|
Post by ts on Apr 23, 2013 11:50:27 GMT -5
I give to our pastor and our pastor gives to us. We have needs at different times. We give as we are moved. I don't know who is "ahead". I know that the Kingdom is ahead. We have a common goal and a common vision. We have as much responsibility in our area as the pastor does in his. We are taught, encouraged and empowered by our preacher. We support the work of the gospel in our area either by giving to him or other preachers/ministries. Others support our ministry as well.
I am afraid that in the Work, the Workers have gotten focused on money, whether they think so or not. I have seem more activity and reaching out in our church in the past year than I saw in my entire 12 years in the Work. And we are a very small group of, say, five or six families.
I have often wished that the workers could be a part of what we are doing. They are really missing out.
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Apr 23, 2013 12:49:24 GMT -5
By Jack Carroll - We Represent a Fellowship - 1947:
There were no hireling shepherds in the Fold of God in Jesus' day. In fact this question of hire, pay or salary could never enter into the mind or heart of any true under shepherd in the Fold of God. There were no hireling preachers then.
There are no hireling preachers now in this Fold of God. As I have said, there are fifty at least under shepherds in this meeting this morning, and the question of pay, or hire, or earthly reward for their labours in shepherding never has, and never can, enter into their minds as they seek to follow in the footsteps of the Good Shepherd, who laid down His life and gave it fully and utterly in order to prove His love.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2013 12:52:05 GMT -5
By Jack Carroll - We Represent a Fellowship - 1947: There were no hireling shepherds in the Fold of God in Jesus' day. In fact this question of hire, pay or salary could never enter into the mind or heart of any true under shepherd in the Fold of God. There were no hireling preachers then. There are no hireling preachers now in this Fold of God. As I have said, there are fifty at least under shepherds in this meeting this morning, and the question of pay, or hire, or earthly reward for their labours in shepherding never has, and never can, enter into their minds as they seek to follow in the footsteps of the Good Shepherd, who laid down His life and gave it fully and utterly in order to prove His love. I presume he believed what he said, which is what happens when you study scripture to confirm what you already believe it to mean. Been there, done that. thx for posting.
|
|
|
Post by Happy Feet on Apr 23, 2013 16:51:13 GMT -5
I have not been to a church that asks for money either, and i have been to a lot of churches in different towns since leaving meetings.
I also have not seen collection plates - all the churches I have been to use a bag where no one sees what is put into the bag.
Very few people put money into the bag anyway these days. Most people pay over the internet.
One of things I liked when I started going to churches was the openness of collections.
In meetings often professing people are asked to do certain work and then they pay you but then of course you do cannot accept that money. How many people who do work on the convention grounds then accept being paid for it.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Apr 23, 2013 17:47:40 GMT -5
I know that that is how it is SUPPOSED to work, Nathan. I know for a fact that that is not the way that it DID work. I know that God will take care of it. However, I do find it remarkable that there is not one worker who had a word of knowledge on the matter like Peter did. They could not see that this man was dishonest and a liar. I saw it from being his companion. He was elevated to overseer. I saw how he worked a crowd of people and got everyone enamoured with him. He was good at it. Faultless. I saw him carelessly and intentionally offend the poor and weak for his own glory. NO worker dared stand up to him. I did, but it really cost me and he made sure that it did cost me. It cost me my health. It was very stressful and disconcerting to see what he was doing to the Friends. Nathan, this guy did NOT start with $300 at the beginning of the year. NO overseer does. Even when this guy lost his overseer position, his inheritance went with him. He stayed in the work. He fit the mold of 'hireling" but remained in the work. the reason is because he preached the exclusivity of the 2x2s and the 2x2 ministry. Those are the only qualifications he needed to continue in the Work. You bring up a good point. I have said it before. The exclusivity doctrine causes the workers to lose spiritual discernment. They excuse things they should not because a person believes in the form. I am for exclusivity doctrine 110%. I hope and pray the overseers/workers never change that... Jesus Truth and Way.... apostolic ministry, the church met in the homes for the Eucharists. Jesus way is the ONLY way. The Roman Catholic Church was RIGHT when they claim they're the ONLY Unviversal Church. Unfornately, they went astrayed in the 3rd century and claimed their group/Rome is the ONLY true church. Paul's own concerts didn't agree with Romans pagan teachings, so they were persecuted and fled to the Piedmont Valley Waldensian/Switzerland mountain/France for thousands of years. They held on to Jesus and the apostolic church teachings for 1800 yrs...
