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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 29, 2013 9:16:26 GMT -5
Rational brought up this topic in another thread. It deserves further discussion. In that thread, a lady was diagnosed criminally insane because she killed her children because God told her to do so. In the Andrea Yates case in Texas, she killed her children because she thought that she was a bad mom and that her children as a consequence could never be saved. In the Andrea Yates case, it is very clear to me that she was indeed insane. The Wikipedia article on her is a harrowing read. Poor lady. Poor kids. A tragedy indeed.
But, there is a case in American history whereby a man murdered his daughter because God told him to. His favorite daughter. He plunged a knife into her heart. He even told her that God would make it right. So, he killed her, and then waiting by her bedside, even telling other church members about it, many of whom kept quiet (although word did leak out to the authorities). Needless to say, his daughter never awoke. The man and his wife were devastated. He sincerely thought that the Lord had told him to kill his daughter. The Supreme Court later declared him insane.
Trivia question for you: anyone know what case that was? What the man's name was? It is a fascinating story.
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Post by rational on Mar 29, 2013 10:41:04 GMT -5
Rational brought up this topic in another thread. Just to clarify, I did not claim that serving/believing in god was mental illness. There were a couple of points. If a person is having auditory hallucinations it is not normal. If the voices they hear tell them to do something wonderful (provide shelter for starving children, for example) and they mention after the fact that "God told me to help the children." no one will take much notice other than to praise god. If, on the other hand, the same person was having auditory hallucinations and did something not so wonderful (crush the skulls of their children with rocks, for example) and then announce "I killed my children as god commanded to save them from hell." not many would be thanking god for the act of saving the children from hell and the person would be judged to be insane. Same voices. Same level of obeying. Only one degree beyond Abraham and his example of obeying god no matter what the command. Is this the case: NEVADA v. REDMAN was a February 2011 Nevada murder court case in which William Boyd Redman Jr., age 57, was convicted of First-Degree Murder But Mentally Ill for the March 2008 near decapitation of his 12 year-old daughter, named Gloria Redman. William B. Redman's own public defender described his client as a "Jehovah's Witness", who had been "extremely mentally ill" for some time, but no history of violent behavior. Gloria Redman had stayed home from school due to illness. She was murdered by her own father while Rosemary Redman went grocery shopping. The mother returned to find Gloria Redman lying in a pool of blood inside the family's mobile home. William Redman refused to allow his wife to help Gloria. Rosemary Redman telephoned 911, and paramedics and police responded. Gloria Redman was found with her throat cut, while Redman himself had multiple self-inflicted knife wounds to his arms and even his own neck. Bill Redman told the 911 operator that his daughter's death was "the way Jehovah does things." Redman told police that he had also tried to kill himself so that he could guide Gloria during the three days of death that preceded their resurrection by Rosemary Redman. William Redman also tried to "witness" to the attending paramedics asking one female paramedic if she believed in God, while telling her that "he had seen God."www.lasvegassun.com/news/2013/mar/25/court-rejects-appeal-man-who-claims-god-told-him-k/These are not uncommon events: watchtowernews.org/familymurders.htm
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Post by snow on Mar 29, 2013 11:26:44 GMT -5
This is one post in a conversation Rational and I were having. It raises the question if there is any difference between the lady I was talking about who was diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic for drowning her 4 children and others who hear Gods voice and feel he is guiding them. I contend that there is a difference because most people can separate delusion from reality. Well here is the conversation for you to read for yourself.
Sorry I don't know how to link that post to here so I just cut and pasted. Hope it makes sense anyway.
Yesterday at 9:56am, snow wrote:
When someone is diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic I think that they are in a very different category from someone who has faith in god and believes in god.
Yesterday at 12:16pm, rational wrote:
Really? Usually the diagnosis is based on symptoms and the common symptoms of schizophrenia include auditory hallucinations(I hear god talking to me), paranoia(the devil is out to get me) or bizarre delusions(god has chosen me to do his will). So when a person presents at the ER and says that they heard the voice of god telling them to kill their children to protect them from the devil guess what the first guess is regarding their problem? Not that they are a messenger from god. The point is people are diagnosed as mentally challenged because of their behavior and hearing voices is one of the symptoms.Just doing what god told them to do. I don't recalling saying everyone that believes in god. Just those having hallucinations.Look at the symptoms. Can you recall anyone who claims they hear voices that you would call normal? I don't think this is the case. Nothing. Let's head for the WTC.
