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Post by ts on Mar 30, 2013 0:00:20 GMT -5
Having a delusion doesn't necessarily mean you have mental illness even though some mental illnesses are characterized by delusions. A delusion is simply a falsely held belief. To atheists, all deists are delusional but not necessarily mentally ill. So is it impossible for an atheist to be delusional? Or just not delusional about hearing God's voice? Do atheists lose their "membership" in the atheist club if they claim to hear God's voice?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2013 0:09:39 GMT -5
Having a delusion doesn't necessarily mean you have mental illness even though some mental illnesses are characterized by delusions. A delusion is simply a falsely held belief. To atheists, all deists are delusional but not necessarily mentally ill. So is it impossible for an atheist to be delusional? Where would you get that idea from? It's a silly question, perhaps intended so? Another strange question. Any schizophrenic could become delusional about anything. I haven't heard of such a club. Do you have the web site for it? Check their rules.
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Post by ts on Mar 30, 2013 0:26:18 GMT -5
So is it impossible for an atheist to be delusional? Where would you get that idea from? It's a silly question, perhaps intended so? Another strange question. Any schizophrenic could become delusional about anything. I haven't heard of such a club. Do you have the web site for it? Check their rules. Oh, you mean you can't lump all atheists together? It seems that atheists have an easier time lumping all Christians together. When there was a discussion about healing or speaking in tongues or something, some atheist posted a ridiculous video of a service that was at least nominally Christian but was not anything I would want anything to do with. Other posts have atheists lumping Catholics in with protestants in ways that are obviously just as obtuse as the above. There might be an atheist club. I don't know. But you don't have to be a part of the club to be atheist. Just like you can be Christian and not be a part of any church. I am simply commenting on the tendency here on the board for atheists to lump all Christians together in one bunch and, further, to lump them in with all other groups who believe in any deity. But they themselves can't be lumped.
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Post by rational on Mar 30, 2013 6:07:17 GMT -5
I was just listing the common symptoms as an explanation as to why the woman was classified as insane. I realize that, but my question is how that is different from almost every Christian? I was talking about auditory hallucinations. They are abnormal. When people talk about god speaking to them they frequently mention some other form of communication. Since that is not something that can be reproduced, tested, or demonstrated it is a huge unknown. That was the point. If god 'tells' someong to do something deemed 'good' everyone is happy and thanks god for moving the person to action. If that action is deemed 'bad' then ths very same thing that moved the person to do good is looked at as insanity. I don't think it is the belief that makes the difference. I would not classify them in any of those terms. While some claim to hear an audible voice more often it is a feeling they get that god is speaking to them. While I do not believe any external entity is communicating with the person, I am sure there are people who do. I have no reason to disprove what they believe but should they wish to present some proof of this phenomenon I would consider their arguments.
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Post by Gene on Mar 30, 2013 9:00:52 GMT -5
ts, just wondering how you believe you know what an atheist thinks? ;D That is my thought not on each individual but on the atheist belief. I am proposing a conundrum for the atheist. If an atheist, who does not believe in the supernatural, suddenly starts hearing voices and believes it to be God, is he then still an atheist? ... I don't see how that's a conundrum. One can believe an entity exists without believing the entity manifests itself, but one cannot believe an entity manifests itself without believing the entity exists. A person who believes God exists is not an atheist.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2013 9:27:24 GMT -5
As I see it, serving God is not a mental illness, far from it. Serving God is wholesome; it is a wholesome, spiritual exercise of the mind and body/heart in the things pertaining to God. Doing God's will brings us sweet release; I think that only a true believer will really understand/appreciate this.
