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Post by quizzer on Jun 7, 2012 9:34:22 GMT -5
Umm, well, "asked" or "suggested".....gotta get the language right someguy!  Has either of you had this experience? having anyone ask you to speak in meeting about a certain topic? When the rules against electronic devices were lifted in my area, the overseer made the announcement at the end of the Saturday afternoon meeting at convention. Highest population, highest authority. Yeah, I can believe that while GT is delivering an appropriate, needful message that he doesn't have the blessing of the upper worker levels. I hope it's helpful, though. |
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simon
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Post by simon on Jun 7, 2012 14:50:55 GMT -5
GT's message , given without notes, but with calm intelligence, feeling and compassion. This was history in the making for the Antipodes . And Auckland was privileged to witness the whole package, not just the words.
Only one thing missing in it , and GT was not in the position to give it. All it neded was an assurance that this would be NZ's stance.
Only one man can give that assurance , and many of us here are sharing that hope and praying that the ministry, Alan , Trevor and the other top brass, will put aside their feelings and will endorse the message, so that an unambiguous position can be seen by all. and applied .
The best time for them to endorse this message will be a public statement from the different platforms on this coming Sunday, the day of the final Midyear/Special Meetings in NZ. Alan can endorse it in one place, Max in another, Stan in another , David in another, Trevor in another ....and the list goes on. It would require enormous humility on their parts. Are they able for it ?
GT, of all workers in NZ and Australia , and for all I know, around the world, lives free from fear of man. He is a person who will follow his convictions whatever the cost. And the cost has been high. For one thing, just look at all the workers lists for the last 6 to 8 years( until 2012) It gives a picture of a man who is prepared to be nothing in the eyes of man and his peers, rather than be untrue to his convictions, or be a part of the continual covering up of perpetuating wrongs . We could be reasonably sure he would not be bought by offers of convention tours, by offers of "positions" of responsibility, if such offers were to come with the price tag of silence. He is a man for all seasons
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2012 15:03:47 GMT -5
Great post simon. That is exactly the picture I see from my information.
Maybe NZ can be a beacon of light here. The door is opened a crack, just have to let the light shine in.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2012 15:21:04 GMT -5
It is time to end the culture of worker secrecy haunting the fellowship. Open up the system. Workers need to be approachable. I am less concerned about the workers who have been caught than the one's who haven't been caught.
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Post by Grant on Jun 7, 2012 15:48:04 GMT -5
GT's message , given without notes, but with calm intelligence, feeling and compassion. This was history in the making for the Antipodes . And Auckland was privileged to witness the whole package, not just the words. Only one thing missing in it , and GT was not in the position to give it. All it neded was an assurance that this would be NZ's stance. Only one man can give that assurance , and many of us here are sharing that hope and praying that the ministry, Alan , Trevor and the other top brass, will put aside their feelings and will endorse the message, so that an unambiguous position can be seen by all. and applied . The best time for them to endorse this message will be a public statement from the different platforms on this coming Sunday, the day of the final Midyear/Special Meetings in NZ. Alan can endorse it in one place, Max in another, Stan in another , David in another, Trevor in another ....and the list goes on. It would require enormous humility on their parts. Are they able for it ? GT, of all workers in NZ and Australia , and for all I know, around the world, lives free from fear of man. He is a person who will follow his convictions whatever the cost. And the cost has been high. For one thing, just look at all the workers lists for the last 6 to 8 years( until 2012) It gives a picture of a man who is prepared to be nothing in the eyes of man and his peers, rather than be untrue to his convictions, or be a part of the continual covering up of perpetuating wrongs . We could be reasonably sure he would not be bought by offers of convention tours, by offers of "positions" of responsibility, if such offers were to come with the price tag of silence. He is a man for all seasons Max - come on!! You are joking of course!! Dressing women down about their dress privately, grooming younger male workers. Well known gay worker. Although there is an incident where he left the work to support another worker about 15 years ago, he later admitted his 'error' and returned. Trevor seems nice enough and preaches fairly conservative messages, nothing that would rock the boat and is laid back. I've never seen a homeless person that looks as well fed as him. |
