Vietnam

[Deleted]

Jun 15, 2013 11:29:54 GMT -5 Westsask said:

It sure is encouraging to me, to see that this group of people, have the courage to stand up for their convictions.
The cost for doing this, seems to be high now, but as time goes on,seems less and less!
This has been my experience anyway...twas 11 years ago now.....how time flys!!

Wow, is it more than 11 years since we had coffee at Timmie's? Time for another one!

[sharingtheriches]

Jun 4, 2013 12:59:02 GMT -5 edgarmassey said:

Jun 4, 2013 10:44:50 GMT -5 snow said:

Edgar, reading some of the things that happened to you makes me wonder what lies got spread about me those many years ago. I know people were reluctant to have their kids around me sometimes, but I really wasn't a 'bad' kid. I just wasn't professing and had 'worldly' friends. I was a pretty normal teenager. I know they talked about me and shook their heads about how sad it all was. Now I wish I had been a fly on the wall!! lol

Looking back on it .. Most of the descriptive explanation of outsiders -- expecially outsiders that had a knowledge of 2x2ism .. where little white lies without the slightest affiliation with truth. "Living for the world", "gone wild", "unwilling", "rebelious", "taken up with the world" etc. etc. --- In 99% of the occasions these descriptions were used, it was taken completely out the blue with absolutely no knowledge at all of the thinking process of those that were on the outside. There was no known explanation, so workers feel they have to make one up, and share it as gossip with the friends. -- And then fantacy multiplys as it reproduces --- and no one can stand up and question the truth of it all.

For the kind of dishonesty flourishing in 2x2ism, it is easier to put confidence in a little unfounded rumor spoken with confidence, than to admit the truth is still unknown.

I think that we're going to hear and see a whole lot more of this massive slaughter regarding the exes....simply because most of the recent exes left due to the sins of the workers that have become so well known....and that makes the workership look quite tainted and hurts the reputation of those said workers....when if there was ONE honest or decent bone in their bodies, they'd be facing up to the fact that most of their woes are caused by themselves~ In fact, if honest was known within them, they'd willingly face up to that which they've done throughout the whole inception of the sect is what has turned on themselves...but it's easier to blame someone else,e sp. if they've never known what honesty is. Always slipping around to make the worst things covered up so that the veneer on the workership and/or the fellowship being just that a very thin coating of pretense over the deeper sadness within.

[quizzer]

Jun 15, 2013 9:15:43 GMT -5 @clearday said:

From the current letter, it is stated that these folks are aware of Edgar's online postings so it is easy to infer that they are expecting their communications with Edgar to be widely shared. The fact that the actual problems are not well articulated at this point is another good indicator to me that they are ok with their letters being shared. They are being cautious about sharing personal details of the troubles for fear of hurting people who trust them. They are temporarily withholding some information from Cherie until they are ready to disclose it. Obviously they are aware that it will become public when it is released.

Again, the way I read it, they still have a faint hope (10%) that this situation will get resolved, another reason for being slow to disclose the full story.

I would suggest that the likelihood of resolution is now near 0%. Edgar and Cherie are viewed by hardline 2x2's as being the ogres of the exes. Now that they are involved, the workers will almost certainly do nothing at all with this family, knowing that whatever they do will be both scrutinized and made public.....something they studiously avoid under any circumstances.

clearday, I think you're hitting the nail on the head. However, from my own (and my family's) experiences, staying quiet about a huge 2x2 issue also renders the likelihood of resolution to nearly 0%. To my way of thinking, and what I've seen, the only resolution that the 2x2s are capable of is having the friends submit to the workers (or to the hearty friends that are influencing the workers).

At least, by speaking up about these things, you realize that you're not the one going crazy. You're simply in a crazy situation that has the odds heavily stacked against you.