I contend that if you are hearing voices and letting them guide you through life you are not normal. If someone has had to go that far into the process they need to seek help. No, because she believed that she was hearing god she obeyed and did what she was told. You do raise an interesting question though. The real question is "Does anyone believe that people hearing voices is not caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain"? If anyone answers "Yes" to that then there is a danger that the voices will tell the person to do something harmful and others will defend and help the person because they too believe it is the voice/will of god.
snow wrote:
Rational, if we were to ask the people on this board who believe in God whether or not God guides them, speaks to them, how many do you think would answer yes? Whether they are auditory hallucinations or not may be the difference? Is that what you are referring to? Is there any difference between someone saying they receive guidance from God and 'auditory hallucination"? It is still perceived to be a 'voice' outside of ourselves is it not?
I wonder if you see any difference between someone here who says God guides them or the Holy Spirit guides them and this woman who is diagnosed as schizophrenic? Also, are you saying not all people who believe in God, think God speaks to them? Possibly not, but I have heard people on here say that God has chosen them to do his work. Is that what you would label as 'bizarre delusions'?
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Post by rational on Mar 29, 2013 11:35:36 GMT -5
I contend that there is a difference because most people can separate delusion from reality. How? And what reality? The man who feels god's calling and decides to become a preacher or the preacher who feels god's urging that he avail himself of a bit of comfort from that comely parishioner? What is the reality and what is the delusion?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2013 11:59:39 GMT -5
I contend that there is a difference because most people can separate delusion from reality. How? And what reality? The man who feels god's calling and decides to become a preacher or the preacher who feels god's urging that he avail himself of a bit of comfort from that comely parishioner? What is the reality and what is the delusion? Sadly, much error occurs because, as the LORD commented people lack knowledge. For the sane honest man born again of The Holy Spirit, aware of Biblical teaching, rational, there is ample difference between the two.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2013 12:11:58 GMT -5
The two statements above describe the claims of almost every Christian ie hearing the voice of God for guidance, believing the devil is out to get them and feeling that God has chosen them. Are they all schizophrenic?
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Post by rational on Mar 29, 2013 12:15:07 GMT -5
Sadly, much error occurs because, as the LORD commented people lack knowledge. For the sane honest man born again of The Holy Spirit, aware of Biblical teaching, rational, there is ample difference between the two. This sounds good but in reality the symptoms that would cause someone to be classified as having a mental illness are the same 'signs' that the honest man born again of the holy spirit would exhibit. As observers, how can it be determined that the woman didn't hear the voice of god and the act of crushing their skulls was to prevent them from committing some other terrible crime? As I pointed out, had she done something wonderful and gave credit to god no one would have questioned her claim that god had moved her to act.
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Post by rational on Mar 29, 2013 12:18:24 GMT -5
The two statements above describe the claims of almost every Christian ie hearing the voice of God for guidance, believing the devil is out to get them and feeling that God has chosen them. Are they all schizophrenic? I was just listing the common symptoms as an explanation as to why the woman was classified as insane.
