Vietnam

[stargazer]

Jun 2, 2013 10:52:38 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Jun 2, 2013 10:30:53 GMT -5 stargazer said:

Just curious, CD, but are monies you provide the workers subject to conditions? This would pertain to money above and beyond the value of the lodging or transportation you might provide.

Yes definitely. The conditions implied are that they would use the cash for reasonable personal expenses in the course of their duties. Of course few workers give any assurance or accounting that this is being done since everything is implied, but if I saw evidence otherwise I would take action, starting with a chat.

However, I don't expect to control their activities within the broad conditions, which are very broad. For instance, if the workers spent a day on the ski hill on my money, I would have no problem with that. If they spent a day in the casino at the blackjack table, I wouldn't let that go with a shrug.

The point of my previous post is that workers in Western countries do not account for the money they receive and avoid anyone controlling their activities on the basis of being given money. Yet the same workers require the workers in Vietnam to obey their rule ostensibly on the basis of money supplied to them, and presumably the superiority of the Western Way. There is something not right about that. Any thoughts on that?

I notice your use of the word "implied" which I suppose is not an unreasonable response.

As regards the financing of activities in Vietnam....... do I have thoughts? Our money (yours, mine, etc.) given with implied conditions at the level its given (to worker x) goes into a pot (not unlike any other common fund) and the only control is whether to give or not to give. Once it's given, there is implicit trust that it will be used appropriately. So if Our (now Worker X's) money gets mixed and combined and moves to Vietnam or elsewhere, we're a tier or so removed from that process and we implicitly surrender that right when we give to worker x because our only condition is implied that it's use be reasonable. I'd submit worker x surrendering part of my money to a common use by someone else is not unreasonable. (Somewhere in either Nehemiah or Ezra certain princes funded activities then - I don't recall reading of any explicit conditions).

I don't know if the "same workers require the workers in Vietnam to obey their rule ostensibly on the basis of money supplied to them" although I suppose there'd be some power in that. However, I think there could be a very real and, in my opinion, naïve and arrogant attitude of "the superiority of the Western Way". That is not unlike the somewhat foreign Irish influence you and I have experienced. So for the friends in Vietnam, it's likely the resentment of the foreign would be more intense. If the problems are caused by financial power and resultant resentment of that, I see a problem. If the problems relate to interaction of differing cultures and values, we shouldn't be particularly surprised. Aren't we merely exporting our imported Irish values? If the matters are of substance I'm not informed enough to offer an opinion. I've read of Edgar's issues for some time now. That's another situation I'm hesitant to offer any dogmatic opinion. It would be easy to paint the Vietnam situation with the Canadian/Swedish/European model he's outlined. I don't know if it's quite that simple, but the people did reach out to him, so I hope his mentoring is considered.

All of this stuff gets very messy. So....since you asked for my thoughts, confused as they are, please read them in that light.

[What Hat]

Jun 2, 2013 11:28:06 GMT -5 @clearday said:

I notice there is still a great deal of skepticism about religious freedom in Vietnam. The level of fear mongering I hear from insiders is quite high, and hardly justified. Vietnam has constitutionally guaranteed freedom of religion. Vietnam is not on the list of Countries of Particular Concern for religious freedom.

Almost all of the conflict that gets wrongly attributed to religious repression in Vietnam is conflict over other issues. For example, religious leaders who participate in anti-government democracy activities (bravely) are subject to arrest but not for their religion, it's for their politics.

Here is an excerpt on the subject from a 2010 issue of The Economist, one of the world's most respected news reporting companies:

"Vietnam's 6m Catholics largely worship freely, and while the Vietnamese government has gotten into a number of tussles with Catholics over the past few years, they have almost all been about where the church owns land and where believers are allowed to organise services, not whether Catholics have the right to practise their religion."

In 2010, some Catholics were arrested for trying to conduct a funeral on cemetery land which the government was in the process of relocating. Some arrests occurred, but it had nothing to do with religious freedom, per se, it was a land dispute. In North America, it would be akin to building a house on land which was expropriated by the government for a new road. Yet this gets trumped up as a religious freedom issue because the participants know it will play much better with the public.

