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Post by sacerdotal on May 20, 2013 21:23:32 GMT -5
Little do the workers probably know, but they are following in the footsteps of a long history by having a homeless ministry that relies on charity and mysticism as selling points to their message. The word for these type of ministers is "Mendicants" which is Latin for "the beggars". Wikipedia has this definition for mendicants:
The term mendicant (from Latin: mendicans, "begging") refers to begging or relying on charitable donations, and is most widely used for religious followers or ascetics who rely exclusively on charity to survive.
In principle, mendicant orders or followers do not own property, either individually or collectively, and have taken a vow of poverty, in order that all their time and energy could be expended on practicing or preaching their religion or way of life and serving the poor.
Many religious orders adhere to a mendicant way of life, including the Catholic mendicant orders, Hindu ascetics, some dervishes of Sufi Islam, and the monastic orders of Jainism and Buddhism. In the Catholic Church, followers of Saint Francis of Assisi and Saint Dominic became known as mendicants, as they would beg for food while they preached to the villages.
While mendicants are the original type of monks in Buddhism and have a long history in Indian Hinduism and the countries which adapted Indian religious traditions, they didn't become widespread in Christianity until the High Middle Ages. The Way of a Pilgrim depicts the life of an Eastern Christian mendicant.
Notice the word "ascetics". The worker way of life is a way of asceticism. Wikipedia on asceticism: "Asceticism (from the Greek: ἄσκησις, áskēsis, "exercise" or "training") describes a lifestyle characterized by abstinence from various worldly pleasures, often with the aim of pursuing religious and spiritual goals. Many religious traditions (e.g. Buddhism, Jainism, the Christian Desert Fathers) include practices that involve restraint with respect to actions of body, speech, and mind like that of the Pythagoreans. The founders and earliest practitioners of these religions lived extremely austere lifestyles, refraining from sensual pleasures and the accumulation of material wealth." OK, as many of you know, one of my central tenets about why the workers do not get married- even though that wasn't a requirement for being an apostle, is because it promotes a mysticism or "purity" about them. I was pleasantly surprised to read the following on Wikipedia in the Asceticism article about ascetics (the bold emphasis is mine): "Many of these men left their families, possessions, and homes to live a mendicant life, and in the eyes of their followers demonstrated great spiritual attainment or enlightenment." Yep- mysticism.
The ascetic and mendicant lifestyle was introduced to Western Europe by, ironically enough, Eastern ideas that they were introduced to during the Crusades. Some of these Eastern ideas of asceticism were brought back by the Crusades to Western Europe and led to a new religious order being created that was a split and rejection of the Catholic Church - the Cathars. And, who were the Cathars and what did they believe:
"A Cathar who underwent the consolamentum subsequently broke as many ties as possible with the material world, living an austere life of poverty, strict vegetarianism, absolute honesty, and absention from sexual intercourse. These individuals were known as perfecti and were considered the only true members of the Cathar congregation.
Catharism gained popularity quickly in part because the pious and ascetic behavior of the perfecti compared favorably to that of many Catholic clergy. For as the church gained temporal authority, it has also accrued riches and landed estates; the combination of power and wealth caused many of the clergy to become corrupt, neglecting their duties while living in luxury. However, the rise of Catharism was only one aspect of the widespread reaction in the twelfth century to the corruption of the Catholic Church. A religious revival swept over Europe, stressing the importance of devout piety, morality, and simplicity. Some of the reformers, such as St. Francis and St. Dominic, worked within the church. Others began as reformers but for various reasons ran afoul of the church hierarchy and ultimately were persecuted as heretics." (The Inquisition, Brenda Stalcup)
The first Inquisition was held to root out this troubling new sect that found fault with the Catholic clergy for enriching themselves. Sound familiar? Sort of like William Irvine preaching a life of asceticism because the preachers of his day, in his eyes, were simply enriching themselves? And there is a sort of glory or mysticism that goes along with choosing to lead an ascetic life. The Cathars quickly gained a following.