The only other thought that I can offer is that, by speaking out, you can lower the level of the 2x2 disfellowship that's happening. The hearty 2x2s will gang up on you in a heartbeat when they know you'll be quiet and might be submissive. Makes you more of a victim. Once these 2x2s know you'll stand up to them and speak out, they do back down a bit because they're worried about having their names (and the meetings) associated with their tactics. No true chance of resolution, of course, but the 2x2 disfellowship will be less than it could be.

[fixit]

I think you're right Quiz, its best that bullying is exposed.

[Deleted]

Jun 16, 2013 3:57:38 GMT -5 quizzer said:

Jun 15, 2013 9:15:43 GMT -5 @clearday said:

From the current letter, it is stated that these folks are aware of Edgar's online postings so it is easy to infer that they are expecting their communications with Edgar to be widely shared. The fact that the actual problems are not well articulated at this point is another good indicator to me that they are ok with their letters being shared. They are being cautious about sharing personal details of the troubles for fear of hurting people who trust them. They are temporarily withholding some information from Cherie until they are ready to disclose it. Obviously they are aware that it will become public when it is released.

Again, the way I read it, they still have a faint hope (10%) that this situation will get resolved, another reason for being slow to disclose the full story.

I would suggest that the likelihood of resolution is now near 0%. Edgar and Cherie are viewed by hardline 2x2's as being the ogres of the exes. Now that they are involved, the workers will almost certainly do nothing at all with this family, knowing that whatever they do will be both scrutinized and made public.....something they studiously avoid under any circumstances.

clearday, I think you're hitting the nail on the head. However, from my own (and my family's) experiences, staying quiet about a huge 2x2 issue also renders the likelihood of resolution to nearly 0%. To my way of thinking, and what I've seen, the only resolution that the 2x2s are capable of is having the friends submit to the workers (or to the hearty friends that are influencing the workers).

At least, by speaking up about these things, you realize that you're not the one going crazy. You're simply in a crazy situation that has the odds heavily stacked against you.

The only other thought that I can offer is that, by speaking out, you can lower the level of the 2x2 disfellowship that's happening. The hearty 2x2s will gang up on you in a heartbeat when they know you'll be quiet and might be submissive. Makes you more of a victim. Once these 2x2s know you'll stand up to them and speak out, they do back down a bit because they're worried about having their names (and the meetings) associated with their tactics. No true chance of resolution, of course, but the 2x2 disfellowship will be less than it could be.

True.

Another factor that reduces resolution to nearly zero is ministry pride. Ironically, one of the Canadian workers in Vietnam was once quoted as saying: "this ministry will never admit to an error". And he got that right. All parties are not allowed input into the worker judgments (always behind the scenes backroom maneuvering) and once those judgments are rendered there is no going back unless there is a huge uproar. Otherwise they will stubbornly refuse to having made an error in judgment. The system will remain dysfunctional and bullying like that as long as the ministry pride remains entrenched.

[Westsask]

Jun 15, 2013 16:01:36 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Jun 15, 2013 11:29:54 GMT -5 Westsask said:

It sure is encouraging to me, to see that this group of people, have the courage to stand up for their convictions.
The cost for doing this, seems to be high now, but as time goes on,seems less and less!
This has been my experience anyway...twas 11 years ago now.....how time flys!!

Wow, is it more than 11 years since we had coffee at Timmie's? Time for another one!

Clearday, yes it has been quite a while, the trouble is.....I don't get down your way very often!!!! I don't suppose you come through here very often either,but if you do..... we can have lunch and a chat!!1 Call it a 11 year reunion!!

[CherieKropp]

personaNG wrote:
"Hostile takeover" is a term that also came to my mind when I first read this thread.

Mine too!

There was a hostile takeover of a company where my husband worked--so I immediately picked up on the similarities to the actions of the Canadian workers who went into VN and began making changes.

[Deleted]

Jun 16, 2013 18:06:02 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Me too, at first glance I thought it was a hostile take over. Now, I know some of the story.... There was a big misunderstanding, and it got out of hands. Both sides need to sit down, and get thing straighten out OR it will be another Alberta Mess.

