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Post by ts on Apr 24, 2013 11:42:11 GMT -5
Just to add a little balance. The workers do not directly solicit money. Whether or not that is a virtue is a matter of debate. Of course they feel that it is the absence of asking for money that distinguishes them from the salaried minister and maintains their "living by faith" status. The downside of that formula is that, as sacerdotal points out, the big letter writers get more money, and undoubtedly the more outgoing, popular workers also get more money. Workers of a higher status will also get more money, ie the overseer, the convention organizer, the brother worker (vs sister worker), as well as the worker with a large, well-off professing family behind them.There is nothing particularly virtuous or fair in that. I always thought that the continual preaching that the workers don't ask for money was a subtle way of asking for money. You are right. the workers do know that the hearts of most of the friends are soft and tender. They do actually care for the workers and care for lost souls who are outside the 2x2s. If a worker tells story of how someone left their religion/denomination to become a part of the 2x2s, it moves them. Especially if this worker is in another country. Don't you love it when a worker tells a story of talking to another preacher and the worker shares how the preacher says "it is impossible to preach without a salary...etc"? And then the worker can share the gospel of the 2x2s and how the workers are not paid....This sort of story moves people to prove the workers right and give without being asked....Yet, they are being asked without a question mark.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2013 12:46:32 GMT -5
Don't you love it when a worker tells a story of talking to another preacher and the worker shares how the preacher says "it is impossible to preach without a salary...etc"? And then the worker can share the gospel of the 2x2s and how the workers are not paid....This sort of story moves people to prove the workers right and give without being asked....Yet, they are being asked without a question mark. That reminds me of something I had heard a number of years ago. A Pastor and a Worker were conversing and the conversation got around to the payment of their salaries and the worker explained that workers were not paid a salary but relied on, and shared, the substance of friends within the fellowship, the Pastor replied, "you chaps surely do have a lot of faith."
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2013 13:00:01 GMT -5
Don't you love it when a worker tells a story of talking to another preacher and the worker shares how the preacher says "it is impossible to preach without a salary...etc"? And then the worker can share the gospel of the 2x2s and how the workers are not paid....This sort of story moves people to prove the workers right and give without being asked....Yet, they are being asked without a question mark. That reminds me of something I had heard a number of years ago. A Pastor and a Worker were conversing and the conversation got around to the payment of their salaries and the worker explained that workers were not paid a salary but relied on, and shared, the substance of friends within the fellowship, the Pastor replied, "you chaps surely do have a lot of faith." They sure do. Faith is the substance of things hoped for.........
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Post by jondough on Apr 25, 2013 13:07:21 GMT -5
And just the same, in a Trust, it would have been taxable as he took distributions. The difference would be who was responsible for the taxes. For a revocable trust the grantor is responsible for the taxes. For an irrevocable trusts where the grantor retains any control of the assets the grantor is responsible for the taxes. For an irrevocable trusts where the grantor does not have any control of the assets, the taxes on any income are paid under the tax identification number of the trust. Upon the death of the grantor the trust becomes irrevocable and taxing the distribution of a trust is a whole other set of issues but is usually the responsibility of the beneficiary. And the latter is the one that would amost always apply to the workers. So then the workers would either have to take the distribution through one of the friends, or file an income tax return themselves. I would guess the former.
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Post by jondough on Apr 25, 2013 13:16:22 GMT -5
It seems to me like some are very intent on jumping all over Barry Barkly.
I think BB's biggest crime was not wanting to place himself as judge. Being the one to remove the tares. Not taking action against something evil, probably hoping God would take care of it.
Is he an evil person. I see no indication of that. Probably way to nice and passive of a guy for an overseer's position. Probably needs more back-bone. I wonder how he got placed in that position. Good chance he didn't want to be placed there.
I don't personally know him, but I know a lot of people that do, and all they can do is talk good about him. I think he is Godly man. He probably lacks the courage necessary for his position. Lets pray that all God's people have courage enough to stand up for what is right. The courage to make tough decisions when they need to be made.
