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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 10, 2012 0:22:30 GMT -5
None of that is exclusive to trinitarians. The feelings may not be, but they do not believe in the same God. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2012 6:54:08 GMT -5
None of that is exclusive to trinitarians. The feelings may not be, but they do not believe in the same God. Are you saying there are multiple Gods out there who are different from each other? Or just that there are different perceptions of the same singular God? Or?  ? Just curious about your statement. |
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sgw
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Post by sgw on Jun 10, 2012 7:04:55 GMT -5
It seems suspiciously convenient that there's a verbatim transcript of this workers sermon in NZ on CSA.
And then that its gets posted here.
How did that come about?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2012 7:13:40 GMT -5
It seems suspiciously convenient that there's a verbatim transcript of this workers sermon in NZ on CSA. And then that its gets posted here. How did that come about? Your questions seem to indicate a problem of some sort. What is so "suspiciously convenient" about it? This is a forum that is open to friends, workers, ex-friends, ex-workers and any other observer. Many participants attend meetings and have notes of meetings. There is nothing "suspicious" about it, it's a natural development which has occurred before and will occur again. Or perhaps I don't understand your concern. Do you think maybe that Graham Thompson prepared his sermon and and sent it to the TMB for posting here? Even if that was the case, what's the problem that we need to solve here? |
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Post by sharonw on Jun 10, 2012 9:24:12 GMT -5
I think that all depends on what or who is most important to tha person as in a spiritual life. When trinitarians believe that concept, Jesus in all His glories is the most important person to them in their spirituality....the love of God is very strong for those believers because they've begun to understand just ALL that it did cost Jesus to leave His glory on high and come down and made into something lower then the angels. WOW! Is often most of our feelings! It is almost impossible to describe what Jesus does mean to us. And I'm not trying to knock other thoughts in regards to their spirituality..... Sure...... but none of that explains why someone who believes in the trinity would cease to have fellowship with a group of other people who believe in the trinity. Okay, I'll try again...is it true fellowship when someone has to curb their tongue when testifying about Jesus Christ? And that testament may well give evidence to the trinity concept but others in that mtg. do not believe such and are offended from that testamony! In reality, due to the fact that trinitarian believers have to "tamper down" or even stop their belief in Jesus Christ as the Divine Lord and Saviour are being held captive by those who find the believing of a Divine Saviour who is said to be God in John 1 and other places. Is this true fellowship? No, it is not. When we find ourselves having to carefully speak before others due to trinitarian beliefs, then we are in bondage and that negates fellowship, does it not? |
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Post by sharonw on Jun 10, 2012 9:26:52 GMT -5
I think that all depends on what or who is most important to tha person as in a spiritual life. When trinitarians believe that concept, Jesus in all His glories is the most important person to them in their spirituality....the love of God is very strong for those believers because they've begun to understand just ALL that it did cost Jesus to leave His glory on high and come down and made into something lower then the angels. WOW! Is often most of our feelings! It is almost impossible to describe what Jesus does mean to us. None of that is exclusive to trinitarians. Oh but it is....simply because trinitarians see Jesus Christ as God! And others do not....when there's a difference in our picture of who God is, then there will be a difference for those that believe that Jesus Christ is God vs. those who believe that God is singularly so. |
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Post by sharonw on Jun 10, 2012 9:29:04 GMT -5
It seems suspiciously convenient that there's a verbatim transcript of this workers sermon in NZ on CSA. And then that its gets posted here. How did that come about? Your questions seem to indicate a problem of some sort. What is so "suspiciously convenient" about it? This is a forum that is open to friends, workers, ex-friends, ex-workers and any other observer. Many participants attend meetings and have notes of meetings. There is nothing "suspicious" about it, it's a natural development which has occurred before and will occur again. Or perhaps I don't understand your concern. Do you think maybe that Graham Thompson prepared his sermon and and sent it to the TMB for posting here? Even if that was the case, what's the problem that we need to solve here? Seems he's speaking to the "verbatim sermon in workers' sermons in NZ.....perhaps the question is who wrote the sermon and handed it out to workers? Where did the sermon really originate and not who first spoke it. |
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 10, 2012 9:31:40 GMT -5
The feelings may not be, but they do not believe in the same God. Are you saying there are multiple Gods out there who are different from each other? Or just that there are different perceptions of the same singular God? Or? ? Just curious about your statement. clearday, There are many false gods that people believe in or serve -- and one true God. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2012 9:34:37 GMT -5
Are you saying there are multiple Gods out there who are different from each other? Or just that there are different perceptions of the same singular God? Or? ? Just curious about your statement. clearday, There are many false gods that people believe in or serve -- and one true God. Thanks but I'm still not having a clear day here. Are you saying that there are other gods but they are false ones (ie liars)? Or are you saying that "false gods" are simply imaginary non-existent gods while the "true god" is real? Not trying to be combative here, I'm interested in your thoughts because your thoughts will probably represent that of a lot of people on this subject. |
