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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 9, 2013 21:38:25 GMT -5
No one. Why? Because there is absolutely no proof that is the case. Or that it is not. I guess you, as an individual, may be extinct but I think the discussion was focused on the extinction of a species. And that may well be the case for homo sapiens. I would say that is a good thing for you because death and extinction are things that happen and, if you think a paranormal being is running things, they would have to have death and extinction, as well as everything else that happens, in their plan. That being the case, how do you feel about the god's plan that some children are to be abused and, in some cases, tortured and killed? dmminchgood said it: here is the quote from her post:"If god is a MASTER DESIGNER & he is om·ni·scient: possessed of universal or complete knowledge , shouldn't he/she have made everything right the first time since he/she had "complete" knowledge to do so? What he/she created would have been so perfect that it wouldn't become extinct?"
As for pain and suffering God gave humans a free will and the Bible is clear that sin is present in the world. God never said there would not be sin or pain. The Bible is full of murder, abuse and everything else that humans do. God made no secret of that and we know there is a lot more suffering to come. God never said that pain and suffering was not a part of his plan. God gave humans and the devil full reign but he also gave humans a free will to choose. There will always be evil people whose behavior affects others. Suffering and the survival of the fittest takes place in most species and who said that is not a part of God's plan. He was clear in the creation story that this would occur. If you want a perfect world you are in the wrong place. The perfect world is yet to come, this life is only the testing or preparation ground. He is God and who can understand his mind. you know that "free will' thing is just a buzz word!
The only thing that concept is good for is too rationalize & let that ornery old wrathful god off the hook! ;D
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 9, 2013 22:38:31 GMT -5
No I do not believe in reincarnation. I was joking.
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Post by Happy Feet on Apr 9, 2013 22:40:30 GMT -5
Ok dmmichgood, do you believe you have a free will or does something else control you? Like do you blame someone else for everything wrong you do or do you believe you are responsible for the things you do?
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Post by rational on Apr 9, 2013 23:19:19 GMT -5
Extinction comes as the result of death. While true in some very small part, organisms die every day and don't become extinct. Sometimes they become extinct simply because they decide to stop having sex!
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 9, 2013 23:29:56 GMT -5
Ok dmmichgood, do you believe you have a free will or does something else control you? Like do you blame someone else for everything wrong you do or do you believe you are responsible for the things you do? What controls the way I act is I try to empathize with other people & all living creatures & the earth as a whole.
I try to empathize with others & understand why they think the way that they do & I try to act with understanding & tolerance accordingly, however, that doesn't always happens as you well can see.
I try to understand why people who once were in the "truth" can leave that frying pan of control & just jump into the fire of another equally controlling religion.
However, at times I have a difficult time empathizing with that.
To me, it is like they just traded one control for another or got stalled along the way to seeing just how controlling any & all religions really are and that buzz word "Free Will," where they try to rationalize what they want t believe just gets to me at times.
All anyone needs do is look at the history of religion, how it came about & why people need to believe in some kind of supernatural being as well as to look at all the damage belief in such a being has caused through out the history & they should realize that they & everyone & everything else would be better off without such a belief.
But I am not holding my breath waiting for that day.
Should it even ever happen, I'll be long gone & just ashes blowing in the wind.
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Post by quizzer on Apr 10, 2013 10:11:37 GMT -5
Though God is All-Knowing, human free will is highly unpredictable. I place pollution in one of these human choice places. God can't guard us against all the crazy things we human choose to do and do in large quantities. Hey, quizzer! How about all those things that went extinct before we ever even appeared on the scene?Hey, if those species hadn't gone extinct, us humans would have been appetizers. It might have been the allosaurus who invented ketchup.
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Post by quizzer on Apr 10, 2013 10:14:19 GMT -5
Free will was chosen by humans, and God's been making His peace with it even since. Are you limiting the impact that free will has had on the relationship between humans and God? No. I am looking at two words you wrote that deny the power of god - "God can't". Of course, I could be way out of line here if your god is not omnipotent and omniscient. People have so many definitions for their god(s) that I should have asked first. Do you have free will if god knows everything you are going to do? Could be an interesting discussion. For that matter, if god knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen, god does not have a lot of latitude. If your god is omniscient does that limit his/her activities? I think you're reading "God can't" and I'm intending "God won't." God won't force us to choose Him as our God, and God won't force us to serve Him. As an atheist, you're proof of this. As far as this being a great topic for philosophical debate, it is and has been ever since Christianity began. Probably since the beginning of Judaism, too. Great insight, there.