Doesn't the following sound sort of like William Irvine and all preachers that have followed him in the 2x2s: "Bouyed by the general wave of religious revivalism, Catharism spread swiftly in Languedoc, the southern region of France, and eventually came to the notice of the elders of the Catholic Church. The Cathars posed a serious threat to the church, and not just because of their beliefs were different from that of the established orthodox doctrine. The perfecti openly criticized the church, arguing that it had assigned too much value to the material world and had, in the words of author John Passmore, "succumbed to the temptations of wealth and worldly power." In fact, the perfecti maintained that the Catholic Church was a tool of Satan, designed to trick Christians into thinking that they had obtained salvation. Furthermore, the Cathars refused to swear oaths, including those of obedience or allegiance- a stance that had the potential to undermine the authority of both the Catholic Church and the secular government." (The Inquisition, Brenda Stalcup)
Ironically enough, some orders of the Catholic Church also adopted a stance of asceticism - an idea introduced by Eastern Religions.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2013 21:27:41 GMT -5
psalm 37 --- I have never seen the righteous forsaken or their children begging bread
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Post by sacerdotal on May 20, 2013 21:38:29 GMT -5
psalm 37 --- I have never seen the righteous forsaken or their children begging bread And what does that have to do with this topic of the workers following Eastern mysticism? You might want to read the whole post before stopping at the first or second paragraph thinking that the post was about begging- it wasn't. And besides, Lazarus was a righteous man- who was also a beggar. Just one of many inconsistencies in the bible.
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Post by sacerdotal on May 20, 2013 22:11:15 GMT -5
You responded talking about oranges (monasticism) when i had written about apples (asceticism). And here you go again, polluting a 2x2 thread with Catholic apologies. Please start a Catholic thread. I would be more than happy to enlighten the readers as to how the Catholic leadership treated the Cathars. It is a fascinating subject. In re-reading, I agree that it is not the same and I have deleted. Thank you. I will delete my trail as well.
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Post by StAnne on May 20, 2013 22:23:20 GMT -5
It doesn't seem correct to state that monastic life and asceticism are necessarily separate one from the other in all instances. Asceticism
Christianity [edit] Part of a series on Christian mysticism
Main articles[show] Theology & philosophy[show] Practices[show] Early Christianity[show] Desert Fathers[show] 11th and 12th century[show] 13th and 14th centuries[show] 15th and 16th centuries[show] 17th and 18th centuries[show] 19th century[show] 20th century[show]
See also: Ascetical theology and Degrees of Orthodox monasticism
Christian authors of late antiquity such as Origen, Jerome,[24] St. Ignatius,[25] John Chrysostom, and Augustine interpreted meanings of Biblical texts within a highly asceticized religious environment. Scriptural examples of asceticism could be found in the lives of John the Baptist, Jesus, the twelve apostles and the Apostle Paul. The Dead Sea Scrolls revealed ascetic practices of the ancient Jewish sect of Essenes who took vows of abstinence to prepare for a holy war. An emphasis on an ascetic religious life was evident in both early Christian writings (see the Philokalia) and practices (see hesychasm). Other Christian practitioners of asceticism include individuals such as Simeon Stylites, Saint David of Wales and Francis of Assisi.[26] The deserts of the middle-east were at one time inhabited by thousands of hermits[27] including St. Anthony the Great (aka St. Anthony of the Desert), St. Mary of Egypt, and St. Simeon Stylites. Sexual abstinence was only one aspect of ascetic renunciation. The ancient monks and nuns had other, equally weighty concerns: pride, humility, compassion, discernment, patience, judging others, prayer, hospitality and almsgiving. For some early Christians, gluttony represented a more primordial problem than lust and as such the reduced intake of food is also a facet of asceticism. ... Nowadays, the monastic state of Mount Athos, having a history of over a millennium, is a center of Christian spirituality and asceticism in Eastern Orthodox tradition. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asceticism
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Post by sacerdotal on May 20, 2013 22:27:39 GMT -5
It doesn't seem correct to state that monastic life and asceticism are necessarily separate one from the other in all instances. Asceticism Christianity [edit] Part of a series on Christian mysticism
Thanks, and believe it or not, you helped prove my point by what you quoted. Asceticism Christianity- a part of a series on Christian MYSTICISM. I have subscribed for quite awhile that the non-biblical, non-marriage part of the worker life is a form of mysticism. The author you are quoting seems to be of the same mindset regarding the ascetic lifestyle.
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Post by emy on May 20, 2013 22:32:45 GMT -5
Little do the workers probably know, but they are following in the footsteps of a long history by having a homeless ministry that relies on charity and mysticism as selling points to their message. The word for these type of ministers is "Mendicants" which is Latin for "the beggars". Wikipedia has this definition for mendicants: .... Isn't this what Nathan has said for a long time?
