Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2008 0:04:11 GMT -5
Clearday, are you saying you are not "laity"? You will have to give a little more insight to the system - or Pink will - to convince me that humble men are not the ones chosen. Mark Huddle, Jim Price, Lyle Schober, Dale Schultz, and Dean Breuer come to mind. Yes I'm laity and once believed that there were no ambitious men amongst the ministry. I know only one personally of your list, and you just proved my point, the perfect example.
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Post by Does anyone know on Jul 13, 2008 14:06:36 GMT -5
Has there ever been an overseer that has asked to be removed from the JOB? Does he not know to much inside information to just walk away? He is the only one that knows how much money there is and who has it. I don't believe the elders ever discuss this with each other. Even the younger workers would not know this detail. It is an authority that comes with pride. Not humbleness. The system was a man made system among the most powerful workers and that is how it will always be. It is said that Jerome would like to be over the East. That does not sound humble to me. The biggest problem is, who among the overseers can remove a overseer that has overstepped his boundaries? What makes one more powerful than another? That is a problem. Also those sneaky meetings that they have. They sure aren't discussing the bible.
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Post by ooT on Jul 13, 2008 14:14:40 GMT -5
<< I know only one personally of your list, and you just proved my point, the perfect example. >>
Are you saying I am the perfect example of the unsuspecting laity, or one of the men on my list is the perfect example of false humility? If the latter, please identify.
<< They sure aren't discussing the bible. >>
And you know this, ...how?
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Post by For oot on Jul 13, 2008 14:20:49 GMT -5
If we were having a meeting to dicuss the bible, would you not want everyone there to learn? Secret meetings are about secrets. God's great book is not a SECRET!
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Post by greenthumb on Jul 13, 2008 14:21:41 GMT -5
Has there ever been an overseer that has asked to be removed from the JOB? Does he not know to much inside information to just walk away? He is the only one that knows how much money there is and who has it. I don't believe the elders ever discuss this with each other. Even the younger workers would not know this detail. It is an authority that comes with pride. Not humbleness. The system was a man made system among the most powerful workers and that is how it will always be. It is said that Jerome would like to be over the East. That does not sound humble to me. The biggest problem is, who among the overseers can remove a overseer that has overstepped his boundaries? What makes one more powerful than another? That is a problem. Also those sneaky meetings that they have. They sure aren't discussing the bible. You are very wrong! Jerome would never want place. He did not feel able or worthy to be an overseer. The meetings that the overseers have are like a Sunday morning meeting but without the emblems. Of course later other things are discussed. There is a lot of prayer that goes along with making plans, etc. Yes there have been those who have asked to step down. Mainly because of age. I don't see a "System" amongst the fellowship. I see an order in the way things are done.
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Post by a reader on Jul 14, 2008 14:27:06 GMT -5
Someone asked if Overseers have ever ASKED to be relieved of their duties - well, I might as well stick my neck out here and report what I have 'heard' without any facts backing it up, because a lot of what is posted here on the TMB is just 'heard' and not really involved in the case. " Lecil Sullivan left overseer-ship and went to Michigan and 'stepped down' due to the stir about his behavior" - was he asked to step down or did he offer to step down ?? Not sure, but he didn't move to another state to cover up and continue to be overseer. "Gaylen VanLoon asked to be relieved of his duties" In reference to the 'secret meetings' of the overseers - and those who think everything should be public knowledge and open meetings. Are you parents?? Do you involve your children in every discussion you and your spouse have?? No, why not?? What's the secret?? Maybe the children should leave the home unite and break away from the bondage and search for the liberty that all are writing about here !? What about organizations, businesses, government - all have meetings that are not public information, publicized, announced, etc. decisions that are made regarding management, etc. do NOT have to be declared to everyone - yes, stock holders, investors, etc. all have the right to know where their money is going - but christians that are following Christ, and being shephered by those who care for their soul, and trusting in the guidance of the Holy Spirit on those who have the care for their soul Where's faith in the OVERSEER of all overseers? Now, all of you who don't believe in any authority figure to give you any advice, counsel, or correction (most of all correction) you are free to pick this apart and make a thousand more threads and entries on the statements I made because I'm an INNIE and maybe even a worker?? Horrors, a worker posting as a guest ?? What are we coming too?? whew . . .
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Post by betrue on Jul 14, 2008 17:50:29 GMT -5
Reader, I'm glad you've read and posted too. I've appreciated Jerome's wisdom, his quiet humble spirit and his willingness to keep his life on the alter, preaching the gospel. I'm very thankful he's the Overseer in Michigan. I hope he will continue for many, many years.
The issues going on in Michigan didn't originate with Jerome. When 18 year old children run to the workers in fear, right after convention and begging for help, something is very amiss. When have we ever seen that before??
Child abuse has been substaniated by CPS and the courts - with this family. But the family continually faults Jerome and the sister workers, instead of taking any responsibility for their actions. They thought they could prevent any allegations from being reported.
When Jerome followed the child protection law, the twins filed assult charges with the police and the sister workers, as mandated reporters, reported what they'd been told to Children's protective services, the family became enraged and are still stuck there.