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Post by snow on Apr 10, 2013 10:52:26 GMT -5
No I do not believe in reincarnation. I was joking. Thanks HF
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 10, 2013 15:25:00 GMT -5
No. I am looking at two words you wrote that deny the power of god - "God can't". Of course, I could be way out of line here if your god is not omnipotent and omniscient. People have so many definitions for their god(s) that I should have asked first. Do you have free will if god knows everything you are going to do? Could be an interesting discussion. For that matter, if god knows everything that has happened and everything that will happen, god does not have a lot of latitude. If your god is omniscient does that limit his/her activities? I think you're reading " God can't" and I'm intending " God won't." God won't force us to choose Him as our God, and God won't force us to serve Him. As an atheist, you're proof of this. As far as this being a great topic for philosophical debate, it is and has been ever since Christianity began. Probably since the beginning of Judaism, too. Great insight, there. and maybe he is reading it just like you wrote it?
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Post by rational on Apr 11, 2013 14:19:52 GMT -5
I think you're reading "God can't" and I'm intending "God won't." I was just reading the words you wrote. This is not really the issue. God, assuming an omniscient god, knows everything you are going to do. The die has been cast and the outcome is known. How is this free will?
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Post by quizzer on Apr 11, 2013 16:43:54 GMT -5
I think you're reading "God can't" and I'm intending "God won't." I was just reading the words you wrote. This is not really the issue. God, assuming an omniscient god, knows everything you are going to do. The die has been cast and the outcome is known. How is this free will? So you're giving God the credit for you being an atheist?
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 11, 2013 18:49:46 GMT -5
I was just reading the words you wrote. This is not really the issue. God, assuming an omniscient god, knows everything you are going to do. The die has been cast and the outcome is known. How is this free will? So you're giving God the credit for you being an atheist? I can't answer for Rational, but I give a lack of god credit for me being an atheist! ;D
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Post by rational on Apr 11, 2013 20:46:07 GMT -5
I was just reading the words you wrote. This is not really the issue. God, assuming an omniscient god, knows everything you are going to do. The die has been cast and the outcome is known. How is this free will? So you're giving God the credit for you being an atheist? Nope. I am just trying to work out how anyone thinks there is free will given the usual definition of god. But, if there were an omniscient omnipotent god who had created the universe and was in charge then yes, that god would get the credit and the blame for everything that happens.
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Post by quizzer on Apr 12, 2013 9:22:17 GMT -5
So you're giving God the credit for you being an atheist? Nope. I am just trying to work out how anyone thinks there is free will given the usual definition of god. But, if there were an omniscient omnipotent god who had created the universe and was in charge then yes, that god would get the credit and the blame for everything that happens. Why do you believe that God would ask us to "serve" Him and to "choose" His ways if we, as part of His creation, were unable to make choices?
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Post by rational on Apr 12, 2013 10:42:36 GMT -5
Nope. I am just trying to work out how anyone thinks there is free will given the usual definition of god. But, if there were an omniscient omnipotent god who had created the universe and was in charge then yes, that god would get the credit and the blame for everything that happens. Why do you believe that God would ask us to "serve" Him and to "choose" His ways if we, as part of His creation, were unable to make choices? S/he is your god and you know how s/he is defined. I am not saying that god is doing anything but knowing exactly what choices you are going to make every moment of your life. Assuming your beliefs are correct, god already knows whether you will end up in hell or heaven. And knew before you were born. It flies in the face of free choice.