When you read the letters to Edgar from a local Vietnamese friend, you can see that 100% of the writers' concern is wrongful acts by the foreign workers. There is no concern expressed over the fear of the government or any request for high secrecy in case Communist spies take him down for his religious beliefs. Yet the foreign workers are still playing a cloak and dagger game, much to the delight of many Westerners who think it their workers over there are being very brave by being there.

Most Christian groups, including the 6 million Catholics there, are worshiping openly and freely. The only ones who have something to fear are the ones who are not worshiping openly with government-required registration or have a foreign ministry in the country under false pretenses.

Not much good can come of such a scenario, and that seems to be what is playing out.

Still government registration of your religious conviction is a red flag. It would not pass muster here in Canada or in the USA. It's generally the first step in any government pogrom, and the ultimate intention is masked, as happened with the Jews in Germany and later, other countries of the Nazi occupation. I'm not saying there is anything to fear in Vietnam, because I don't know, but I wouldn't sign anything like that.

[Deleted]

Jun 2, 2013 13:40:03 GMT -5 What Hat said:

Jun 2, 2013 11:28:06 GMT -5 @clearday said:

I notice there is still a great deal of skepticism about religious freedom in Vietnam. The level of fear mongering I hear from insiders is quite high, and hardly justified. Vietnam has constitutionally guaranteed freedom of religion. Vietnam is not on the list of Countries of Particular Concern for religious freedom.

Almost all of the conflict that gets wrongly attributed to religious repression in Vietnam is conflict over other issues. For example, religious leaders who participate in anti-government democracy activities (bravely) are subject to arrest but not for their religion, it's for their politics.

Here is an excerpt on the subject from a 2010 issue of The Economist, one of the world's most respected news reporting companies:

In 2010, some Catholics were arrested for trying to conduct a funeral on cemetery land which the government was in the process of relocating. Some arrests occurred, but it had nothing to do with religious freedom, per se, it was a land dispute. In North America, it would be akin to building a house on land which was expropriated by the government for a new road. Yet this gets trumped up as a religious freedom issue because the participants know it will play much better with the public.

When you read the letters to Edgar from a local Vietnamese friend, you can see that 100% of the writers' concern is wrongful acts by the foreign workers. There is no concern expressed over the fear of the government or any request for high secrecy in case Communist spies take him down for his religious beliefs. Yet the foreign workers are still playing a cloak and dagger game, much to the delight of many Westerners who think it their workers over there are being very brave by being there.

Most Christian groups, including the 6 million Catholics there, are worshiping openly and freely. The only ones who have something to fear are the ones who are not worshiping openly with government-required registration or have a foreign ministry in the country under false pretenses.

Not much good can come of such a scenario, and that seems to be what is playing out.

Still government registration of your religious conviction is a red flag. It would not pass muster here in Canada or in the USA. It's generally the first step in any government pogrom, and the ultimate intention is masked, as happened with the Jews in Germany and later, other countries of the Nazi occupation. I'm not saying there is anything to fear in Vietnam, because I don't know, but I wouldn't sign anything like that.

Government registration is required here for many activities, including the acts of birth and marriage but I don't smell pogrom there. Western registration for religion is just sneakier: if you want tax benefits, you must register. That way they bring almost all of them in their net.

The Vietnam registry for religions is not to control religion, it is to control politics in a one party state. They know full well that when people congregate, political activism ensues. If your group is not politically active, registration is not an issue. If I had reason to believe otherwise, then civil disobedience would make sense. However, experience indicates that the government there is religion-neutral but politically-averse. The country is advancing quickly with the adoption of capitalism, and the government isn't going to mess up their exports by introducing pogroms. I think you need to consider that Fiddler on the Roof is a different era entirely than today.

