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Post by ts on Apr 29, 2013 11:54:55 GMT -5
TS, Thank you for clarifying your stand. You sometimes seem so angry at anything to do with the workers and the friends that it is hard to think you see good in any of them. I know you do not mean that but that is how it sounds. Just remember that we are all still growing and experiences do change peoples vision. God has helped you see things. He can help others see things also. I am sometimes angry. I am angry when the supposed shepherds hurt and deceive the sheep. That is because I have the heart of a shepherd. The workers and friends are not going to "get it" if I(or anyone else) keeps feeding them the same doctrine they have always gotten. The Worker and Friend solution to all the confusion is to "keep going to meeting and God will sort it out". However, they will tell "the world" that they must get out of the falseness they are in and get into meeting in order to know the fullness of God's will. I am only telling the Friends and Workers that they must stop cutting themselves off from the REST of the body of Christ. It is harmful and detrimental to them. They will not grow in understanding that way. You notice that I did not exclude them from the body of Christ. I said they must join the REST of the body of Christ. The Workers and Friends are certainly a very unhealthy part of the body that cannot receive help from the healthy parts because of their exclusive stance and fear of venturing "outside".
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Post by ts on Apr 29, 2013 13:50:48 GMT -5
Marie, the Holy Spirit does guide people like myself out of Meeting to have fellowship with other Christians and to a deeper fellowship with our Father. There is bondage in meeting and God leads us out of bondage.
I don't think it is right to simply "let God do it". Neither do the Workers. The Workers are doing what I used to do. They are giving their lives so that people can get into Meeting. They are not simply passive in their effort. Why preach the gospel of Meeting doctrine if it is a matter of "let God do it"?
Is it any wonder that God is sending messengers to the Friends and Workers. I firmly believe that God loves the Friends and Workers and wants more for them than they can have while bound in their system. I know that God loves them because I love them and God has given me His heart for them.
I do not think that you or anyone else is destined to simply "tough it out" or "patiently endure" the unGodliness of the Workers and Friends who are caught up in the system. This mentality is simply one more lie that the Workers have taught that many of the Friends and Workers have accepted.
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Post by ronhall on Apr 29, 2013 14:09:10 GMT -5
I found it interesting how the discussion of the 'tares' went, seeming as though the tares were evil people within the fellowship.
I've never thought of them in that light. I would tend to believe they are folks within the fellowship that don't develop into fruitfulness. Specifically the fruits of repentance. They may have nice prayers and testimonies in meeting and be well enough versed on Scripture and general living that they are the ones many look up to and take advice from -- perhaps bordering on being known as know-it-alls, often being thought of as 'kingdom minded'.
They often have a vast knowledge of all the coming, going and other business of just about any of the friends and workers. They often have a nice way about them that when in a conversation you may find yourself divulging details of your own or others personal lives that you would not normally feel comfortable informing others of. Where there are gaps in what they have heard or seen, they have an uncanny way of surmising a reasonable story to fill these gaps. As such, these 'tares' are a great source of information and what they report seems seamless and accurate.
The scriptures refer to them as 'busy bodies' and those who have a "form of godliness" but deny the power of it -- that is doing all the things that show, such as impeccable meeting and other gathering attendance etc., with the express purpose of building up their own selves and reputations to gain the approval of friends and workers. It works! Yet the fruits of self-denial and putting down self to let the spirit of Christ take root and flourish in their lives is somehow lacking.
I can mention this in great detail because all I need to do is look in the mirror to realize this might well be a depiction of my service at various times in my life. In essence I did things to 'look good' hoping to elevate others regard of me, rather than doing them out of a pure and honest heart.
Another way I think of 'tares' is those who are 'freeloaders', taking up space and time but never contributing to any extent. They are not diligent in reading and meditating. Never dig into the scriptures further than to be able to expound the 'party line'. Testimonies are developed from convention notes, particularly the convention 'gems' notes that get passed around from time-to-time. Again, I know all about this in a personal sense, because there have been times when Sunday morning I just couldn't think of one spiritual thought I had over the previous week. So I used convention notes/gems as a crutch to gather a nice testimony for Sunday morning fellowship meeting.
It would have been far better to have publicly acknowledged my lack and need and resolved to be more diligent in the coming week.
That is my 'take' on the tares and the 'tare' nature that resides within me.
