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Post by Ken Coolidge on Jul 11, 2007 7:20:16 GMT -5
God led us out when he opened our eyes to: Deception on history Judgementalism Conditional Love
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Post by why stay on Jul 11, 2007 7:36:14 GMT -5
I am just curious as to why you chose (or were asked) to not go to meetings. Was it because of people in the meetings? Was it because of your relationship with God? If you could just leave a short answer. I am curious. Why do you suggest answers, instead of just letting the question stand? Why stay in meetings?
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sms
Junior Member
Posts: 68
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Post by sms on Jul 11, 2007 11:46:56 GMT -5
sms, What was that mess in Montana? I'm not sure I can fully answer. I can tell parts of what I do know - but I think it may have been peripheral to the REAL issues. At the time, I was just a college student. I know that in the home I lived in, there was a meeting that these folks attended. They were wonderful, kind people. In conversations over the course of a couple of years, I learned that they believed in the trinity, which, of course, is viewed as false doctrine in the 2 x 2 faith. They had had a relative in the work who had been asked to leave because he had been preaching the same thing - I don't know from which state/field this occurred or when - it was before my time in the area, though. I believe at one point I was asked to be circumspect in my conversations with their daughter as they (the elders) didn't know how she felt. They (the couple) never spoke of this belief (to my knowledge) in the meetings, and I certainly did not have conversations with anyone about their beliefs. I left the area to go to a new job, and I just never suspected it was an issue. I know they were spoken to by the workers - but I couldn't say which workers or what was discussed. In my experiences (B&R 2 x 2), I had known some who had been asked not to take part in meetings, but were still welcome to come (for other "transgressions" such as re-marriage, adultery). So - I arrived to my friend's wedding and stayed with her parents. I was wondering why they were taking so long to get ready to go to the meeting. The mom took me aside and looked at me and basically said "Didn't you hear? We aren't going to meeting with you." I don't recall how it was expressed exactly - but it was clear they weren't ALLOWED to come. I talked with them briefly, and they were still meeting together, just the two of them, so I went ahead and went with the daughter, her new husband, and her brother to the meeting. Later I was told they weren't even allowed to come to the gospel meetings. I don't know what transpired b/w the couple and the workers, to be fair. But I do know that THEY felt this was the only right way, and I felt like it was a horrible thing to tell them "You're no longer welcome." I don't know if they were central to the "Mess in Montana" that required the movement of several workers (See the TLT website) but the time frame is about right, and I DO know that the elders were unhappy the couple was removed from their meeting, although not much was said about the situation. (Maybe if we don't talk about it, it doesn't exist.) If others here know more about the situation, please feel free to enlighten us further. I'm trying to be circumspect about names and places, as I still correspond with several of those involved, and I still care deeply about all of these folks.
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Post by Jessi on Jul 11, 2007 22:18:17 GMT -5
Leaving the cult was not as difficult . . . as getting the cult out of me.
But Jesus is transforming me by a renewing of my mind, by washing me in the water of the Word.
He makes all things new.
There is none like Him.
Christ's Forever,
Jessi
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Post by leave me knot on Jul 12, 2007 2:45:50 GMT -5
Why stay?
There seems no good reason to leave. There are reasons that some have said caused them to leave, but for me those are not good reasons.
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_
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Post by _ on Jul 12, 2007 4:33:15 GMT -5
There seems no good reason to leave. I left due to the false teachings and beliefs that were being upheld and promoted... below is a short list of some of these teachings... If you want to spend the rest of your life being preached such falsehoods, then be my guest... Denial of the Triune God Denial of the the deity of Jesus Denial of eternal security Denial of salvation being a unconditional free gift of God Belief the 2x2 fellowship is God's ONLY true way; therefore, all other church members, preachers, churches and religions are "false". Belief salvation comes by grace AND works (self-effort) Belief salvation is not possible without being in their fellowship Belief sanctification comes BEFORE justification Belief the bible commands/teaches believers to worship in homes Belief the bible commands/teaches preaches to be homeless and go out in pairs Belief women should only wear skirts/dresses Belief the bible condemns worshiping in buildings
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Post by Because on Jul 12, 2007 5:07:45 GMT -5
1. I left because I realized that many of my Christian friends in "worldly churches" had better Christian morals then many of my friends in the truth. They were truly living a Christian life. Not just looking a look while around meeting people. At other times they were drinking, smoking, going clubbing or to parties, and having pre marital sex.
