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Post by cp on Feb 20, 2007 16:10:43 GMT -5
I am just curious as to why you chose (or were asked) to not go to meetings. Was it because of people in the meetings? Was it because of your relationship with God? If you could just leave a short answer. I am curious.
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Feb 20, 2007 16:35:35 GMT -5
I don't really have a short answer. Or, maybe I have a bunch of short answers that lead to one huge answer. *Shrug*
One thing I'd like to say upfront is that I genuinely love "the friends". When I lived in the mid-west, we had wonderful elders, a wonderful meeting, and great fellowship. However, when my relationship fell on hard times, several of my "friends" turned their back on me, and instead of supporting me, they chose to gossip about me and stop inviting me to things. It hurt, especially since a couple of these people were supposedly close friends.
My family and I decided the best thing to do would to move completely out of the area, because we just felt uncomfortable around many of these people (not necessarily those in our specific meeting, let me make that clear, but those in the area who were our professing "friends").
My husband's professing family hasn't been that nice either. They've called me a lady (because I got pregnant during our engagement period, before our marriage), cancelled out wedding plans without talking to us, passed rumors about us, talks about us behind our backs, and much much more.
When we moved back, several things happened that caused my husband and I to realize that these people did not really care about us at all. The elder worker called me worldly and ungodly, my husband's aunt told me we were going to hell, the workers told us we should have run our "business decisions" and our choice to move by them, ... the list goes on.
The kicker was when we found out about all the corrupt things going on in the elder's home, but because they provide the workers with cars, money, and individual rooms, the workers overlook everything.
When I refused to agree with the workers on my appearance (toe nail polish = ungodly), the workers removed union meeting from our home.
There are just a bunch of bits and pieces growing up until now that made me realize this is not okay with us, and it's not something we want to be involved in.
I don't believe that you have to belong to this group to go to heaven. Salvation is of the Lord- and that's that. I was always told that "the world" twists verses how they want to, but now I see that people in meetings do the same things.
Since going to a different church, I find the message more fulfilling, and I learn so much more from the sermons. The workers are unable to tell us how to raise our children, how to have healthy marriages, how to deal with our finances (especially when you're married and have children) and how to run your home because THEY DONT HAVE ANY OF THOSE THINGS.
I don't think anyone has the right to judge my salvation in the Lord, but THE LORD. And, the way to help someone who you may see as weak is not to tell them they are horrible, lady, good-for-nothing, ungodly, worldly, going to hell...
Bad approaches. Where's the love?
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Post by Q 4 U on Feb 20, 2007 16:47:31 GMT -5
I am just curious as to why you chose (or were asked) to not go to meetings. I chose to leave. My health improved after that. Was it because of people in the meetings? No. Was it because of your relationship with God? No. If you could just leave a short answer. I am curious. Me too. Will you be joining the rest of us "heathen"?
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Post by Thank You on Feb 20, 2007 16:56:35 GMT -5
Thank you for sharing your experiences. I am sorry that you were treated that way by the fellowship as I am still in the group, but am always looking for an excuse to leave. If and when I leave, I will also probably be sometype of a Baptist as I usually enjoy their services when I attend with my Baptist friends. I just have not had all the bad experiences that others have had that post on this board. I have never followed any of the rules that they say that they do not have, but this issue has never been questioned and I do not know why? Being a male, I choose not to wear toe nail polish, so this has not been an issue. I enjoyed your post.
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Post by guest12345 on Feb 20, 2007 17:23:13 GMT -5
I can totally sympathize with "with open eyes" since our family has experienced some of the same. Knowing some of her family members personally and how long they have been in this way, it is sad to see how self righteous folks can be. It is always those that you would least expect that seem to surprise you the most. Funny, this she said wasn that when they found out about the corrupt things that were going on in the elders homes, nothing was done about it because they were being furnished with money, cars, etc. My husband has told me this for years and it has just been so hard to get it through my head that the workers could possibly think like this - but after watching closely it appears to be true. Sad, very sad. I, like with open eyes, love many of the friends and always will but I don't think that has a thing to do with my salvation.
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Feb 20, 2007 17:28:22 GMT -5
My husband really didn't have a lot of issues either- but when he saw the way I was treated, especially by his family, he was really turned off. It was the way the workers treated me that really made it click with him.
