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Post by ts on Mar 31, 2013 22:41:32 GMT -5
No. I am not talking about ALL atheists. I am just suggesting that there are just as many sociopathic atheists as those you associate with being Christians. There are people in both groups only interested in themselves who are intelligent and manipulative and have a selfish agenda. I am eliminating them from the discussion for the sake of keeping the discussion from going to extremes in a straw man kind of way. ts, It is also about time that we define "sociopath." Do you want to take try at defining what you mean by "sociopathic"?Not really. I am using it as an example. Jim Jones was likely a sociopath. Andrea Yates was probably delusional...or something like that. Both seemed to be claiming to talk to God. There are Christians who claim to be talking to God and hearing His voice who are clearly not delusional or mentally ill in any way but are very sound individuals who are close to their Creator and who have a profound and caring interest in other people's souls. They would truly be classified as caring and loving people by most anyone(not just folks who are brainwashed in their congregations). I just seems like there is an effort to lump these caring and loving people in with very disturbed people and I think that is irresponsible and even obtuse. It is a way of getting around considering their testimony of God's work in their lives and give credence to the existence of God.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 31, 2013 23:21:48 GMT -5
ts, It is also about time that we define "sociopath." Do you want to take try at defining what you mean by "sociopathic"? Not really. I am using it as an example. Jim Jones was likely a sociopath. Andrea Yates was probably delusional...or something like that. Both seemed to be claiming to talk to God. There are Christians who claim to be talking to God and hearing His voice who are clearly not delusional or mentally ill in any way but are very sound individuals who are close to their Creator and who have a profound and caring interest in other people's souls. They would truly be classified as caring and loving people by most anyone(not just folks who are brainwashed in their congregations). I just seems like there is an effort to lump these caring and loving people in with very disturbed people and I think that is irresponsible and even obtuse. It is a way of getting around considering their testimony of God's work in their lives and give credence to the existence of God. Yes really- since it was you who used the word "sciopathic" not only in relationship with Jim Jones abut also with "atheist" I believe you owe us at least an understanding of what you mean by the word.
Now the word "sociopath" has a meaning, in relationship to a their actions & it is seeming more likely a mental state that hasn't been fully understood yet, but you will be able to find the current definition and since you have used it now at least a couple of times & once in relationship to we atheists, I do believe that you should tell us what you mean by the word, "sociopath."
I have never "lumped" all Christians together.
There are many caring & loving Christians, one of which was my husband who truly put his time and efforts toward helping all people of the world, not just toward people of the "Truth" or other Christians, but all of his fellow beings without any regard to their station in life, their ethnicity, their color, or any other definition that anyone might make.
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Post by ts on Mar 31, 2013 23:48:23 GMT -5
Not really. I am using it as an example. Jim Jones was likely a sociopath. Andrea Yates was probably delusional...or something like that. Both seemed to be claiming to talk to God. There are Christians who claim to be talking to God and hearing His voice who are clearly not delusional or mentally ill in any way but are very sound individuals who are close to their Creator and who have a profound and caring interest in other people's souls. They would truly be classified as caring and loving people by most anyone(not just folks who are brainwashed in their congregations). I just seems like there is an effort to lump these caring and loving people in with very disturbed people and I think that is irresponsible and even obtuse. It is a way of getting around considering their testimony of God's work in their lives and give credence to the existence of God. Yes really- since it was you who used the word "sciopathic" not only in relationship with Jim Jones abut also with "atheist" I believe you owe us at least an understanding of what you mean by the word.
Now the word "sociopath" has a meaning, in relationship to a their actions & it is seeming more likely a mental state that hasn't been fully understood yet, but you will be able to find the current definition and since you have used it now at least a couple of times & once in relationship to we atheists, I do believe that you should tell us what you mean by the word, "sociopath."
I have never "lumped" all Christians together.
There are many caring & loving Christians, one of which was my husband who truly put his time and efforts toward helping all people of the world, not just toward people of the "Truth" or other Christians, but all of his fellow beings without any regard to their station in life, their ethnicity, their color, or any other definition that anyone might make.
