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Post by apple on May 11, 2012 18:04:26 GMT -5
Unfortunately, another CSI case.  "As a child I was sexual abused for many years by a church member (also a relative). My family hid this as they didn’t want upheaval in the church. I was told in around about way that it was the lesser of two evils for me to be a sacrifice for the family and the church. It was more important that his family not leave the church...In my early teens the worker of my area, (also a head worker in the province) was told...He talked to the person alone and asked him to destroy evidence. The elders were told but were asked to keep it secret. He said, Hey sorry about that, hope we can still be friends. This man continued to attend church and speak. He was still allowed around children without supervision and no authorities were informed... In my early twenties I decided to make a statement and have him charged because I felt he was harming his children and felt by not doing anything I was no better than the others who had done nothing. Eventually he pleaded guilty to numerous sexual abuse charges and given a year house arrest. That day in court, he pleaded guilty and sat in the front row with his wife, parents and other members of the church. I sat with my father and a court official.
Do you know how that feels? To be alone again? Since I was a child I had issues with my immediate family for letting this happen to me, so I was already an the outsider as far as they were concerned. However, the final straw was when I reported him and had him charged almost all of my family have disowned me. The friends in the area and workers have exiled me. They do not speak to me and are very rude if they happen to come upon me. He is still a member and attends all church gatherings. No worker has spoken to the area about this issue so it has been left to rumours. They have been told by the perpetrator and his wife he plead guilty to it because he was tired of it and didn’t want to drag the whole family through anything else. He claimed as well that I got money out of it…even though it was criminal not civil case. I didn’t receive a penny! I would like to know why I am the problem?"dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2012/05/11/from-comm2post-commentary-and-editing-by-di-of-onthepaths-comments-on-the-2x2-religion/ |
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Post by Angelina Mouse on May 11, 2012 18:21:45 GMT -5
This is a very sad case also. This poor person needs to know that there are people who care and would help them if possible. Just sickening that this person is a victimof the perpetrator but also "the mtg people".
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Post by apple on May 11, 2012 18:35:40 GMT -5
This is a very sad case also. This poor person needs to know that there are people who care and would help them if possible. Just sickening that this person is a victimof the perpetrator but also "the mtg people". I agree. Why can't the workers see that they are harming children when they don't speak out and when they don't go to the police? Childhood is the most important and most impressionable years of our lives. What kind of a childhood was that! *shakes head* |
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Post by rational on May 11, 2012 22:00:33 GMT -5
I agree. Why can't the workers see that they are harming children when they don't speak out and when they don't go to the police? Childhood is the most important and most impressionable years of our lives. What kind of a childhood was that! *shakes head* While this is a sad case and involves criminal activities what about this phrase: My family hid this as they didn’t want upheaval in the church.How does this become: Why can't the workers see that they are harming children when they don't speak out and when they don't go to the police?It looks like a lot of people need to be educated about how to deal with this. While everyone who was informed has to accept responsibility I can't help but ask how the parents, the people who are supposed to protect their children, could hid this fact. As long as the blame is placed only on the workers CSA will continue to be a problem. While the F&W certainly make a great scapegoat there are some serious problems with the way the family is functioning. And the ethical behavior of the the people informed, workers, elders, and others, is a disgrace. |
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2012 2:32:15 GMT -5