[Deleted]

Jun 2, 2013 13:40:03 GMT -5 What Hat said:

Still government registration of your religious conviction is a red flag. It would not pass muster here in Canada or in the USA. It's generally the first step in any government pogrom, and the ultimate intention is masked, as happened with the Jews in Germany and later, other countries of the Nazi occupation. I'm not saying there is anything to fear in Vietnam, because I don't know, but I wouldn't sign anything like that.

Government registration is required here for many activities, including the acts of birth and marriage but I don't smell pogrom there. Western registration for religion is just sneakier: if you want tax benefits, you must register. That way they bring almost all of them in their net.

The Vietnam registry for religions is not to control religion, it is to control politics in a one party state. They know full well that when people congregate, political activism ensues. If your group is not politically active, registration is not an issue. If I had reason to believe otherwise, then civil disobedience would make sense. However, experience indicates that the government there is religion-neutral but politically-averse. The country is advancing quickly with the adoption of capitalism, and the government isn't going to mess up their exports by introducing pogroms. I think you need to consider that Fiddler on the Roof is a different era entirely than today. Vietnam has had their doi moi, and I doubt they will be going back anytime soon.

[Persona non grata]

Jun 2, 2013 4:21:04 GMT -5 edgarmassey said:

Here is the reply I have written to Baus most recent letter.


Thank you very much for your letter again -- I can understand so very well how you folks are feeling ... I wish that there was something that could be done to help correct the situation for you all -- but unfortunately I have lost all faith in any capacity within that fellowship to stand for truth and moral Christian value in situations like this.

As I am sure it is for you, one of the more painful aspects that we have had to learn to live with after our rejection, is the knowledge that workers will invent bad stories about rejected folks and then spread them amongst those in fellowship if the form of ill-willed gossip. This ugly trait amongst senior workers leaves no possibility for the truth to be explained correctly -- and we have to learn to live with this. However this is something that Jesus did mention that was part of our service to him in Matt 5 "Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake." And "Blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." This has been a wonderful comfort to us.

I have heard from a woman in the US (that I have been acquainted with a number of years) that is interested in your situation and would like to communicate with you via email so I have shared your email address with her. I expect she will be writing to you within a few days". Her name is Cherie Kopp and she has done an extensive work to document and reveal some of the hidden aspects of the fellowship and workers activities throughout the years.

Otherwise Bau I would just like to thank you again for sharing your feelings with me, and for the encouragement it is to me to hear of folks that stand true to their Christian convictions in spite of the enormous cost that we understand you are willing to pay. I also feel for all the others there that have been betrayed in this situation -- and I find comfort in the understanding that you will, and are doing everything you can to help them all in their frustration and confusion. I can understand that your long and faithful history within the fellowship will be something that will enable you to keep their trust .. and that in this, share with them the genuine Christian spirit that will guide them all aright.



Thank you again for your letter, and I will look forward to hearing from you again -- this means a lot to me.



Sincerely

Edgar Massey

Thanks Edgar,

I commend you sharing your correspondence. No one can accuse you of operating covertly.

[Persona non grata]

Jun 2, 2013 10:20:04 GMT -5 edgarmassey said:

OK -- I will admit that in the business world, the principle that "The folks that pay for a service should also be the ones that decide what that service is." is legal and acceptable. Fair enough if the service is not forced upon the ´consumer' , as it would seem Mr Bau has felt it was in his country. Even if this principle is legal in the commercial world, it seems to be far from the story of the gospel -- According to Mr Bau (and my own understanding) this is not the gospel that they have given their lives for -- so I can understand their frustration -- I have felt the same frustration.

"Hostile takeover" is a term used in the business world, when new capital can come in and claim ownership and the right to change the principles of an organization. Obviously what has happened in Vietnam -- Legal in the business world (except for the obvious deception used in getting workers into the country), but far from Christianity.

At this stage, the complete lack of moral principle, and application of ecconomic might within 2x2ism doesn't surprize me any more.

"Hostile takeover" is a term that also came to my mind when I first read this thread.

[Persona non grata]

Jun 1, 2013 14:18:43 GMT -5 dmmichgood said:

Jun 1, 2013 10:33:42 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Thanks for that Edgar. There are intimations that there are many more issues involved here than solely the worker territorial issue.