I am not calling all atheists sociopaths. I am saying that there are those who claim to hear the voice of God who are sociopaths and simply being manipulative. I am also saying that there are probably just as many evil minded, sociopathic atheists. There are plenty of sane, rational Christians to use as examples in this discussion without pulling from the extremes. The question, as I understand it, is "Are Christians deluded or schizophrenic if they hear the voice of God?" I say that there are plenty of Christians who do hear God and are credible witnesses. It seems like there are some who would like to dismiss their witness of the supernatural and the "hearing voices" argument and comparing them to rogue, disturbed individuals is a way of discrediting them.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 1, 2013 2:30:06 GMT -5
Yes really- since it was you who used the word "sciopathic" not only in relationship with Jim Jones abut also with "atheist" I believe you owe us at least an understanding of what you mean by the word.
Now the word "sociopath" has a meaning, in relationship to a their actions & it is seeming more likely a mental state that hasn't been fully understood yet, but you will be able to find the current definition and since you have used it now at least a couple of times & once in relationship to we atheists, I do believe that you should tell us what you mean by the word, "sociopath."
I have never "lumped" all Christians together.
There are many caring & loving Christians, one of which was my husband who truly put his time and efforts toward helping all people of the world, not just toward people of the "Truth" or other Christians, but all of his fellow beings without any regard to their station in life, their ethnicity, their color, or any other definition that anyone might make.
I am not calling all atheists sociopaths. I am saying that there are those who claim to hear the voice of God who are sociopaths and simply being manipulative. I am also saying that there are probably just as many evil minded, sociopathic atheists. There are plenty of sane, rational Christians to use as examples in this discussion without pulling from the extremes. The question, as I understand it, is "Are Christians deluded or schizophrenic if they hear the voice of God?" I say that there are plenty of Christians who do hear God and are credible witnesses. It seems like there are some who would like to dismiss their witness of the supernatural and the "hearing voices" argument and comparing them to rogue, disturbed individuals is a way of discrediting them. That still hasn't given us your definition of "sociopathic."
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 1, 2013 4:29:13 GMT -5
Psychopaths are usually people with shallow emotions, lack of empathy etc and often found in criminals. Nothing to do with being delusional or hearing God's voice. Psychopathy is a personality disorder as opposed to a mental disorder such as schizophrenia.
Psychopathy (/saɪˈkɒpəèi/[1][2] is a personality disorder that has been variously characterized by shallow emotions (including reduced fear, a lack of empathy, and stress tolerance), coldheartedness, egocentricity, superficial charm, manipulativeness, irresponsibility, impulsivity, criminality, antisocial behavior, a lack of remorse, and a parasitic lifestyle. However, there is no consensus about the symptom criteria and there are ongoing debates regarding issues such as essential features, causes, and the possibility of treatment
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Post by Grant on Apr 1, 2013 4:35:17 GMT -5
Hearing God's voice is normal in certain circumstances and if a person has a religious belief. It is not a mental disorder to hear God's voice as it is a fact that God speaks to certain individuals but what he says needs to line up with scripture. God is real whether you believe in him or not so the fact that God speaks is real too. Just because you don't believe in him doesn't mean he does not exist. Just look at creation and see he exists or do you think everything just happened at random and all came together. Look at the eye, or the ear, or the human body and tell me it just happened. Each little detail of the eye didn't just happen by chance, it had a master designer behind it which can only be called God.
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Post by kencoolidge on Apr 1, 2013 6:18:34 GMT -5
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Post by rational on Apr 1, 2013 7:14:34 GMT -5
Not trying to prove anything. Just musing. It just seemed like, from the OP, that rational was lumping all Christians into the same category as someone like Jim Jones or the lady who was "hearing God's voice" and killed her children. You do know that I was not the original poster and have never made a statement like the subject line of that post. On the other hand, all of the people you mentioned do claim to be christians. It may not be how you classify them but then you may not qualify as a christian to some of them either. Probably somewhat like being a christian 400 years ago and learning that the earth is not the center of the universe. Time to rethink your world-view. If they are having auditory hallucinations they are abnormal. Whether they are dangerous or not is really not a factor.