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Post by snow on Apr 29, 2013 14:12:56 GMT -5
I found it interesting how the discussion of the 'tares' went, seeming as though the tares were evil people within the fellowship. I've never thought of them in that light. I would tend to believe they are folks within the fellowship that don't develop into fruitfulness. Specifically the fruits of repentance. They may have nice prayers and testimonies in meeting and be well enough versed on Scripture and general living that they are the ones many look up to and take advice from -- perhaps bordering on being known as know-it-alls, often being thought of as 'kingdom minded'. They often have a vast knowledge of all the coming, going and other business of just about any of the friends and workers. They often have a nice way about them that when in a conversation you may find yourself divulging details of your own or others personal lives that you would not normally feel comfortable informing others of. Where there are gaps in what they have heard or seen, they have an uncanny way of surmising a reasonable story to fill these gaps. As such, these 'tares' are a great source of information and what they report seems seamless and accurate. The scriptures refer to them as 'busy bodies' and those who have a "form of godliness" but deny the power of it -- that is doing all the things that show, such as impeccable meeting and other gathering attendance etc., with the express purpose of building up their own selves and reputations to gain the approval of friends and workers. It works! Yet the fruits of self-denial and putting down self to let the spirit of Christ take root and flourish in their lives is somehow lacking. I can mention this in great detail because all I need to do is look in the mirror to realize this might well be a depiction of my service at various times in my life. In essence I did things to 'look good' hoping to elevate others regard of me, rather than doing them out of a pure and honest heart. Another way I think of 'tares' is those who are 'freeloaders', taking up space and time but never contributing to any extent. They are not diligent in reading and meditating. Never dig into the scriptures further than to be able to expound the 'party line'. Testimonies are developed from convention notes, particularly the convention 'gems' notes that get passed around from time-to-time. Again, I know all about this in a personal sense, because there have been times when Sunday morning I just couldn't think of one spiritual thought I had over the previous week. So I used convention notes/gems as a crutch to gather a nice testimony for Sunday morning fellowship meeting. It would have been far better to have publicly acknowledged my lack and need and resolved to be more diligent in the coming week. That is my 'take' on the tares and the 'tare' nature that resides within me. Similar to an 'inner jihad'?
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Post by ts on Apr 29, 2013 15:00:17 GMT -5
I found it interesting how the discussion of the 'tares' went, seeming as though the tares were evil people within the fellowship. I've never thought of them in that light. I would tend to believe they are folks within the fellowship that don't develop into fruitfulness. Specifically the fruits of repentance. They may have nice prayers and testimonies in meeting and be well enough versed on Scripture and general living that they are the ones many look up to and take advice from -- perhaps bordering on being known as know-it-alls, often being thought of as 'kingdom minded'. They often have a vast knowledge of all the coming, going and other business of just about any of the friends and workers. They often have a nice way about them that when in a conversation you may find yourself divulging details of your own or others personal lives that you would not normally feel comfortable informing others of. Where there are gaps in what they have heard or seen, they have an uncanny way of surmising a reasonable story to fill these gaps. As such, these 'tares' are a great source of information and what they report seems seamless and accurate. The scriptures refer to them as 'busy bodies' and those who have a "form of godliness" but deny the power of it -- that is doing all the things that show, such as impeccable meeting and other gathering attendance etc., with the express purpose of building up their own selves and reputations to gain the approval of friends and workers. It works! Yet the fruits of self-denial and putting down self to let the spirit of Christ take root and flourish in their lives is somehow lacking. I can mention this in great detail because all I need to do is look in the mirror to realize this might well be a depiction of my service at various times in my life. In essence I did things to 'look good' hoping to elevate others regard of me, rather than doing them out of a pure and honest heart. Another way I think of 'tares' is those who are 'freeloaders', taking up space and time but never contributing to any extent. They are not diligent in reading and meditating. Never dig into the scriptures further than to be able to expound the 'party line'. Testimonies are developed from convention notes, particularly the convention 'gems' notes that get passed around from time-to-time. Again, I know all about this in a personal sense, because there have been times when Sunday morning I just couldn't think of one spiritual thought I had over the previous week. So I used convention notes/gems as a crutch to gather a nice testimony for Sunday morning fellowship meeting. It would have been far better to have publicly acknowledged my lack and need and resolved to be more diligent in the coming week. That is my 'take' on the tares and the 'tare' nature that resides within me. "Having a form of Godliness but denying the power thereof."I don't really think that the Workers preach the real power of the gospel. What you described as "tares" is exactly what most easily elevates a Worker to Overseer. What qualifies as "fruit" is what most easily gets one excommunicated. I had a companion who cast out a demon from a lady. Does that qualify as the power of Godliness? That story was doubted and then suppressed when it was proved to be undoubtedly true. These types of stories SHOULD be common place in our Christian experience along with healing and other supernatural signs that follow those who believe. The Workers describe the 2x2 ministry and the meeting in the home as "the power of Godliness" that "the world" denies. That is it. All they really have is another religious structure and set of rules that they compare to other religious structures and call their "right" and others "false". However, if they would take it, they have just as much access to the real power of the Holy Spirit as anyone else. They have access to the REAL gospel. They can and SHOULD grasp this power and realize their real place in the Kingdom of God. The fact that they do not realize this is exactly why they need the gospel preached and demonstrated among them.