I never really subscribed to the rules, but I did believe that salvation could only be obtained within the fellowship- until I started hanging around some close Christian friends of mine who just... I mean, the spirit.. the glow.. I could FEEL it just being around them, and it was definitely God. By 2x2 standards, they weren't saved, but here they were, more passionate about Christ and spreading the gospel than any 2x2 I knew.
Also, my aunt left meetings when she was young, and my mom always told me, "She knows what is right, but she just doesn't want to do it." I believed that for a long time, until I saw the fruit of her spirit, and the fruit of your children's spirits. Amazing, amazing family.
1/3 of the reason we left meetings were the way the "friends" treated us. 1/3 of the reason was the examples of supposed "outsides" who were overflowing with passion for Christ. The final third was that the "way" didn't match with the bible, as I continued to read, and God continued to reveal things to me.
It was a quite a process, but I'm thankful to be out. I couldn't imagine going back. I love the group we're involved with.
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Post by Scott Ross on Feb 20, 2007 17:40:26 GMT -5
I left because at the time I felt it was the only true religion...I was 'professing on Sunday, but not the rest of the week. I knew I was being a hypocrite and it was best to get out. I spent 22 years 'knowing' I was going to hell because I didn't 'profess' so lived accordingly. It wasn't until I was almost forty that I finally 'stopped believing what I didn't believe', and my life changed around for the better. Scott
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Post by justamom on Feb 20, 2007 19:58:37 GMT -5
I left because I no longer wanted to go to meetings. No one forced me out.. I didn't know about any of the stuff that I have read on the internet when I left....
I have never been one who has enjoyed going to 'church' so if I don't enjoy it.. why be there and make myself miserable and everyone else around me?
Have a great Tuesday!
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terry
Senior Member
Posts: 328
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Post by terry on Feb 20, 2007 20:17:32 GMT -5
My first wife left a week after my son's second b-day. She'd never been faithful--I was told I'd spend the rest of my life alone. Duane Hopkins told me that rather than "bother" the workers about my situation I should pray for my ex's death. Prior to that I'd been concerned about the exclusivity of the F&W. The support (lack thereof--except for those who where "weak saints" and they were fantastic) from the F&W's during my single parent days showed me what the F&W where really like. They found fault with those who supported me--suggested immoral realtionships with the couples who helped--while no else--including the elder and his son of our Sunday morning mtg ever invited me to their home.
When I sent Muarry Keane a letter that I was going to remarry--he couldn't even refer to her by name--instead he refered to her as "that person". At the time I had responsibility for the Wed. mtg--but they were all secondary saints--they supported me which just solidified their status as secondary.
It took me about 5 or 6 years to break out completely--I'm now RC--enjoy services--people rejoicing in their salvation--yes there are struggles--have been involved in youth ministry and parrish council--but we rejoice because we have salvation--we don't constantly beat ourselves up.
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Post by a believer on Feb 20, 2007 20:27:08 GMT -5
I left because I got to know a woman who I could see had what I didn't have. She talked about Jesus unlike I had ever heard. I visited the Church she went to and heard salvation preached for the first time although I had been in meeting for 30 years.
I left because a 2x2 aunt said, said what about your children and I thought, yes what about my children and woke up!! this was at the time I started going to the other church.
Finally I heard about William Irvine and realized this way was not started by Jesus as preached but was started by a man the same as every other church.
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Post by cp on Feb 20, 2007 21:52:02 GMT -5
Me too. Will you be joining the rest of us "heathen"? To Q 4 U I am not going to mtngs at the present time. I was only asking a question to others to see what made them see other ways were better?
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Post by Q 4 U on Feb 20, 2007 21:55:00 GMT -5
Me too. Will you be joining the rest of us "heathen"? To Q 4 U I am not going to mtngs at the present time. I was only asking a question to others to see what made them see other ways were better? Perhaps it wasn't a matter of seeing that "other ways were better." Perhaps it was a matter of seeing that 2x2ism is flawed and deceptive.
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Post by cp on Feb 20, 2007 22:19:41 GMT -5
Or perhaps it is because of my relationship with God.