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Post by rational on Apr 1, 2013 7:20:19 GMT -5
There are Christians who claim to be talking to God and hearing His voice who are clearly not delusional or mentally ill in any way but are very sound individuals who are close to their Creator and who have a profound and caring interest in other people's souls. They would truly be classified as caring and loving people by most anyone(not just folks who are brainwashed in their congregations). Their behavior and beliefs are not at issue. Is they are having hallucinations that are abnormal. Hearing sounds, no matter the believed source, that do not exist is not normal. The common factor in the grouping is that they all claim to hear the voice of some paranormal being. Nope. It is a simple statement regarding some humans and their perception of non-existent sounds.
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Post by rational on Apr 1, 2013 8:13:15 GMT -5
Hearing God's voice is normal in certain circumstances and if a person has a religious belief. It is not a mental disorder to hear God's voice as it is a fact that God speaks to certain individuals but what he says needs to line up with scripture. For most of this discussion we have been talking about auditory hallucinations. People stating they are hearing the audible voice of god speaking to them. As mentioned in other posts, if someone believes god is communicating with them in some other way that is a matter of their belief and unless they produce some data/facts regarding that phenomenon I would consider it a belief. Audible sound, on the other hand, is a sequence of pressure waves that moves through a medium and, when it strikes the tympanic membrane which eventually stimulates the brain and humans sense that as sound. Sound is difficult to hide. When people say they are hearing voices that no one else can hear and when no instrument is able to detect those pressure waves the is having an auditory hallucination and that is abnormal. You believe this to be true but until you can provide some proof there are people who simply do not believe as you do. Of course, if you could demonstrate god speaking that would certainly be a step in the direction of proving that god does exist. Just because you believe in him doesn't mean he does exist. You are making the claim but cannot deliver any logical or material proof.I believe that all of these things did happen according to the laws of nature. They didn't come together but developed in an explainable way. A little serious study of the eye. for example, would bring to light that the design is not all that intelligent. You would need to look beyond christian sites to get a true biological picture. And as far as the development - there is a clear developmental path from the photo sensitive eye-spots on flat worms to the fully functioning eyes of chicken or shrimp. Chicken have superior color vision when compared to humans and shrimp have more sophisticated eyes than humans. I am not saying that the eye is not a good organ for vision but people at Northweastern have developed a mechanical eye that preforms as well as a human eye, is only the size of a nickle and also features a 3.5X zoom. I think one of the concepts you are promoting here is irreducible complexity. It, and possibilities of eye development is explained: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexityFor detail regarding evolution of the eye: www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=evolution-of-the-eye
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Post by sacerdotal on Apr 1, 2013 8:50:53 GMT -5
Hearing God's voice is normal in certain circumstances and if a person has a religious belief. It is not a mental disorder to hear God's voice as it is a fact that God speaks to certain individuals but what he says needs to line up with scripture. For most of this discussion we have been talking about auditory hallucinations. People stating they are hearing the audible voice of god speaking to them. As mentioned in other posts, if someone believes god is communicating with them in some other way that is a matter of their belief and unless they produce some data/facts regarding that phenomenon I would consider it a belief. Audible sound, on the other hand, is a sequence of pressure waves that moves through a medium and, when it strikes the tympanic membrane which eventually stimulates the brain and humans sense that as sound. Sound is difficult to hide. When people say they are hearing voices that no one else can hear and when no instrument is able to detect those pressure waves the is having an auditory hallucination and that is abnormal. You believe this to be true but until you can provide some proof there are people who simply do not believe as you do. Of course, if you could demonstrate god speaking that would certainly be a step in the direction of proving that god does exist. Just because you believe in him doesn't mean he does exist. You are making the claim but