Many groups within the Roman Catholic Church have broken away in the 15-18th century= Reformation churches and others broke off from them=30,000 plus Protestant Churches today.I am for exclusivity 110% also, Nathan. When the 2x2s fix their problems, I have a feeling I will be more in agreement with their doctrine. I don't care if they meet in homes or on a park bench to take the bread and wine. I don't care if they take it with a meal or a picnic or in a solemn gathering. So long as they remember Jesus as oft as they do it. I don't mind if they are getting revelations that my church isn't and doing work that we can't or aren't called to do in our part of the body. The point in this thread is that the Workers think that they are not paid and that Workers who are greedy for money and power and work their way to the top are somehow not "hirelings" and other preachers who do NOT do that and are not 2x2s ARE, somehow, hirelings. What I am saying about exclusivity, Nathan, is that it tends to remove a person's spiritual discernment when they pursue the form and method as exclusivity markers rather than Jesus.
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Apr 23, 2013 17:51:26 GMT -5
WHen we attended a church regularly, I mailed in our donation once a month.
I've been to churches where they had a donation drop box in the foyer and do not take up a collection in the service. I much prefer this method.
I went to a church for nearly a year where the only mention of money was when it happened to be in the scripture text for that sermon which was a part of an expository study. Expository preachers take a book at a time, and goes thru it verse by verse...when those verses are about money is the only time they teach about it. This church also had a receptacle for donations outside of the sanctuary where the service was held.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Apr 23, 2013 17:53:05 GMT -5
By Jack Carroll - We Represent a Fellowship - 1947: There were no hireling shepherds in the Fold of God in Jesus' day. In fact this question of hire, pay or salary could never enter into the mind or heart of any true under shepherd in the Fold of God. There were no hireling preachers then. There are no hireling preachers now in this Fold of God. As I have said, there are fifty at least under shepherds in this meeting this morning, and the question of pay, or hire, or earthly reward for their labours in shepherding never has, and never can, enter into their minds as they seek to follow in the footsteps of the Good Shepherd, who laid down His life and gave it fully and utterly in order to prove His love. I presume he believed what he said, which is what happens when you study scripture to confirm what you already believe it to mean. Been there, done that. thx for posting. Well said. Judas would be a good example of a hireling.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Apr 23, 2013 18:30:53 GMT -5
I am for exclusivity 110% also, Nathan. When the 2x2s fix their problems, I have a feeling I will be more in agreement with their doctrine. I don't care if they meet in homes or on a park bench to take the bread and wine. I don't care if they take it with a meal or a picnic or in a solemn gathering. So long as they remember Jesus as oft as they do it. I don't mind if they are getting revelations that my church isn't and doing work that we can't or aren't called to do in our part of the body. The point in this thread is that the Workers think that they are not paid and that Workers who are greedy for money and power and work their way to the top are somehow not "hirelings" and other preachers who do NOT do that and are not 2x2s ARE, somehow, hirelings. What I am saying about exclusivity, Nathan, is that it tends to remove a person's spiritual discernment when they pursue the form and method as exclusivity markers rather than Jesus. Exclusivity is to focus on Jesus the Way, the Truth and Life .... all that He has taught/lived/and died for. Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
Yes, I agree.... The past workers have made some mistakes, I hope the current worker will learn NOT to repeat it. Fixed many mistakes as they can like CSA.
