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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 14, 2013 22:53:45 GMT -5
Another laden word "bemoaning". dmmi wrote: All that tells you is that they (psychologists) know more about how and why people act the way that they do better than the average person. YES THEY CERTAINLY DO KNOW MORE THAN THE AVERAGE PERSONYou seem to be minimising the role of psychologists here. NODo you apply that to all professions or just psychologists? NODo you think that understanding human behavior is just a matter of reading some psychology books and journals? NOHow would you know for example when a person needs medication versus counselling - think of the damage that can be done when you might spend years listening to a person and trying to help then when it is a chemical imbalance? YES, I CERTINALLY DO KNOW. FROM FAMILY EXPERIENCES. You have no understanding of the extent and types of issues that psychologists deal with if you can say "All that tells you ......better than the average person." Would you say that about doctors for example? Getting to the root of some problems can take months or even years. SURE CANHow much empathy does the average person have month after month with the same person, how much insight into abuse issues does the average person have? LOTS & LOTSObserve the work of a psychologist for even a day and you will see what work they do when working with people. Many people have deep issues. VERY DEEP ISSUES.
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 14, 2013 22:56:02 GMT -5
Well at last we are in agreement! Meeting of the minds rather than a change in thinking wouldn't you think?
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 14, 2013 23:12:48 GMT -5
You have not answered the questions I asked you above. Are you planning to answer them?No I am not a 2x2. I see the 2x2 group as being the problem and still retain my belief in God. I have not thrown God out with the 2x2s. I do not see God as the problem but the 2x2 church. "b]Are you planning to answer them?[/b]" No, I'm not going to answer your questions .
I've stated many, many times on this board the process that I went though that caused me to arrive at the conclusion that I did.
I made one simple statement on this thread about how being raised in the "Truth" ( I simply don't like to use the term 2 by 2's- I prefer to use the term that I grew up hearing) how being raised that way was a major factor in what I now believe & you have jumped all over me with questions.
I suppose you are just reacting like a psychologist would. ;D
Of course I suspose it could also be viewed as your own desire to defend your own belief in a paranormal or supernatural being? Maybe? ;D
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 14, 2013 23:18:17 GMT -5
Well at last we are in agreement! Meeting of the minds rather than a change in thinking wouldn't you think? Meeting of the minds in agreement? Hardly. I was Just trying to untwist that twist that you had got your knickers into because you seemed to think that I was disparaging your job as a psychologist- I didn't even know that you were a psychologist.
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Post by emy on Apr 14, 2013 23:48:27 GMT -5
Well at last we are in agreement! Meeting of the minds rather than a change in thinking wouldn't you think? Meeting of the minds in agreement? Hardly. I was Just trying to untwist that twist that you had got your knickers into because you seemed to think that I was disparaging your job as a psychologist- I didn't even know that you were a psychologist.
OK... now back to whether calling Focus on the Family a hate group gives a writer any credibility.
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 14, 2013 23:56:27 GMT -5
I was pointing out that there are many factors that cause people to believe or not believe in God.
You said the 'truth' played a major part your present beliefs of which you have said is that of an atheist. I wondered how the 2x2s had played a major part in you coming to this conclusion as many of us who were 2x2s still believe in God. So I was interested in your view in how you felt it was a major part in you not believing in God.
I don't like calling the 2x2s the truth because I do not believe they are the truth. I don't like the term 2x2s either but I can go with it.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 15, 2013 1:17:22 GMT -5
I was pointing out that there are many factors that cause people to believe or not believe in God. You said the 'truth' played a major part your present beliefs of which you have said is that of an atheist. I wondered how the 2x2s had played a major part in you coming to this conclusion as many of us who were 2x2s still believe in God. So I was interested in your view in how you felt it was a major part in you not believing in God. I don't like calling the 2x2s the truth because I do not believe they are the truth. I don't like the term 2x2s either but I can go with it. I've told my story before.
I'm simply not telling it one more time to you.
It wasn't straight from the "Truth" to atheist- one evening I was one the next morning I woke up another.
What is your story?