God sees & knows our heart... by how we take correction as his children. He corrects us in a spirit of love and our part is to accept the correction, given in love.
The family wants their own children to always honor and obey them as parents - but when it comes to obeying the Michigan Law or those in the Ministry / Overseer within this fellowship, they refuse any correction or counsel. Child abuse is not an option as a way to correct children. It wounds hearts and breaks the child's spirit - that's not the love our Father taught us.
It's amazing that after all the years in this fellowship the family suddenly finds fault with Overseers, and the meetings Overseers have to plan and talk things out, by the Spirit's leading, as soon as any correction came their way. They feel hate from everyone, when the correction comes - in love.
Thanks for your posting. BeTrue
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Post by degem on Jul 14, 2008 20:02:40 GMT -5
To betrue, I don't know who you are personally. But your beautiful spirit shows through your posts. Gem
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Post by a reader on Jul 14, 2008 20:24:00 GMT -5
By the way, I've never known an overseer to be as 'available' as Jerome has been to anyone - I have known him to travel all hours of the night (gas prices are high, sure, but souls need comfort too) in order to be at the bedside of someone dying - and I'm sure if any of the family involved in the present situation called at any time and said, Jerome, we really need to see you and make peace with you - he would be there as soon as any vehicle at his disposition would get him there. He's giving himself to the kingdom in the truest sense of the word. . . .giving. . . . Thanks for your posts too Gem - I appreciate your spirit too as well as BeTrue - both names very appropriate. Wish I knew you too !
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Post by yes on Jul 14, 2008 20:31:30 GMT -5
Has there ever been an overseer that has asked to be removed from the JOB? *** Ira Hobbs of Texas. Bob Ingram of Alaska. It takes something bad...they don't get removed to abusing power.
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Post by lute1812 on Jul 14, 2008 20:40:31 GMT -5
It's great to linger in the shadows and see others that know more of the horrendous predicament come to the forefront. More rightly so ... with valuable and insightful information.
Versus those with a single agenda continuously spitting vermin and possessing zero answers.
Lute1812
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Jul 14, 2008 20:51:58 GMT -5
Not so fast. Parts of your fiasco are left out. Why do you think TV4, Lapeer County Prosecutor Byron Konschuh, and the other outlets? Are being very careful, in having, little to no reporting in this case anymore? Could it be because of a Liable Suit? And the DHS could they be by any chance, (as mentioned in court) tired "of the under current ". That keeps hurling accusations against the family. And if you want more facts search all the threads. I rest my case. O as to the letters J F Wrote, are they not in the D A's office and other legal departments? And so on. WK, Let's be clear 'betrue' is not me. Your above post makes no sense. "And if you want more facts search all the threads. I rest my case. ..." from above, there is a problem WK - you've deleted a number of your posts which degrades your integrity. I'm not in the courtroom, never have been, never will be, but I can absolutely GUARANTEE the reason that the case is closed to the public is NOT due to fears of a liability suit. That's the most ABSURDLY IRRATIONAL statement I have ever seen I can absolutely declare that if this case was/is HOGWASH everything would have been amicably resolved by now. But there's apparently some validity in the charges and most assuredly in today's society the precious innocence/naivety of the children's safety is the uppermost concern from the perspective of the ‘state of Michigan.’ PERIOD. No matter what anybody else wants. Lute1812 You seem to have an inferiority complex problem with yourself. Either you can't read or you simply love being a bully. If you haven't noticed yet I’ve answered all your questions. You still haven’t answered mine. You’re still sore because I've stood up to you. Plus you are still unable to get over the fact that I beat you at your own game. I'm waiting for your next response. Thanks WK. edited to fix broken html tags --mod3
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Post by very helpful on Jul 14, 2008 21:31:05 GMT -5
By the way, I've never known an overseer to be as 'available' as Jerome has been to anyone - I have known him to travel all hours of the night (gas prices are high, sure, but souls need comfort too) in order to be at the bedside of someone dying - and I'm sure if any of the family involved in the present situation called at any time and said, Jerome, we really need to see you and make peace with you - he would be there as soon as any vehicle at his disposition would get him there. He's giving himself to the kingdom in the truest sense of the word. . . .giving. . . . Thanks for your posts too Gem - I appreciate your spirit too as well as BeTrue - both names very appropriate. Wish I knew you too ! I have seen this many times too! Also I was one that he drove many hours to visit with. He is a very caring person and I will always remember his helpfulness and kindness. I'm sorry that others do not know him as some of us do.
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Pink
Senior Member
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Post by Pink on Jul 14, 2008 21:34:29 GMT -5
You are very wrong! Jerome would never want place. He did not feel able or worthy to be an overseer. The meetings that the overseers have are like a Sunday morning meeting but without the emblems. Of course later other things are discussed. There is a lot of prayer that goes along with making plans, etc. Yes there have been those who have asked to step down. Mainly because of age. I don't see a "System" amongst the fellowship. I see an order in the way things are done. Hi Greenthumb. While I think I understand where you are coming from and I don't pretend to know everything, I do feel I am intuitive enough to guide me along when things aren't black and white. That said.............Did you know that ** is STILL the overseer of ______(not in black and white) along with being overseer of __________, his home state(is in black and white)? He just can't seem to give up the reign/reins. The *current* overseer is only a figurehead. As was the one before him.