Meanwhile...while they are learning to fix things while maintaining a lot of legalistic doctrine and isolating themselves from the rest of the body of Christ, others are leaving the meetings to find out the truth and being set free. The Workers SHOULD have had the discernment LONG ago to correct the problems and they clearly didn't. They SHOULD presently have discernment but they clearly don't. The truth of the matter is that they need the gospel preached to them and they need the humility to accept the gospel from God's true servants who happen to be "outside". The way is open for them to accept, if they want to. They are about as inclined to do so as the pharisees were. Some do, though.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Apr 23, 2013 19:47:58 GMT -5
Meanwhile...while they are learning to fix things while maintaining a lot of legalistic doctrine and isolating themselves from the rest of the body of Christ, others are leaving the meetings to find out the truth and being set free. The Workers SHOULD have had the discernment LONG ago to correct the problems and they clearly didn't. They SHOULD presently have discernment but they clearly don't. The truth of the matter is that they need the gospel preached to them and they need the humility to accept the gospel from God's true servants who happen to be "outside". The way is open for them to accept, if they want to. They are about as inclined to do so as the pharisees were. Some do, though. John wrote in I John 4:1 4 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
The body of Christ in the world today is a spastic body I would be VERY care which body you attach yourself to/with. Most of the early workers LEFT the spastic body of Christ themselves and some had decided to go back.
Jesus warned about this in Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Right. The 2x2s read everything filtered through their doctrine. "Lawlessness" to them means believing in the name of Jesus but not believing that he required everyone believing in him to meet in homes and his ministry to be unmarried, homeless and basically do everything just like the workers do....Which, by the way, is contrary to the mostly married ministry of Jesus' day...but who is keeping track of that? I know all the screeds of stuff you have in support of the 2x2s. I used to believe it and would have at one time agreed with you. Just goes to show that there is hope for anyone to change. ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png)
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Apr 23, 2013 19:56:13 GMT -5
I am for exclusivity 110% also, Nathan. When the 2x2s fix their problems, I have a feeling I will be more in agreement with their doctrine. I don't care if they meet in homes or on a park bench to take the bread and wine. I don't care if they take it with a meal or a picnic or in a solemn gathering. So long as they remember Jesus as oft as they do it. I don't mind if they are getting revelations that my church isn't and doing work that we can't or aren't called to do in our part of the body. The point in this thread is that the Workers think that they are not paid and that Workers who are greedy for money and power and work their way to the top are somehow not "hirelings" and other preachers who do NOT do that and are not 2x2s ARE, somehow, hirelings. What I am saying about exclusivity, Nathan, is that it tends to remove a person's spiritual discernment when they pursue the form and method as exclusivity markers rather than Jesus. Exclusivity is to focus on Jesus the Way, the Truth and Life .... all that He has taught/lived/and died for. Matthew 28:18-20 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.
Yes, I agree.... The past workers have made some mistakes, I hope the current worker will learn NOT to repeat or continue doing it. Fixed many mistakes as they can like CSA. Jesus is NOT God. Making it clear that Jesus is NOT God the Father but the Son. Divorce/remarriage Can't take parts in sharing testimonies and emblems. Let them examine themselves and asking God for forgiveness.