If you really want to know, I think of you just got so far on your journey but couldn't give up your comfort blanket of a belief in Christianity completely, & just stopped there.
Maybe you are envious of some of us that could give up that comfortable soft, warm, feel good blanket. ;D
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 15, 2013 1:40:14 GMT -5
I asked a question about your experience and I get all kind of attacks back from you.
Spirituality is widely recognised in healing the whole person.
So you don't feel comfortable with your beliefs?
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 15, 2013 4:23:53 GMT -5
I asked a question about your experience and I get all kind of attacks back from you. Spirituality is widely recognised in healing the whole person. So you don't feel comfortable with your beliefs? You are putting words in my mouth I never said- I am perfectly comfortable with my beliefs.
Right at the beginning when I stated that maybe some psychology courses would help more that seminary courses.
I told you quite honestly how psychology had helped me and you started picking my story apart as if I didn't know what I was talking about.
Now you want me to tell it again, so you can pick it apart the second time?
Then You have the gall to tell me that I'm attacking you?
I don't need your Christian spirituality to be a "whole person.
I've never felt better in my life.
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Post by Grant on Apr 15, 2013 5:03:30 GMT -5
Meeting of the minds in agreement? Hardly. I was Just trying to untwist that twist that you had got your knickers into because you seemed to think that I was disparaging your job as a psychologist- I didn't even know that you were a psychologist.
OK... now back to whether calling Focus on the Family a hate group gives a writer any credibility. There are many people who hate Christians. I don't see Christian people as hating others, their motive although often wrongly displaced, is to save others so one can hardly call that hate.
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 15, 2013 5:46:12 GMT -5
I asked a question about your experience and I get all kind of attacks back from you. Spirituality is widely recognised in healing the whole person. So you don't feel comfortable with your beliefs? You are putting words in my mouth I never said- I am perfectly comfortable with my beliefs.
Right at the beginning when I stated that maybe some psychology courses would help more that seminary courses.
I told you quit honestly how psychology had helped me and you started picking my story apart as if I didn't know what I was talking about.
Now you want me to tell it again, so you can pick it apart the second time?
Then You have the gall to tell me that I'm attacking you?
I don't need your Christian spirituality to be a "whole person.
I've never felt better in my life.
You were the one who was making remarks about Christians not stepping out side their comfort zone. I was asking you a question, if you saw the question mark. I asked about you being comfortable in your beliefs, not ''perfectly' comfortable. I was not talking about Christian spirituality - I was talking about spirituality whatever peoples beliefs are. I never picked your story apart, I was interested to know how the 2x2s had made you an atheist when there were others who had left meetings and had not become atheists. I said there must be other factors involved as well and I was wondering what these other factors might be. That was not picking your story apart I was curious but you seem to take offense at that. I just wondered what the role it played in someone becoming an atheist compared to someone remaining a Christian after leaving the church. I can't see how that is attacking. What I am picking up is that you started questioning not just the 2x2s but outside that as well which if so, is good. I also questioned outside the box but am happy where I am and respect where you are at. I will not be pursuing this topic any further with you because you will twist around what I say and make out I am doing or saying something I am not. I have stated before that I admired your sharp mind and that you could hold your own with people a lot younger than you - or words to that effect and asked you what your secret was. I hope I am as sharp as you when I am your age. I mean that as a compliment.
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Post by quizzer on Apr 15, 2013 9:54:21 GMT -5
Interesting that your definition of God stems from one adjective which you frame in the most controversial usage imaginable. It is your god. I have often asked for a definition but none is forthcoming. If I have incorrectly defined your god I apologize and will await you definition to continue the discussion. Not sure I see the logic here. Oh, I am not pretending. But as I said, since I have heard a number of definitions theists apply to god I usually use the one most often stated. Why don't you provide a definition so that we can frame your god in a way you feel is appropriate. I don't. It flows from the definition I was using for god. Well, if they are not then they would come as a surprise to an omniscient being. I think we need to look at this using your definition of god. Your god is not all knowing? I await your definition. As I have stated, an All-Knowing God who perceives multiple choices in the future, aware that human free will can produce varied outcomes. Do you have a few websites that offer this hard-core predestination? It seems to have fallen by the wayside of mainstream Christianity.