cannot deliver any logical or material proof.I believe that all of these things did happen according to the laws of nature. They didn't come together but developed in an explainable way. A little serious study of the eye. for example, would bring to light that the design is not all that intelligent. You would need to look beyond christian sites to get a true biological picture. And as far as the development - there is a clear developmental path from the photo sensitive eye-spots on flat worms to the fully functioning eyes of chicken or shrimp. Chicken have superior color vision when compared to humans and shrimp have more sophisticated eyes than humans. I am not saying that the eye is not a good organ for vision but people at Northweastern have developed a mechanical eye that preforms as well as a human eye, is only the size of a nickle and also features a 3.5X zoom. I think one of the concepts you are promoting here is irreducible complexity. It, and possibilities of eye development is explained: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexityFor detail regarding evolution of the eye: www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=evolution-of-the-eyeI would suggest to my Christian brethren not to go down the route of using science to prove God. It can't be done. God cannot be proven. And neither can His existence be dispproved. It is enough to believe in God and to prove His existence real in one's own life and to remember the proverb- "the fool has said in his heart, there is no God." Trying to prove the existence of God is impossible and a fool's errand. Trying to disprove the existence of God, is also impossible. It is only by faith we walk, and not by sight.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2013 9:30:33 GMT -5
That's right SD. God is a matter of faith, not a matter of fact.
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Post by quizzer on Apr 1, 2013 10:43:13 GMT -5
An atheist would likely NOT attribute a voice to the voice of God. However, we are not talking about an atheist. We are talking about a delusional atheist. The question is, why is it impossible for a delusional atheist to hear a voice and attribute it to God? If this delusion is a mental illness, you would find proportionally just as many atheists experiencing it as Christians. If an atheist DOES hear God's voice and KNOWS it is God's voice, you might well expect him to lose his atheist membership and join the Christians. The atheists should be glad for that because it would keep their gene pool clean. The Christians would be glad because they would have an otherwise rational convert except for the fact that he is hearing God's voice, which is not a problem for many Christians. It is a win win situation. I wonder if you have ever really been listening to why I'm an atheist.
It has nothing to do with my "gene" pool! ;DYou and Gene are having pool parties, dmmichgood?
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Post by ts on Apr 1, 2013 10:47:26 GMT -5
Not trying to prove anything. Just musing. It just seemed like, from the OP, that rational was lumping all Christians into the same category as someone like Jim Jones or the lady who was "hearing God's voice" and killed her children. You do know that I was not the original poster and have never made a statement like the subject line of that post. On the other hand, all of the people you mentioned do claim to be christians. It may not be how you classify them but then you may not qualify as a christian to some of them either. Probably somewhat like being a christian 400 years ago and learning that the earth is not the center of the universe. Time to rethink your world-view. If they are having auditory hallucinations they are abnormal. Whether they are dangerous or not is really not a factor. Does claiming to be Christian make one a follower of Christ? No more than claiming to be atheist while hearing God's voice. Does hearing voices and claiming that it is God's voice make it God's voice? No. I wonder why you don't study up on the more sane and rational Christians who claim to have experiences with God. It would not be hard to seek them out and find some who would be more than happy to talk to you about their experiences.
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Post by ts on Apr 1, 2013 10:59:04 GMT -5
That's right SD. God is a matter of faith, not a matter of fact. If you see a man born blind receive sight in the name of Jesus, God's existence becomes fact. There are many other ways God proves himself to us. As we worship Him and He gives us direction in our lives, we can begin to see miracles. Stepping out in faith is a way to prove Him. He tells us to do something, we do it and He comes through with a miracle. Sometimes that is a healing. Sometimes a vision. Sometimes a prophecy. One issue is that there are many Christians who do not have the faith of the early disciples and are not seeing miracles and healing as a result. Therefore they are interpreting the scriptures accordingly.