The suggestion that 100 friends are supporting the partially-banned local worker should be a wake-up call for the foreign interlopers. That is a huge proportion of the total number of friends there.....much more proportionately than Alberta.

Hopefully, he will share some insight into the bigger picture. In the meantime, he is reaching out for help and direction....and you have certainly been where he is now.

I wonder, Does anyone think that this case in Vietnam is due to the feeling of a lot of western countries that they are superior to Asian countries?

Imperialism dies hard.

[What Hat]

Jun 2, 2013 14:04:46 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Jun 2, 2013 13:40:03 GMT -5 What Hat said:

Still government registration of your religious conviction is a red flag. It would not pass muster here in Canada or in the USA. It's generally the first step in any government pogrom, and the ultimate intention is masked, as happened with the Jews in Germany and later, other countries of the Nazi occupation. I'm not saying there is anything to fear in Vietnam, because I don't know, but I wouldn't sign anything like that.

Government registration is required here for many activities, including the acts of birth and marriage but I don't smell pogrom there. Western registration for religion is just sneakier: if you want tax benefits, you must register. That way they bring almost all of them in their net.

The Vietnam registry for religions is not to control religion, it is to control politics in a one party state. They know full well that when people congregate, political activism ensues. If your group is not politically active, registration is not an issue. If I had reason to believe otherwise, then civil disobedience would make sense. However, experience indicates that the government there is religion-neutral but politically-averse. The country is advancing quickly with the adoption of capitalism, and the government isn't going to mess up their exports by introducing pogroms. I think you need to consider that Fiddler on the Roof is a different era entirely than today.

My parents lived in Nazi occupied Holland so I am very sensitive to this issue from personal experience. Not that I lived through that myself but hearing about those experiences has been a major feature of my life. No government agency will register your religious affiliation in Canada or the US, and it's a direct result of what happened to the Jewish people. I can definitely see that European people of our generation or the previous one would be adverse to such a requirement.

[Deleted]

Jun 2, 2013 19:27:27 GMT -5 What Hat said:

Jun 2, 2013 14:04:46 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Government registration is required here for many activities, including the acts of birth and marriage but I don't smell pogrom there. Western registration for religion is just sneakier: if you want tax benefits, you must register. That way they bring almost all of them in their net.

The Vietnam registry for religions is not to control religion, it is to control politics in a one party state. They know full well that when people congregate, political activism ensues. If your group is not politically active, registration is not an issue. If I had reason to believe otherwise, then civil disobedience would make sense. However, experience indicates that the government there is religion-neutral but politically-averse. The country is advancing quickly with the adoption of capitalism, and the government isn't going to mess up their exports by introducing pogroms. I think you need to consider that Fiddler on the Roof is a different era entirely than today.

My parents lived in Nazi occupied Holland so I am very sensitive to this issue from personal experience. Not that I lived through that myself but hearing about those experiences has been a major feature of my life. No government agency will register your religious affiliation in Canada or the US, and it's a direct result of what happened to the Jewish people. I can definitely see that European people of our generation or the previous one would be adverse to such a requirement.

It is organizations which are required to be registered, not individual affiliation. The only names required are the leadership names, which would be Canadian presumably, and that's where the problem lies.

The decree that requires registration of groups also specifically states: "Acts to force citizens to follow a religion or renounce their faith...are not allowed." Of course it is up to individuals to believe that the law is not a real law, and just a trick to round up religious people in Vietnam.....over 50 million of them.

The risk is not in the current laws or practices of the government, but in the possibility that they could rescind the laws......which could happen anywhere.

[What Hat]

Jun 2, 2013 19:49:48 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Jun 2, 2013 19:27:27 GMT -5 What Hat said:

My parents lived in Nazi occupied Holland so I am very sensitive to this issue from personal experience. Not that I lived through that myself but hearing about those experiences has been a major feature of my life. No government agency will register your religious affiliation in Canada or the US, and it's a direct result of what happened to the Jewish people. I can definitely see that European people of our generation or the previous one would be adverse to such a requirement.