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Post by sacerdotal on May 20, 2013 22:41:14 GMT -5
Little do the workers probably know, but they are following in the footsteps of a long history by having a homeless ministry that relies on charity and mysticism as selling points to their message. The word for these type of ministers is "Mendicants" which is Latin for "the beggars". Wikipedia has this definition for mendicants: .... Isn't this what Nathan has said for a long time? Sort of, the Waldensians were around at the same time as the Cathars. But, Nathan has seemed to say that this is proof that the 2x2s stretches back to the shores of Galilee. No where have I seen any indication that this is true.
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Post by emy on May 20, 2013 22:55:23 GMT -5
I may be reading Nathan wrong, but I think he is saying that a 2x2 ministry goes back to Galilee. Therefore, those early workers probably had some contact with a 2x2 ministry, though the course they followed from that point may have been some different. Not trying to put words in N's mouth and really, just the first sentence applies. The rest is extrapolation from me. My 'theory' doesn't conform to the Matt. 10 study that has been reported, but if at some point a worker encountered such a ministry, would they not give it thorough study before adopting it? I'm not promoting this idea in any way. Just supposing.
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Post by StAnne on May 20, 2013 23:08:25 GMT -5
It doesn't seem correct to state that monastic life and asceticism are necessarily separate one from the other in all instances. Asceticism Christianity [edit] Part of a series on Christian mysticism
Thanks, and believe it or not, you helped prove my point by what you quoted. Asceticism Christianity- a part of a series on Christian MYSTICISM. I have subscribed for quite awhile that the non-biblical, non-marriage part of the worker life is a form of mysticism. The author you are quoting seems to be of the same mindset regarding the ascetic lifestyle. The Bible is full of mysticism. Thirty-eight references alone to 'mystery'. Mysticism, according to its etymology, implies a relation to mystery. In philosophy, Mysticism is either a religious tendency and desire of the human soul towards an intimate union with the Divinity, or a system growing out of such a tendency and desire. Mystery ... Colossians 4:3 And pray for us, too, that God may open a door for our message, so that we may proclaim the mystery of Christ, for which I am in chains. ...
1 Timothy 3:16 Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was ...
Ephesians 5:32 This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church. ...
Colossians 1:27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. ...
Ephesians 6:19 Pray also for me, that whenever I speak, words may be given me so that I will fearlessly make known the mystery of the gospel ...
1 Corinthians 2:7 No, we declare God's wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. ...
1 Corinthians 15:51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed ...
Revelation 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars that you saw in my ...
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2013 6:31:14 GMT -5
where in the bible do you read Origen, Jerome,[24] St. Ignatius,[25] John Chrysostom, and Augustine ?
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Post by StAnne on May 21, 2013 7:04:40 GMT -5
where in the bible do you read Origen, Jerome,[24] St. Ignatius,[25] John Chrysostom, and Augustine ? They record the history of the early church - history in which every Christian church has roots. They are among those written of here: And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.
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Post by sacerdotal on May 21, 2013 8:23:18 GMT -5
where in the bible do you read Origen, Jerome,[24] St. Ignatius,[25] John Chrysostom, and Augustine ? This would make a great topic for a new thread, Hopwood.
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Post by sacerdotal on May 21, 2013 8:39:29 GMT -5
Mysticism, according to its etymology, implies a relation to mystery. In philosophy, Mysticism is either a religious tendency and desire of the human soul towards an intimate union with the Divinity, or a system growing out of such a tendency and desire. That quote that you gave was from the Catholic Encyclopedia. I have issues, too, as you know, with the Catholic OVER USE of mysticism as a way of maintaining control over its followers. Catholicism is ripe with mysticism- from the costumes, the symbology, the waving of the censors, the chanting in latin, its adoption of pagan holidays, etc. So, of course, the Catholic Encyclopedia is going to endorse mysticism. And, by the way, it is a STRETCH to equal mysticism with mystery. It is the 4th definition in the list, and loosely related to the primary definition. Let us look at the synonyms and antonyms for the word mystic (that would be one that practices mysticism). Synonyms magic, magical, numinous, occult, weird Antonyms accessible, clear, nonambiguous, obvious, plain, unambiguous, unequivocal Is Christ the author of magic? Was he magical? Did he belong to the occult? Was he weird? (weird is subjective- so probably). Or was Christ Accessible? Clear? Nonambiguous, Obvious? Plain? Unambiguous? Unequivocal? To which list would you want your preachers to be following- the occult route of mysticism or the OPPOSITE route of clarity, truth, and unambiguous? Both Catholics and the 2x2s have an uncanny way of falling back on "lets leave it to God" or "its a mystery" whenever they are confronted with truth. Rather than acknowledge what is plainly true, such as William Irvine started this way, or that Catholicism is ripe with corruption in its priesthood, they ignore that obvious, and resort to mysticism. Atheists are 100% correct and NEEDED to help point out the lack of logic or sound thinking once mysticism enters the picture. And, again, the whole purpose of this thread is to demonstrate that the workers are following in a long line folks that lived ascetic lives and of the mysticism that they obtain from living such a life. But, again, is it REALLY a Christian thing to do to be seen as "magical, numinous, or of the occult"?