---ok---go ahead and jump all over me now-----
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Post by CherieKropp on Apr 25, 2013 14:48:50 GMT -5
JD asked
It is my understanding that Taylor Wood handpicked BB to be his successor; just as Taylor was handpicked by Andrew Abernethy; who was handpicked by George Walker; who was handpicked by Wm Irvine.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2013 15:17:09 GMT -5
JD asked It is my understanding that Taylor Wood handpicked BB to be his successor; just as Taylor was handpicked by Andrew Abernethy; who was handpicked by George Walker; who was handpicked by Wm Irvine. Sounds like the LWD. The Living Worker Doctrine
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Post by rational on Apr 25, 2013 15:35:09 GMT -5
JD asked It is my understanding that Taylor Wood handpicked BB to be his successor; just as Taylor was handpicked by Andrew Abernethy; who was handpicked by George Walker; who was handpicked by Wm Irvine. Did you miss Charles Steffen?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 25, 2013 17:12:08 GMT -5
Rat, Charles was never the overseer's overseers like Taylor and Barry. Thank goodness for that.
I will not jump all over you about Barry because I have been very confused as to who Barry really is. I have seen him be a very kind and caring person and then I have personally experienced a very cold and heartless side of him.
He was my brothers first companion. I have ask him to explain who Barry really is. His answer was Barry leads by example.
I would say I have not been impressed with his example of handling abuse issues amongst the workers and friends.
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Post by quizzer on Apr 25, 2013 17:44:44 GMT -5
JD asked It is my understanding that Taylor Wood handpicked BB to be his successor; just as Taylor was handpicked by Andrew Abernethy; who was handpicked by George Walker; who was handpicked by Wm Irvine. Cherie, when did WI choose GW to be his successor?
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Post by emy on Apr 25, 2013 19:35:38 GMT -5
JD asked It is my understanding that Taylor Wood handpicked BB to be his successor; just as Taylor was handpicked by Andrew Abernethy; who was handpicked by George Walker; who was handpicked by Wm Irvine. Did you miss Charles Steffen? And Arnold Brown?
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Post by Greg on Apr 25, 2013 20:07:26 GMT -5
George Walker was the original appointee for eastern USA.
Arnold Brown, I think, was an overseer of headworkers (overseer of states), a sub-regional overseer, an advisor to the regional (final word) overseer.
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Post by ts on Apr 25, 2013 21:52:22 GMT -5
Sam McCracken was another Andrew Abernathy protege. Sam was "subordinate" to Taylor but just barely. Sam would probably have been in Taylor's position had he not been just the right age to be subordinate. Just guessing. However, Taylor leaned heavily on Sam. Taylor knew that Sam was abusive. He said that he kept him where he was because Sam is a "good organizer".
Just shows that it is not the spirit of a child that gets you to the top in the Work.
Barry, Sam, Arnold...They can be nice. As nice as a Pharisee. Jesus required more than that, though. Jesus said to be kind to your enemies. To do good to those who curse you and not just show kindness to those who can repay you.
I think you are right. Barry Barkley and these other men DO "lead by example". The example is that of the pharisee. They teach phariseeism rather than the example of Jesus.
It saddens me to have to say that. I have known these men and looked to some of them as my examples. I THOUGHT they were Godly men. I followed their examples and saw what it was doing to me. I could get favour from them by being like them...it is a dreadful place to be in. It is soul destroying.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 26, 2013 21:27:57 GMT -5
Just to add a little balance. The workers do not directly solicit money. Whether or not that is a virtue is a matter of debate. Of course they feel that it is the absence of asking for money that distinguishes them from the salaried minister and maintains their "living by faith" status. The downside of that formula is that, as sacerdotal points out, the big letter writers get more money, and undoubtedly the more outgoing, popular workers also get more money. Workers of a higher status will also get more money, ie the overseer, the convention organizer, the brother worker (vs sister worker), as well as the worker with a large, well-off professing family behind them.There is nothing particularly virtuous or fair in that. I always thought that the continual preaching that the workers don't ask for money was a subtle way of asking for money. Not really, it's one of their "competitive advantages". In other words, it is used to differentiate themselves from other preachers. It's a bit like being a car salesman and who extolls the virtues of the car that consumes less fuel in order to persuade someone to buy it. The reason I don't see a conspiracy as a money-collection device is that it is not preached "continuously". In fact, I don't hear it much anymore, but then maybe our workers have lots of money! The poverty status was a big feature in the preaching when I was growing up, but that was a long time ago now. That said, I do know of some cases where money was solicited indirectly, but I would suggest that applies to a very limited number of workers, and perhaps in limited circumstances. For most workers, there is never a hint of money one way or another.