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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 29, 2013 12:25:38 GMT -5
Rational brought up this topic in another thread. Just to clarify, I did not claim that serving/believing in god was mental illness. There were a couple of points. If a person is having auditory hallucinations it is not normal. If the voices they hear tell them to do something wonderful (provide shelter for starving children, for example) and they mention after the fact that "God told me to help the children." no one will take much notice other than to praise god. If, on the other hand, the same person was having auditory hallucinations and did something not so wonderful (crush the skulls of their children with rocks, for example) and then announce "I killed my children as god commanded to save them from hell." not many would be thanking god for the act of saving the children from hell and the person would be judged to be insane. Same voices. Same level of obeying. Only one degree beyond Abraham and his example of obeying god no matter what the command. Is this the case: NEVADA v. REDMAN was a February 2011 Nevada murder court case in which William Boyd Redman Jr., age 57, was convicted of First-Degree Murder But Mentally Ill for the March 2008 near decapitation of his 12 year-old daughter, named Gloria Redman. William B. Redman's own public defender described his client as a "Jehovah's Witness", who had been "extremely mentally ill" for some time, but no history of violent behavior. Gloria Redman had stayed home from school due to illness. She was murdered by her own father while Rosemary Redman went grocery shopping. The mother returned to find Gloria Redman lying in a pool of blood inside the family's mobile home. William Redman refused to allow his wife to help Gloria. Rosemary Redman telephoned 911, and paramedics and police responded. Gloria Redman was found with her throat cut, while Redman himself had multiple self-inflicted knife wounds to his arms and even his own neck. Bill Redman told the 911 operator that his daughter's death was "the way Jehovah does things." Redman told police that he had also tried to kill himself so that he could guide Gloria during the three days of death that preceded their resurrection by Rosemary Redman. William Redman also tried to "witness" to the attending paramedics asking one female paramedic if she believed in God, while telling her that "he had seen God."www.lasvegassun.com/news/2013/mar/25/court-rejects-appeal-man-who-claims-god-told-him-k/These are not uncommon events: watchtowernews.org/familymurders.htmHere was the case that I had in mind, Rational. query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F30D17FB3B5F15738DDDAF0894DA415B8384F0D3
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Post by snow on Mar 29, 2013 13:08:56 GMT -5
I contend that there is a difference because most people can separate delusion from reality. How? And what reality? The man who feels god's calling and decides to become a preacher or the preacher who feels god's urging that he avail himself of a bit of comfort from that comely parishioner? What is the reality and what is the delusion? I guess what I see is that people who believe there is a god and want to share that belief with others don't usually resort to killing their children. There must be something stopping them from going to that next level? Mental illness is a chemical imbalance. People who believe in God and his calling that don't have this chemical imbalance should respond differently to the same set of circumstances I would think. I keep thinking there is something else you're saying here that I am obviously missing.
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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 29, 2013 13:18:12 GMT -5
How? And what reality? The man who feels god's calling and decides to become a preacher or the preacher who feels god's urging that he avail himself of a bit of comfort from that comely parishioner? What is the reality and what is the delusion? I guess what I see is that people who believe there is a god and want to share that belief with others don't usually resort to killing their children. There must be something stopping them from going to that next level? Mental illness is a chemical imbalance. People who believe in God and his calling that don't have this chemical imbalance should respond differently to the same set of circumstances I would think. I keep thinking there is something else you're saying here that I am obviously missing. In the one case that I cited, Mr. Freeman looked at God asking Abraham to sacrifice Issac- and Abraham was willing to do that knowing that God could raise Issac to life again. And of course, God sacrificed His own Son. I can easily see how religion MIXED with delusions could bring about such circumstances. I am only amazed that it doesn't happen more often. Going into the priesthood or to be a worker is on occasion mentioned as being like a parent sacrificing their child for the kingdom's sake.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2013 13:19:49 GMT -5
The two statements above describe the claims of almost every Christian ie hearing the voice of God for guidance, believing the devil is out to get them and feeling that God has chosen them. Are they all schizophrenic? I was just listing the common symptoms as an explanation as to why the woman was classified as insane. I realize that, but my question is how that is different from almost every Christian? Do you have to wait until someone is murdered to make the proper diagnosis for schizophrenia? Or from the opposite end, is it possible that someone could be declared mentally incompetent on the basis of their Christian beliefs? As an atheist, do you think everyone who "hears" the voice of God is nutty or delusional?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2013 13:26:03 GMT -5
I guess what I see is that people who believe there is a god and want to share that belief with others don't usually resort to killing their children. There must be something stopping them from going to that next level? Mental illness is a chemical imbalance. People who believe in God and his calling that don't have this chemical imbalance should respond differently to the same set of circumstances I would think. I keep thinking there is something else you're saying here that I am obviously missing. In the one case that I cited, Mr. Freeman looked at God asking Abraham to sacrifice Issac- and Abraham was willing to do that knowing that God could raise Issac to life again. And of course, God sacrificed His own Son. I can easily see how religion MIXED with delusions could bring about such circumstances. I am only amazed that it doesn't happen more often. Going into the priesthood or to be a worker is on occasion mentioned as being like a parent sacrificing their child for the kingdom's sake. I wonder how many people, over the centuries, have injured or killed themselves over "if thine eye offend thee......if thy hand offend thee....". Would everyone who followed that directive be considered delusional?