What is it that everyone is misunderstanding?

[fred]

Jun 16, 2013 18:54:49 GMT -5 NathanB said:

Jun 16, 2013 18:35:46 GMT -5 @clearday said:

What is it that everyone is misunderstanding?

The workers and the friends who were involved know the misunderstanding. I read three different emails explaining of the misunderstanding between them. Let them work it out among themselves.

If the 'misunderstandings' are known by the parties involved it seems it would be simple to correct them.

Why then the continuing angst? It seems more likely that there is no misunderstanding, just one party not agreeing to understand.

[Deleted]

Jun 16, 2013 22:10:24 GMT -5 fred said:

Jun 16, 2013 18:54:49 GMT -5 NathanB said:

The workers and the friends who were involved know the misunderstanding. I read three different emails explaining of the misunderstanding between them. Let them work it out among themselves.

If the 'misunderstandings' are known by the parties involved it seems it would be simple to correct them.

Why then the continuing angst? It seems more likely that there is no misunderstanding, just one party not agreeing to understand.

Exactly Fred. To classify it as a "misunderstanding" is an attempt to downplay the seriousness of it and a slap in the face of those who are suffering from it. A misunderstanding, as you suggest, is simple and can be corrected quickly.

The truth is in the process of emerging that it isn't a misunderstanding at all, but specific troubles caused by some of the Canadian workers.

Of course the typical solution will likely be applied: get the troublemaker workers (who were just doing as they were told) out of there, replace them with a new batch of workers (under the guise that they are different than the last batch), and pretend it is all a big misunderstanding. "Nothing to see here folks, move along now, just a little misunderstanding."

When you have a group of friends who are meeting in an unsanctioned meeting (like the excommunicated people in Alberta), you have much more than a misunderstanding. You have a serious problem.

[Deleted]

I agree 100%, this is no misunderstanding in the ordinary sense. However the 2x2 mindset and doctrine is built on the premise that centrally appointed 2x2 leadership is almighty, and infallible in that they represent God himself. So in this case, 2x2 leadership feels that these native Vietnamese people have failed to understand/miss understood that 'centrally appointed senior workers' have been given the divine right to unanimously determine the 'rights and wrongs' in all issues regarding the fellowship -- regardless the Christian moral values this may entail trashing.

As we also found out 12 years ago, in the eyes of 2x2ism this 'misunderstanding' is grounds for dismissal and carries the life-time punishment of slander and ill-willed gossip with the group. This hard-necked, unbendable principle in 2x2ism also means, as has been suggested, that it would seem to be 0 % chance of any form of reconciliation on this issue in Vietnam. This self-righteous and egocentric doctrine is far too fundamental for 2x2ism.

To me, the only issue for us, is to lend understanding and encouragement (perhaps inspiration) -- just to help to ease the pain that is plaguing these people. --- (and perhaps do what we can to strengthen faith to step into the dividing waters of the Red sea ahead of them, and to trust that they will find guidance into something far, far better)

Even at best, 2x2ism is an amazingly sick religion. Typical for group membership is that the story will likely raise eyebrows arround the world for a little moment .. but in the end no one within the group will be willing to lift a pin to help them -- "quickly tip-toe by on the other side of the road" is the typical 2x2 solution, for everything negative.


A summary NEW info

[fixit]

I wonder what Minh Thanh, the third daughter of Mr. Nguyn Hu Báu meant when she wrote:

You can open a page for Vietnam, but please don't post any pictures or anything regarding to our family.

[Greg]

Jun 18, 2013 18:12:28 GMT -5 fixit said:

I wonder what Minh Thanh, the third daughter of Mr. Nguyn Hu Báu meant when she wrote:

You can open a page for Vietnam, but please don't post any pictures or anything regarding to our family.