Its funny how we always here about worldly Christians only going to church Sunday.... Yet many of my friends in the friends and workers only played the part while in meetings.
It really struck me as odd when a friend of mine who is atheist had better morals then many of my meeting friends.
Not only did I feel that many of my friends in the truth were living a double life, I felt like they were wearing mask as well. They were afraid to be themselves. They did not want to be authentic but preferred to wear masks. Why would any human want to appear perfect, when we know we are all sinners. Why are they so afraid to admit their sin. You are fooling no one by trying to appear to be something you are not. You are definitely not fooling god. To me it makes more sense to admit ones sins, and to pray about them. Not attempt to hid them.
2. There seemed to be a lack of brotherly love and forgiveness.
Gossip is ungodly. God does not like busy bodies with idling words. Gossip hurts people. Gossip is rampant in meetings. Not only is it rampant, but it is not even seen as a bad thing. There are people who are held in high regard in meetings, who are serial gossipers hurting people. This has never made sense to me.
People who slip up or going through hard times are looked down on. They are seen as failing or having a bad spirit. Not only do people not try to help, but gossip about their misfortune. I would think if the friends and workers were truly Christian they would come together as a church who loves its members and try to help the less fortunate or those who seem to be struggling. Not hit them when their down.
I have seen to many friends and workers hitting people when their down. This is not Christian in any sense or manner.
3. They seem closed in on themselves.
If this was a truly living way, spreading the living word of Christ. One would expect to see life and fruit. And I have hardly seen any life being produced in my 20 years professing. I have seen the odd occasional friend bring one of the work or school friends to meeting (or boyfriend/girlfriend) but do not see the life and fruit one might expect when spreading the true gospel of Christ. It just seemed dead.
It really seemed odd when they demanded we stop taking notes and distributing them. Or when they refused to print meeting lists. "They might fall into the wrong hands".... If this is the true way and we are following Christs. First we would not hide ourselves. Secondly we would not care what the world can do onto us because he that is with us is stronger them him that is against us.
4. I don't believe in exclusivity of the friends and workers. I believe in the exclusivity of those who except Christ as their lord and savior and worship him in spirit and truth.
Christ does not dwell in building built with mens hands. This includes the home. He dwells with in us. He is all around us. It isn't about how or where we worship, it is about worshiping Christ in spirit and truth. PERIOD.
5. Then their was workers who were prideful, worker worship, respecting of persons (wealthy), etc. Non of this is Christian spirit.
Jesus told us we would know his followers by their spirit. It took me a time to realize that their spirit was not right. I want to fellowship with people who have the spirit of Christ. People who realize they are sinners and no better then anyone else. People who realize that the only reason we can come to the hope of salvation is because of the grace of god and the sacrifice of his son. It is not anything we do. It has nothing to do with how good of people we are. Because we are all sinners and vile. We are only made acceptable because of Christ.
They are like the pharisees who went before god and said thank god I am not like them. But am good and acceptable to you.
When we should all be like the publican going before god saying. WE are vile and disgusting. Nothing we do in our own selves is acceptable to you. We are all sinners. But becuase of your son we can be made acceptable and come to you. We can have a hope of salvation through you son.
I only found out about the lies and corruption after god had shown me that this was not the right way, and his spirit was not there.