I agree. Why can't the workers see that they are harming children when they don't speak out and when they don't go to the police? Childhood is the most important and most impressionable years of our lives. What kind of a childhood was that! *shakes head* While this is a sad case and involves criminal activities what about this phrase: My family hid this as they didn’t want upheaval in the church.How does this become: Why can't the workers see that they are harming children when they don't speak out and when they don't go to the police?It looks like a lot of people need to be educated about how to deal with this. While everyone who was informed has to accept responsibility I can't help but ask how the parents, the people who are supposed to protect their children, could hid this fact. As long as the blame is placed only on the workers CSA will continue to be a problem. While the F&W certainly make a great scapegoat there are some serious problems with the way the family is functioning. And the ethical behavior of the the people informed, workers, elders, and others, is a disgrace. This is where I see the influence of a cult factor controlling the minds of the parents. There's no doubt about it that people are out to please the workers and are largely governed by what the workers want and think, OR, perhaps more appropriately in some cases, "what they perceive the workers to want or think!" Yes parents need, for the sake of their children, to reclaim their lives, their common sense, rationale and logic. They can find it just outside the door of the gospel meeting hall where they left it. |
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Post by apple on May 12, 2012 10:48:58 GMT -5
While this is a sad case and involves criminal activities what about this phrase: My family hid this as they didn’t want upheaval in the church.How does this become: Why can't the workers see that they are harming children when they don't speak out and when they don't go to the police?It looks like a lot of people need to be educated about how to deal with this. While everyone who was informed has to accept responsibility I can't help but ask how the parents, the people who are supposed to protect their children, could hid this fact. As long as the blame is placed only on the workers CSA will continue to be a problem. While the F&W certainly make a great scapegoat there are some serious problems with the way the family is functioning. And the ethical behavior of the the people informed, workers, elders, and others, is a disgrace. This is where I see the influence of a cult factor controlling the minds of the parents. There's no doubt about it that people are out to please the workers and are largely governed by what the workers want and think, OR, perhaps more appropriately in some cases, "what they perceive the workers to want or think!" Yes parents need, for the sake of their children, to reclaim their lives, their common sense, rationale and logic. They can find out just outside the door of the gospel meeting hall where they left it. +1 rational, meetings parents are trained from childhood by their own parents to please the workers and to obey the workers' rules. To them, the workers represent the ultimate authority in their lives, and an authority which they perceive to be higher than the law of the land. In cases of child sex abuse in cults, the parents often regard their children to be lying because they believe their group to be perfect and to hear otherwise and believe is to shatter their faith in a perfect group. In the meetings the trend seems to be the parents ignore their child's cry or else will take their concerns to the workers instead of the police. The workers then make sure that the parents do not go to the police which makes them also responsible. In this case, workers told the abuser to destroy the evidence! |
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Post by Greg on May 12, 2012 12:15:41 GMT -5
Might be time for some criminal and/or civil lawsuits. Get a number of victims and make claims against perpetrators, moms and dads, and overseers.
Ira might be a good witness in the USA, as much as a socio-path (or whatever deviancy he has) might be for a witness. Likely he has "the goods" on some overseers of whom moved who where and when. And some of those overseers are likely dead, so better get a move on.
Mom and dad could plead guilty for their part in hiding the incidents and perpetrators and facilitators (overseers). This would give some validity to the lawsuits. Might ease their conscience, too, if it needs that. Might even get a perpetrator to turn on overseers..."they knew and did nothing to help me!"
The best defense for the overseers likely would be along the lines of "We did what we thought was best for all." This would entail:
- We thought the Godly ministry might have positive influence.
- We thought we could monitor the offenders.
- We did not want to subject the victims to more emotional harm by bringing the offense to public attention.
- We have hundreds of F&W praying for victims and perps.
- We were as ignorant of the nature of pedophiles and other deviants as most others.
The workers could go to their converts and get $100 or so from each and set-up a $20,000,000 fund for counseling. And if need be, dip into their reserves.