It is organizations which are required to be registered, not individual affiliation.

In that case ..

[Deleted]

Jun 2, 2013 4:09:39 GMT -5 aus1 said:

There seems to be a push from the Western Canada workers in the Far east. Not much has been said, but a couple of years ago, the Australian overseer who was in Taiwan was moved back to Australia at short notice and a Canadian put in charge.

There were serious problems in Taiwan in which the Aussie overseer, a nice fellow, would not take action. Hence the change. At least that's the official story floating around. The Canadian in charge is a pretty decent fellow and at this point, doesn't seem overly tainted with the politics....yet. They gave him a Canadian worker underling who is inclined to leave a trail of trouble behind him, so he has his hands full!

[Deleted]

"Unregistered religious groups could be vulnerable to coercive and punitive action by national and local authorities. In some parts of the country, local authorities tacitly approved of the activities of unregistered groups and did not interfere with them. In other areas local officials restricted the same activities. Some unregistered groups were moving towards national registration and recognition, but others chose not to seek registration."

[foundfreedom]

It's been awhile since I posted on TMB.. I read and monitor topics a bit but this thread got me. The deception of the workers in gaining access to a closed country (at the time) made me question their validity as being Messengers of God. I clearly recall being in an elders home when DT gleefully was describing how he was going over to Vietnam as a professor and authority of Aurora Borealis. Now really...I thought how foolish... God's work and Word was more important than wasting time as a worker in teaching about dancing lights. My respect for him greatly diminished as he was going in to Vietnam in an untruthful way to be a worker over there. Now with my eyes opened to the workings of "the truth"... I pity those that still believe the deception and pray for those in Vietnam that have vision to see through the deception, that they would be kept in God's hand whether they stay in meetings or leave.

[Happy Feet]

They often go into these country claiming to be English teachers.

[Deleted]

Jun 3, 2013 23:51:25 GMT -5 foundfreedom said:

It's been awhile since I posted on TMB.. I read and monitor topics a bit but this thread got me. The deception of the workers in gaining access to a closed country (at the time) made me question their validity as being Messengers of God. I clearly recall being in an elders home when DT gleefully was describing how he was going over to Vietnam as a professor and authority of Aurora Borealis. Now really...I thought how foolish... God's work and Word was more important than wasting time as a worker in teaching about dancing lights. My respect for him greatly diminished as he was going in to Vietnam in an untruthful way to be a worker over there. Now with my eyes opened to the workings of "the truth"... I pity those that still believe the deception and pray for those in Vietnam that have vision to see through the deception, that they would be kept in God's hand whether they stay in meetings or leave.

To me this obvious top-level approved, 2x2 policy to use pre-planed, open and braged-about deception to achieve their ends is a clear marker of moral bankrupcy, and disrespect for basic Christian moral value. When it becomes group acceptable to abandon honesty in this situation, how can the group ever be trusted to stand for what is true and right.

This of course does explain the falsehood involved in group explanation of discarded friends and workers in excommunication senarios. The following is a letter I recieved a couple of days ago from Saskatchewan regarding a discussion between some of the friends, and a non-proffessing man that asked questions about some allegations of 2x2ism he had found on the net.


Edgar

I have never met the author of this letter -- but knew his parents .. and am very slightly acquainted with the folks that have made the allegations about me. --- Where did they get this story from? In any case my oldest daughter was born in 1983 -- I was married to her mother in May 1981 -- a very long pregnancy!!! I wasn't rejected from the group until 20 years later. All the folks referred to in this letter would be in their late 60s -- or early 70s.

(Recieved 2013-06-01)

Dear Edgar
My parents, Reg & Nina, started in the 'Truth' in the '30s around
Kelvington SK & were friends with the McChesneys. Born in 1938 in
Lintlaw, I grew up 'indoctrinated' in this faith. As a nonbeliever,
I've been interested in the roots of this cult/religion...& during my
search I've read, followed the links, & really enjoyed reading your
stories & information. Recently, with some trepidation, I forwarded
your main page (with all the links) on to Dave McChesney & Bill
Halbert & suggested that they read some of the information on your
website.