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Post by quizzer on Jun 7, 2012 17:44:29 GMT -5
It is time to end the culture of worker secrecy haunting the fellowship. Open up the system. Workers need to be approachable. I am less concerned about the workers who have been caught than the one's who haven't been caught. Hey, have you been talking to the workers of Faith Mission? I hear they're very approachable. |
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Post by sharonw on Jun 7, 2012 19:02:33 GMT -5
Lyle, I have heard, is not an exclusivist worker. Living in the state that he ran in the past, the general doctrine being preached seemed pretty much exclusivist to me. I've yet to hear a worker preach what I would call a clearly inclusivist sermon. Wow, would that be refreshing. I have to wonder then if Lyle believes in the Trinity concept that he would be believing in the 2x2 fellowship as being the only True Way...not actually.... |
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Post by sharonw on Jun 7, 2012 19:09:43 GMT -5
Actually I know that is how it has worked. If it always works like that I don't know, but certainly people have been instructed to preach on certain things. So in your mind God is not in the picture? Why is it that God would not be in the picture, Kiwi? Do not those who are asked to speak about a certain topic not know how to kneel and get God's leading on any matter or topic? Perhaps it is a topic that those who asked for it to be spoken by so and so know that that so and so already has spoken on such topic and is well able to hold the audience with said topic. |
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Post by sharonw on Jun 7, 2012 19:12:03 GMT -5
Great that you can sit there in your great ivory set and pontificate about what others should, shouldn't,have and haven't done. How about you go and tell it to his face then  If you were thinking of the victims and how they feel you might spend more time on your knees to God about them than blathering about it here, it would certainly have more profit for the ones you feel about. yea, yea, some of the rest of us found kiwi's words a bit negative!  |
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Post by sharonw on Jun 7, 2012 19:25:53 GMT -5
I have to wonder then if Lyle believes in the Trinity concept that he would be believing in the 2x2 fellowship as being the only True Way...not actually.... I think some or many would be surprised at the lower than expected numbers of those in the F&W that believe: - in the trinity - only right ministry and way - F&W alone have chance of salvation. I would be surprised if the numbers for the above were greater than: - 25% - 50% - 33%. Just because someone does not state in testimony or sermon specifically about a belief does not mean that belief or the contrary is held. I suspect as to trinitarian believers in the 2x2 fellowship would be much less then 25%....it has been said to be a heresy by many workers and there's been people excommunicated for speaking about the trinity concept and that not so long ago in the midwest. As Lyle is one to march to his own drummer, he, like Graham Thompson have paid and will continue to pay for being greatly independent of the status quo as far as the beliefs of the ruling workers. It probably will never be known just how much these brother workers have had to face after having spoken publically in such a manner as GT has done this week....But it doesn't seem to bother them that they're not into preaching what others believe or what others are convicted of, etc. Again there are very few trinitarian believers in the fellowship....most who have believed that or learned of it to believe it do not stay in the fellowship because the fellowship doesn't not practice the necessary beliefs to testify of such a belief. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2012 19:29:59 GMT -5
I have to wonder then if Lyle believes in the Trinity concept that he would be believing in the 2x2 fellowship as being the only True Way...not actually.... I think some or many would be surprised at the lower than expected numbers of those in the F&W that believe: - in the trinity - only right ministry and way - F&W alone have chance of salvation. I would be surprised if the numbers for the above were greater than: - 25% - 50% - 33%. Just because someone does not state in testimony or sermon specifically about a belief does not mean that belief or the contrary is held. I doubt there are any non-exclusivist workers at all. 0%. Workers could best be categorized as "soft exclusivists" and "hardline exclusivists". I have known some non-exclusivist workers but all have since left the work. Exclusivity is such a bedrock concept of the F&W ministry group that it would be almost impossible to stay in the work and be honest about your non-exclusive beliefs. I would put non-trinitarians at over 70% among the F&Ws as a whole Only right ministry belief.....90+% |
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Post by JO on Jun 8, 2012 0:54:25 GMT -5
It would be best for anyone who wishes to discuss the trinity to start a new thread.