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Post by rational on Apr 1, 2013 11:36:41 GMT -5
Does claiming to be Christian make one a follower of Christ? We are talking about what people claim they believe. Beyond that I will leave the judgment of what they believe to you since you seem to be keen to judge the beliefs of others. You keep beating this dead horse. If the atheist hears a voice it is an auditory hallucination which is not normal. Again, I will leave the speculation of what the person might believe after the auditory hallucination to you. Because it is a matter of belief which does not depend on logical nor material proof. It is, by some definitions, an irrational belief. And, as I have said in the past, I feel people are free to entertain any belief they wish. I am sure the internet has sites that are rife with anecdotal experiences.
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Post by rational on Apr 1, 2013 11:58:42 GMT -5
That's right SD. God is a matter of faith, not a matter of fact. If you see a man born blind receive sight in the name of Jesus, God's existence becomes fact. No. The facts that you have presented was that a blind person can now see. Would you stand by the same statement presented in the negative - If a blind man remains blind in spite of the plea for sight in the name of Jesus, the lack of god's existence becomes a fact? There are many ways people claim to prove god for themselves. But none which stand up to scrutiny. Or sometimes it is a severely injured child and 2 more with crushed skulls. Or 4 children drowned in their bath tub.In other words, something at some time happens and you declare it is a healing, vision, or prophecy. When you try to pin people down and look closely at these 'miracles' the facts do not support the story. Yet it seems odd that not one current christian has come forward with the faith of the early disciples and demonstrated a miracle.
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Post by snow on Apr 1, 2013 13:31:27 GMT -5
ts, schizophrenia is treatable. When they are taking their medications they do not hear voices. If an atheist becomes delusional he would not become a Christian, he would hopefully be taken to a doctor and get meds that would correct the issue. My experience with schizophrenics is they only 'regress' when they are feeling good again and think they don't need their medications and slowly they go back to their delusional states. I don't blame them really because there are unpleasant side effects to the medications, but after this has happened several times and it's caused problems for them, they slowly realize they need these meds for life. Then they have a chance of a normal life. DMG is right in her post. These people have a serious disease that is no different than heart trouble or high blood pressure. It is a disease. The only thing that stigmatizes these people over people with heart disease is that their illness can sometimes cause them to harm others or at the very least frighten others. But it is one of the mental illnesses that medications can control. Bi polar is more challenging and the drugs used for these people are not pleasant and they aren't always as effective as the medications for schizophrenics. My heart goes out to these people. Life is hard enough without having a brain that makes life harder to interpret. There are many many Christians who do hear God's voice who are clearly not schizophrenic. They are not a threat to society and they do not need medication. They are simply men who have a relationship with a very real God who speaks to them. I know plenty of people like that. They are rational, sane people who are respectable in the community and some even work with police and civic leaders. They are respected for their relationship with God. And that's different from what I have been saying, how? I have been saying that schizophrenia is a chemical imbalance in the brain. However, if they are actually hearing an auditory voice, versus a thought in their minds you just might be schizophrenic and the only difference between you and someone who kills in god's name is the act itself. As Rational has pointed out, it is only 'considered' schizophrenic when the order is to 'kill', not when the orders are something good. I guess the question is this: would you do anything that you thought God wanted you to do, even if it meant killing someone for him? If you answer yes, that might be a pretty good 'red flag' that you just might be a danger to others. I don't think all people who believe in God are schizophrenic and I've been saying that all along. However, if you are hearing auditory 'voices' that you think are God, you might want to get checked out.
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Post by snow on Apr 1, 2013 13:35:30 GMT -5
Good post! TS, seriously, I think the delusional person who hears God telling him to fly to Israel without having means to do so is only a couple steps from the one who hears God saying to kill (or do harm to) someone. Do you have an anecdote for that Israel scenario? Yes, that is a real story about being told to go to Israel. That was you, wasn't it ts? I seem to remember you saying that you were told to go to Israel when you had no means to do so.