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Post by StAnne on May 21, 2013 12:41:13 GMT -5
Mysticism, according to its etymology, implies a relation to mystery. In philosophy, Mysticism is either a religious tendency and desire of the human soul towards an intimate union with the Divinity, or a system growing out of such a tendency and desire. That quote that you gave was from the Catholic Encyclopedia. I have issues, too, as you know, with the Catholic OVER USE of mysticism as a way of maintaining control over its followers. Catholicism is ripe with mysticism- from the costumes, the symbology, the waving of the censors, the chanting in latin, its adoption of pagan holidays, etc. So, of course, the Catholic Encyclopedia is going to endorse mysticism. And, by the way, it is a STRETCH to equal mysticism with mystery. It is the 4th definition in the list, and loosely related to the primary definition. Let us look at the synonyms and antonyms for the word mystic (that would be one that practices mysticism). Synonyms magic, magical, numinous, occult, weird Antonyms accessible, clear, nonambiguous, obvious, plain, unambiguous, unequivocal Is Christ the author of magic? Was he magical? Did he belong to the occult? Was he weird? (weird is subjective- so probably). Or was Christ Accessible? Clear? Nonambiguous, Obvious? Plain? Unambiguous? Unequivocal? To which list would you want your preachers to be following- the occult route of mysticism or the OPPOSITE route of clarity, truth, and unambiguous? Both Catholics and the 2x2s have an uncanny way of falling back on "lets leave it to God" or "its a mystery" whenever they are confronted with truth. Rather than acknowledge what is plainly true, such as William Irvine started this way, or that Catholicism is ripe with corruption in its priesthood, they ignore that obvious, and resort to mysticism. Atheists are 100% correct and NEEDED to help point out the lack of logic or sound thinking once mysticism enters the picture. And, again, the whole purpose of this thread is to demonstrate that the workers are following in a long line folks that lived ascetic lives and of the mysticism that they obtain from living such a life. But, again, is it REALLY a Christian thing to do to be seen as "magical, numinous, or of the occult"? First, you offered no definition. So in which category of your ambiguous definitions of mysticism are you placing the workers? Or was Christ Accessible? Clear? Nonambiguous, Obvious? Plain? Unambiguous? Unequivocal?Sometimes; often not. Just two of numerous examples ... Luke 9:43-45 31Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished. 32For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on: 33And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again. 34And they understood none of these things: and this saying was hid from them, neither knew they the things which were spoken.
Luke 8:9-10 9And his disciples asked him, saying, What might this parable be? 10And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. Was Jesus clear here? Some say yes, some say no. Nothing supernatural, nothing mystical going on here? Bread from heaven, I came down from heaven, I will raise you up, eat his flesh, drink his blood, no life in you? John 6 41The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Jesus' entire life is encompassed by the supernatural - beginning with His human conception by the power of the Holy Spirit that joined His Divine nature to His human nature. God's grace that draws us to the living waters of Baptism is supernatural. We, Christ's mystical body thru Baptism, receive sanctifying grace, the supernatural gift of His Holy Spirit. Nothing mystical, you say?