Nathan, You are right on in saying you believe in exclusivity 110%...and that is in Jesus.. Thanks for that.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Apr 23, 2013 21:11:25 GMT -5
Right. The 2x2s read everything filtered through their doctrine. "Lawlessness" to them means believing in the name of Jesus but not believing that he required everyone believing in him to meet in homes and his ministry to be unmarried, homeless and basically do everything just like the workers do....Which, by the way, is contrary to the mostly married ministry of Jesus' day...but who is keeping track of that? I know all the screeds of stuff you have in support of the 2x2s. I used to believe it and would have at one time agreed with you. Just goes to show that there is hope for anyone to change. ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png) ;D. It wasn't only the 2x2 doctrines. The Waldensians Paul's own followers had practiced many similiar doctrines for 1800 yrs like the 2x2s. Or the 2x2 had many similiar beliefs of the believers in the valley of Piedmont of Northern Italy. Well, we don't associate with those folks anymore because they still believe in black stockings and standing up in meeting to speak even if there are only two people in the meeting. Them folks is CRAZY!!! How 'bout we just be led by the Holy Spirit and sit quietly and listen and see what happens. Do you think the Holy Spirit is going to tell everyone in the world to look up a Worker and go to 2x2 meetings or go out and heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons and preach the good news of Jesus' blood saving us from sin to all the world?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2013 21:23:55 GMT -5
By Jack Carroll - We Represent a Fellowship - 1947: There were no hireling shepherds in the Fold of God in Jesus' day. In fact this question of hire, pay or salary could never enter into the mind or heart of any true under shepherd in the Fold of God. There were no hireling preachers then. There are no hireling preachers now in this Fold of God. As I have said, there are fifty at least under shepherds in this meeting this morning, and the question of pay, or hire, or earthly reward for their labours in shepherding never has, and never can, enter into their minds as they seek to follow in the footsteps of the Good Shepherd, who laid down His life and gave it fully and utterly in order to prove His love. Aha, I have long been curious where the term "under shepherds" came from: Jack Carroll. Coming up with a non-hireling but non-shepherd term for the workers was probably gnarly problem for the workers. They couldn't admit to being hirelings, but they couldn't outright take the place of Christ the true shepherd. Enter the "under shepherd", a special group of people who are not hirelings, but are subordinate shepherds. A pretty brilliant idea. The development of this idea bears a lot of similarity to the way the trinity was invented where they couldn't have Jesus as a man, but he could exactly be God or there would be multiple Gods, hence the trinity idea to solve that gnarly little problem.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Apr 23, 2013 21:31:06 GMT -5
I don't understand. I thought the Workers always considered themselves to be shepherds.
Of course, "shepherd" and "pastor" are one in the same. I have never heard this idea of Workers being "undershepherds". At least, I have never heard it stressed and doctinized.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2013 21:31:29 GMT -5
i reckon jesus got a salary for his work adn probably knocked off at 5pm adn didn't work on weekends unless people paid him double time and a half he probably looked forward to getting his superannuation too and getting out of the religion business completely
|
|
|
Post by ts on Apr 23, 2013 21:35:11 GMT -5
So, Nathan, how are the Workers going to get rid of those other Workers who are dishonest, greedy and taking money and being immoral...but are overseers? Are they going to call a spade a spade like they do "worldly" preachers and just keep away from them? Or are they going to handle it the same ol' way and just let it alone and "let God handle it" until these Workers raise up the NEXT generation of dishonest Workers?
You know that is how the last generation duplicated itself and increased.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Apr 23, 2013 21:36:56 GMT -5
i reckon jesus got a salary for his work adn probably knocked off at 5pm adn didn't work on weekends unless people paid him double time and a half he probably looked forward to getting his superannuation too and getting out of the religion business completely I wonder if there are Workers who do not follow Jesus' model but still are kept in the Work. I wonder if there are non Workers who are following Jesus' model but are NOT considered God's servants by the Workers.
|
|
|
Post by emy on Apr 23, 2013 21:46:51 GMT -5
So, Nathan, how are the Workers going to get rid of those other Workers who are dishonest, greedy and taking money and being immoral...but are overseers? ... How about you just send us "innies" at TMB a list of those names and we will do our best to take care of it.
|
|
|
Post by jondough on Apr 23, 2013 21:59:13 GMT -5
So, Nathan, how are the Workers going to get rid of those other Workers who are dishonest, greedy and taking money and being immoral...but are overseers? ... How about you just send us "innies" at TMB a list of those names and we will do our best to take care of it. Read the parable of the Tares and the Wheat. its not up to us to pull the Tares lest we pull up a wheat with it.... (Emy, I know you were being facetious ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) ).