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Post by ts on Apr 1, 2013 14:48:21 GMT -5
Does claiming to be Christian make one a follower of Christ? We are talking about what people claim they believe. Beyond that I will leave the judgment of what they believe to you since you seem to be keen to judge the beliefs of others. You keep beating this dead horse. If the atheist hears a voice it is an auditory hallucination which is not normal. Again, I will leave the speculation of what the person might believe after the auditory hallucination to you. Because it is a matter of belief which does not depend on logical nor material proof. It is, by some definitions, an irrational belief. And, as I have said in the past, I feel people are free to entertain any belief they wish. I am sure the internet has sites that are rife with anecdotal experiences. I am sure that you could find a real live person in your area who would be glad to share their experience with God. I did. People in South Africa and the United States have expressed to me personally the same sorts of experiences they have had. I highly suspect you have written off everyone who has supernatural experiences as irrational or illogical. There actually are experiences with God that are not reliant on faith. Sometimes these experiences instil faith. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes God speaks to atheists and they believe on Him. I have a friend who had that experience. He was atheist and now isn't. I know a number of people who have had supernatural experiences with God who are not hallucinating, not chemically imbalanced, etc. How do you explain people who can pass a complete medical exam and yet are having supernatural experiences? Do otherwise normal, healthy people have hallucinations? If so, you would expect that to be happening to atheists, as well. Are you saying that all atheists are always logical and rational? Are all Christians who hear God's voice illogical and irrational? I have an "I doubt it" on both of those questions.
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Post by ts on Apr 1, 2013 14:51:48 GMT -5
Yes, that is a real story about being told to go to Israel. That was you, wasn't it ts? I seem to remember you saying that you were told to go to Israel when you had no means to do so. No, it wasn't me. I think I told the story a while back, though. Would it make any difference if I told the story about myself? Would a personal testimony of God's supernatural work in my life make any difference in your belief about God? Would anyone's personal testimony make a difference? What do you have to see or experience to believe that God is real and wants nothing but good for you with no condemnation?
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Post by ts on Apr 1, 2013 15:02:22 GMT -5
There are many many Christians who do hear God's voice who are clearly not schizophrenic. They are not a threat to society and they do not need medication. They are simply men who have a relationship with a very real God who speaks to them. I know plenty of people like that. They are rational, sane people who are respectable in the community and some even work with police and civic leaders. They are respected for their relationship with God. And that's different from what I have been saying, how? I have been saying that schizophrenia is a chemical imbalance in the brain. However, if they are actually hearing an auditory voice, versus a thought in their minds you just might be schizophrenic and the only difference between you and someone who kills in god's name is the act itself. As Rational has pointed out, it is only 'considered' schizophrenic when the order is to 'kill', not when the orders are something good. I guess the question is this: would you do anything that you thought God wanted you to do, even if it meant killing someone for him? If you answer yes, that might be a pretty good 'red flag' that you just might be a danger to others. I don't think all people who believe in God are schizophrenic and I've been saying that all along. However, if you are hearing auditory 'voices' that you think are God, you might want to get checked out. Well, God is good and what He says is good and right. Killing people is not what God is ordering people to do. I know about the old testament and the countless people God ordered killed. That is a discussion in and of itself. Suffice it to say that Jesus did not tell people to go and kill people. Quite the opposite. It does, then, make a difference the message that one is hearing. The stories I have heard of God or Jesus appearing or speaking to people I know always had a message and there was more confirmation and follow through externally and more physically. Like a message given by God and confirmed by someone who had no knowledge of the message given to the person. That sort of thing. Yes, the message sometimes calls a person to do some radical things, but not harmful things. It might upset some people but not harm them. It has always been spiritually uplifting and encouraging. I find it very easy to ignore the obvious mental cases who are claiming to "hear voices". Not that I have talked to any such folks. But the ones mentioned in the news media are nothing similar to what I have experienced.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 1, 2013 15:02:34 GMT -5
I wonder if you have ever really been listening to why I'm an atheist.
It has nothing to do with my "gene" pool! ;D You and Gene are having pool parties, dmmichgood? Not until it gets warmer that it is today!