Yeah, probably just what she wrote.

[CherieKropp]

Jun 18, 2013 18:12:28 GMT -5 fixit said:

I wonder what Minh Thanh, the third daughter of Mr. Nguyn Hu Báu meant when she wrote:

You can open a page for Vietnam, but please don't post any pictures or anything regarding to our family.

She was answering me about this page that I opened for First Missions in Viet Nam, which is empty and pending information they have collected that I requested, but which they are not ready to have posted yet:  www.tellingthetruth.info/history_pioneering/vietnam.php

[someguy]

May 24, 2013 14:31:11 GMT -5 @clearday said:

May 24, 2013 14:27:08 GMT -5 @sharyl said:

I've seen pictures of some professing people from Vietnam, and girls/younger women were wearing traditional pants, yes, riding motorcycles. I wondered too if workers tried to stop wearing of traditional pants? How sad...

I'm not certain of what this group of workers have tried to impose on professing women, but in Hanoi motorbikes are extremely common transportation. Pants are by far the most practical and modest way to use that form of transportation. Let's hope they weren't trying to enforce dresses, even long ones, on the professing women.

I know for a fact from someone who spent many months with the friends in Vietnam that, that is exactly what the workers did. They tried to enforces dresses even on motorcycles and talked to two sister workers from Vietnam who would wear pants while riding motorcycles. They "encouraged them" to wear a dress for the "kingdoms sake".

[fixit]

Jun 18, 2013 22:00:03 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

Jun 18, 2013 18:12:28 GMT -5 fixit said:

I wonder what Minh Thanh, the third daughter of Mr. Nguyn Hu Báu meant when she wrote:

You can open a page for Vietnam, but please don't post any pictures or anything regarding to our family.

She was answering me about this page that I opened for First Missions in Viet Nam, which is empty and pending information they have collected that I requested, but which they are not ready to have posted yet:  www.tellingthetruth.info/history_pioneering/vietnam.php

So she doesn't want the photo on your website, Cherie.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Its interesting that she doesn't mind the photo being published on Edgar's website or on TMB.

[Greg]

Jun 18, 2013 22:52:17 GMT -5 fixit said:

Jun 18, 2013 22:00:03 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

She was answering me about this page that I opened for First Missions in Viet Nam, which is empty and pending information they have collected that I requested, but which they are not ready to have posted yet:  www.tellingthetruth.info/history_pioneering/vietnam.php

So she doesn't want the photo on your website, Cherie.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Its interesting that she doesn't mind the photo being published on Edgar's website or on TMB.

Does she know?

[fixit]

It seems that Edgar has permission to post the letters and photo:

May 25, 2013 0:30:15 GMT -5 edgarmassey said:

Regarding the authors of the letter I received, I have understood that it is their hope that this information would be spread (without censure)-- and I have no intention of attempting to hinder them in this. It has been their choice to go out and present this information, not mine.

[Greg]

Jun 18, 2013 23:01:06 GMT -5 fixit said:

It seems that Edgar has permission to post the letters and photo:

May 25, 2013 0:30:15 GMT -5 edgarmassey said:

Regarding the authors of the letter I received, I have understood that it is their hope that this information would be spread (without censure)-- and I have no intention of attempting to hinder them in this. It has been their choice to go out and present this information, not mine.

"Seems" being the operable word.

[Deleted]

Jun 18, 2013 22:52:17 GMT -5 fixit said:

Jun 18, 2013 22:00:03 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

She was answering me about this page that I opened for First Missions in Viet Nam, which is empty and pending information they have collected that I requested, but which they are not ready to have posted yet:  www.tellingthetruth.info/history_pioneering/vietnam.php

So she doesn't want the photo on your website, Cherie.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Its interesting that she doesn't mind the photo being published on Edgar's website or on TMB.