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Post by snow on Apr 12, 2013 11:47:51 GMT -5
Why do you believe that God would ask us to "serve" Him and to "choose" His ways if we, as part of His creation, were unable to make choices? S/he is your god and you know how s/he is defined. I am not saying that god is doing anything but knowing exactly what choices you are going to make every moment of your life. Assuming your beliefs are correct, god already knows whether you will end up in hell or heaven. And knew before you were born. It flies in the face of free choice. Does it? Isn't there a difference between knowing and preventing or interfering? I might know that my child will burn himself by putting his hand on the stove that is red hot, but I can decide not to interfere and allow them to do what they want. Just because I know they're going to do it and I know they will burn themselves doesn't mean I need to stop them. (Though as a mom I obviously would). But that's a whole different subject on God and free will. Why he allows us to make bad choices and then lets us suffer from them when he's all powerful and all merciful and could prevent it.
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Post by rational on Apr 12, 2013 13:59:52 GMT -5
Does it? Isn't there a difference between knowing and preventing or interfering? I might know that my child will burn himself by putting his hand on the stove that is red hot, but I can decide not to interfere and allow them to do what they want. That's a good question. Just because god already knows whether you will be going to heaven or hell neither of you can change the outcome. If god changes it then, being omniscient, s/he would have known that the change would be taking place. Sort of like watching a movie - the villain will always be the villain no matter how many times you watch the movie. No one has free choice. Of course, you could argue that they had free choice. But when?
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Post by snow on Apr 12, 2013 14:53:21 GMT -5
Does it? Isn't there a difference between knowing and preventing or interfering? I might know that my child will burn himself by putting his hand on the stove that is red hot, but I can decide not to interfere and allow them to do what they want. That's a good question. Just because god already knows whether you will be going to heaven or hell neither of you can change the outcome. If god changes it then, being omniscient, s/he would have known that the change would be taking place. Sort of like watching a movie - the villain will always be the villain no matter how many times you watch the movie. No one has free choice. Of course, you could argue that they had free choice. But when? Maybe God doesn't have free choice either. Or, maybe we all have free choice and it really doesn't matter what we do. Or maybe it's like we see in reality, people do what they want and are really only accountable to the circumstances of man made laws or the natural laws of the universe. ie don't jump off tall buildings without a parachute if you don't want to die!
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Post by Jason Storebo on Apr 12, 2013 16:54:01 GMT -5
We are, each of us, like unto individual cells, which when all combined, comprise the wholeness of God's being. What's so hard about that?
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Post by Jason Storebo on Apr 12, 2013 17:06:02 GMT -5
Think of God as being less anthropomorphic (personal, manlike), and being more of an energy/body. God, is experiencing itself from all possible angles, with all kinds of possible outcomes...in which evolution and growth are experienced through both physical, as well as through spiritual evolution through reincarnation...karma being, of course, the impersonal Law of God.
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Post by Jason Storebo on Apr 12, 2013 17:14:51 GMT -5
There are not now, nor have there ever been, a chosen people. Whether that claim be applied to the Israelites, of olden times, or to the 2x2 group of modern times, none of Man's religions can truly claim to be God's only true way. Metaphysical & spiritual reality are one thing, and Man's religious creations are another. Do not be fooled.
Jesus came to show that he, and we, are alike in that we are equally sons and daughters of God. Jesus said that we all can become like him, & indeed to do even greater things.
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Post by Jason Storebo on Apr 12, 2013 17:30:31 GMT -5
Just think, if reincarnation is a fact...we'd better take a lot better care of our environment since we'll likely be returning to it. For better or for worse, the law of cause-and-effect, Karma, beautifully exemplifies God's perfect justice one-hundred percent.
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Post by quizzer on Apr 13, 2013 1:11:22 GMT -5
Why do you believe that God would ask us to "serve" Him and to "choose" His ways if we, as part of His creation, were unable to make choices? S/he is your god and you know how s/he is defined. I am not saying that god is doing anything but knowing exactly what choices you are going to make every moment of your life. Assuming your beliefs are correct, god already knows whether you will end up in hell or heaven. And knew before you were born. It flies in the face of free choice. Do you honestly believe that your life is not filled with your choices? I find it interesting that you would claim an All-knowing, All-present God would have only one outcome for our lives, and claim to know it all along. I don't see this in the Bible. Usually, God has an intended outcome and humans make different decisions all along the way. That's why God places such emphasis on teaching the law in the Old Testament and writing the law on our hearts in the New Testament. Our free will is often at odds with what God wants. Y'know, this hard-core predestination with no alternatives was a real sticky point for Calvinism. It's been addressed many times through the years because it really rankles with Christianity. Why are you so dead set on using absolute predestination as the only way to describe God's relationship with His followers?