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Post by rational on Apr 15, 2013 10:20:14 GMT -5
Rat, what are you ordained to do??? I never really questioned it! Since there is no instruction manual telling me what not to do I guess I can do anything. Of course, that is said to be true for everyone with faith!
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Post by rational on Apr 15, 2013 10:23:52 GMT -5
"...- I didn't even know that you were a psychologist." HappyFeet is a psychologist? Really? I didn't know that either. Maybe I can get help.
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Post by rational on Apr 15, 2013 10:27:03 GMT -5
There are many people who hate Christians. I don't see Christian people as hating others, their motive although often wrongly displaced, is to save others so one can hardly call that hate. Have you ever been force fed? You could hardly call it love.
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Post by rational on Apr 15, 2013 10:43:03 GMT -5
As I have stated, an All-Knowing God who perceives multiple choices in the future, aware that human free will can produce varied outcomes. And, by definition, the all knowing being knows what the final outcome will be. The choices may be many and varied but, at the end of the day, an omniscient being knows the final outcome - knows from the beginning if you are going to end up in heaven or hell. It is a discussion. Given that we are talking about a being that you cannot even prove exists what we are presenting is what we believe. I could cut and paste a lot about what others believe but you can look those up yourself. It seems you believe in an omniscient god but do not want her/him to know everything. Not sure how all "all knowing" and "not knowing" fit together.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 15, 2013 13:24:57 GMT -5
You are putting words in my mouth I never said- I am perfectly comfortable with my beliefs.
Right at the beginning when I stated that maybe some psychology courses would help more that seminary courses.
I told you quite honestly how psychology had helped me and you started picking my story apart as if I didn't know what I was talking about.
Now you want me to tell it again, so you can pick it apart the second time?
Then You have the gall to tell me that I'm attacking you?
I don't need your Christian spirituality to be a "whole person.
I've never felt better in my life.
You were the one who was making remarks about Christians not stepping out side their comfort zone. I was asking you a question, if you saw the question mark. I asked about you being comfortable in your beliefs, not ''perfectly' comfortable. I was not talking about Christian spirituality - I was talking about spirituality whatever peoples beliefs are. I never picked your story apart, I was interested to know how the 2x2s had made you an atheist when there were others who had left meetings and had not become atheists. I said there must be other factors involved as well and I was wondering what these other factors might be. That was not picking your story apart I was curious but you seem to take offense at that. I just wondered what the role it played in someone becoming an atheist compared to someone remaining a Christian after leaving the church. I can't see how that is attacking. What I am picking up is that you started questioning not just the 2x2s but outside that as well which if so, is good. I also questioned outside the box but am happy where I am and respect where you are at. I will not be pursuing this topic any further with you because you will twist around what I say and make out I am doing or saying something I am not. I have stated before that I admired your sharp mind and that you could hold your own with people a lot younger than you - or words to that effect and asked you what your secret was. I hope I am as sharp as you when I am your age. I mean that as a compliment. I am no more responsible for my "sharp" mind than I am for my height or color of my hair nor my wrinkles, what is real is real & that is how I have learned to view life, realistic- in fact being realistic is one of the reasons that I am an atheist. Here again is your post:So growing up in the 2x2s h as helped shape your thinking in to being an atheist?For others it has helped them shape their thinking into being a 2x2. What about those who have been brought up in the 2x2s who have remained Christians although they have left the 2x2s?