There is a significant difference in the dignity of Cheries website, with it's well researched and objective presentation of well proven facts and history of 2x2ism -- and my poorly indexed collection of personal correspondence and personal reflections and feelings on the subject, where in contrast to the TTT, I make absolutely no claim or attempt to objectivity.

I have strong moral concerns, and deep personal feelings on the issues I attempt to document and share on the Internet. I think that this is quite obvious to most of the folks that find their way to my writings.

Regarding the Vietnam Christian ethical tragedy at the moment -- Time will doubtlessly objectively prove the validity of the concerns described,(as it has done in the Alberta mass-excommunications, and many other 2x2 moral meltdowns), but in the meantime there are people going through major pain and trauma in their lives. Having experienced it myself, I feel that they deserve all the understanding and all the moral support we can give them.

Edgar Massey

When we were going through a similar 'hell' in our experience with 2x2ism in 2001, Bob Williston kindly (but unasked for) documented a major portion of the correspondence we had with 2x2 leadership and others at the time. Today I am extremely thankful for this, as this has given a structure to these concerns, that otherwise would have maybe only reflected the mental chaos that we felt in our minds at the time.

[rational]

May 24, 2013 19:12:32 GMT -5 sharingtheriches said:

I would wonder how much adversity the Canadian workers give the VN professing folks about wearing something that is not of their culture....I know for the islands and countries where it is tropical, the workers have been forced to accept that the native women in those countries wear their hair very short,, otherwise it would be unbearable!

Do you have some examples of where women have short hair because of the heat? I do not recall this in any of the places I have visited.

I suspect the workers in VN are objecting to women wearing slacks esp. with a tunic split up to their waste...too detracting for men to want to see just what that split might reveal!

The split reveals the pants. Is the possibility of a glimpse of pants really that distracting?

[Deleted]

If there is a problem with unsuitable thoughts -- the problem must be in the mind of the 'thinker' rather than the object they think about. Makes a person wonder what kind of foul mind workers really have - if they can't look at a pair of legs without being aroused!!!! Somewhat the same reasoning in some sick cultures that women should be punished for being raped!!

[Persona non grata]

Jun 19, 2013 5:50:46 GMT -5 rational said:

May 24, 2013 19:12:32 GMT -5 sharingtheriches said:

I would wonder how much adversity the Canadian workers give the VN professing folks about wearing something that is not of their culture....I know for the islands and countries where it is tropical, the workers have been forced to accept that the native women in those countries wear their hair very short,, otherwise it would be unbearable!

Do you have some examples of where women have short hair because of the heat? I do not recall this in any of the places I have visited.

I suspect the workers in VN are objecting to women wearing slacks esp. with a tunic split up to their waste...too detracting for men to want to see just what that split might reveal!

The split reveals the pants. Is the possibility of a glimpse of pants really that distracting?

While not specifically due to the heat, in Sri Lanka many of our friends' young girls have very short (shorn) hair. This is done to promote thicker, fuller hair later on.

[rational]

Jun 19, 2013 6:02:37 GMT -5 Persona non grata said:

Jun 19, 2013 5:50:46 GMT -5 rational said:

Do you have some examples of where women have short hair because of the heat? I do not recall this in any of the places I have visited. The split reveals the pants. Is the possibility of a glimpse of pants really that distracting?

While not specifically due to the heat, in Sri Lanka many of our friends' young girls have very short (shorn) hair. This is done to promote thicker, fuller hair later on.

I believe the question was if you had any examples of women (not young girls) who wore their hair short because of the heat, not so it would grow in even thicker, which would seem to contradict your original premise that the heat caused people to cut their hair short. I have not been to Sri Lanka but a quick search of traditional Sri Lanka dress shows women with moderate to long hair.

[CherieKropp]

PNG wrote:  While not specifically due to the heat, in Sri Lanka many of our friends' young girls have very short (shorn) hair. This is done to promote thicker, fuller hair later on.