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Post by ts on Apr 27, 2013 19:29:24 GMT -5
I always thought that the continual preaching that the workers don't ask for money was a subtle way of asking for money. Not really, it's one of their "competitive advantages". In other words, it is used to differentiate themselves from other preachers. It's a bit like being a car salesman and who extolls the virtues of the car that consumes less fuel in order to persuade someone to buy it. The reason I don't see a conspiracy as a money-collection device is that it is not preached "continuously". In fact, I don't hear it much anymore, but then maybe our workers have lots of money! The poverty status was a big feature in the preaching when I was growing up, but that was a long time ago now. That said, I do know of some cases where money was solicited indirectly, but I would suggest that applies to a very limited number of workers, and perhaps in limited circumstances. For most workers, there is never a hint of money one way or another. If all the friends are well trained and give before they are "asked", then the workers do not have to speak about it. The point is, just because there is no plate passed around does not mean there is no pressure to give. Just because there is a plate passed around does not mean that there IS pressure to give. Both groups(Workers and "outside" preachers) need money to live. Many Workers have an overabundance and some preachers just get by. Workers are just as prone to being greedy and manipulative in fleecing the flock as any other false prophet. Workers are just as prone to being false prophets as any other preacher. They are human. If they are not in subjection to the Holy Spirit, they will turn to the flesh and try to provide for themselves out of fear. They are either of their Heavenly Father or their father, the devil. There is no in between. That is just a worker sermon modified to include the Workers along with "the worldly preachers". I don't think I have ever heard a Worker preach it including themselves. Don't know why not.
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Post by ts on Apr 27, 2013 21:48:51 GMT -5
Does anyone know any workers who preach that there are workers who are false prophets?
I know that William Lewis said that we need not be talking about "the world" as being the Pharisees. We are the ones with the Truth. If anyone is going to be a Pharisee, it is us.
That is what he said. However, I never heard anyone be so bold as to point out any of the leaders as Pharisees and then try to do something about it.
Isn't it strange how the Workers can call "the world" false prophets for teaching and doing wrong but not themselves? They are just "human" and "the world" is false and can never be right unless they join the 2x2s.
Wouldn't it be great to tell "the world" that they can keep doing what they are doing if they would just join the 2x2s and convert from their "false" ways to "human" ways?
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 27, 2013 23:50:37 GMT -5
I remember a worker (forget his name) preaching about the two who were working in the field and one was taken and the other was left. He then stated that it could be just that way with the workers. I was just a kid, so I started thinking of all the workers I didn't like. ;D Does anyone know any workers who preach that there are workers who are false prophets? I know that William Lewis said that we need not be talking about "the world" as being the Pharisees. We are the ones with the Truth. If anyone is going to be a Pharisee, it is us. That is what he said. However, I never heard anyone be so bold as to point out any of the leaders as Pharisees and then try to do something about it. Isn't it strange how the Workers can call "the world" false prophets for teaching and doing wrong but not themselves? They are just "human" and "the world" is false and can never be right unless they join the 2x2s. Wouldn't it be great to tell "the world" that they can keep doing what they are doing if they would just join the 2x2s and convert from their "false" ways to "human" ways?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2013 23:58:55 GMT -5
I remember a worker (forget his name) preaching about the two who were working in the field and one was taken and the other was left. He then stated that it could be just that way with the workers. I was just a kid, so I started thinking of all the workers I didn't like. ;D Haha. I also remember that preaching when I was a kid and my imagination went wild too about who was going to be who!