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Post by apple on May 12, 2012 12:27:11 GMT -5
Might be time for some criminal and/or civil lawsuits. Get a number of victims and make claims against perpetrators, moms and dads, and overseers. Ira might be a good witness in the USA, as much as a socio-path (or whatever deviancy he has) might be for a witness. Likely he has "the goods" on some overseers of whom moved who where and when. And some of those overseers are likely dead, so better get a move on. Mom and dad could plead guilty for their part in hiding the incidents and perpetrators and facilitators (overseers). This would give some validity to the lawsuits. Might ease their conscience, too, if it needs that. Might even get a perpetrator to turn on overseers..."they knew and did nothing to help me!" The best defense for the overseers likely would be along the lines of "We did what we thought was best for all." This would entail: - We thought the Godly ministry might have positive influence. - We thought we could monitor the offenders. - We did not want to subject the victims to more emotional harm by bringing the offense to public attention. - We have hundreds of F&W praying for victims and perps. - We were as ignorant of the nature of pedophiles and other deviants as most others. The workers could go to their converts and get $100 or so from each and set-up a $20,000,000 fund for counseling. And if need be, dip into their reserves. This is not what the victim is asking though. In the piece, the victim clearly wants everyone to know how badly he or she was treated, the victim wants the meetings people to stop taking the abuser's side, the victim wants justice and the victim wants the abuser not to be allowed in such a position again that he could abuse like he did (it looks like he is free to carry on abusing). Afterthought: it would be good if the professing folks on this forum showed support for the victims. They could start right now on this forum or on the blog along with asking the workers about their behaviour in these cases. Those who do know an abuser, they should show outward support for the victim, adhere to the biblical standard for those who do not repent (ie- to show remorse & and stop such behaviour) which is shunning. |
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Post by Greg on May 12, 2012 14:24:15 GMT -5
Might be time for some criminal and/or civil lawsuits. Get a number of victims and make claims against perpetrators, moms and dads, and overseers. Ira might be a good witness in the USA, as much as a socio-path (or whatever deviancy he has) might be for a witness. Likely he has "the goods" on some overseers of whom moved who where and when. And some of those overseers are likely dead, so better get a move on. Mom and dad could plead guilty for their part in hiding the incidents and perpetrators and facilitators (overseers). This would give some validity to the lawsuits. Might ease their conscience, too, if it needs that. Might even get a perpetrator to turn on overseers..."they knew and did nothing to help me!" The best defense for the overseers likely would be along the lines of "We did what we thought was best for all." This would entail: - We thought the Godly ministry might have positive influence. - We thought we could monitor the offenders. - We did not want to subject the victims to more emotional harm by bringing the offense to public attention. - We have hundreds of F&W praying for victims and perps. - We were as ignorant of the nature of pedophiles and other deviants as most others. The workers could go to their converts and get $100 or so from each and set-up a $20,000,000 fund for counseling. And if need be, dip into their reserves. This is not what the victim is asking though. In the piece, the victim clearly wants everyone to know how badly he or she was treated, the victim wants the meetings people to stop taking the abuser's side, the victim wants justice and the victim wants the abuser not to be allowed in such a position again that he could abuse like he did (it looks like he is free to carry on abusing). Afterthought: it would be good if the professing folks on this forum showed support for the victims. They could start right now on this forum or on the blog along with asking the workers about their behaviour in these cases. Those who do know an abuser, they should show outward support for the victim, adhere to the biblical standard for those who do not repent (ie- to show remorse & and stop such behaviour) which is shunning. The ideal is there are no incidents and no false reports. Second to ideal is an incident happens, the victim goes to the parents and they accept the victim's account, and then they go to the overseer and the overseer accepts the parents' account. The victim gets help and the perpetrator gets help. After that it all goes down hill...at the bottom, repeat offenders and victims with no help. |
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Post by jwatt on May 12, 2012 22:53:59 GMT -5
This is getting rediculous, somebody needs to start taking these matters seriously. Innocent children need to be looked after in a safe environment.
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Post by sharonw on May 14, 2012 2:07:12 GMT -5
This link provides the pain of a poor little abused child and I hope it yanks the tears out of eyes and hearts are moved to learn more of how to handle this scourge that is taking over the fellowship. www.my-tgif.com/faceofchildabuse.html |
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Post by rational on May 14, 2012 8:23:13 GMT -5
rational, meetings parents are trained from childhood by their own parents to please the workers and to obey the workers' rules. This is not an excuse for bad/illegal/unethical behavior. If one of the F&W killed someone to please a worker would you offer thew same excuse? As I said, the F&W make a great scapegoat. "Parents are trained from childhood by their own parents to please the workers and to obey the workers' rules." This is a variation on "I was ordered to do it." It didn't carry any weight at Nuremberg, it is not an acceptable excuse in the courts today. No. They would not kill for the F&W. The problem is that the abuse involves sex and has already happened. Reporting does not prevent the existing case and they will make sure to protect the ones they care about from future cases. And the others who will be hurt because of their lack of any moral code to report it - well, they are the responsibility of someone else. These are poor excuses for not doing the ethical thing. Like the parents of the case in MI, the parents knew it was wrong, knew it should be reported, but until pushed into it they remained silent for over 2 years while the criminal was free to inflict more damage. They did not come forward until they knew someone else was going to report. And oddly enough, no one seems to know the profession of either parent and if their profession had some bearing on their decision to report once they heard a report would be made. This is not true to any greater degree than it is in the general population. The same behavior is seen in many cases. Yes it does. Yes they did and the problem is that the parents did. |