About 30 years ago I was visiting Shilani Goonetillekie (deceased) who was from Sri Lanka.  All her family had emigrated to the Los Angeles area, as did some other Sri Lanka friends.  When she showed me her photo album, I noticed all the female children of the friends and her family had short hair.  

I commented on it and was told it was due to the lice.  That if the parents didnt cut their hair short to help control lice, that the school would cut it.  Shilani told me the girls grew their hair longer when they were old enough to take care of it themselves.

Shilani drove me around LA to some sites and took me to her family's home where we had snacks after gospel meeting.  I asked about the sari and nothing doing - but they swooped me into a bedroom and dressed me in one!  Not to be outdone, the males made a turban for my brother, who was a bit disgruntled about it!  Both are native clothing in Sri Lanka.  Shilani wore what she called "western clothes" as she worked in the public.  I was used to that term being applied to the western style of Texas western (cowboy) shirts!  Her mother still wore the saris.   They insisted I take the sari material and blouse with me!   I wish I remembered how they make them - the sari is all held together by a single safety pin!  No sewing is done.  (the blouse is separate.)  Amazing!  Fond memories. Somewhere I have a photo of my brother and me dressed us in their native clothes. 

A couple years ago I was quite surprised to run into Shilani's husband at the gathering after my father in law's funeral in California.

[Deleted]

Many of the Sri Lankans in this area wear their saris to meeting...it's a colorful, cool look on a hot day.

[Persona non grata]

Jun 19, 2013 9:00:22 GMT -5 rational said:

Jun 19, 2013 6:02:37 GMT -5 Persona non grata said:

While not specifically due to the heat, in Sri Lanka many of our friends' young girls have very short (shorn) hair. This is done to promote thicker, fuller hair later on.

I believe the question was if you had any examples of women (not young girls) who wore their hair short because of the heat, not so it would grow in even thicker, which would seem to contradict your original premise that the heat caused people to cut their hair short. I have not been to Sri Lanka but a quick search of traditional Sri Lanka dress shows women with moderate to long hair.

You're right Rational, I gave an irrelevant answer to a question that wasn't directed at me. Please consider it rather to be a wayward comment made in the course of group discussion.

[Persona non grata]

Jun 19, 2013 9:14:49 GMT -5 CherieKropp said:

PNG wrote:  While not specifically due to the heat, in Sri Lanka many of our friends' young girls have very short (shorn) hair. This is done to promote thicker, fuller hair later on.

About 30 years ago I was visiting Shilani Goonetillekie (deceased) who was from Sri Lanka.  All her family had emigrated to the Los Angeles area, as did some other Sri Lanka friends.  When she showed me her photo album, I noticed all the female children of the friends and her family had short hair.  

I commented on it and was told it was due to the lice.  That if the parents didnt cut their hair short to help control lice, that the school would cut it.  Shilani told me the girls grew their hair longer when they were old enough to take care of it themselves.

Shilani drove me around LA to some sites and took me to her family's home where we had snacks after gospel meeting.  I asked about the sari and nothing doing - but they slooped me into a bedroom and dressed me in one!  Not to be outdone, the males made a turban out for my brother, who was a bit disgruntled about it!  Both are native clothing in Sri Lanka.  Shilani wore what she called "western clothes" as she worked in the public.  I was used to that term being applied to the western style of cowboy shirts. Her mother still wore the saris.   They insisted I take the sari material and blouse with me!   I wish I remembered how they make them - the sari is all held together by a single safety pin!  No sewing is done.  (the blouse is separate.)  Amazing!  Fond memories. Somewhere I have a photo of my brother and I as they dressed us in these clothes.

A couple years ago I was quite surprised to meet Shilani's husband at the gathering after my father in law's funeral in California.

I should have said "I was told that this is done..." The worker who told me that seemed compelled to offer an explanation without me even inquiring about the issue.

Cherie, your answer about it being due to lice sounds like a more reasonable explanation.