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Post by Lenny P on Jul 12, 2007 10:34:33 GMT -5
There seems no good reason to leave. I left due to the false teachings and beliefs that were being upheld and promoted... below is a short list of some of these teachings... If you want to spend the rest of your life being preached such falsehoods, then be my guest... In 35 years I never encountered any of these supposed teachings. What country are you in that has this? Denial of the Triune God Denial of the the deity of Jesus Denial of eternal security Denial of salvation being a unconditional free gift of God Belief the 2x2 fellowship is God's ONLY true way; therefore, all other church members, preachers, churches and religions are "false". Belief salvation comes by grace AND works (self-effort) Belief salvation is not possible without being in their fellowship Belief sanctification comes BEFORE justification Belief the bible commands/teaches believers to worship in homes Belief the bible commands/teaches preaches to be homeless and go out in pairs Belief women should only wear skirts/dresses Belief the bible condemns worshiping in buildings
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_
Junior Member
Posts: 71
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Post by _ on Jul 12, 2007 12:33:31 GMT -5
West coast USA...
Feel free to take the list and ask the workers in your area... be very direct and ask for a yes or no question...
For example, dont ask them if Jesus was of God or had a godly nature... as them point blank if Jesus IS/WAS GOD.
so on and so forth...
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Post by diet coke on Jul 12, 2007 13:44:19 GMT -5
There are lots of good practical reasons to leave the f&w's, and lots of good practical reasons to join. Personal preference is the major factor, I would hope. The one explanation for leaving/joining that I completely discount is doctrine; argue all you want about scriptural right and wrong, the fact is, if you remain in Christianity you still continue to believe some awfully strange and impossible things, you still trust in a Bible full of contradictions and where many passages have been proven historically untrue, you still prefer one reasonable interpretation of the scriptures over another completely reasonable interpretation, and you still feel the same Spirit and worship the same God.
I propose we stick to common-sense explanations such as "I want to watch football on a 50-inch television" or "I want to wear earrings to school" instead of trying to justify your real reason with scripture, because a person can justify any life-style he wants pretty convincingly using our scriptures.
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Jul 12, 2007 14:05:56 GMT -5
I disagree diet coke. Our study a couple months ago was on the bible and possible contradictions, and honestly, while some claim it has been proven untrue historically, there really isn't alot of support for that.
If you dont mind me asking, what do you believe has been proven untrue, and what contradictions have you come across?
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ann
Senior Member
Jesus did NOT say follow people .. He said follow ME!
Posts: 267
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Post by ann on Jul 12, 2007 14:22:11 GMT -5
Because, Excellent! In my own experience, everything you have stated sums this group up in well written words. To stay in this type of environment is scary.
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Post by diet coke on Jul 12, 2007 14:55:55 GMT -5
I disagree diet coke. Our study a couple months ago was on the bible and possible contradictions, and honestly, while some claim it has been proven untrue historically, there really isn't alot of support for that. If you dont mind me asking, what do you believe has been proven untrue, and what contradictions have you come across? "eyes", I struggle to decide whether or not conversations of this sort are a good thing or bad thing. Didn't know whether to reply or not...ignorance really is bliss in many conditions; but for others, it is hell. For some people, such studies will ruin their faith and leave them in deep depression; for others, it is a blessing to be able to establish a new faith based on the facts. Anyway, here is a site you could use to begin the study of contradictions in the bible: www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.htmlAs far as "historically inaccurate", I think most of us accept this on different levels. Who believes anymore that the earth is only 6000 years old? So we try to squeeze Adam and Eve somehow into our current beliefs. What educated person believes there was a worldwide flood, or that all the species of the world were saed in an ark? So, again, we kind of shove common sense aside and try not think about it too much. But many other inaccuracies are simply ignored by people because other authors point to the examples that ARE factual: * if there were really a couple million people tromping around in the desert for 40 years, we would be able to find some evidence of them. Yet we keep hearing little stories like an egyption chariot being found in the red sea, or the way egyptions really did use slave labor, to "prove" the book of exodus. I can picture a "mass exodus" of a few hundred people, though. * most of the conquest described in the book of Joshua simply didn't happen, as best we can tell. But small portions of it did, enough for the bible-defenders to accept the whole story. For example, Jericho was in ruins long before Israel showed up, so it seems likely that someone long afterward saw those ruins and made up a logical explanation. * the kingdoms of David and Solomon are greatly exaggerated in the Bible ...and so on. Many facts intermingle with story-telling and great exaggeration, so that we will be forever trying to separate the truth from the fiction.