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Post by apple on May 18, 2012 7:45:20 GMT -5
This is getting rediculous, somebody needs to start taking these matters seriously. Innocent children need to be looked after in a safe environment. I totally agree. The problem is that in the meetings onlookers seem to just want to pass on the responsibility of reporting abuse to someone else. Nobody wants to make a stand. |
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Post by apple on May 18, 2012 8:15:56 GMT -5
rational, meetings parents are trained from childhood by their own parents to please the workers and to obey the workers' rules. This is not an excuse for bad/illegal/unethical behavior. If one of the F&W killed someone to please a worker would you offer thew same excuse? As I said, the F&W make a great scapegoat. "Parents are trained from childhood by their own parents to please the workers and to obey the workers' rules." This is a variation on "I was ordered to do it." It didn't carry any weight at Nuremberg, it is not an acceptable excuse in the courts today. No. They would not kill for the F&W. The problem is that the abuse involves sex and has already happened. Reporting does not prevent the existing case and they will make sure to protect the ones they care about from future cases. And the others who will be hurt because of their lack of any moral code to report it - well, they are the responsibility of someone else. These are poor excuses for not doing the ethical thing. Like the parents of the case in MI, the parents knew it was wrong, knew it should be reported, but until pushed into it they remained silent for over 2 years while the criminal was free to inflict more damage. They did not come forward until they knew someone else was going to report. And oddly enough, no one seems to know the profession of either parent and if their profession had some bearing on their decision to report once they heard a report would be made. This is not true to any greater degree than it is in the general population. The same behavior is seen in many cases. Yes it does. Yes they did and the problem is that the parents did. How you know that a professing person would not kill for a worker? Maybe there are a few who would!! Yes, may people in WW2 Germany gave the "because I was told to" excuse for their behaviour but when we look at the desperate situation prior to the WW2, we gain a clearer understanding as to why they acted the way they did. Germany entered WW1 because it had an alliance with a neighbouring country and although Germany did not start WW1, Germany was blamed. The result was German money became worthless with people bankrupt, homeless and starving. Hitler came along promising a better future, provided jobs with his army, secret police, his VW cars and autobahns- and as a result people were so grateful they willingly turned a blind eye to the darker side of Hitler's regime. In a more minor sense, this applies to those parents in the meetings. The meetings provide a secure community for them, for many their friends and relations are all in the group, many do not have any close friends outside the meetings and not only that, it has been drummed into them from childhood that the meetings are the "only true way", that to disobey the workers is "to disobey God Himself" with the end result of hell. They are also aware of the treatment of those who leave- malicious gossip, the workers preaching against that person and avoidance. So when their child complains of abuse inside the meetings, they know that to go to the police will result in a break of their relationships inside the meetings and shunning. They know the workers will kick them out- which to them means hell. In other words, they will lose many of their friends and family and in their eyes, be destined for hell. Such people think it better to remain in the meetings when their child was abused and go to heaven, than go to the police and have them and their child end up in hell. This is was they are conditioned to believe- by the workers. Because of these factors, only a little of the blame lies with the parents. The majority of the blame lies with the workers, because it is they who tell parents not to go to the police, because it is they who fed the lies from childhood that make parents afraid to to disobey them and because they break the law when they do not report such cases to the police. |
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on May 18, 2012 8:28:30 GMT -5
This is getting rediculous, somebody needs to start taking these matters seriously. Innocent children need to be looked after in a safe environment. I totally agree. The problem is that in the meetings onlookers seem to just want to pass on the responsibility of reporting abuse to someone else. Nobody wants to make a stand. I agree and the time to start is now. It is sad, but just bringing up the past is not going to cure the problem.It has to stop in our day and on our watch. |
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Post by rational on May 18, 2012 11:36:28 GMT -5
Because of these factors, only a little of the blame lies with the parents. The majority of the blame lies with the workers, because it is they who tell parents not to go to the police, because it is they who fed the lies from childhood that make parents afraid to to disobey them and because they break the law when they do not report such cases to the police. This is the type of logic that keeps child abuse alive and well. When a parent does not protect their child(ren) from abuse nor report it when it happens they are at fault. You can offer any number of excuses and reasons why these things happened but standing between a child and harm there should be a parent.You can blame the workers but who do you blame when it is the parents who are the source of the abuse? Certainly it is the workers fault if they abuse a child but it is the parent's fault if they know about it and do not report it. People need to take responsibility for their own actions. If I tell you to let your toddler out on the roof to play and the toddler falls who is at fault? |
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Post by emy on May 18, 2012 13:27:19 GMT -5
I know no such thing.