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Post by ts on Apr 28, 2013 0:39:27 GMT -5
I remember a worker (forget his name) preaching about the two who were working in the field and one was taken and the other was left. He then stated that it could be just that way with the workers. I was just a kid, so I started thinking of all the workers I didn't like. ;D Does anyone know any workers who preach that there are workers who are false prophets? I know that William Lewis said that we need not be talking about "the world" as being the Pharisees. We are the ones with the Truth. If anyone is going to be a Pharisee, it is us. That is what he said. However, I never heard anyone be so bold as to point out any of the leaders as Pharisees and then try to do something about it. Isn't it strange how the Workers can call "the world" false prophets for teaching and doing wrong but not themselves? They are just "human" and "the world" is false and can never be right unless they join the 2x2s. Wouldn't it be great to tell "the world" that they can keep doing what they are doing if they would just join the 2x2s and convert from their "false" ways to "human" ways? Right. I can imagine that sermon. Very much in line with what I have heard. The Workers will say that not even all the friends and Workers are saved. Some have even said that half are not. They do feel that the friends and workers have better salvation statisitcs than "the world", though. While the statement brings a lot of questions, the workers are not prone to entertaining those questions. Like, if the overseer is not one of those who are saved, how did he get into that position? If he is not saved, is he then is he a false prophet? Can an overseer lead people astray if he is not saved? And, How are we to know who is and who isn't saved? They can say to not trust anyone "outside" for guidance to salvation, but they really don't have any way of helping the friends choose which workers are safe. They are on their own. The best they can do is "Leave it in God's hands even if the overseer is not saved. Remember Saul and do not lift your hand against God's anointed. If the overseer is not saved. God will handle it like he did Saul...." It is really a hopeless position the friends are in if there is unrighteousness in the leadership.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2013 8:46:08 GMT -5
TS, Do you believe that God can preserve his people no matter where they are and who is trying to lead them here on earth?
How many times were the children of Israel led astray by those on earth. Did God not always preserve a Remanent of his people who were true to him?
Do you believe he can do that today?
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Post by emy on Apr 28, 2013 11:47:17 GMT -5
Isn't that as it should be? It would be a part of trying the spirits. If you find a leader who isn't of the right spirit, then be careful of trusting him/her in anything spiritual. Since it's not our place to remove the tares, best to keep a low radar in that case.
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Post by BobWilliston on Apr 29, 2013 0:33:03 GMT -5
That's a Christian question. In the Old Testament the two nations of Israel condemned each other for worshiping incorrectly. TS, Do you believe that God can preserve his people no matter where they are and who is trying to lead them here on earth? How many times were the children of Israel led astray by those on earth. Did God not always preserve a Remanent of his people who were true to him? Do you believe he can do that today?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2013 3:08:50 GMT -5
TS, Do you believe that God can preserve his people no matter where they are and who is trying to lead them here on earth? How many times were the children of Israel led astray by those on earth. Did God not always preserve a Remanent of his people who were true to him? Do you believe he can do that today? It seems amongst the numerous hardline folks claiming Christianity, that identifying the folks that are NOT Gods people -- "the bad ones" --- is the basis of self-centered, so called 'Christianity'. To me, this whole self-centered mindset is anti-Christian. "The remenant" is part of Jewish terminology and part of the Jewish religion -- not Christianity. The 2x2 idea that one group or organization has a monopoly on Gods blessing lacks credibility in the teaching of Jesus. A major part of the account of Jesus teaching was his inclusion of people that even his disciples had been indoctrinated by their culture (and religion) to 'exclude'. His beautiful message was made equally to ALL MANKIND -- and the process of personal judgement wasn't granted as a responsibility to any of us.