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Post by kiwi on Jun 8, 2012 1:07:13 GMT -5
Kiwi, I guess that I am reading wrong when Jesus, Himself, encountered the mad man in chains. Sorry, can you copy and paste that account from your bible for me. Mine is that dumb old King James one, and I know it has a lot of really messed up messages in it, according to the 2x2's I know you don't want to be where I am, but I still have hope for you. You can't fight someone loving you, in spite of the fact that you can be quite unlovable. Sorry, mate, but I still think you will make it............ The message in that story is not about his mental state but what Jesus could do for Him.  |
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Post by kiwi on Jun 8, 2012 1:08:20 GMT -5
Actually noels and I are very much on the same page kiwi. I don't see noels on this page at all.  |
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Post by kiwi on Jun 8, 2012 1:09:27 GMT -5
Do you know Graham? Do you know how he is seen here? And you are quite wrong to think that he is any independent in this fellowship, he is very much one of us as we are of him. Aren't the other workers trying to get Alan R out and put Graham T in his place? This was before Mondays sermon on CSA. What a funny thing to say. |
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Post by kiwi on Jun 8, 2012 1:11:36 GMT -5
Refreshing to hear! Legality and Morality instead of legalism... A helpful and contemporary sermon Kiwi, what was the gist of the sermon on marriage? Interested to know... To follow to the letter Gods will on the matter. |
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Post by kiwi on Jun 8, 2012 1:13:25 GMT -5
Well I grew up with him and I know he don't work as an independant. What do you mean by "work as an independent"? Separated from and on a different page. And your meaning? |
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Post by kiwi on Jun 8, 2012 1:25:49 GMT -5
So in your mind God is not in the picture? Why is it that God would not be in the picture, Kiwi? Do not those who are asked to speak about a certain topic not know how to kneel and get God's leading on any matter or topic? Perhaps it is a topic that those who asked for it to be spoken by so and so know that that so and so already has spoken on such topic and is well able to hold the audience with said topic. Don't ask me the question but ask the person I was asking the question of. |
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Post by kiwi on Jun 8, 2012 1:37:12 GMT -5
yea, yea, some of the rest of us found kiwi's words a bit negative! What do you expect when you are sitting in your ivory seat pointing you big finger at others from one who does no wrong? |
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 8, 2012 1:54:14 GMT -5
When the rules against electronic devices were lifted in my area, the overseer made the announcement at the end of the Saturday afternoon meeting at convention. Highest population, highest authority. Interesting. What did he say? "Rule number 382 has been repealed?" Or what? |
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 8, 2012 1:58:20 GMT -5
I think some or many would be surprised at the lower than expected numbers of those in the F&W that believe: - in the trinity - only right ministry and way - F&W alone have chance of salvation. I would be surprised if the numbers for the above were greater than: - 25% - 50% - 33%. Just because someone does not state in testimony or sermon specifically about a belief does not mean that belief or the contrary is held. 25% that do believe in the trinity or 25% that don't? I doubt there's even 25% that don't, although I know there are some. I suspect as to trinitarian believers in the 2x2 fellowship would be much less then 25%. Yeah, I doubt that since it's so clearly taught in the Bible and we all read the Bible. Again, I'm sure not everyone understands it. Marches to his own drummer, or to the Spirit of God? I hope it's the latter. Well, I think certain types of 'actions' against them would probably become known... but maybe other types would not. |
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 8, 2012 2:12:54 GMT -5
Look here enuf, everyone knows what CSA stands for. Even Abraham Lincoln detested the very thing and was at war with it. He saw many people in bondage to it and wanted to set them free. Indeed, Abraham Lincoln was in favor of universal sexual abuse. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2012 5:41:55 GMT -5
What do you mean by "work as an independent"? Separated from and on a different page. And your meaning? Not subject to the dominion of man's religious rule. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2012 5:44:27 GMT -5