Absolutely. The problem seems to be, who is most responsible to report. I would say parents, provided they are not the abusers, or even if one is. Many want to cast the responsibility to workers.
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Post by fred on May 18, 2012 17:40:02 GMT -5
Bringing up the past is an essential part of the cure. It is about acknowledging what has happened in the past, expressing sorrow for it and showing what is being done to minimise it happening again.
We need to acknowledge the past and learn from it - if we can't learn from history then we are doomed to repeat it.
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Post by williamirvine7 on May 18, 2012 18:47:31 GMT -5
Unfortunately, another CSI case. "As a child I was sexual abused for many years by a church member (also a relative). My family hid this as they didn’t want upheaval in the church. I was told in around about way that it was the lesser of two evils for me to be a sacrifice for the family and the church. It was more important that his family not leave the church...In my early teens the worker of my area, (also a head worker in the province) was told...He talked to the person alone and asked him to destroy evidence. The elders were told but were asked to keep it secret. He said, Hey sorry about that, hope we can still be friends. This man continued to attend church and speak. He was still allowed around children without supervision and no authorities were informed... In my early twenties I decided to make a statement and have him charged because I felt he was harming his children and felt by not doing anything I was no better than the others who had done nothing. Eventually he pleaded guilty to numerous sexual abuse charges and given a year house arrest. That day in court, he pleaded guilty and sat in the front row with his wife, parents and other members of the church. I sat with my father and a court official.
Do you know how that feels? To be alone again? Since I was a child I had issues with my immediate family for letting this happen to me, so I was already an the outsider as far as they were concerned. However, the final straw was when I reported him and had him charged almost all of my family have disowned me. The friends in the area and workers have exiled me. They do not speak to me and are very rude if they happen to come upon me. He is still a member and attends all church gatherings. No worker has spoken to the area about this issue so it has been left to rumours. They have been told by the perpetrator and his wife he plead guilty to it because he was tired of it and didn’t want to drag the whole family through anything else. He claimed as well that I got money out of it…even though it was criminal not civil case. I didn’t receive a penny! I would like to know why I am the problem?"dialogueireland.wordpress.com/2012/05/11/from-comm2post-commentary-and-editing-by-di-of-onthepaths-comments-on-the-2x2-religion/Really good to read...stay strong I had no idea that CSA was going on in the perfect way.. good folks are speaking out..A real good overhauling of the group may be in order |
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2012 21:51:36 GMT -5
I know no such thing. Absolutely. The problem seems to be, who is most responsible to report. I would say parents, provided they are not the abusers, or even if one is. Many want to cast the responsibility to workers. There is no "most responsible to report". You need to start thinking outside of rational's myopic point of view. Everyone is fully responsible to report. If you have knowledge of, or reasonable suspicion of a crime of child abuse, you should report it......no matter who you are. |
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Post by Greg on May 18, 2012 23:01:51 GMT -5
Really good to read...stay strong I had no idea that CSA was going on in the perfect way.. good folks are speaking out..A real good overhauling of the group may be in order Fire every worker over 40 and have the elders appoint and approve workers. |
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Post by rational on May 19, 2012 20:15:29 GMT -5
Fire every worker over 40 and have the elders appoint and approve workers. Just elders who abuse or some other selection process? Are you making the implication that abusers are always over 40? |
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Post by Greg on May 19, 2012 21:36:25 GMT -5
Fire every worker over 40 and have the elders appoint and approve workers. Just elders who abuse or some other selection process? Are you making the implication that abusers are always over 40? Tthere probably would have to be a vetting process for elders and for the elder approved workers. My thought on the 40+ year old workers is that some or many of them would be associated with overseers that moved offending workers around. So, clean house, just don't blow everyone away. I s'pose sister workers could be exempt. |
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Post by apple on May 23, 2012 12:10:22 GMT -5