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Post by snow on Jun 10, 2012 9:54:47 GMT -5
Clearday, know you're not asking me, but my thought is there is one God, many beliefs about him, and he's big enough to encompass them all. Nothing he/she/it can't do imo. Connects with individuals of all beliefs.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2012 10:40:12 GMT -5
Clearday, know you're not asking me, but my thought is there is one God, many beliefs about him, and he's big enough to encompass them all. Nothing he/she/it can't do imo. Connects with individuals of all beliefs. Thanks, I'm inclined to agree with that. So you would fall under the category that 1. "there are no other gods, just imaginary ones" and 2. that a "false god" is simply "the one God perceived incorrectly"? |
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Post by snow on Jun 10, 2012 11:58:43 GMT -5
Clearday, know you're not asking me, but my thought is there is one God, many beliefs about him, and he's big enough to encompass them all. Nothing he/she/it can't do imo. Connects with individuals of all beliefs. Thanks, I'm inclined to agree with that. So you would fall under the category that 1. "there are no other gods, just imaginary ones" and 2. that a "false god" is simply "the one God perceived incorrectly"? I don't think I'd even go so far as to say they are imaginary or incorrect. They are quite real to the people who believe in them. I just think that no matter who we think is God is okay because in a sense all that matters is that we care enough to connect with the divine in whatever form that is for us. However, I do see how each of us could thing that other's beliefs are imaginary or incorrect. I just think we're mistaken, is all. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2012 14:21:29 GMT -5
Thanks, I'm inclined to agree with that. So you would fall under the category that 1. "there are no other gods, just imaginary ones" and 2. that a "false god" is simply "the one God perceived incorrectly"? I don't think I'd even go so far as to say they are imaginary or incorrect. They are quite real to the people who believe in them. I just think that no matter who we think is God is okay because in a sense all that matters is that we care enough to connect with the divine in whatever form that is for us. However, I do see how each of us could thing that other's beliefs are imaginary or incorrect. I just think we're mistaken, is all. Sounds good to me! Thanks for sharing. |
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 10, 2012 15:48:25 GMT -5
Okay, I'll try again...is it true fellowship when someone has to curb their tongue when testifying about Jesus Christ? And that testament may well give evidence to the trinity concept but others in that mtg. do not believe such and are offended from that testamony! My experience is limited (just like everyone else's), but I've never seen or heard anything from anyone to indicate that a testimony about the trinity offended him. That's a hypothetical situation. Maybe it happens in some places. Even in such a hypothetical situation, a person would not "held captive" -- God offers the strength to proclaim the truth in liberty, if we only accept it. You're talking about a local church in a home where almost every member of that church does not believe in the trinity. I can't say that such a church doesn't exist, but I haven't seen one. The trinity is definitely not "adverse to the 2x2" view of Jesus. |
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Post by JO on Jun 10, 2012 16:05:14 GMT -5
None of that is exclusive to trinitarians. Oh but it is....simply because trinitarians see Jesus Christ as God! And others do not....when there's a difference in our picture of who God is, then there will be a difference for those that believe that Jesus Christ is God vs. those who believe that God is singularly so. Trinitarianism is a theological theory that has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. |
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Post by Happy Feet on Jun 10, 2012 16:43:29 GMT -5
Agree with JO!!
Whats the trinity to do with this thread.
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Post by inpeaceabiding on Jun 10, 2012 17:15:40 GMT -5
One thing that might confuse people is that "2x2s" don't use the word trinity, and might not know what people intend by that. I've never not believed that doctrine (since before I even seriously thought about what to believe about God...it's what I learned as a child in the 2x2 church), but I associated the word with Catholicism and for a long time didn't think it described anything I believed.
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Post by mod5 on Jun 11, 2012 0:54:09 GMT -5
Just a reminder.....this discussion is getting off the topic of the sermon from GT on CSA.
If anyone wants to continue with a discussion on "Multiple gods and the trinity" can you please start a new thread?
Thanks
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Post by kiwi on Jun 11, 2012 1:13:49 GMT -5
Clearday, know you're not asking me, but my thought is there is one God, many beliefs about him, and he's big enough to encompass them all. Nothing he/she/it can't do imo. Connects with individuals of all beliefs. Don't see any of that in the bible. |
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Post by kiwi on Jun 11, 2012 1:14:55 GMT -5
Your questions seem to indicate a problem of some sort. What is so "suspiciously convenient" about it? This is a forum that is open to friends, workers, ex-friends, ex-workers and any other observer. Many participants attend meetings and have notes of meetings. There is nothing "suspicious" about it, it's a natural development which has occurred before and will occur again. Or perhaps I don't understand your concern. Do you think maybe that Graham Thompson prepared his sermon and and sent it to the TMB for posting here? Even if that was the case, what's the problem that we need to solve here? Seems he's speaking to the "verbatim sermon in workers' sermons in NZ.....perhaps the question is who wrote the sermon and handed it out to workers? Where did the sermon really originate and not who first spoke it. What do you mean [wrote]? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2012 5:37:35 GMT -5
This topic seems to have become increasingly hot over the past week amongst the fellowship, as more of the friends have got to know about it. I have had a chance to have had a number of chats with friends and workers as they conclude their special meeting rounds and would make the following observations.