If our environment shapes our thinking (which as a psychologist I believe environment does have a big impact) then which way has growing up in the 2x2s shaped us? Don't you think there are many other factors? Some are able to see the 2x2 group as being the problem and still retain their belief in God but you have thrown God out with the 2x2s.For some being brought up in the 2x2s may have contributed to putting them off God while for others of us it has not put us off God as we see the problem as not being God but a controlling legalistic church. So there are other factors in our upbringing which affects us in different ways which shows there are also other factors involved. My environment did not put me off God only controlling religions.So how do you account for the fact that you do not believe in God but others of us do although we were all brought up in the 2x2s?Also being exposed to other info outside of the 2x2s has not put us off God.[/u] Don't you think our home life, genetic makeup and many other factors all contribute to the outcome? Many people are able to sift through the info. and see that God is not the problem but mans interpretation of God. Don't you think there are more factors involved. As you quoted physiological and neurobiological processes that underlie certain cognitive functions and behaviors." I do notice you said being raised in the 2x2s is a major factor not the only factor but I am pointing out that there are others raised in the 2x2s who still believe in God [/b]so how much did the 2x2s influence you in being an atheist seeing that many who have left still believe in God?
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Post by emy on Apr 15, 2013 14:27:33 GMT -5
... Here again is your post:So growing up in the 2x2s h as helped shape your thinking in to being an atheist?For others it has helped them shape their thinking into being a 2x2. What about those who have been brought up in the 2x2s who have remained Christians although they have left the 2x2s?
[/i] If our environment shapes our thinking (which as a psychologist I believe environment does have a big impact) then which way has growing up in the 2x2s shaped us? Don't you think there are many other factors? Some are able to see the 2x2 group as being the problem and still retain their belief in God but you have thrown God out with the 2x2s.For some being brought up in the 2x2s may have contributed to putting them off God while for others of us it has not put us off God as we see the problem as not being God but a controlling legalistic church. So there are other factors in our upbringing which affects us in different ways which shows there are also other factors involved. My environment did not put me off God only controlling religions.So how do you account for the fact that you do not believe in God but others of us do although we were all brought up in the 2x2s?Also being exposed to other info outside of the 2x2s has not put us off God.[/u] Don't you think our home life, genetic makeup and many other factors all contribute to the outcome? ... As you quoted physiological and neurobiological processes that underlie certain cognitive functions and behaviors." I do notice you said being raised in the 2x2s is a major factor not the only factor but I am pointing out that there are others raised in the 2x2s who still believe in God [/b]so how much did the 2x2s influence you in being an atheist seeing that many who have left still believe in God?
You seem to feel because you & others left but still were Christian that something was wrong with me for completing the journey to becoming an atheist.
And as I read it, you seem to be telling HF that HER journey is not complete even though she expresses satisfaction with where she is.
It seems it would be easier to see that there ARE other factors which contribute to being an atheist. Would you deny that?
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 15, 2013 14:48:26 GMT -5
... Here again is your post:So growing up in the 2x2s h as helped shape your thinking in to being an atheist?For others it has helped them shape their thinking into being a 2x2. What about those who have been brought up in the 2x2s who have remained Christians although they have left the 2x2s?
[/i] If our environment shapes our thinking (which as a psychologist I believe environment does have a big impact) then which way has growing up in the 2x2s shaped us? Don't you think there are many other factors? Some are able to see the 2x2 group as being the problem and still retain their belief in God but you have thrown God out with the 2x2s.For some being brought up in the 2x2s may have contributed to putting them off God while for others of us it has not put us off God as we see the problem as not being God but a controlling legalistic church. So there are other factors in our upbringing which affects us in different ways which shows there are also other factors involved. My environment did not put me off God only controlling religions.So how do you account for the fact that you do not believe in God but others of us do although we were all brought up in the 2x2s?Also being exposed to other info outside of the 2x2s has not put us off God.[/u] Don't you think our home life, genetic makeup and many other factors all contribute to the outcome? ... As you quoted physiological and neurobiological processes that underlie certain cognitive functions and behaviors." I do notice you said being raised in the 2x2s is a major factor not the only factor but I am pointing out that there are others raised in the 2x2s who still believe in God [/b]so how much did the 2x2s influence you in being an atheist seeing that many who have left still believe in God?
You seem to feel because you & others left but still were Christian that something was wrong with me for completing the journey to becoming an atheist.
And as I read it, you seem to be telling HF that HER journey is not complete even though she expresses satisfaction with where she is.