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Post by ts on May 21, 2013 14:16:39 GMT -5
It doesn't seem correct to state that monastic life and asceticism are necessarily separate one from the other in all instances. Asceticism Christianity [edit] Part of a series on Christian mysticism
Thanks, and believe it or not, you helped prove my point by what you quoted. Asceticism Christianity- a part of a series on Christian MYSTICISM. I have subscribed for quite awhile that the non-biblical, non-marriage part of the worker life is a form of mysticism. The author you are quoting seems to be of the same mindset regarding the ascetic lifestyle. I remember as a worker that I used to tell some outsides who asked about what I did that I lived an ascetic lifestyle. Then I told them about living out of a suitcase, having no home and not marrying for the sake of the gospel. There was no one whom I ever talked to in 12 years who were drawn to profess as a result of my ascetic lifestyle. Now this is interesting. Just before going to meetings, I had done some meditating with a Buddhist monk and come to determine that Buddhism was the nearest thing to the truth that I had found. I really admired the ascetic live of the monk that I knew and the way he dedicated his life to seeking truth and peace and sharing it with others. There was a mysticism in his life that I sought after. While I had Buddhism on my mind, I started going to Meeting and told my professing sister that "Buddhism is the closest thing I knew to the truth." She stated plainly that the the Meetings was the ONLY TRUTH AND WAY. After a while I began admiring the dedication the Workers had to preaching the gospel. That is what made me choose to do the same just two years later when I offered. So, Sacerdotal, there is a definite connection with me between the Work and Eastern mysticism or, perhaps rather, Buddhist asceticism. I can PLAINLY see the connection because it is my experience. A few other examples of this connection that would validate your point is Nathan and Ray Hoffman. Nathan on this board has a Buddhist background and Ray a Catholic background and both are in the Work. This small sampling does not prove anything statistically, but if you are just taking a look at the spirit of asceticism it is worth looking at examples and how it plays out in peoples' lives.
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Post by emy on May 21, 2013 16:50:56 GMT -5
... Let us look at the synonyms and antonyms for the word mystic (that would be one that practices mysticism). Synonyms magic, magical, numinous, occult, weird Antonyms accessible, clear, nonambiguous, obvious, plain, unambiguous, unequivocal Is Christ the author of magic? Was he magical? Did he belong to the occult? Was he weird? (weird is subjective- so probably). Or was Christ Accessible? Clear? Nonambiguous, Obvious? Plain? Unambiguous? Unequivocal? To which list would you want your preachers to be following- the occult route of mysticism or the OPPOSITE route of clarity, truth, and unambiguous? .... Why did you leave out "numinous" in your comments? Here are definitions and antonyms for numinous: 1 supernatural, mysterious 2 filled with a sense of the presence of divinity : holy ********* commonplace, everyday, normal, ordinary, prosaic, routine, run-of-the-mill, unexceptional, unremarkable, usual, workaday I'd prefer workers filled with the presence of the Holy Spirit (divinity). St. Anne covered the question about whether Jesus was ambiguous or not.
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Post by snow on May 21, 2013 18:19:25 GMT -5
Interesting subject. Some years ago I did a study on the Cathars and what they believed. I was stunned at how they resembled the 'Truth' in their beliefs. Not 100%, but enough that it was uncanny. Mystery and mysticism aren't really the same thing, though are similar of course. There are many individuals in all religions that could be categorized as mystics. The Eastern religions are probably the most inclined in that direction. Jesus preached a lot of Eastern philosophy as far as I'm concerned. It isn't hard to understand why many people believe he traveled to India in the 'missing years', and learned the philosophy of Buddhism, Hinduism etc. Then he returned and preached what he had learned. There is said to be scrolls in some of the older monasteries in Tibet that talk about Jesus (Issa) and 'his friends' visiting the monastery and learning from the monks. Then they returned to Jerusalem to teach what they had learned. The friends that were supposed to have gone with him were his 2nd cousin, John the Baptist, Miriam (Mary Magdalene), his uncle, Joseph of Arimathea and Thomas who later became his disciple.
I read a book a few years ago that you may be interested in SD. It is called 'A Metaphysical Interpretation of the Bible' by Steven L. Hairfield. It is a big book and covers a lot of territory, but it was interesting. Just thought I'd mention it. I enjoyed it but found it heavy going.