1) the young friends (say up to age 30) are strongly supportive of the message given by Graham. Because they see Graham as a senior worker, they tend to instinctively accept he is speaking on behalf of the ministry. They are therefore very happy that the subject has been spoken about and the fellowship’s stance made clear.
2) Those in the middle years (say age 30 to 60) are also strongly supportive of the message. They have been upset at some injustices that have occurred over the years. But they are also aware that they have heard nothing from the overseer and for completeness would like confirmation that Graham’s view represents that of the ministry
3) Those in older years (say age 60 onwards) have a wider variation of thought. Some have views in line with those above, but there are others who have absolutely no desire to hear anything about it. Some find the subject totally beyond them.
4) A number of the workers ( I am speaking mainly of junior ones here) have indicated they are strongly behind the message given by Graham. They see it as very beneficial that all know where the fellowship stands regarding csa. They strongly desire that any tensions between Graham and the church leadership will not hinder full support being given to the message.
While the sample I have spoken to is fairly small I’d be interested to hear if others are noting similar reactions.
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Post by fred on Jun 11, 2012 6:34:46 GMT -5
There seems to be some vibes I am picking up concerning GT and his message.
Firstly there have been several suggestions that GT might be considered a bit of a loose cannon - certainly not of the inner circle or with a desire to be there. Is this an indication that his message was entirely his?
Secondly, the silence from others shows that there is no open support for him which is a real shame. Even noels has not dropped us a note of support for Graham which seems quite strange considering all that had been said on this board.
I just hope I am not about to be disappointed again.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2012 7:07:53 GMT -5
This topic seems to have become increasingly hot over the past week amongst the fellowship, as more of the friends have got to know about it. I have had a chance to have had a number of chats with friends and workers as they conclude their special meeting rounds and would make the following observations. 1) the young friends (say up to age 30) are strongly supportive of the message given by Graham. Because they see Graham as a senior worker, they tend to instinctively accept he is speaking on behalf of the ministry. They are therefore very happy that the subject has been spoken about and the fellowship’s stance made clear. 2) Those in the middle years (say age 30 to 60) are also strongly supportive of the message. They have been upset at some injustices that have occurred over the years. But they are also aware that they have heard nothing from the overseer and for completeness would like confirmation that Graham’s view represents that of the ministry 3) Those in older years (say age 60 onwards) have a wider variation of thought. Some have views in line with those above, but there are others who have absolutely no desire to hear anything about it. Some find the subject totally beyond them. 4) A number of the workers ( I am speaking mainly of junior ones here) have indicated they are strongly behind the message given by Graham. They see it as very beneficial that all know where the fellowship stands regarding csa. They strongly desire that any tensions between Graham and the church leadership will not hinder full support being given to the message. While the sample I have spoken to is fairly small I’d be interested to hear if others are noting similar reactions. Your analysis has a ring of soundness to it spencer. Thanks for that. I suspect that most NZ'ers aren't aware of GT's peripheral status from the inner circle of workers advising the overseer. In this case, that's probably a good thing.....as you point out the younger people are taking his message as though it is an authoritative representation of all the ministry in NZ. As fred points out though, it is worrisome that there is no open support from upper levels of the NZ ministry. Even if they support his stance privately, that weakens the sermon for those who are aware of GT's absence from the inner circle of senior NZ workers. One of my concerns is that GT's good sermon which has captured a lot of readers all over the world, would lead to professional jealousy among some of the NZ workers, and GT find himself even further isolated. It would appear that the world needs more workers like this who will step up for what is good and right but if GT encounters opposition, it bodes poorly for that starting to occur. |
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shushy
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Post by shushy on Jun 11, 2012 7:20:52 GMT -5
I feel the same CD.
How old is GT, is he a senior worker?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2012 7:32:06 GMT -5
I feel the same CD. How old is GT, is he a senior worker? 50's probably, judging from appearance when I met him. Was a senior worker companion, then wasn't a senior worker, and recently a senior worker again. |
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Post by quizzer on Jun 11, 2012 9:30:16 GMT -5
What are the chances that GT would be put out of the work if he gathers more attention with ground-breaking testimonies that do not necessarily reflect the thoughts of the overseer(s)?
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Post by snow on Jun 11, 2012 10:04:45 GMT -5
Clearday, know you're not asking me, but my thought is there is one God, many beliefs about him, and he's big enough to encompass them all. Nothing he/she/it can't do imo. Connects with individuals of all beliefs. Don't see any of that in the bible. Bible's not all there is in this world. It's a relatively new scripture in fact. |
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Post by emerald on Jun 11, 2012 10:28:48 GMT -5
What are the chances that GT would be put out of the work if he gathers more attention with ground-breaking testimonies that do not necessarily reflect the thoughts of the overseer(s)? Not going to happen. Kiwi assured us that GT's sermon was inspired by God and that GT is completely in step with all the other NZ workers on this. If GT hadn't delivered the sermon, another worker would have. Male or female. |
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