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Post by yweleft on Feb 20, 2007 23:50:23 GMT -5
short answer? ? we'll try We left meetings because we were led by God. Because the following is taught by the workers in this area. -works based salvation rather than grace based- -worker way the only way to heaven rather than Jesus is the way -Jesus plus necessary for salvation- -corruption, scandal and deceit instead of purity, scriptural behavior and honesty- This was not taught - God is God the Father, -Jesus is God the Son- -God the Holy Spirit-
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Feb 20, 2007 23:53:50 GMT -5
cp, very good point.
For me, combining all of the points I did above (the "thirds" point, I mean), it all led to my relationship with God. In my anger with some of the friends and workers, I went to the bible for comfort. My husband and I would sit in bed devouring the bible word by word. How was it we had read these things over and over our whole lives and missed so much. We were constantly nudging each other and saying, "Listen to this! Did you ever read this part? Did you ever get this?" as we quoted verses from the bible.
We sought answers in the bible and in our prayers. Sometimes, we'd wake up and instantly roll over to share the things that had come to us in our sleep. The most amazing thing was that we were both receiving the exact same revelation- word for word. I'd start saying something, and my husband would finish it. We had never been so spiritually united before.
As our relationship with Christ strengthened, we became more and more eager and passionate about sharing what had been revealed to those in meetings. We'd go to meetings willed with excitement, passion, joy... and leave feeling like the life had been sucked out of us. As I mentioned in another thread- sometimes the elder, or one of my husbands relatives, or one of the workers, would debate what we said in our testimony in their "testimony". It was tough to take. We'd sit through gospel meetings and listen to things that just didn't align with the bible. It was really, really hard.. sad...and for a period of time, we chose to stay in meetings to be an encouragement to those struggling for truth and answers. Then we both realized that we were being led elsewhere, and it was time to leave.
It was a hard decision, because I deeply loved and cared for (beyond just their souls) several people in our meeting.. and I hated to leave because when we moved back to town, they had expressed how thankful they were to have us back.. because we were "sorely needed". Funny how they saw us as strong, and the workers and elders saw us as weak.
Somewhere along the line, God gave me a vision of a group of people drowning. It came to me that, there was no way that my husband and I could jump in the water and save a group of drowning people. We'd surely drown with them. However, there were plenty of life preservers for us to throw in, and if they really wanted to survive, they would grab on.
I always felt in meetings that I was drowning.... and leaving meetings was like straightening out my legs and realizing I could actually reach the bottom, that the water wasn't really way over my head.
The best thing that my husband and I can do for those in meeting right now is to live our lives unto Jesus. "You shall know them by their fruits." We can pray for them, and... when they are ready, they can reach out beyond their superficial relationship with Christ, and have a REAL, HONEST, LOVING, DEEP relationship with Him.
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Post by Stefan on Feb 21, 2007 2:21:47 GMT -5
I left because I was struggling to live up to what is expected of a faithful 2x2. I felt like a hypocrit because I of some of the things in my life that should not be there. If I ever get my priorities right, I will go back because I love the friends and workers. They have been very supportive and have never turned their backs on me, despite my obvious struggles.
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Post by studylearning on Feb 21, 2007 4:24:25 GMT -5
I left because the workers presented a situation where in order to stay in the fellowship I would possibly be committing Blasphemy.
I was told not to believe that the Holy Spirit works in people out side of the F&W's fellowship. They said, "Surely you cannot believe that one could find salvation in THOSE other Churches?" My answer, "Yes, why do you not believe that this could happen?" No answer.
This whole accounting is on this TMB so you can check it out.
The short of it.
I am unwilling and have a wrong spirit because I refuse to deny the works of the Holy Spirit as observed by me in others.
My testimony on this observation is not welcome in meetings.
My Choices
A: Go alone with the workers and deny what I have observed thus by default denying the works of the very Holy Spirit which works in my life thus negating the Holy Spirit which brings me salvation. Blasphemy
B: Refuse to deny what I observed thus making myself unacceptable to the Workers and Friends.
B was my choice as there really was no other option. The workers see their Church as the only place the Holy Spirit works and thus deny the Holy Spirit (with possible blasphemy) every time they speak against another Christian outside their group as false.