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Post by snow on Mar 30, 2013 13:14:37 GMT -5
As I see it, serving God is not a mental illness, far from it. Serving God is wholesome; it is a wholesome, spiritual exercise of the mind and body/heart in the things pertaining to God. Doing God's will brings us sweet release; I think that only a true believer will really understand/appreciate this. I think the question here is that they feel they are doing God's will and as long as that turns out to be a good deed it's fine and the person is applauded as being godly. However, when people do God's will and it is not a good deed then people deny it was God and the person is insane. That person still is quite emphatic it was God's will. We know from reading the bible that God's will is not always benign. Sometimes it was downright brutal. So those who believe in the literal infallible interpretation of the Bible are likely to take anything they think God wants and do it and not question it if it isn't deemed good in the eyes of society. After all God sometimes asks for 'hard' things to be done to test us and so it might be relevant. I know that the woman we had in forensic counselling believed it was God that told her to drown her children to save their souls from the evilness in the world. She was diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic, and I agree, but she still was very convinced she had done the right thing because it was God's will. So it's a fine line between what we see as God's will and insanity. She is not the first one to do this, as seen above, and she won't be the last. So the question becomes, when does it become insanity to believe God is directing you, talking to you and asking you to do his will? I'm not saying that people who believe in supernatural entities are insane. I personally think it is an chemical imbalance in the brain. CD made the comment that having a delusional belief does not make a person insane though that is one of the symptoms of insanity. I would agree, but it's also a little like the 'chicken and the egg' question?
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Post by ts on Mar 30, 2013 17:13:17 GMT -5
That is my thought not on each individual but on the atheist belief. I am proposing a conundrum for the atheist. If an atheist, who does not believe in the supernatural, suddenly starts hearing voices and believes it to be God, is he then still an atheist? ... I don't see how that's a conundrum. One can believe an entity exists without believing the entity manifests itself, but one cannot believe an entity manifests itself without believing the entity exists. A person who believes God exists is not an atheist. I doubt it. If a person who claims to be an atheist starts hearing God's voice, at the very least, there is confusion. I mean, what does a person say, "I don't believe in God but I hear His voice"? To me, that is a conundrum.
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Post by emy on Mar 30, 2013 17:29:37 GMT -5
I'd be inclined to think if an atheist heard an audible voice, he wouldn't be inclined to call it God. Did I see someone say "Dawkins"? ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2013 17:31:29 GMT -5
Here is the way I would distinguish between a mentally ill delusion and a mentally sound delusion:
The mentally ill deluded person is someone who has a false belief without reason or rationality. The mentally sound deluded person is someone who has been convinced of a false belief by reason or rationality.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2013 17:32:57 GMT -5
I'd be inclined to think if an atheist heard an audible voice, he wouldn't be inclined to call it God. Did I see someone say "Dawkins"? ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) They would probably hear Christopher Hitchens talking to them.
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Post by ts on Mar 30, 2013 17:34:29 GMT -5
I'd be inclined to think if an atheist heard an audible voice, he wouldn't be inclined to call it God. Did I see someone say "Dawkins"? ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) Why would an atheist not call a voice "God" if he were deluded into thinking it were God? That is what I have been asking. Are atheists not capable of being delusional? Or, if they are, delusional and say they hear God's voice, do they lose their qualifications for being atheist?
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Post by ts on Mar 30, 2013 17:51:51 GMT -5
I mean, if rational were to somehow become chemically imbalanced in such a way that he started hearing voices and just "KNEW" that it was the voice of God, and he wrote it here on the board, would he really be considered rational after that?
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Post by Gene on Mar 30, 2013 18:52:47 GMT -5
I don't see how that's a conundrum. One can believe an entity exists without believing the entity manifests itself, but one cannot believe an entity manifests itself without believing the entity exists. A person who believes God exists is not an atheist. I doubt it. If a person who claims to be an atheist starts hearing God's voice, at the very least, there is confusion. I mean, what does a person say, "I don't believe in God but I hear His voice"? To me, that is a conundrum. I still don't see the conundrum. A person who WAS an atheist who then says he hears God talking, obviously is no longer an atheist. What's difficult to understand about that?
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Post by Gene on Mar 30, 2013 18:53:50 GMT -5
I mean, if rational were to somehow become chemically imbalanced in such a way that he started hearing voices and just "KNEW" that it was the voice of God, and he wrote it here on the board, would he really be considered rational after that? Whether rational or not, he would certainly not be considered an atheist. I still don't get your point.
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Post by Gene on Mar 30, 2013 18:55:42 GMT -5
I'd be inclined to think if an atheist heard an audible voice, he wouldn't be inclined to call it God. Did I see someone say "Dawkins"? ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png) Why would an atheist not call a voice "God" if he were deluded into thinking it were God? That is what I have been asking. Are atheists not capable of being delusional? Or, if they are, delusional and say they hear God's voice, do they lose their qualifications for being atheist? Of course atheists can be delusional. But if they say they hear 'God's' voice, they're not an atheist! What is your point, actually? You are asking questions, the answers to which are so obvious, I feel I'm being led down the garden path, but for the life of me I have no idea whither it leads.