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Post by ts on Apr 1, 2013 15:05:55 GMT -5
If you see a man born blind receive sight in the name of Jesus, God's existence becomes fact. No. The facts that you have presented was that a blind person can now see. Would you stand by the same statement presented in the negative - If a blind man remains blind in spite of the plea for sight in the name of Jesus, the lack of god's existence becomes a fact? There are many ways people claim to prove god for themselves. But none which stand up to scrutiny. Or sometimes it is a severely injured child and 2 more with crushed skulls. Or 4 children drowned in their bath tub.In other words, something at some time happens and you declare it is a healing, vision, or prophecy. When you try to pin people down and look closely at these 'miracles' the facts do not support the story. Yet it seems odd that not one current christian has come forward with the faith of the early disciples and demonstrated a miracle. If you saw ONE miracle, ONE person born blind healed or some similar and obviously unexplainable and miraculous event, would you believe in God even if you or no one else could reproduce that same thing or anything similar? I mean if you saw it with your own eyes and you knew beyond a doubt that something supernatural had taken place EVEN ONE TIME, would you believe? Would you stand by that? Your theory is that the supernatural does not exist. One example of its existence would blow that theory.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 1, 2013 15:24:44 GMT -5
Hearing God's voice is normal in certain circumstances and if a person has a religious belief. It is not a mental disorder to hear God's voice as it is a fact that God speaks to certain individuals but what he says needs to line up with scripture. For most of this discussion we have been talking about auditory hallucinations. People stating they are hearing the audible voice of god speaking to them. As mentioned in other posts, if someone believes god is communicating with them in some other way that is a matter of their belief and unless they produce some data/facts regarding that phenomenon I would consider it a belief. Audible sound, on the other hand, is a sequence of pressure waves that moves through a medium and, when it strikes the tympanic membrane which eventually stimulates the brain and humans sense that as sound. Sound is difficult to hide. When people say they are hearing voices that no one else can hear and when no instrument is able to detect those pressure waves the is having an auditory hallucination and that is abnormal. You believe this to be true but until you can provide some proof there are people who simply do not believe as you do. Of course, if you could demonstrate god speaking that would certainly be a step in the direction of proving that god does exist. Just because you believe in him doesn't mean he does exist. You are making the claim but cannot deliver any logical or material proof.I believe that all of these things did happen according to the laws of nature. They didn't come together but developed in an explainable way. A little serious study of the eye. for example, would bring to light that the design is not all that intelligent. You would need to look beyond christian sites to get a true biological picture. And as far as the development - there is a clear developmental path from the photo sensitive eye-spots on flat worms to the fully functioning eyes of chicken or shrimp. Chicken have superior color vision when compared to humans and shrimp have more sophisticated eyes than humans. I am not saying that the eye is not a good organ for vision but people at Northweastern have developed a mechanical eye that preforms as well as a human eye, is only the size of a nickle and also features a 3.5X zoom. I think one of the concepts you are promoting here is irreducible complexity. It, and possibilities of eye development is explained: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexityFor detail regarding evolution of the eye: www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=evolution-of-the-eye Thanks, rational, for that info.
It is known scientific data.
It is interesting that fundamentalist believing Christians give away the fact of where their info comes from.
They will all use the same examples. They don't seem to realize that they are giving away the fact that they are all dipping from the same canned anti-evolution rhetoric & not digging out the truth themselves.