|
|
|
Post by ts on Apr 23, 2013 22:09:17 GMT -5
So, Nathan, how are the Workers going to get rid of those other Workers who are dishonest, greedy and taking money and being immoral...but are overseers? ... How about you just send us "innies" at TMB a list of those names and we will do our best to take care of it. The OP has to do comparing how Workers and other preachers receive money. I don't expect that Innies will do anything. If they could, they would have already. Most do not even see that Workers are just like "worldly" preachers and "worldly" preachers are just like Workers. They are HUMANS. Innies do see problems. They DO NOT see Workers as false prophets. They see them as "God's true servants with problems". However, a "worldly" preacher with the same problem is a false prophet. In fact, a "worldly" preacher that is NOT greedy or immoral and teaches sound doctrine that bears fruit in himself and his congregants is STILL considered a false teacher by most of the 2x2s and ALL the workers. And you really don't want a list, do you?
|
|
|
Post by ts on Apr 23, 2013 22:10:44 GMT -5
How about you just send us "innies" at TMB a list of those names and we will do our best to take care of it. Read the parable of the Tares and the Wheat. its not up to us to pull the Tares lest we pull up a wheat with it.... (Emy, I know you were being facetious ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) ). Are there really tares in the Work? Is there wheat outside of Meeting, too?
|
|
|
Post by ts on Apr 23, 2013 23:18:44 GMT -5
The Workers talk about tares and wheat like they know the difference between the two. Somehow they can only detect the tares that are "outside" the meetings. In the parable, the workmen KNEW the difference. Are there any of the friends and workers who can identify tares among the workers yet choose to leave them there rather than uproot them?
And what will happen if there is a known greedy overseer or child molester or otherwise immoral worker? Will the workers stand up against the law and tell the judge that they will not do anything to an abuser in the Work because they would rather face imprisonment than go against scripture?
|
|
|
Post by ts on Apr 23, 2013 23:59:32 GMT -5
So, Nathan, how are the Workers going to get rid of those other Workers who are dishonest, greedy and taking money and being immoral...but are overseers? Are they going to call a spade a spade like they do "worldly" preachers and just keep away from them? Or are they going to handle it the same ol' way and just let it alone and "let God handle it" until these Workers raise up the NEXT generation of dishonest Workers? You know that is how the last generation duplicated itself and increased. Well, they must do like they did with William Irvine, Ira H.....Get a few overseers together and Have a meeting and tell him/them "You're FIRE!" ;DIsn't that like removing the tares before the end of time? Why is it that you get instances like Leslie White having multiple offenses with very unbecoming conversations and other immoral indications and Barry Barkley leaving it alone for years doing nothing? That is, up until there is an illegal event reported. Why not remove Barry Barkley. Haven't you read the account where he heard but did not respond at all to LW's self incrimination? It was HUGE and BB just let it glide on by. It sounds like the workers are allowed to remove the tares if a worker is preaching something they don't agree with or if a worker does something against the law and gets caught. I don't see that in the parable, though. The workers just use that parable as an excuse for inaction when it looks like action may cost them something. In other words,the hirelings use that parable to excuse themselves from protecting the sheep and to keep their buddies in the Work.
|
|
|
Post by Greg on Apr 24, 2013 0:11:58 GMT -5
Well, they must do like they did with William Irvine, Ira H.....Get a few overseers together and Have a meeting and tell him/them "You're FIRE!" ;D Isn't that like removing the tares before the end of time? Why is it that you get instances like Leslie White having multiple offenses with very unbecoming conversations and other immoral indications and Barry Barkley leaving it alone for years doing nothing? That is, up until there is an illegal event reported. Why not remove Barry Barkley. Haven't you read the account where he heard but did not respond at all to LW's self incrimination? It was HUGE and BB just let it glide on by. It sounds like the workers are allowed to remove the tares if a worker is preaching something they don't agree with or if a worker does something against the law and gets caught. I don't see that in the parable, though. The workers just use that parable as an excuse for inaction when it looks like action may cost them something. In other words,the hirelings use that parable to excuse themselves from protecting the sheep and to keep their buddies in the Work. I think the tare parable is removing someone from fellowship. Removing someone from the work likely is something else. Seems parables only go so far in application.