Last week we visited Dave & Lois in Regina. I was haughtily informed
that prior information Dave had recieved supporting you was all
garbage...& that you were dismissed or had left the work because you
had fathered a child while you were a worker.

Not knowing how to respond to this allegation, I left it at that. I'm
passing the story on to you so that you know what is being alleged
within the 'friends'. Dave went on to say that Willie McIllwrath was
dismissed from the 'Work' because he had a secret bank account (like
Willis Propp)?

Sincerely,
Ralf Pilkington

[Deleted]

Jun 4, 2013 1:03:16 GMT -5 edgarmassey said:

Jun 3, 2013 23:51:25 GMT -5 foundfreedom said:

It's been awhile since I posted on TMB.. I read and monitor topics a bit but this thread got me. The deception of the workers in gaining access to a closed country (at the time) made me question their validity as being Messengers of God. I clearly recall being in an elders home when DT gleefully was describing how he was going over to Vietnam as a professor and authority of Aurora Borealis. Now really...I thought how foolish... God's work and Word was more important than wasting time as a worker in teaching about dancing lights. My respect for him greatly diminished as he was going in to Vietnam in an untruthful way to be a worker over there. Now with my eyes opened to the workings of "the truth"... I pity those that still believe the deception and pray for those in Vietnam that have vision to see through the deception, that they would be kept in God's hand whether they stay in meetings or leave.

To me this obvious top-level approved, 2x2 policy to use pre-planed, open and braged-about deception to achieve their ends is a clear marker of moral bankrupcy, and disrespect for basic Christian moral value. When it becomes group acceptable to abandon honesty in this situation, how can the group ever be trusted to stand for what is true and right.

This of course does explain the falsehood involved in group explanation of discarded friends and workers in excommunication senarios. The following is a letter I recieved a couple of days ago from Saskatchewan regarding a discussion between some of the friends, and a non-proffessing man that asked questions about some allegations of 2x2ism he had found on the net.


Edgar

I have never met the author of this letter -- but knew his parents .. and am very slightly acquainted with the folks that have made the allegations about me. --- Where did they get this story from? In any case my oldest daughter was born in 1983 -- I was married to her mother in May 1981 -- a very long pregnancy!!! I wasn't rejected from the group until 20 years later. All the folks referred to in this letter would be in their late 60s -- or early 70s.

(Recieved 2013-06-01)

Dear Edgar
My parents, Reg & Nina, started in the 'Truth' in the '30s around
Kelvington SK & were friends with the McChesneys. Born in 1938 in
Lintlaw, I grew up 'indoctrinated' in this faith. As a nonbeliever,
I've been interested in the roots of this cult/religion...& during my
search I've read, followed the links, & really enjoyed reading your
stories & information. Recently, with some trepidation, I forwarded
your main page (with all the links) on to Dave McChesney & Bill
Halbert & suggested that they read some of the information on your
website.

Last week we visited Dave & Lois in Regina. I was haughtily informed
that prior information Dave had recieved supporting you was all
garbage...& that you were dismissed or had left the work because you
had fathered a child while you were a worker.

Not knowing how to respond to this allegation, I left it at that. I'm
passing the story on to you so that you know what is being alleged
within the 'friends'. Dave went on to say that Willie McIllwrath was
dismissed from the 'Work' because he had a secret bank account (like
Willis Propp)?

Sincerely,
Ralf Pilkington

Unfortunately, this sort of dishonest stuff is only far too commonplace. Hopefully you can see some humour in this Edgar, or else you risk going crazy!

[Deleted]

Jun 4, 2013 2:03:46 GMT -5 @clearday said:

Unfortunately, this sort of dishonest stuff is only far too commonplace. Hopefully you can see some humor in this Edgar, or else you risk going crazy!