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Post by ts on May 21, 2013 18:26:51 GMT -5
... Let us look at the synonyms and antonyms for the word mystic (that would be one that practices mysticism). Synonyms magic, magical, numinous, occult, weird Antonyms accessible, clear, nonambiguous, obvious, plain, unambiguous, unequivocal Is Christ the author of magic? Was he magical? Did he belong to the occult? Was he weird? (weird is subjective- so probably). Or was Christ Accessible? Clear? Nonambiguous, Obvious? Plain? Unambiguous? Unequivocal? To which list would you want your preachers to be following- the occult route of mysticism or the OPPOSITE route of clarity, truth, and unambiguous? .... Why did you leave out "numinous" in your comments? Here are definitions and antonyms for numinous: 1 supernatural, mysterious 2 filled with a sense of the presence of divinity : holy ********* commonplace, everyday, normal, ordinary, prosaic, routine, run-of-the-mill, unexceptional, unremarkable, usual, workaday I'd prefer workers filled with the presence of the Holy Spirit (divinity). St. Anne covered the question about whether Jesus was ambiguous or not. I also would prefer that the Workers were filled with the Holy Spirit. If they were, they would recognize others who were filled with the Holy Spirit and actually have fellowship with them in the Spirit. Instead, the "revelation of the Holy Spirit" to the Workers only allows them to realize that the unmarried Worker 2x2 ministry is the only Truth and Way as taught by Jesus. Nothing else.
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Post by sacerdotal on May 21, 2013 19:38:55 GMT -5
... Let us look at the synonyms and antonyms for the word mystic (that would be one that practices mysticism). Synonyms magic, magical, numinous, occult, weird Antonyms accessible, clear, nonambiguous, obvious, plain, unambiguous, unequivocal Is Christ the author of magic? Was he magical? Did he belong to the occult? Was he weird? (weird is subjective- so probably). Or was Christ Accessible? Clear? Nonambiguous, Obvious? Plain? Unambiguous? Unequivocal? To which list would you want your preachers to be following- the occult route of mysticism or the OPPOSITE route of clarity, truth, and unambiguous? .... Why did you leave out "numinous" in your comments? Here are definitions and antonyms for numinous: 1 supernatural, mysterious 2 filled with a sense of the presence of divinity : holy ********* commonplace, everyday, normal, ordinary, prosaic, routine, run-of-the-mill, unexceptional, unremarkable, usual, workaday I'd prefer workers filled with the presence of the Holy Spirit (divinity). St. Anne covered the question about whether Jesus was ambiguous or not. Emy, just to be clear- do you support the workers living a life that is closer to the traditions of the occult than the traditions of Christ? It is odd that St. Anne is pushing it as an OK thing (following the occult- when the Catholic church used to deliver the Cathars to be burned for the very same offense.) Do you know why the Catholic priests used burning as the execution of choice? Because they didn't want to spill blood- because that would be a sin. But- roasting someone- that is OK. The workers do not follow the New Testament ministry- not even close. They lead a life that is ascetic for mysticism purposes. That has NOTHING to do with the Holy Spirit and EVERYTHING to do with APPEARING to be righteous. The Holy Spirit can be manifest in any life- it doesn't need the dog and pony show to draw attention to itself. That is what this thread is about- even though St. Anne gets her panties in a wad anytime Catholicism is mentioned. As I wrote to her, I am not quoting myself- but experts. And yes, St. Anne, the Catholic priests are much worse than the workers at putting on shows and wearing silly costumes in an effort to appear holy. It is a sensual type worship that is spoken against in the New Testament.
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Post by sacerdotal on May 21, 2013 19:45:40 GMT -5
Thanks, and believe it or not, you helped prove my point by what you quoted. Asceticism Christianity- a part of a series on Christian MYSTICISM. I have subscribed for quite awhile that the non-biblical, non-marriage part of the worker life is a form of mysticism. The author you are quoting seems to be of the same mindset regarding the ascetic lifestyle. I remember as a worker that I used to tell some outsides who asked about what I did that I lived an ascetic lifestyle. Then I told them about living out of a suitcase, having no home and not marrying for the sake of the gospel. There was no one whom I ever talked to in 12 years who were drawn to profess as a result of my ascetic lifestyle. Now this is interesting. Just before going to meetings, I had done some meditating with a Buddhist monk and come to determine that Buddhism was the nearest thing to the truth that I had found. I really admired the ascetic live of the monk that I knew and the way he dedicated his life to seeking truth and peace and sharing it with others. There was a mysticism in his life that I sought after. While I had Buddhism on my mind, I started going to Meeting and told my professing sister that "Buddhism is the closest thing I knew to the truth." She stated plainly that the the Meetings was the ONLY TRUTH AND WAY. After a while I began admiring the dedication the Workers had to preaching the gospel. That is what made me choose to do the same just two years later when I offered. So, Sacerdotal, there is a definite connection with me between the Work and Eastern mysticism or, perhaps rather, Buddhist asceticism. I can PLAINLY see the connection because it is my experience. A few other examples of this connection that would validate your point is Nathan and Ray Hoffman. Nathan on this board has a Buddhist background and Ray a Catholic background and both are in the Work. This small sampling does not prove anything statistically, but if you are just taking a look at the spirit of asceticism it is worth looking at examples and how it plays out in peoples' lives. Yep, the correlation between asceticism and its roots in Eastern religion is fascinating.