Look here enuf, everyone knows what CSA stands for. Even Abraham Lincoln detested the very thing and was at war with it. He saw many people in bondage to it and wanted to set them free. Indeed, Abraham Lincoln was in favor of universal sexual abuse. You gotta watch that ram, he can be very witty. CSA = Confederate States of America |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2012 5:53:54 GMT -5
It would be best for anyone who wishes to discuss the trinity to start a new thread. The connection to this thread is with regard to the independence of workers to be able to deal with CSA and speak about it according to their consciences such as GT and LS. If a worker speaks freely in favour of the trinity, I would suggest that he is pretty independent of the herd. Even if I didn't agree with the trinity theory, I would be a bit more trusting of that worker because he going against the mainstream and demonstrates that he will stand up for what he believes against the crowd. If a worker speaks openly of his non-exclusiveness, he would be truly an independent person because the concept of non-exclusiveness is so strongly opposed by all his colleagues. The problem with a person who goes along with the crowd all the time is that they can't be trusted to do the right thing when necessary. |
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 8, 2012 8:56:34 GMT -5
Even if I didn't agree with the trinity theory, I would be a bit more trusting of that worker because he going against the mainstream and demonstrates that he will stand up for what he believes against the crowd. So let's say believe in the trinity and the vast majority of preachers in the group are preaching the trinity and this worker were preaching against it. You'd be more trusting of him because he's a heretic? I don't know where you get "so strongly opposed by all his colleages". Actually, it's not that many that actually speak in ways strongly suggesting exclusivity in the un-Biblical sense. There is certainly a suggestion of it in the words of some, but it's not that common... maybe 1-2 at a convention. Certainly if that's what really influences and motivates them, yeah. But I don't think a person is more credible for teaching a false doctrine that opposes the majority. It might 'prove' that he's not merely following the crowd, but he's still a false teacher. |
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Post by calleduntoliberty on Jun 8, 2012 8:58:53 GMT -5
Indeed, Abraham Lincoln was in favor of universal sexual abuse. You gotta watch that ram, he can be very witty. CSA = Confederate States of America Which were opposed by...... Would it help if I capitalized the words? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2012 9:09:01 GMT -5
Even if I didn't agree with the trinity theory, I would be a bit more trusting of that worker because he going against the mainstream and demonstrates that he will stand up for what he believes against the crowd. So let's say believe in the trinity and the vast majority of preachers in the group are preaching the trinity and this worker were preaching against it. You'd be more trusting of him because he's a heretic? My explanation was pretty clear but I will try again since it was not clearly received. A person who is willing to stand up for what they believe is more trustworthy. It speaks of their integrity, not their intelligence, wisdom or ability to discern right from wrong doctrine. The belief in the exclusive ministry and fellowship in the form of the Friends and Workers meetings and conventions is a bedrock belief of all known workers at this time. Let's not beat around the bushes and try to fool one another on that issue with a biblical vs un-biblical argument. Workers all believe they are in the only right ministry and associated with the only right fellowship.....plain and simple. If it was any other way, it would be plainly obvious in both their words and their actions. There may be some who don't believe it but they don't talk about it so they cannot be identified if they exist. [/quote] Again, at the risk of repeating myself, standing up for what you believe in the midst of a crowd that believes otherwise speaks very highly of your integrity. It speaks nothing of whether or not your belief is nutty or righteous. What a few people don't understand is that it is most important to get your integrity right first and foremost, then you work on getting your beliefs and teachings right. It is a disaster if the second tries to go before the first. In fact, it is a soul-killer. |
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