THIS I feel is by far the most serious error of the "TRUTH fellowship". It is the perpetuation of exclusiveness. On one hand many say this is regional or not everywhere. But, yet the group as a whole will not speak up for even the one error. I from experience find that most in the group still believe this exclusive issue of being the one and only true Church.
The workers say they put these things in Gods hand but yet we have account after account of workers telling people not to believe in other Churches. Is this not hypocrisy? Saying we put it in Gods hands then judging by their own standards and not Gods. This is not putting it in Gods Hands. "We dare not speak against any other brother who claims a walk with Jesus"
Is it not better to error on the side of caution with loving acceptance rather then to error unto death and unforgiveness.
We are to follow Jesus lead. Jesus taught us to love others including our enemies. Without that love, all other works are for naught.
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Post by ANDREW M on Feb 21, 2007 8:02:47 GMT -5
Studylearning, I have to say a hearty "Amen" to your post because I have had exactly the same experiences.
I was told that I should continue to attend gospel meetings as there were things that I needed ironed out.
1) My belief that there were those in other ways who were saved and that I did not feel it was my place to judge them. I left that to God.
2) I believed solely in Jesus, not Jesus plus meetings.
In addition, whilst having spent a long time away from meetings I had had a close relationship with God and had experienced his power in my life, including the answering of some very important prayers. Although this was not openly rejected by the workers, their reaction (or non-reaction !) was tantamount to disbelief.
I now struggle with the feeling that Workers may be carrying out the Devil's work as much as God's will.
Certainly I have long identified that the primary pillars of the way are the Church in the home and the ministry without a home, instead of Loving God and your neighbour as yourself (as explained by Jesus).
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Post by las logged out on Feb 21, 2007 8:50:28 GMT -5
I am just curious as to why you chose (or were asked) to not go to meetings. Was it because of people in the meetings? Was it because of your relationship with God? If you could just leave a short answer. I am curious. The reasons I left was over what I saw on Internet I found out the truth about the truth
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Post by My reasons on Feb 21, 2007 14:57:31 GMT -5
I left voluntarily because of the lack of love and wisdom and just the out-and-out silliness of the "non-rules" that I was increasingly becoming aware of. I tried to bargain with God, saying "I'll be a force for good within this system that's not so good" - because I was a coward and didn't want the inevitable shifts in relationships that would happen as a consequence of me leaving. I felt He said "I'm not going there with you." So I left. It was the hardest (and most rewarding) decision I have ever made. No regrets. "Je ne regrette rien"
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Post by whimpie on Feb 21, 2007 17:06:39 GMT -5
I left due to unhealthy spiritual food being served by the workers in God's name. The workers have received a bit to much admiration and it shows spiritually. Their lies and pretense has been believed and now..... Well, admiration is like ice cream to the ego, it makes it fat & worthless to behold. Meanwhile...................The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dogs back ! The devil claims his victory of the 2x2's. Totally controlled by fear, vanity, pride, and selfishness, they are going to need Jesus alone as they face trail by fire, and discover the truth about themselves. They have converted the spiritual aspects of God's Truth to tangible easier to believe lies. Swallowed camels and choked on gnats. Become so self-absorbed as to be worthless to Christianity. Obsessing on themselves alone.
"mirror, mirror on the wall" "Who's the most wonderful of them all?" "workers, workers, go workers!" the friends chant eagerly.
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Post by Scott Ross on Jul 10, 2007 19:44:48 GMT -5
I've noticed several newer posters here and thought I would bump up a couple of old threads for them to read. Thought it related to some of what they were posting Scott
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sms
Junior Member
Posts: 68
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Post by sms on Jul 10, 2007 21:32:58 GMT -5
My "leaving" was long and I just went to fewer and fewer meetings, felt more and more marginalized. I have never had the "zeal" of many of those I grew up with. I was B&R 2x2, and yet I did not "profess" until I was 17.
I believed with all my heart it was the right way for me for a very long time. But when I went to college - I loved all my friends. Some were NOT people most 2 x 2s would have been with or loved. I cared deeply for them all and found them all to have something to offer.