It seems it would be easier to see that there ARE other factors which contribute to being an atheist. Would you deny that?[/quote] Well read it however you like.
First she questioned why I thought a few courses in psychology rather that seminary courses would help us understand why we believed in certain religious beliefs.
When I explained how psychology had helped me in that regard, she gave that long post that I've shown.
As if she were denying that psychology would help that because there were Christian psychologists, and kept asking how being in the "Truth" had made me become an atheist.
as if she wants from me validation that being in the "Truth" was the cause of my becoming an atheist.
She seems to not want to believe her own vocation, psychology, would help me in becoming an atheist- that somehow it was because I came out of the "Truth."
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 15, 2013 15:08:00 GMT -5
Dmmi wrote: You seem to feel because you & others left but still were Christian that something was wrong with me for completing the journey to becoming an atheist.
I never mentioned seminary courses, I didn't even take note of that in your post. One minute you are saying it was the 2x2s that was a major factor in you becoming an atheist now you are saying that I would not accept it was psychology. I was saying the opposite to what you are saying I said, I said there are other factors in our environment that contribute to our decisions and that being in meeting would not have likely been the only one.
I never suggested that something was wrong with you for becoming an atheist. That is your interpretation, not what I had written or suggested.
I was interested to know the difference between someone who had become an atheist and some one who had not although we had all/both been brought up in the 2x2s. Looking at other variables that influence our different decisions is not saying something is wrong with you because your choice is different from mine. I love the uniqueness and individuality of humans and have always maintained that it would be a boring world if everyone was the same as me.
I believe our family environment plays a part in our later decisions too. My mother was a liberal thinker inspite of being professing and was always 'trying to do better'. I can fully understand how growing up in meetings can turn a person off God but then I was picking up that you were not 'turned off God' in that regard but that you looked out side that and saw things done in the name of God which also led you to the conclusion about God. Because we reached different conclusions I am not saying one is right and the other is wrong, just that the outcome was different and I was interested in knowing how we reached those different outcomes. .
The long post that you claim I wrote was actually shorter than the one of yours I was responding to.
Back into my cave, as I said I would not respond.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 15, 2013 17:30:47 GMT -5
Dmmi wrote: You seem to feel because you & others left but still were Christian that something was wrong with me for completing the journey to becoming an atheist. I never mentioned seminary courses, I didn't even take note of that post. One minute you are saying it was the 2x2s that was a major factor in you becoming an atheist now you are saying that I would not accept it was psychology. I was saying the opposite to what you are saying I said, I said there are other factors in our environment that contribute to our decisions and that being in meeting would not have likely been the only one. I never suggested that something was wrong with you for becoming an atheist. That is your interpretation, not what I had written or suggested. I was interested to know the difference between someone who had become an atheist and some one who had not although we had all/both been brought up in the 2x2s. Looking at other variables that influence our different decisions is not saying something is wrong with you because your choice is different from mine. I love the uniqueness and individuality of humans and have always maintained that it would be a boring world if everyone was the same as me. I believe our family environment plays a part in our later decisions too. My mother was a liberal thinker inspite of being professing and was always 'trying to do better'. I can fully understand how growing up in meetings can turn a person off God but then I was picking up that you were not 'turned off God' in that regard but that you looked out side that and saw things done in the name of God which also led you to the conclusion about God. Because we reached different conclusions I am not saying one is right and the other is wrong, just that the outcome was different and I was interested in knowing how we reached those different outcomes. . The long post that you claim I wrote was actually shorter than the one of yours I was responding to. Back into my cave, as I said I would not respond. This is what I posted:(post #339)
"The study of Psychology helped me to understand why people believe & act the way that they do, how they are affected by their conditioning through their environment- with me because I was born & raised in the "TRUTH" being a major factor.
By understanding why I believed what I believed, I could see the fallacy of my thinking & the harm that it was doing, not only to myself, bu t my family as well.