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Post by To diet coke on Jul 12, 2007 15:23:28 GMT -5
u don't believe in the virgin birth or the ressurection either, so i'm wondering how much of the bible you believe. in another post you said the bible is full of lies, so don't be suprised if folks take your opinion with a grain of salt.
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Post by diet coke on Jul 12, 2007 15:32:12 GMT -5
in another post you said the bible is full of lies, so don't be suprised if folks take your opinion with a grain of salt. Did I really? "Lies" is a very strong word. I prefer "exaggerations," or "historical inaccuracies," or the likely truth: that worshippers attributed expected miracles, like a virgin birth to Jesus, because to say otherwise would be irreverant in an age when miracles were expected of the messiah. I'm not sure which post you're referring to, but I suspect I was using that word as an example because of posters calling f&w "liars" on this board.
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Post by diet coke on Jul 12, 2007 15:42:16 GMT -5
u don't believe in the virgin birth or the ressurection either Let me put it another, less harsh way, because there is little that I "believe" or "disbelieve", and much that I question and enjoy as a mystery. But one thing I do believe is that we would be reading in the Bible about both the virgin birth and the resurrection whether or not they really happened. The historic truth of these things is irrelevent; both were absolutely necessary to his credibility in that day.
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Post by decisions on Jul 12, 2007 19:22:32 GMT -5
Why stay? Why leave? What do you expect to get out of it? What are you expected to put into it? How do the scales ballance out?
Do you really need what you want to get out of it? Those who stay, do. Those who leave don't.
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Bonnie
Senior Member
Posts: 212
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Post by Bonnie on Jul 12, 2007 22:25:02 GMT -5
I'm not a historian, but people for centuries have been trying to discredit the trueness of the bible. If it had been done, we'd all be hearing about it.
Kathy
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Post by To diet coke on Jul 13, 2007 0:08:53 GMT -5
in another post you said the bible is full of lies, so don't be suprised if folks take your opinion with a grain of salt.
Did I really? "Lies" is a very strong word.
Yes you really did:
If we really want to talk about truth, we should all admit how little we know about what really happened 2000 years ago, and accept that the Bible story we worship is just as full of "lies" as modern day uprisings.
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Post by diet coke on Jul 13, 2007 0:19:34 GMT -5
I'm not a historian, but people for centuries have been trying to discredit the trueness of the bible. If it had been done, we'd all be hearing about it. Kathy I don't understand what you mean, Kathy. I have a wall full of books and magazines about bible times, very few of which try to defend the bible as a good history book. Another wall full of science books, not of single one of which agrees with Genesis. This stuff isn't well-hidden at all. It's all very fascinating stuff, but in general, the more scholarly the author, regardless of personal belief in God, the more he or she accepts that much of the bible is--um--fabricated. Moreover, when one studies how the bible was most likely written, one wonders how it even could be accurate. How could these writers possibly know what happened hundreds of years before their time? The could know only stories that had been passed from generation to generation to generation to generation to generation. We need to give them a little leeway.
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Post by diet coke on Jul 13, 2007 0:24:33 GMT -5
in another post you said the bible is full of lies, so don't be suprised if folks take your opinion with a grain of salt. Did I really? "Lies" is a very strong word.Yes you really did: If we really want to talk about truth, we should all admit how little we know about what really happened 2000 years ago, and accept that the Bible story we worship is just as full of "lies" as modern day uprisings. Yes, I remember this well. I was indeed responding to people who were telling f&w's that their "apostolic succession" theory was an outright lie. And I stand behind my quote 100%; if you are going to throw mud, first you better examine all the goofy things you believe in, and accept that they are even MORE likely to be "lies". Our religions are all built on things we accept by faith without evidence, many times even against the evidence. That's what religion is.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Jul 13, 2007 0:53:48 GMT -5
I'm sorry to say that I didn't have near as good of a reason to leave as most here had. I was young, I was rebelling, and I wanted to do what I wanted to do. No "really good" reasons here. M.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2007 3:33:25 GMT -5
Sometimes we don't really understand the 'how's' and 'why's' in the developments of life until years later, when time has managed to give perspective.