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Post by StAnne on May 21, 2013 20:39:47 GMT -5
Why did you leave out "numinous" in your comments? Here are definitions and antonyms for numinous: 1 supernatural, mysterious 2 filled with a sense of the presence of divinity : holy ********* commonplace, everyday, normal, ordinary, prosaic, routine, run-of-the-mill, unexceptional, unremarkable, usual, workaday I'd prefer workers filled with the presence of the Holy Spirit (divinity). St. Anne covered the question about whether Jesus was ambiguous or not. Emy, just to be clear- do you support the workers living a life that is closer to the traditions of the occult than the traditions of Christ? It is odd that St. Anne is pushing it as an OK thing (following the occult- when the Catholic church used to deliver the Cathars to be burned for the very same offense.) Do you know why the Catholic priests used burning as the execution of choice? Because they didn't want to spill blood- because that would be a sin. But- roasting someone- that is OK. The workers do not follow the New Testament ministry- not even close. They lead a life that is ascetic for mysticism purposes. That has NOTHING to do with the Holy Spirit and EVERYTHING to do with APPEARING to be righteous. The Holy Spirit can be manifest in any life- it doesn't need the dog and pony show to draw attention to itself. That is what this thread is about- even though St. Anne gets her panties in a wad anytime Catholicism is mentioned. As I wrote to her, I am not quoting myself- but experts. And yes, St. Anne, the Catholic priests are much worse than the workers at putting on shows and wearing silly costumes in an effort to appear holy. It is a sensual type worship that is spoken against in the New Testament. You know. The people I'm around don't speak to or about others this way. Prayers.
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Post by emy on May 21, 2013 20:52:34 GMT -5
In what way do the workers live in any traditions of the occult?
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Post by ts on May 21, 2013 21:22:18 GMT -5
Emy, just to be clear- do you support the workers living a life that is closer to the traditions of the occult than the traditions of Christ? It is odd that St. Anne is pushing it as an OK thing (following the occult- when the Catholic church used to deliver the Cathars to be burned for the very same offense.) Do you know why the Catholic priests used burning as the execution of choice? Because they didn't want to spill blood- because that would be a sin. But- roasting someone- that is OK. The workers do not follow the New Testament ministry- not even close. They lead a life that is ascetic for mysticism purposes. That has NOTHING to do with the Holy Spirit and EVERYTHING to do with APPEARING to be righteous. The Holy Spirit can be manifest in any life- it doesn't need the dog and pony show to draw attention to itself. That is what this thread is about- even though St. Anne gets her panties in a wad anytime Catholicism is mentioned. As I wrote to her, I am not quoting myself- but experts. And yes, St. Anne, the Catholic priests are much worse than the workers at putting on shows and wearing silly costumes in an effort to appear holy. It is a sensual type worship that is spoken against in the New Testament. You know. The people I'm around don't speak to or about others this way. Prayers.Perhaps he should have said that St Anne gets in a tizzy every time anyone mentions anything about Catholicism. You do have to admit that your knee jerk reaction is to defend catholicism even though sacerdotal pointed out some very valid points. You then attacked the messenger(by insinuating that his frustrated delivery of a rebuke is unspiritual) rather than look at the message. So, what do you actually think of the actual message? I am really curious to know. To me it sounds well documented and well researched.