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Post by Greg on Mar 29, 2013 13:32:21 GMT -5
In the one case that I cited, Mr. Freeman looked at God asking Abraham to sacrifice Issac- and Abraham was willing to do that knowing that God could raise Issac to life again. And of course, God sacrificed His own Son. I can easily see how religion MIXED with delusions could bring about such circumstances. I am only amazed that it doesn't happen more often. Going into the priesthood or to be a worker is on occasion mentioned as being like a parent sacrificing their child for the kingdom's sake. I wonder how many people, over the centuries, have injured or killed themselves over "if thine eye offend thee......if thy hand offend thee....". Would everyone who followed that directive be considered delusional? And how fanatical are the people that do crucifxions at easter time?
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Post by rational on Mar 29, 2013 13:55:15 GMT -5
Thanks. It seems there is no new thing under the sun!
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2013 14:24:25 GMT -5
I wonder how many people, over the centuries, have injured or killed themselves over "if thine eye offend thee......if thy hand offend thee....". Would everyone who followed that directive be considered delusional? And how fanatical are the people that do crucifxions at easter time? Fanatical is a good word for it. But when does fanaticism cross the line into mental illness? Or is all fanaticism mental illness? And who gets to make that determination?
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Post by ts on Mar 29, 2013 16:00:20 GMT -5
When an atheist is schizophrenic, does he hear God speaking to him?
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Post by sacerdotal on Mar 29, 2013 16:03:50 GMT -5
When an atheist is schizophrenic, does he hear God speaking to him? No, that would be delusional. An atheist is considered schizophrenic when he or she says that they are God and then then tell themselves to shut up because it is keeping, I, Napoleon, awake.
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Post by Happy Feet on Mar 29, 2013 16:19:24 GMT -5
Every action is preceded with a thought. Some might say God told them while others would not with it coming from their own thinking. If anyone kills someone because God told them to do it, are they more likely to be considered mentally ill, whereas someone who does it without God telling them might be more likely to be classed a criminal. Is that what I am picking up?
Others would say good thoughts are from God while bad thoughts are from the devil so if it is not God who told them to do it then it must be the devil. So either God told me to do it, or the devil told me to do it, or I told myself to do it. Does the world consist only of good and evil? I guess not, as our own free will comes into play too.
Re: quote from Rational in green: a mentally insane person is not a mentally challenged person. A mentally challenged person is one with a low IQ, or previously known as Mentally handicapped. Please do not confuse the two as it could be deemed an insult to a mentally challenged person.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 29, 2013 16:42:35 GMT -5
Every action is preceded with a thought. Some might say God told them while others would not with it coming from their own thinking. If anyone kills someone because God told them to do it, are they more likely to be considered mentally ill, whereas someone who does it without God telling them might be more likely to be classed a criminal. Is that what I am picking up? Others would say good thoughts are from God while bad thoughts are from the devil so if it is not God who told them to do it then it must be the devil. So either God told me to do it, or the devil told me to do it, or I told myself to do it. Does the world consist only of good and evil? I guess not, as our own free will comes into play too. Re: quote from Rational in green: a mentally insane person is not a mentally challenged person. A mentally challenged person is one with a low IQ, or previously known as Mentally handicapped. Please do not confuse the two as it could be deemed an insult to a mentally challenged person. Not an "insult" but a mistake.
Neither one, the mentally challenged person or the mentally ill person, is in control of how their brain is working!
Perhaps it is time, that just as we have stopped calling the mentally challenged person,"handicapped", we should quit the mentally ill "insane."