I've heard the "eye" example many times from them,- even once where one quoted Darwin, trying to say the even he didn't believe the eye could have evolved. This person left out the ending of Darwin's statement which stated just the opposite.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 1, 2013 15:50:11 GMT -5
We are talking about what people claim they believe. Beyond that I will leave the judgment of what they believe to you since you seem to be keen to judge the beliefs of others. You keep beating this dead horse. If the atheist hears a voice it is an auditory hallucination which is not normal. Again, I will leave the speculation of what the person might believe after the auditory hallucination to you. Because it is a matter of belief which does not depend on logical nor material proof. It is, by some definitions, an irrational belief. And, as I have said in the past, I feel people are free to entertain any belief they wish. I am sure the internet has sites that are rife with anecdotal experiences. I am sure that you could find a real live person in your area who would be glad to share their experience with God. I did. People in South Africa and the United States have expressed to me personally the same sorts of experiences they have had. I highly suspect you have written off everyone who has supernatural experiences as irrational or illogical. There actually are experiences with God that are not reliant on faith. 1) Sometimes these experiences instil faith. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes God speaks to atheists and they believe on Him. I have a friend who had that experience. 2) He was atheist and now isn't. I know a number of people who have had supernatural experiences with God who are not hallucinating, not chemically imbalanced, etc. How do you explain people who can pass a complete medical exam and yet are having supernatural experiences? 3) Do otherwise normal, healthy people have hallucinations? If so, you would expect that to be happening to atheists, as well. Are you saying that all atheists are always logical and rational? Are all Christians who hear God's voice illogical and irrational? I have an "I doubt it" on both of those questions. 1) I always love this one, whatever happens, "sometimes things happen, sometimes they don't," either way you can "believe"! It is like having your cake & eating it too!
2) I also love this one! "Once they were atheist now they are a believer." Truth of the matter is that they just hadn't given it any thought either way, but once they are a believer, they love to claim have being an "atheist" before! ;D
3) No, normal healthy people don't have "hallucinations."
Maybe it is time to look up the definition of "hallucinations - & don't forget "sciopathic" also.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2013 15:51:16 GMT -5
That's right SD. God is a matter of faith, not a matter of fact. If you see a man born blind receive sight in the name of Jesus, God's existence becomes fact. You need to get your facts straight, so to speak. What if that person received their sight from the power of the devil masquerading as God? Then God is not a fact from that event. You attribute the miracles to God through faith, not fact. Any one of those could be imagination, delusion, happenstance or coincidence. You attribute them to God by faith, not fact. That is certain one good way to explain away the absence of faith healing......not enough faith.......but it sounds a lot like an excuse to me.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 1, 2013 15:53:46 GMT -5
For most of this discussion we have been talking about auditory hallucinations. People stating they are hearing the audible voice of god speaking to them. As mentioned in other posts, if someone believes god is communicating with them in some other way that is a matter of their belief and unless they produce some data/facts regarding that phenomenon I would consider it a belief. Audible sound, on the other hand, is a sequence of pressure waves that moves through a medium and, when it strikes the tympanic membrane which eventually stimulates the brain and humans sense that as sound. Sound is difficult to hide. When people say they are hearing voices that no one else can hear and when no instrument is able to detect those pressure waves the is having an auditory hallucination and that is abnormal. You believe this to be true but until you can provide some proof there are people who simply do not believe as you do. Of course, if you could demonstrate god speaking that would certainly be a step in the direction of proving that god does exist. Just because you believe in him doesn't mean he does exist. You are making the claim but cannot deliver any logical or material proof.I believe that all of these things did happen according to the laws of nature. They didn't come together but developed in an explainable way. A little serious study of the eye. for example, would bring to light that the design is not all that intelligent. You would need to look beyond christian sites to get a true biological picture. And as far as the development - there is a clear developmental path from the photo sensitive eye-spots on flat worms to the fully functioning eyes of chicken or shrimp. Chicken have superior color vision when compared to humans and shrimp have more sophisticated eyes than humans. I am not saying that the eye is not a good organ for vision but people at Northweastern have developed a mechanical eye that preforms as well as a human eye, is only the size of a nickle and also features a 3.5X zoom. I think one of the concepts you are promoting here is irreducible complexity. It, and possibilities of eye development is explained: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreducible_complexityFor detail regarding evolution of the eye: www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=evolution-of-the-eye I would suggest to my Christian brethren not to go down the route of using science to prove God. It can't be done. God cannot be proven. And neither can His existence be dispproved.It is enough to believe in God and to prove His existence real in one's own life and to remember the proverb- "the fool has said in his heart, there is no God." Trying to prove the existence of God is impossible and a fool's errand. Trying to disprove the existence of God, is also impossible. It is only by faith we walk, and not by sight. very good advice
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