The Lord used the plagues in Egypt to inspire the children of Israels exit from an established culture into an unknown desert -- but that is not the real reason as to why they were to leave. God had plans for them that they didn't understand until years later.
I feel that way about our exit. -- The repulsive happenings that prompted our exit were minor, in comparison with the wonderful privelages and oppurtunities that God has opened up to us today. It pays to trust His leading, even when we don't have a complete understanding of where it may lead!!
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Post by rebellious on Jul 13, 2007 7:26:12 GMT -5
I'm sorry to say that I didn't have near as good of a reason to leave as most here had. I was young, I was rebelling, and I wanted to do what I wanted to do. No "really good" reasons here. M. What exactly were you rebelling against? Break it down for us. Many of us exes were rebelling against an authority which has no basis, in other words, an illegitamate authority. We have come to repudiate that so called authority over our lives. I'm just curious, do you in any way equate rebelling against the worker's authority with rebelling against God? 2x2ism is so full of equivocations, one piled on top of the other, and we who were raised in it often have some difficulty seperating the issues. We all "wanted to do what we wanted to do" whatever that might have been. Some of these things were harmless amusement, while others were down right self-distructive. A certian amount of this is just normal growing up exploration. As adults, we realize that there is a certian amount of legitamate authority that we are beholden to; the Law of the land, the rules of our employers, etc.... But before we submit to an additional authority (such as the workers), we must decide if we believe that authority is legitamate. I follow the Law, because the State can punish me if I don't. In turn, the Law provides a somewhat orderly society, while curtailing my freedom minimally. I obey my employers rules, because my employer can fire me if I don't. In turn, my employer provides me with a liveable wage. So, I ask myself, what happens if I don't submit to the worker's authority? And, what do I get in return if I decide to all the workers to have authority over me? Am I really rebellious if I deny an illegitamate authority?
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Post by b2 on Jul 14, 2007 12:55:28 GMT -5
btt
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Jul 14, 2007 15:36:40 GMT -5
Diet Coke, I'm already fairly aware of the claimed contradictions, but thanks for the links.
My faith is based on a personal relationship, so above the bible.. is God. It is a shame that I cannot read Hebrew and Greek, because I feel we miss so much in translation.
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Post by Zorro on Jul 14, 2007 21:13:56 GMT -5
The one explanation for leaving/joining that I completely discount is doctrine
That's unfortunate....and slightly arrogant, don't you think? Personally, doctrinal issues are the total reason I left (and nearly everyone else that I personally know) and that you feel you can wholly discount the issues in the very depth of my heart...I apolgize for the harshness, but "arrogant" is the only word I can come up with. I'm fairly certain that you don't mean it that way, and I'm basically asking if you've ever considered that attitude (and resultant reaction) when you make a comment like that?
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Post by diet coke on Jul 14, 2007 21:37:57 GMT -5
The one explanation for leaving/joining that I completely discount is doctrineThat's unfortunate....and slightly arrogant, don't you think? Personally, doctrinal issues are the total reason I left (and nearly everyone else that I personally know) and that you feel you can wholly discount the issues in the very depth of my heart...I apolgize for the harshness, but "arrogant" is the only word I can come up with. I'm fairly certain that you don't mean it that way, and I'm basically asking if you've ever considered that attitude (and resultant reaction) when you make a comment like that? I reread my post, and you're right; it was uncalled for. I apologize. I don't understand, but then I don't relate to most people.
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