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Post by sharonw on Mar 30, 2013 19:09:32 GMT -5
I doubt it. If a person who claims to be an atheist starts hearing God's voice, at the very least, there is confusion. I mean, what does a person say, "I don't believe in God but I hear His voice"? To me, that is a conundrum. I still don't see the conundrum. A person who WAS an atheist who then says he hears God talking, obviously is no longer an atheist. What's difficult to understand about that? Precisely! Any chance that you've heard a "god-voice" yet, Rat? ![:D](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/grin.png)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2013 19:44:11 GMT -5
I mean, if rational were to somehow become chemically imbalanced in such a way that he started hearing voices and just "KNEW" that it was the voice of God, and he wrote it here on the board, would he really be considered rational after that? Whether rational or not, he would certainly not be considered an atheist. I still don't get your point. I'm not so certain of that Gene. I know an old fellow, a Christian, who began to suffer from dementia. He began speaking like, well, more like a salty old drunken sailor than a Christian. Yet everyone still considered him simply a Christian with dementia. I would think it would be the same for an atheist. If rational went into severe dementia and started calling on God or hearing his voice (it would have to be pretty severe for rational to start doing that ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) ), I would still consider rational an atheist, with dementia.
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Post by Gene on Mar 30, 2013 20:43:44 GMT -5
Whether rational or not, he would certainly not be considered an atheist. I still don't get your point. I'm not so certain of that Gene. I know an old fellow, a Christian, who began to suffer from dementia. He began speaking like, well, more like a salty old drunken sailor than a Christian. Yet everyone still considered him simply a Christian with dementia. I would think it would be the same for an atheist. If rational went into severe dementia and started calling on God or hearing his voice (it would have to be pretty severe for rational to start doing that ![:)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/smiley.png) ), I would still consider rational an atheist, with dementia. It's a simple test: Does he believe God exists? If yes, he's not an atheist! Now you may say that the only reason he believes God exists is because he's demented... ;D The demented Christian isn't quite the same thing. There, you're talking only about behaviour, while assuming the underlying belief has not changed. A former atheist who avows hearing the voice of God, on the other hand, has not merely changed behaviour -- he's adopted a belief he formerly lacked.
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Post by ts on Mar 30, 2013 22:00:43 GMT -5
Gene, I am not certain where this is leading, either. Just musing.
A Christian who hears God's voice is "delusional" but can still be considered a Christian.
An atheist with the same "malady" loses his atheist status.
If you take out the nut cases who CLAIM to be Christian and say God told them this or that in order to control people(Jim Jones types) without actually hearing voices...
If you take out the sociopathic atheists with a chip on their shoulder who are only out to bash Christians...
Then you are left with more or less a pool of emotionally sound people with different beliefs.
The atheist is a chemical imbalance away from losing his atheist status and believing in God and the Christian is a chemical imbalance away from people giving him a lot of grace.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2013 22:10:00 GMT -5
.l ... .. . . regarding mental illness--- some scientists criticize people for faith-stating it is not based upon scientific facts .. but science fails in some regards .. it doesn't rightfully EXPLAIN paranormal events .. . ... nor does science adequately explain mental illness so then, I ask: if scientists are so smart, why don't they know more about the cause(s) of mental illness and why are there not more methods to treat and/or cure it? does science have all the answers, no, it doesn't ---no one wants to get "tagged" with a diagnosis of schizophrenia so they will do almost anything to cover it up .. who me, no I didn't hear any voices! it is STILL in 2013 a dreaded thing to have and no wonder-people treat people who are mentally ill far different --they are shunned ; they are treated as though they have a highly contagious disease like the plague ----aside from that, though, there are many accounts in Scripture of people who were "vexed" (with demons) .. not saying that everyone who is mentally ill is possessed by demons, .. yet, the medical profession as a whole fails to explore this possibility ! ! my take is if you are going to criticize , but cannot come up with better answers , do you have a right to criticize ? is there adequate data ? likely not .. one reason being that so many people are in denial and fail to report accurately what they are really thinking and feeling .. ask 50 people whether or not they have ever had the measles and you will get a fairly honest 'yes' or 'no' but ask 50 people if they have ever had a mental illness and the answers will not be so clear cut many folks are still afraid to be honest about how they really feel ; ; or the kinds of perceptions and thoughts they could be having that are not normal .. so, they go untreated .. it's pretty hard to treat something, if one simply denies that something exists
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Post by rational on Mar 30, 2013 22:19:47 GMT -5
I mean, if rational were to somehow become chemically imbalanced in such a way that he started hearing voices and just "KNEW" that it was the voice of God, and he wrote it here on the board, would he really be considered rational after that? Let's be realistic. If I began to hear voices I would first take steps necessary to attempt to determine the source. My first choice would not be to throw in a 'god of the voices' as an explanation. For me to "know" it was god I would need extraordinary proof to support that extraordinary claim.