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Post by kencoolidge on Apr 29, 2013 6:27:31 GMT -5
TS, Do you believe that God can preserve his people no matter where they are and who is trying to lead them here on earth? How many times were the children of Israel led astray by those on earth. Did God not always preserve a Remanent of his people who were true to him? Do you believe he can do that today? Marie/TS Forgive me for butting in but feel moved to put my 2 cents worth in. I believe God can preserve His people through the Holy Spirit wherever they are. This would include all in the body not just those who feel they have the franchise The Holy Spirit has always been at work helping, teaching, correcting and guiding Gods people. He is doing the same today and the great shepherd still leads and guides His sheep beside the still waters and into green pastures. JMT ken
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2013 6:34:14 GMT -5
Ken, I agree. What bothers me is TS will include everyone else as having the spirit but excludes the workers and friends as all being deceived. That is not true. There are friends and workers that have the spirit. That believe is as exclusive as the F/W.
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Post by kencoolidge on Apr 29, 2013 9:21:24 GMT -5
Ken, I agree. What bothers me is TS will include everyone else as having the spirit but excludes the workers and friends as all being deceived. That is not true. There are friends and workers that have the spirit. That believe is as exclusive as the F/W. I feel that TS believes the same as we do ,having many contacts in and out of the 2x2. I believe that the conclusion you have drawn may not be right. Will let TS answer for himself. ken
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Post by ts on Apr 29, 2013 11:19:21 GMT -5
Ken, I agree. What bothers me is TS will include everyone else as having the spirit but excludes the workers and friends as all being deceived. That is not true. There are friends and workers that have the spirit. That believe is as exclusive as the F/W. I don't think the Holy Spirit is absent from the meetings or each individual life of the friends and workers. I believe that they are all varying degrees of deceived and enlightened, if you will. I don't think the friends and workers are unique in this regard in the body of Christ, either. I think that there is a religious spirit in much of the Church. Because of this, people like yourself struggle to know who God really is, who the Holy Spirit really is and who Jesus really is. We struggle for identity. The group of the 2x2s is important to you. You can't have fellowship with another group of Christians. I understand that. There are many groups out there that have a religious spirit in them just like the Meetings. It is hard to know how to navigate in the Christian world when coming out of Meeting, Exclusivity doctrine. There are few if any exceptions among the Friends and Workers. If they have ever accepted the Meetings as the only truth and Way and rejected all other groups, they are going to have a struggle. Yes, the Holy Spirit CAN speak and certainly does. I believe the Spirit takes us where we are. However, in Meeting, the "leading of the Holy Spirit" only leads towards being MORE Meeting like. That is the only way the Workers have of interpreting the direction of the Holy Spirit. One major overseer recently said to a friend of mine that the Holy Spirit would NEVER lead anyone OUT of Meeting. That is simply false and is a common belief among the Workers and Friends. Marie, God preserved and lead the Children of Israel for 40 years in the wilderness until that generation died off and then He led them into the land He had promised them. They COULD have just walked right in but they were afraid of the giants and doubted God's power. They continually wanted to turn back to Egypt to their pagan roots and the "good" life. They were ALL SUPPOSED to go up the mountain with Moses but chose to send Moses up in their stead alone. They were scared. They were content with the religiousness and Baal worship offered them the religiousness that they were comfortable with. The law was good but religiousness is bad. That had no understanding or discernment. That is the place the Church in general often is, Marie. The Friends and Workers are no exception. Many who are "preserved" in Meetings are afraid to go "outside" and seek the abundance of provision, joy and contentment that others in the body of Christ are experiencing. It takes as much faith to break free of the Meetings as it did for the Children of Israel to come out of the wilderness and into the Promise Land. The fact that there is MORE to a relationship with our Father than the Meetings could EVER offer is GOOD NEWS! It is the gospel of peace. It is Wonderful!!! Does it seem strange to think that the Workers and Friends need the gospel preached to them by someone besides a Worker?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 29, 2013 11:39:15 GMT -5
TS, Thank you for clarifying your stand. You sometimes seem so angry at anything to do with the workers and the friends that it is hard to think you see good in any of them.
I know you do not mean that but that is how it sounds. Just remember that we are all still growing and experiences do change peoples vision. God has helped you see things. He can help others see things also.
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