No this doesn't bother me all that much anymore -- as I have more or less learned to expect it.   Slander and willfull distortion of 'truth' has become accepted 2x2 leadership policy dealing with the critisizm of exes!!

The reason I mentioned it at all,  is that seeing that as 2x2ism clearly has decided that, respect for truth is not important if this truth should collide with the interests of their organization -(as in the obviously leadership approved deception used in getting workers into Vietnam )- then the stories they spread regarding people like me would fall into a similar "dishonesty allowed" category -- as they percieve exes to be a threat to their professed fantasy of the 'perfect way'.

How many other situation have this "feel free to lie about" label on them within the group?? When can they be trusted to respect the truth? 'Deceptive insinuation' is an acceptable and well used tool in the 2x2 toolbox regarding exes!!! Lies like these are very painful for the victim and usually effective in driving folks into the oblivion of the 'never-heard-of-again', where they won't cause as much damage!! -- but obviously this doesn't always work for them. There are folks who are willing to face the pain to stand for truth.


Within 2x2ism, truth is only important if there should be a chance of getting caught spreading their lies.  No wonder they find the Internet to be a threat.

[snow]

Edgar, reading some of the things that happened to you makes me wonder what lies got spread about me those many years ago. I know people were reluctant to have their kids around me sometimes, but I really wasn't a 'bad' kid. I just wasn't professing and had 'worldly' friends. I was a pretty normal teenager. I know they talked about me and shook their heads about how sad it all was. Now I wish I had been a fly on the wall!! lol

[Deleted]

Jun 4, 2013 10:44:50 GMT -5 snow said:

Edgar, reading some of the things that happened to you makes me wonder what lies got spread about me those many years ago. I know people were reluctant to have their kids around me sometimes, but I really wasn't a 'bad' kid. I just wasn't professing and had 'worldly' friends. I was a pretty normal teenager. I know they talked about me and shook their heads about how sad it all was. Now I wish I had been a fly on the wall!! lol

Looking back on it .. Most of the descriptive explanation of outsiders -- expecially outsiders that had a knowledge of 2x2ism .. where little white lies without the slightest affiliation with truth. "Living for the world", "gone wild", "unwilling", "rebelious", "taken up with the world" etc. etc. --- In 99% of the occasions these descriptions were used, it was taken completely out the blue with absolutely no knowledge at all of the thinking process of those that were on the outside. There was no known explanation, so workers feel they have to make one up, and share it as gossip with the friends. -- And then fantacy multiplys as it reproduces --- and no one can stand up and question the truth of it all.

For the kind of dishonesty flourishing in 2x2ism, it is easier to put confidence in a little unfounded rumor spoken with confidence, than to admit the truth is still unknown.

[snow]

Jun 4, 2013 12:59:02 GMT -5 edgarmassey said:

Jun 4, 2013 10:44:50 GMT -5 snow said:

Edgar, reading some of the things that happened to you makes me wonder what lies got spread about me those many years ago. I know people were reluctant to have their kids around me sometimes, but I really wasn't a 'bad' kid. I just wasn't professing and had 'worldly' friends. I was a pretty normal teenager. I know they talked about me and shook their heads about how sad it all was. Now I wish I had been a fly on the wall!! lol

Looking back on it .. Most of the descriptive explanation of outsiders -- expecially outsiders that had a knowledge of 2x2ism .. where little white lies without the slightest affiliation with truth. "Living for the world", "gone wild", "unwilling", "rebelious", "taken up with the world" etc. etc. --- In 99% of the occasions these descriptions were used, it was taken completely out the blue with absolutely no knowledge at all of the thinking process of those that were on the outside. There was no known explanation, so workers feel they have to make one up, and share it as gossip with the friends. -- And then fantacy multiplys as it reproduces --- and no one can stand up and question the truth of it all.