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Post by ts on Mar 30, 2013 22:25:56 GMT -5
I mean, if rational were to somehow become chemically imbalanced in such a way that he started hearing voices and just "KNEW" that it was the voice of God, and he wrote it here on the board, would he really be considered rational after that? Let's be realistic. If I began to hear voices I would first take steps necessary to attempt to determine the source. My first choice would not be to throw in a 'god of the voices' as an explanation. For me to "know" it was god I would need extraordinary proof to support that extraordinary claim. You can't be too sure what you might do if you were delusional.
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Post by rational on Mar 30, 2013 22:31:54 GMT -5
.l ... .. . . regarding mental illness--- some scientists criticize people for faith-stating it is not based upon scientific facts .. but science fails in some regards .. it doesn't rightfully EXPLAIN paranormal events .. Can you name one paranormal event?Perhaps not all but the reason why drugs work is because the cause of the mental illness being treated is known and the cure applied. Of course it doesn't. Seeking answers is what science is all about. How does society's view of the mentally ill have anything to do with the cause and treatment? The first step in following this path would be to demonstrate that demons exist. It is difficult to be serious about assigning blame to entities that have never been shown to exist. While you may not be able to come up with the answers you can eliminate some possibilities simply based on the existing data. With the advances in technology the specific activity in regions of the brain can be observed so it is possible to know what parts of the brain are active. Exactly. It is not so much that there are no cures/treatments but that the people who need the treatment do not come forward. At least not until they do something like save their children from hell by killing them.
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Post by rational on Mar 30, 2013 22:36:38 GMT -5
If a person who claims to be an atheist starts hearing God's voice, at the very least, there is confusion. I mean, what does a person say, "I don't believe in God but I hear His voice"? To me, that is a conundrum. I think you have a flaw in your logic. What makes you think if an atheist began hearing voices that they would attribute that voice to god or any other paranormal being?
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Post by rational on Mar 30, 2013 22:40:03 GMT -5
Let's be realistic. If I began to hear voices I would first take steps necessary to attempt to determine the source. My first choice would not be to throw in a 'god of the voices' as an explanation. For me to "know" it was god I would need extraordinary proof to support that extraordinary claim. You can't be too sure what you might do if you were delusional. I guess that answers your question about believing in god being delusional. Perhaps what you are asking if whether someone who is delusional is responsible for their behavior. So far your questions have not been too clear.
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Post by ts on Mar 30, 2013 22:56:17 GMT -5
If a person who claims to be an atheist starts hearing God's voice, at the very least, there is confusion. I mean, what does a person say, "I don't believe in God but I hear His voice"? To me, that is a conundrum. I think you have a flaw in your logic. What makes you think if an atheist began hearing voices that they would attribute that voice to god or any other paranormal being? I don't say that an atheist necessarily will attribute a voice to God. But if he is delusional and is "SURE" the voice came from God, then that is that. Is it impossible for an atheist to be just as prone to delusion as anyone else who says they hear God's voice? If it is indeed a mental illness, why not? If it is a mental illness to hear God's voice, you should be able to produce proof that there are proportionally just as many delusional atheists hearing God's voice as there are Christians.
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Post by rational on Mar 30, 2013 23:07:10 GMT -5
I don't say that an atheist necessarily will attribute a voice to God. But if he is delusional and is "SURE" the voice came from God, then that is that. If he is delusional s/he is not sure of anything. If anyone is hearing voices they are not normal, regardless to whom they attribute the source. People hear voices. Different people attribute the voices to different sources. It is abnormal for people to hear voices. The source attributed to the voice is not the issue. Why would an atheist attribute the voice to god?
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