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Post by What Hat on May 21, 2013 21:22:58 GMT -5
Why did you leave out "numinous" in your comments? Here are definitions and antonyms for numinous: 1 supernatural, mysterious 2 filled with a sense of the presence of divinity : holy ********* commonplace, everyday, normal, ordinary, prosaic, routine, run-of-the-mill, unexceptional, unremarkable, usual, workaday I'd prefer workers filled with the presence of the Holy Spirit (divinity). St. Anne covered the question about whether Jesus was ambiguous or not. Emy, just to be clear- do you support the workers living a life that is closer to the traditions of the occult than the traditions of Christ? It is odd that St. Anne is pushing it as an OK thing (following the occult- when the Catholic church used to deliver the Cathars to be burned for the very same offense.) Do you know why the Catholic priests used burning as the execution of choice? Because they didn't want to spill blood- because that would be a sin. But- roasting someone- that is OK. The workers do not follow the New Testament ministry- not even close. They lead a life that is ascetic for mysticism purposes. That has NOTHING to do with the Holy Spirit and EVERYTHING to do with APPEARING to be righteous. The Holy Spirit can be manifest in any life- it doesn't need the dog and pony show to draw attention to itself. That is what this thread is about- even though St. Anne gets her panties in a wad anytime Catholicism is mentioned. As I wrote to her, I am not quoting myself- but experts. And yes, St. Anne, the Catholic priests are much worse than the workers at putting on shows and wearing silly costumes in an effort to appear holy. It is a sensual type worship that is spoken against in the New Testament. I don't really agree with the idea that there is no value in ascetism or in mysticism, two different concepts. Mar 9:29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.I am against roasting though unless it involves peanuts, beef or Don Rickles.
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Post by What Hat on May 21, 2013 21:29:48 GMT -5
In what way do the workers live in any traditions of the occult? Many members of the occult carry a pen in their left shirt pocket.
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Post by What Hat on May 21, 2013 21:32:03 GMT -5
I remember as a worker that I used to tell some outsides who asked about what I did that I lived an ascetic lifestyle. Then I told them about living out of a suitcase, having no home and not marrying for the sake of the gospel. There was no one whom I ever talked to in 12 years who were drawn to profess as a result of my ascetic lifestyle. Now this is interesting. Just before going to meetings, I had done some meditating with a Buddhist monk and come to determine that Buddhism was the nearest thing to the truth that I had found. I really admired the ascetic live of the monk that I knew and the way he dedicated his life to seeking truth and peace and sharing it with others. There was a mysticism in his life that I sought after. While I had Buddhism on my mind, I started going to Meeting and told my professing sister that "Buddhism is the closest thing I knew to the truth." She stated plainly that the the Meetings was the ONLY TRUTH AND WAY. After a while I began admiring the dedication the Workers had to preaching the gospel. That is what made me choose to do the same just two years later when I offered. So, Sacerdotal, there is a definite connection with me between the Work and Eastern mysticism or, perhaps rather, Buddhist asceticism. I can PLAINLY see the connection because it is my experience. A few other examples of this connection that would validate your point is Nathan and Ray Hoffman. Nathan on this board has a Buddhist background and Ray a Catholic background and both are in the Work. This small sampling does not prove anything statistically, but if you are just taking a look at the spirit of asceticism it is worth looking at examples and how it plays out in peoples' lives. Yep, the correlation between asceticism and its roots in Eastern religion is fascinating. All of a sudden my estimation of the workers has jumped 20%. Would you consider Thomas Merton to be a worker?
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Post by sacerdotal on May 21, 2013 21:32:37 GMT -5
Emy, just to be clear- do you support the workers living a life that is closer to the traditions of the occult than the traditions of Christ? It is odd that St. Anne is pushing it as an OK thing (following the occult- when the Catholic church used to deliver the Cathars to be burned for the very same offense.) Do you know why the Catholic priests used burning as the execution of choice? Because they didn't want to spill blood- because that would be a sin. But- roasting someone- that is OK. The workers do not follow the New Testament ministry- not even close. They lead a life that is ascetic for mysticism purposes. That has NOTHING to do with the Holy Spirit and EVERYTHING to do with APPEARING to be righteous. The Holy Spirit can be manifest in any life- it doesn't need the dog and pony show to draw attention to itself. That is what this thread is about- even though St. Anne gets her panties in a wad anytime Catholicism is mentioned. As I wrote to her, I am not quoting myself- but experts. And yes, St. Anne, the Catholic priests are much worse than the workers at putting on shows and wearing silly costumes in an effort to appear holy. It is a sensual type worship that is spoken against in the New Testament. I don't really agree with the idea that there is no value in ascetism or in mysticism, two different concepts. Mar 9:29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.I am against roasting though unless it involves peanuts, beef or Don Rickles. Or Dean Martin.
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