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Post by holdmyhand on Mar 29, 2013 17:04:25 GMT -5
How? And what reality? The man who feels god's calling and decides to become a preacher or the preacher who feels god's urging that he avail himself of a bit of comfort from that comely parishioner? What is the reality and what is the delusion? I doubt there's many preachers who feel God is urged them to avail themselves of a bit of comfort from that comely parishioner . They may try to justify themselves and say God understands why they let nature control them, but there actions of hidding and covering up suggest they know they have done wrong, and it was not of God. No delusion there
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Post by ts on Mar 29, 2013 17:11:18 GMT -5
When an atheist is schizophrenic, does he hear God speaking to him? No, that would be delusional. An atheist is considered schizophrenic when he or she says that they are God and then then tell themselves to shut up because it is keeping, I, Napoleon, awake. I think an atheist would lose his atheist membership if he were hearing God's voice. But an atheist does not consider a Christian to have lost his membership if he is hearing evil things and calling it God's voice.
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Post by dmmichgood on Mar 29, 2013 18:29:59 GMT -5
No, that would be delusional. An atheist is considered schizophrenic when he or she says that they are God and then then tell themselves to shut up because it is keeping, I, Napoleon, awake. I think an atheist would lose his atheist membership if he were hearing God's voice. But an atheist does not consider a Christian to have lost his membership if he is hearing evil things and calling it God's voice. ts, just wondering how you believe you know what an atheist thinks? ;D
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Post by snow on Mar 29, 2013 20:59:00 GMT -5
I would think if a person is hearing voices of any kind in their head, good or bad, god or the devil, that they are very likely delusional. My question is this: Is there a difference between what people feel when they think they are being guided by God and an auditory hallucination? Are those that are unable to differentiate between their own thoughts and thoughts they think come from another being the only ones that are dangerous?
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Post by ts on Mar 29, 2013 22:48:41 GMT -5
I think an atheist would lose his atheist membership if he were hearing God's voice. But an atheist does not consider a Christian to have lost his membership if he is hearing evil things and calling it God's voice. ts, just wondering how you believe you know what an atheist thinks? ;DThat is my thought not on each individual but on the atheist belief. I am proposing a conundrum for the atheist. If an atheist, who does not believe in the supernatural, suddenly starts hearing voices and believes it to be God, is he then still an atheist? Or can this not happen to an atheist? Are they exempt from such a mental condition? Or, borrowing from the "Alice's Restaurant" song, if an atheist on the "group W" bench are having a good time talking about how they do not believe in God and one of them says that he hears voices and believes it is God speaking, do all the atheists move away from him? Just wondering.
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Post by ts on Mar 29, 2013 22:57:14 GMT -5
I would think if a person is hearing voices of any kind in their head, good or bad, god or the devil, that they are very likely delusional. My question is this: Is there a difference between what people feel when they think they are being guided by God and an auditory hallucination? Are those that are unable to differentiate between their own thoughts and thoughts they think come from another being the only ones that are dangerous? That is a good question. I have wondered the same thing. I am sure that I have followed the wrong leadings spiritually from time to time. I don't hear audible voices. One thing that I did was listened to a bunch of testimonies. I made friends with people who were reasonable, sane people who claimed to have experiences with God. I looked at the fruit in their lives. I observed their compassion and such. That helped me to open up to hear the God that they were hearing. I wanted what they had/have. If they are a nutcase and do not show the fruits of the Spirit and claim to hear God, I take it with a grain of salt, if that. I might even wonder if they really are a Christian even though they may well claim to be a Christian. I suppose the same doubt would creep into your mind if a professed atheist started hearing voices from God. One might ask, "is he REALLY an atheist?"
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2013 23:23:37 GMT -5
Having a delusion doesn't necessarily mean you have mental illness even though some mental illnesses are characterized by delusions. A delusion is simply a falsely held belief. To atheists, all deists are delusional but not necessarily mentally ill.
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Post by snow on Mar 29, 2013 23:53:05 GMT -5
ts, just wondering how you believe you know what an atheist thinks? ;D That is my thought not on each individual but on the atheist belief. I am proposing a conundrum for the atheist. If an atheist, who does not believe in the supernatural, suddenly starts hearing voices and believes it to be God, is he then still an atheist? Or can this not happen to an atheist? Are they exempt from such a mental condition? Or, borrowing from the "Alice's Restaurant" song, if an atheist on the "group W" bench are having a good time talking about how they do not believe in God and one of them says that he hears voices and believes it is God speaking, do all the atheists move away from him? Just wondering. ts if an atheist ever became a schizophrenic and started to hear voices, it would that of Richard Dawkins!! lol Sorry jk
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