In the broader sense, I was able to extrapolate that to all humankind and understand better the horrors that religious beliefs caused though out history." This is what you just posted that I said: Tell me where I even mentioned Atheist in that post? "One minute you are saying it was the 2x2s that was a major factor in you becoming an atheis-"
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 15, 2013 19:22:09 GMT -5
You related this to religious beliefs - and you have often stated what your beliefs were regarding being an atheist. So I expanded this to the different outcomes of our religious beliefs given that we had both been brought up in the 2x2s.
Now 45 posts later you decide that is not what you are talking about? You had 45 posts to correct this. The topic of this thread is about serving God.
Like I said, I am no longer interested in this discussion.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 15, 2013 20:36:15 GMT -5
You related this to religious beliefs - and you have often stated what your beliefs were regarding being an atheist. So I expanded this to the different outcomes of our religious beliefs given that we had both been brought up in the 2x2s. Now 45 posts later you decide that is not what you are talking about? You had 45 posts to correct this. The topic of this thread is about serving God. Like I said, I am no longer interested in this discussion. So you just "EXPANDED" my statement to make it be that it was the "2by2's" (if you want to call them that - I don't) that caused me to be an "atheist!"
I haven't just "decided that is not what I am talking about," because that was never what I was talking about!
And I've tried for 45 posts to get you to understand what I was talking about! and you haven't understood it yet!
And the topic was not about "serving" god, our discussion, at least with me, was the subject of how psychology had helped me to changed the way I thought about religion. Now, if you are no longer "interested" in this discussion, by all means go on back to your cave that you mentioned!
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Post by quizzer on Apr 16, 2013 17:07:07 GMT -5
As I have stated, an All-Knowing God who perceives multiple choices in the future, aware that human free will can produce varied outcomes. And, by definition, the all knowing being knows what the final outcome will be. The choices may be many and varied but, at the end of the day, an omniscient being knows the final outcome - knows from the beginning if you are going to end up in heaven or hell. It is a discussion. Given that we are talking about a being that you cannot even prove exists what we are presenting is what we believe. I could cut and paste a lot about what others believe but you can look those up yourself. It seems you believe in an omniscient god but do not want her/him to know everything. Not sure how all "all knowing" and "not knowing" fit together. Provide your sources, rational.
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Post by rational on Apr 16, 2013 20:04:24 GMT -5
Provide your sources, rational. Sources for what? A logical conclusion? If you believe your god to be omniscient then that being knows every choice you will make. Knows where you will end up. Of course, I am just guessing how you define your god. For this discussion perhaps you can explain if your god is omniscient. And then we can move forward from there, looking at just that attribute.
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Post by quizzer on Apr 19, 2013 10:20:35 GMT -5
Provide your sources, rational. Sources for what? A logical conclusion? If you believe your god to be omniscient then that being knows every choice you will make. Knows where you will end up. Of course, I am just guessing how you define your god. For this discussion perhaps you can explain if your god is omniscient. And then we can move forward from there, looking at just that attribute. Interesting. You have your definition of God. How does this correspond with your being an atheist, someone who doesn't believe that God exists?
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 19, 2013 13:25:01 GMT -5
Sources for what? A logical conclusion? If you believe your god to be omniscient then that being knows every choice you will make. Knows where you will end up. Of course, I am just guessing how you define your god. For this discussion perhaps you can explain if your god is omniscient. And then we can move forward from there, looking at just that attribute. Interesting. You have your definition of God. How does this correspond with your being an atheist, someone who doesn't believe that God exists? Where Did rational give his "definition" of god?
Sounded like he was just asking you for your "definition" of god.
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Post by rational on Apr 20, 2013 0:08:49 GMT -5
Sources for what? A logical conclusion? If you believe your god to be omniscient then that being knows every choice you will make. Knows where you will end up. Of course, I am just guessing how you define your god. For this discussion perhaps you can explain if your god is omniscient. And then we can move forward from there, looking at just that attribute. Interesting. You have your definition of God. How does this correspond with your being an atheist, someone who doesn't believe that God exists? I don't have a definition of god other than the common one found in any dictionary. You seem reluctant to offer a definition of your god? Is your god all knowing or do your choices come as a complete surprise?
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