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Post by kencoolidge on Apr 29, 2013 15:29:22 GMT -5
Ken, I agree. What bothers me is TS will include everyone else as having the spirit but excludes the workers and friends as all being deceived. That is not true. There are friends and workers that have the spirit. That believe is as exclusive as the F/W. I don't think the Holy Spirit is absent from the meetings or each individual life of the friends and workers. I believe that they are all varying degrees of deceived and enlightened, if you will. I don't think the friends and workers are unique in this regard in the body of Christ, either. I think that there is a religious spirit in much of the Church. Because of this, people like yourself struggle to know who God really is, who the Holy Spirit really is and who Jesus really is. We struggle for identity. The group of the 2x2s is important to you. You can't have fellowship with another group of Christians. I understand that. There are many groups out there that have a religious spirit in them just like the Meetings. It is hard to know how to navigate in the Christian world when coming out of Meeting, Exclusivity doctrine. There are few if any exceptions among the Friends and Workers. If they have ever accepted the Meetings as the only truth and Way and rejected all other groups, they are going to have a struggle. Yes, the Holy Spirit CAN speak and certainly does. I believe the Spirit takes us where we are. However, in Meeting, the "leading of the Holy Spirit" only leads towards being MORE Meeting like. That is the only way the Workers have of interpreting the direction of the Holy Spirit. One major overseer recently said to a friend of mine that the Holy Spirit would NEVER lead anyone OUT of Meeting. That is simply false and is a common belief among the Workers and Friends. Marie, God preserved and lead the Children of Israel for 40 years in the wilderness until that generation died off and then He led them into the land He had promised them. They COULD have just walked right in but they were afraid of the giants and doubted God's power. They continually wanted to turn back to Egypt to their pagan roots and the "good" life. They were ALL SUPPOSED to go up the mountain with Moses but chose to send Moses up in their stead alone. They were scared. They were content with the religiousness and Baal worship offered them the religiousness that they were comfortable with. The law was good but religiousness is bad. That had no understanding or discernment. That is the place the Church in general often is, Marie. The Friends and Workers are no exception. Many who are "preserved" in Meetings are afraid to go "outside" and seek the abundance of provision, joy and contentment that others in the body of Christ are experiencing. It takes as much faith to break free of the Meetings as it did for the Children of Israel to come out of the wilderness and into the Promise Land. The fact that there is MORE to a relationship with our Father than the Meetings could EVER offer is GOOD NEWS! It is the gospel of peace. It is Wonderful!!! Does it seem strange to think that the Workers and Friends need the gospel preached to them by someone besides a Worker? TS Thanks for the clarity of your post and followup posts. You know both sides of the issue and how the fellowship could enjoy more of the abundance that God supplies. Love you brother ken
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Post by ts on Apr 29, 2013 19:30:50 GMT -5
I know in the Work we often said and heard said that we appreciated sitting in gospel meetings and hearing the gospel again.
Somehow, the Workers do not appreciate the "good news" preached to them from an "outsider". Especially and ex Worker.
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Post by shipwreckedsailor on Apr 29, 2013 20:21:52 GMT -5
TS Quote: It takes as much faith to break free of the Meetings as it did for the Children of Israel to come out of the wilderness and into the Promise Land. (End Quote)
Amen ts!
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Post by ts on Apr 29, 2013 21:43:55 GMT -5
TS Quote: It takes as much faith to break free of the Meetings as it did for the Children of Israel to come out of the wilderness and into the Promise Land. (End Quote) Amen ts! Yes, and the GOOD NEWS(gospel) is: As big and ugly as the giants look, the victory is already won. Jesus has already prepared the way. There IS fellowship outside of meeting. There IS comfort for the rejection of the Friends and Workers. There IS so much hope and comfort and an overflow "outside" that we can even have the grace and love and joy to bring the gospel back to the Friends and Workers who were so ignorant, nasty and uncaring. We can bring the gospel to them WITH POWER. The world outside of meeting is not one of just limping around and not ever knowing what happened and just getting by. It is a land flowing with milk and honey. An abundance of grace and power. God DOES restore the years that the locust have eaten.
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Post by Sylvestra on Apr 30, 2013 14:28:09 GMT -5
TS Quote: It takes as much faith to break free of the Meetings as it did for the Children of Israel to come out of the wilderness and into the Promise Land. (End Quote) Amen ts! Yes, and the GOOD NEWS(gospel) is: As big and ugly as the giants look, the victory is already won. Jesus has already prepared the way. There IS fellowship outside of meeting. There IS comfort for the rejection of the Friends and Workers. There IS so much hope and comfort and an overflow "outside" that we can even have the grace and love and joy to bring the gospel back to the Friends and Workers who were so ignorant, nasty and uncaring. We can bring the gospel to them WITH POWER. The world outside of meeting is not one of just limping around and not ever knowing what happened and just getting by. It is a land flowing with milk and honey. An abundance of grace and power. God DOES restore the years that the locust have eaten. Thank you for this, ts!!! This has been my experience! I know so often when people start questioning "in or out", what they will do after their social network is gone is a big fear. Or, at least a great concern! I can vouch for what you've said....life, and life abundantly, goes on. Sometimes it takes a while, which varies from person to person....but the journey is interesting and exciting ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png)
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