnam.

Actually, the account starts with the workers coming to Vietnam...and goes through their 50+ year history.

Sounds good!

[CherieKropp]

Nate, here's your answer straight from Mr. Bau's daughter:

"I thinhk it doesn’t matter if you use the true name… because we want to Tell The Truth.
Minh Thanh