|
|
|
Post by ts on Apr 24, 2013 0:35:03 GMT -5
Isn't that like removing the tares before the end of time? Why is it that you get instances like Leslie White having multiple offenses with very unbecoming conversations and other immoral indications and Barry Barkley leaving it alone for years doing nothing? That is, up until there is an illegal event reported. Why not remove Barry Barkley. Haven't you read the account where he heard but did not respond at all to LW's self incrimination? It was HUGE and BB just let it glide on by. It sounds like the workers are allowed to remove the tares if a worker is preaching something they don't agree with or if a worker does something against the law and gets caught. I don't see that in the parable, though. The workers just use that parable as an excuse for inaction when it looks like action may cost them something. In other words,the hirelings use that parable to excuse themselves from protecting the sheep and to keep their buddies in the Work. I think the tare parable is removing someone from fellowship. Removing someone from the work likely is something else. Seems parables only go so far in application. Perhaps it is time that the Workers acknowledge that they have no idea how to rightfully divide and apply that parable. I have heard them use the parable in reference to removing workers. Besides that, the Workers DO remove people from fellowship. It seems arbitrary how they apply that parable.
|
|
|
Post by Greg on Apr 24, 2013 8:17:27 GMT -5
I think the tare parable is removing someone from fellowship. Removing someone from the work likely is something else. Seems parables only go so far in application. Perhaps it is time that the Workers acknowledge that they have no idea how to rightfully divide and apply that parable. I have heard them use the parable in reference to removing workers. Besides that, the Workers DO remove people from fellowship. It seems arbitrary how they apply that parable. It seems arbitrary how they apply that parable. - The benefit of no set doctrine, practice. Not that it would matter, I suppose.
|
|
|
Post by rational on Apr 24, 2013 8:46:33 GMT -5
In a personal account it would have generated income and could have been the nexus for taxation. And just the same, in a Trust, it would have been taxable as he took distributions. The difference would be who was responsible for the taxes. For a revocable trust the grantor is responsible for the taxes. For an irrevocable trusts where the grantor retains any control of the assets the grantor is responsible for the taxes. For an irrevocable trusts where the grantor does not have any control of the assets, the taxes on any income are paid under the tax identification number of the trust. Upon the death of the grantor the trust becomes irrevocable and taxing the distribution of a trust is a whole other set of issues but is usually the responsibility of the beneficiary.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 24, 2013 10:00:48 GMT -5
A major portion of the income 'worldly preachers' need are for food and a place to live --- These major things are things that workers regard as their right and simply 'take' --- The price of refusing them if they ask to come and live your home, is the diagnosis 'losing out' -- so in reality is a threat. How that they can construe this method of covering living costs as 'more righteous' than sharing the cost openly as is done in most other groups, is only the result of '2x2 illusion'!!!
|
|
terry
Senior Member
![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png) ![*](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/stars/star.png)
Posts: 328
|
Post by terry on Apr 24, 2013 11:21:54 GMT -5
Just to add a little balance. The workers do not directly solicit money. Whether or not that is a virtue is a matter of debate. Of course they feel that it is the absence of asking for money that distinguishes them from the salaried minister and maintains their "living by faith" status. The downside of that formula is that, as sacerdotal points out, the big letter writers get more money, and undoubtedly the more outgoing, popular workers also get more money. Workers of a higher status will also get more money, ie the overseer, the convention organizer, the brother worker (vs sister worker), as well as the worker with a large, well-off professing family behind them.There is nothing particularly virtuous or fair in that. I always thought that the continual preaching that the workers don't ask for money was a subtle way of asking for money.
|
|