I imagine those words were used about me. In comparison to their kids I guess I would appear to have 'gone wild'. However, what really became evident to me when I did hang out with these same kids at an older age, they did most of the things I'd done, some things I'd never done and yet because they professed they were viewed as 'such spiritual young people' while I was still the one that was to be avoided and had 'lost out'. I learned pretty quick to stay away from the professing boys at convention. They were harder to handle then those 'worldly guys' most of the time. It seemed like such hypocrisy to me back then. Now I understand it to be kids trying to fit into a mold that didn't fit and repressing things. Repression only works for awhile and then it usually rears it's head in ways that are out of control, over and beyond what it would have been if they had just allowed it to enter their lives naturally without fear of guilt. We have been taught some pretty 'unnatural' things regarding 'natural' things.

[Deleted]

Actually most of the negativity expressed by 2x2ism about non-membership is based on gross arrogance and ignorance. The need to have explanation as to why folks choose something else, and the explanation has to be negative and derogatory!!!

[snow]

Jun 5, 2013 4:04:16 GMT -5 edgarmassey said:

Actually most of the negativity expressed by 2x2ism about non-membership is based on gross arrogance and ignorance. The need to have explanation as to why folks choose something else, and the explanation has to be negative and derogatory!!!

The doctrine of exclusivity and one wayness is hard to defend if God is truly who they say he is. No all loving being, all merciful being, would pick and choose who in all of his creation was going to be saved from an eternity of torment. In fact he wouldn't even contemplate any of his creation being tormented. However, the bible depicts a God that will do this. So I guess that is the justification for exclusiveness and such other unloving beliefs.

[Deleted]

Here is a recent letter from the concerned folks in Vietnamn along with this picture. This is written by the daughter to this older gentleman that wrote the first letter to me. Apparently even she and her husband have had a meeting in their home for over 30 years.


www.themasseys.net/vietnamgroupjune2013.htm

[fixit]

The following makes me wonder if these people realise their correspondence is going on the internet for all the world to see:

We like to communicate our heart with you about these issues through the above information. But we want to have careful steps because the trust of our friends.

[Deleted]

Jun 15, 2013 6:36:58 GMT -5 fixit said:

The following makes me wonder if these people realize their correspondence is going on the Internet for all the world to see:

I find it interesting and disturbing when the prime interest of 2x2 supporters is how to keep such issues of heart breaking moral concern out of the public eye. This is so typical of the enormously ego centered self-righteousness of 2x2 that it makes me sick. Not a word a single word of understanding about the horrible unrighteous issue that is tearing them apart!!! The only issue is preserving the white-wash.

Remember these are folks that have given their lives to a doctrine that now has completely betrayed them -- and in their efforts to find understanding and find like minded concern for truth, turn to others that have experienced similar treatment.

Get a hold of yourself fixit -- accept the fact that the kind of corruption and anti-christian behavior these folks describe is not going to be kept hidden - Jesus said said something about that which you may wish to be kept in darkness will be proclaimed from the housetops!!.


Read it again!!

[Deleted]

From the current letter, it is stated that these folks are aware of Edgar's online postings so it is easy to infer that they are expecting their communications with Edgar to be widely shared. The fact that the actual problems are not well articulated at this point is another good indicator to me that they are ok with their letters being shared. They are being cautious about sharing personal details of the troubles for fear of hurting people who trust them. They are temporarily withholding some information from Cherie until they are ready to disclose it. Obviously they are aware that it will become public when it is released.

Again, the way I read it, they still have a faint hope (10%) that this situation will get resolved, another reason for being slow to disclose the full story.

I would suggest that the likelihood of resolution is now near 0%. Edgar and Cherie are viewed by hardline 2x2's as being the ogres of the exes. Now that they are involved, the workers will almost certainly do nothing at all with this family, knowing that whatever they do will be both scrutinized and made public.....something they studiously avoid under any circumstances.

[Greg]

Apparently there has been three years of festering. Wonder what the initial problem was. If additional problems did not follow, at the least more people became involved or the problem(s) became more well known.

[Westsask]

It sure is encouraging to me, to see that this group of people, have the courage to stand up for their convictions.
The cost for doing this, seems to be high now, but as time goes on,seems less and less!
This has been my experience anyway...twas 11 years ago now.....how time flys!!