Because of these factors, only a little of the blame lies with the parents. The majority of the blame lies with the workers, because it is they who tell parents not to go to the police, because it is they who fed the lies from childhood that make parents afraid to to disobey them and because they break the law when they do not report such cases to the police. This is the type of logic that keeps child abuse alive and well. When a parent does not protect their child(ren) from abuse nor report it when it happens they are at fault. You can offer any number of excuses and reasons why these things happened but standing between a child and harm there should be a parent.You can blame the workers but who do you blame when it is the parents who are the source of the abuse? Certainly it is the workers fault if they abuse a child but it is the parent's fault if they know about it and do not report it. People need to take responsibility for their own actions. If I tell you to let your toddler out on the roof to play and the toddler falls who is at fault? , what I did say was due to the unusual psychological circumstances and control exerted by the workers, many parents in the meetings are not entirely to blame. The workers in this instance shoulder most of the blame because they chose to lie in court in defense of the abuser! Nor have they stopped the shunning and gossip about the victim when in their revered position, they could easily do so. In contrast, this victim had a parent supporting him/her throughout the trial. I am pretty certain that the workers used their "chosen by God" status to manipulate other family members and 2x2s into lying in court. They seem to excellent at lying: they lie about the founder of the group, they lie about the history of the group, they lie about what their believe to outsiders and they lie about being poor & homeless, so naturally it would be very easy for them to lie in court. It would also be easy for them as "God's chosen" with a "direct communication to God" to encourage people to believe them in favour of the victim. |
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Post by rational on May 23, 2012 12:41:43 GMT -5
This is the type of logic that keeps child abuse alive and well. When a parent does not protect their child(ren) from abuse nor report it when it happens they are at fault. You can offer any number of excuses and reasons why these things happened but standing between a child and harm there should be a parent.You can blame the workers but who do you blame when it is the parents who are the source of the abuse? Certainly it is the workers fault if they abuse a child but it is the parent's fault if they know about it and do not report it. People need to take responsibility for their own actions. If I tell you to let your toddler out on the roof to play and the toddler falls who is at fault? , what I did say was due to the unusual psychological circumstances and control exerted by the workers, many parents in the meetings are not entirely to blame. Actually, you said: ...only a little of the blame lies with the parents... and then went on to assign the majority of the blame to the workers. We are talking about adults. They can make decisions. They have morals. If they lied, and it can be proved, they should be tried for that crime. What does this have to do with who is responsible? As you would expect a parent to do. Now you have resorted to hearsay/opinion. And then the rest becomes an emotional out burst. There was abuse. - That was wrong. It was not reported by the parents - that was wrong. It was not reported by others who knew - that was wrong. In his teens the victim told but was not supported by anyone - that was wrong. In his 20's he pressed charges - this was right. His family disowned him - that was wrong. It sounds like his dad supported him - that was right. So we have a lot of wrongs but you want to place most of the blame on the workers. Reading the account it sounds like there were some pretty serious family issues as well. |
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Post by apple on May 23, 2012 20:34:32 GMT -5
"There was abuse. - That was wrong.
It was not reported by the parents - that was wrong.
It was not reported by others who knew - that was wrong.
In his teens the victim told but was not supported by anyone - that was wrong.
In his 20's he pressed charges - this was right.
His family disowned him - that was wrong.
It sounds like his dad supported him - that was right."
You forgot to include:
It was not reported by the workers - that was wrong.
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Post by rational on May 29, 2012 19:59:46 GMT -5
"There was abuse. - That was wrong. It was not reported by the parents - that was wrong. It was not reported by others who knew - that was wrong. In his teens the victim told but was not supported by anyone - that was wrong. In his 20's he pressed charges - this was right. His family disowned him - that was wrong. It sounds like his dad supported him - that was right." You forgot to include: It was not reported by the workers - that was wrong.No, because I am not hyper-focused on demonizing the workers and blaming all my woes on the F&W I simply stated: "It was not reported by others who knew - that was wrong." |
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Post by buzzybee on May 29, 2012 21:16:10 GMT -5
Are not Clergy required by law to report all reports and allegations of CSA? At least "real" clergy are.
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