The problems multiplied for me. It started when my fiancee - a boy who had "professed" shortly after he met me was actively recruited to become a worker. To the point that when I shook hands at his Sunday Morning Meeting and introduced myself to folks, they would smile, shake my hand and then tell my fiancee they couldn't wait to hear him on the platform. And he spent a weekend with the workers in the area - living with them and so forth. Needless to say - our relationship did not survive this pressure.
Then, somehow, I got stuck in some of that "mess in Montana" that is on the TLT board. I believed the 2 x 2s to be the right way. I did not believe that everyone who didn't profess went to hell - but I did believe it was the path to follow. So you can imagine my distress when I stayed with a close friend on the eve of her wedding - and her parents did NOT come to meeting with us because they'd been asked not to come. I cried all the way back home from the wedding (a 4 hour drive) - how could you tell someone that they couldn't come AT ALL - how would they get help? How can they continue? It was horrible and I felt very betrayed.
Less than a year later - I married my husband - an atheist. We had someone in the 2x2 faith call all my 2x2 friends to tell them they should NOT come - it was wrong to support me. I am, to this day, grateful for those who DID come and show their love and support for me.
I continued on for years. I loved the friends and workers, despite my experiences I've related and others I have not related. I think the "breaking point" if you will is when I was having a discussion with some folks who had just "professed" along with some others who were strongly "professing" and they were talking about the sheep in the fold and the 'newbie' wife told us she just realized that it was only those in the 2 x 2 who were in the fold - not all Christians. The other lady told the 'newbie' not to tell her hubby - that it was a "revelation" given by God. I don't know why it bothered me soooo much - but to this day it pains my heart a great deal. I think that at that point I came to care less and less about attending the meetings and being a part of the 2 x 2 faith.
It was only two years ago where I went to meeting with my mum, and for the first time since I had professed - I did not give my testimony. It was extrememly hard - but it was so hypocritical for me to speak - I was no longer attending meetings, and I no longer felt I belonged. I also attended the churches of some of my in-laws then.
I still have not chosen another church - I'm having a very hard time letting go of the beliefs I was raised in. I'm glad Scott saw fit to bump these posts! Thanks, Scott!
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Post by Scott Ross on Jul 10, 2007 22:16:25 GMT -5
Hi SMS You're very welcome. All of us who have left have felt those same feelings. And most of us have been just the same as you concerning- I'm having a very hard time letting go of the beliefs I was raised in.Montana huh..... I used to live in the Missoula area, and I also lived in Bozeman. You probably know my brother Rocky and his family...... I have a son in Bozeman and one in Missoula.... Scott
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Post by wondering on Jul 10, 2007 23:33:02 GMT -5
sms,
What was that mess in Montana?
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tms
New Member
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Post by tms on Jul 11, 2007 0:42:50 GMT -5
I LEFT BECAUSE I was never good enough, I did not beleive that only the friends and workers were the right way-I did not beleive that salvation could only be found in belonging to meetings. So I felt like being a part of a group of people that preached that was hyprocritical. I did not beleive that so I felt wierd standing up and giving testimonies and stuff.
I also left because I just thought it was wierd all the rules about hair, clothings and etc..that had nothing to do with God.
I read the Bible by myself and it did not match alot of the things in meeting.
I never felt I would be "good enough"
I learned about salvation by GRACE and not works so that is also why I left.
I did not leave because of the people. No one really offended me or did anything wrong, I just left because things did not make sense to me, and I did not like putting God in a box. I wanted to be happy, being in the truth I was always so DEPRESSED, and everyone around me was always depressed. If its the only true way then why is everyone so depressed?
So I left, and I feel lighter...for the most part. I feel safer on the outside then I did on the inside.
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Post by at some point on Jul 11, 2007 1:01:35 GMT -5
I am just curious as to why you chose (or were asked) to not go to meetings. Was it because of people in the meetings? Was it because of your relationship with God? If you could just leave a short answer. I am curious. I chose to depart 2x2ism due to the way the group did not openly acknowledge its history and, in some cases, blatantly lied about it.
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Post by as I c it on Jul 11, 2007 1:29:15 GMT -5
at some point,
That's a sad one, alright. And at some point, I think everyone's going to have to deal with it....unless their conscience and spirit is so dead, and they're just there for the social side of it... Those "lucky"? souls will escape....for now, anyways. But as for the rest, if you care about your soul...it's a tough road to have to travel.
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