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 13, 2013 16:33:47 GMT -5
No one has free will as long as a god can say, "oh, you have free will to do what you want, BUT, if you don't do it my way, I'll throw you into a big fire & get rid of you." ;D
That way, whatever happens is the fault to the person & not the fault of the god!
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Post by snow on Apr 13, 2013 17:11:01 GMT -5
No one has free will as long as a god can say, "oh, you have free will to do what you want, BUT, if you don't do it my way, I'll throw you into a big fire & get rid of you." ;D
That way, whatever happens is the fault to the person & not the fault of the god! Exactly. God gives free will, makes humans so that they are not likely to want to serve him, then says if they disobey they get to go to hell for eternity. That is not free will and it makes one wonder about that loving, forgiving and merciful part too.
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Post by dmmichgood on Apr 13, 2013 18:28:28 GMT -5
priests, shamans, witch doctors, etc. - down through history, every since humans have had brains large enough & complex enough to remember their past, realize their presence in the here & now, and speculate about their future from the experiences in their past; the priests shamans etc. have used that speculation to control the people .
That is just the way it happened.
That was just the way those priests, etc. worked, & they still do.
As long as people don't realize & admit this, they will continue to be controlled by the myths of their ancestors.
They might just as well forget "free will". They don't have it.
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Post by rational on Apr 13, 2013 21:21:22 GMT -5
Do you honestly believe that your life is not filled with your choices? Are we talking about me or you? Remember, I do not believe in a being that, in addition to creating and controlling the universe, is also omniscient and omnipotent. My life is filled with choices that I make and for which I am totally responsible. It is a logical deduction. If you are all knowing you know everything. That includes all past, present, and future events. Since being omniscient is one of the traits of our god, it stands to reason that your god knows the outcome of your life. What you are saying contradicts the attributes of an omniscient being. Saying that god does not know the outcome limits the power of god. Are you trying to say that god does not know the outcome of your life? It all flows from your definition of god. Maybe it would be better if your god was not omniscient but simply did not know everything.
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Post by quizzer on Apr 13, 2013 23:16:26 GMT -5
Do you honestly believe that your life is not filled with your choices? Are we talking about me or you? Remember, I do not believe in a being that, in addition to creating and controlling the universe, is also omniscient and omnipotent. My life is filled with choices that I make and for which I am totally responsible. It is a logical deduction. If you are all knowing you know everything. That includes all past, present, and future events. Since being omniscient is one of the traits of our god, it stands to reason that your god knows the outcome of your life. What you are saying contradicts the attributes of an omniscient being. Saying that god does not know the outcome limits the power of god. Are you trying to say that god does not know the outcome of your life? It all flows from your definition of god. Maybe it would be better if your god was not omniscient but simply did not know everything. Interesting that your definition of God stems from one adjective which you frame in the most controversial usage imaginable. Nice work, as it does make atheism look like a good choice. It's not just enough to pretend God doesn't exist, but you need to frame God in such a way that we, as humans, would prefer that it would be better if God didn't exist? What I find amazing is that you find only one set of choices possible for a human lifetime. These choices are made the same way, always. Sort of like using hindsight rather than foresight, but hey...again, a great way to show that it would be better for God not to exist. So, congratulations on all this but you might want to take a few more seminary courses. See, your definition of All-Knowing limits God in many ways. It shows a detached God who could care less about His creation. There's no need for repentance, forgiveness, salvation, choice, or anything of the stuff we read in the Bible. After all, from your definition, we're all cogs in the wheel just going through the motions until we die. Again, nice job, as it places God in a box. On the other hand, I find All-Knowing to mean that God understands that humans have free will. It was a shock with Him to find that humans could be tempted and would choose not to have companionship with Him. As a result, God does understand this occurs. He does not force us to serve Him - He simply waits for us to choose Him. He will draw us to Him, understanding that some need more persuasion than others. To me, this makes God more loving and patient - far larger than your god in a box.
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