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Pink
Senior Member
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Post by Pink on Jul 14, 2008 21:36:31 GMT -5
By the way, I've never known an overseer to be as 'available' as Jerome has been to anyone - I have known him to travel all hours of the night (gas prices are high, sure, but souls need comfort too) in order to be at the bedside of someone dying - and I'm sure if any of the family involved in the present situation called at any time and said, Jerome, we really need to see you and make peace with you - he would be there as soon as any vehicle at his disposition would get him there. He's giving himself to the kingdom in the truest sense of the word. . . .giving. . . . Thanks for your posts too Gem - I appreciate your spirit too as well as BeTrue - both names very appropriate. Wish I knew you too ! Jerome was in my mother's field for many many years. When she died, I didn't even get a sympathy card.
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Post by greenthumb on Jul 15, 2008 6:14:49 GMT -5
You are very wrong! Jerome would never want place. He did not feel able or worthy to be an overseer. The meetings that the overseers have are like a Sunday morning meeting but without the emblems. Of course later other things are discussed. There is a lot of prayer that goes along with making plans, etc. Yes there have been those who have asked to step down. Mainly because of age. I don't see a "System" amongst the fellowship. I see an order in the way things are done. Hi Greenthumb. While I think I understand where you are coming from and I don't pretend to know everything, I do feel I am intuitive enough to guide me along when things aren't black and white. That said.............Did you know that ** is STILL the overseer of ______(not in black and white) along with being overseer of __________, his home state(is in black and white)? He just can't seem to give up the reign/reins. The *current* overseer is only a figurehead. As was the one before him. He has not hung on to KY because he doesn't want to let go. The reason he is still helping out in KY is both of the young brothers felt unable for the responsibility. They have been very thankful for his help and guidance.
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Post by ohhh on Jul 15, 2008 9:20:17 GMT -5
whiteknight your posts give more than enough reason why certain members are still caught in the mayhem. jf will be arround after the dust settles. where will those who ar hung up in this casebe. keep posting absurdities on a number of threads, i wouldn't give my family name out either in your shoes!
ohhh
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Post by a reader on Jul 15, 2008 9:38:34 GMT -5
Jerome was in my mother's field for many many years. When she died, I didn't even get a sympathy card. I don't understand what you mean - was Jerome in your mother's field when she died? So did he have the funeral ? Or was he in another field at that time? Was he in YOUR field when your mother died? I wrote that he's serious about visiting those who need comfort - I don't know if he ever sends sympathy cards ! I didn't know that workers are now criticized for not sending sympathy cards ? Do they need to send birthday cards too? And congratulations on baby births, etc ?? Come on - be real - Reader
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Post by Scott Ross on Jul 15, 2008 10:22:45 GMT -5
Howdy a reader, Thanks for your posts too Gem - I appreciate your spirit too as well as BeTrue - both names very appropriate. Wish I knew you too !If you registered here, you would be able to PM those you would like to get to know. I have made a lot of friends here by doing so. Gem is a real gem, and I consider her to be my friend. Now, all of you who don't believe in any authority figure to give you any advice, counsel, or correction (most of all correction) you are free to pick this apart and make a thousand more threads and entries on the statements I made because I'm an INNIE and maybe even a worker?? Horrors, a worker posting as a guest ?? What are we coming too?? whew . . .The more workers that post here the better. It gives everyone a better understanding of what church doctrine is. We all have opinions to share, and for the most part we all think we are correct in our interpretation of scriptures. There are several workers that post here, and some of them are registered. There is nothing wrong with a worker giving correction to those who are not in line with church doctrine. It is when they give advise which has nothing to do with church issues where the problems arise. (my opinion of course ) You really should register so you can PM those you wish to get to know.... Scott
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Post by a reader on Jul 15, 2008 10:28:32 GMT -5
We're in touch by email already, Scott !! thanks for the advice tho', maybe someday. . .no one's asked for my name so far which is just as well ! Might shock them ! No, it's not Jerome !
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Post by Scott Ross on Jul 15, 2008 13:16:15 GMT -5
We're in touch by email already, Scott !! thanks for the advice tho', maybe someday. . .no one's asked for my name so far which is just as well ! Might shock them ! No, it's not Jerome ! ;D I was pretty sure that was you..... I wouldn't give out your name here. Too many folks would try to pin you down on different subjects..... You know, stuff like what ingredients go in to convention stew, and the scriptural reasons for the various ingredients used.... Scott
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Post by degem on Jul 15, 2008 13:31:50 GMT -5
First of all, my husband and I consider Scott to be our friend. And it has nothing to do with the fact that Scott is a fellow motorcyclist either And thank you "a reader" for your kind words and posts. Gem
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Post by kiwi on Jul 15, 2008 16:11:23 GMT -5
I don't know Jerome personally but thanks to those who have put Jerome in the light he truely is. I now know of what spirit he is and it delights my soul.
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Pink
Senior Member
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Post by Pink on Jul 15, 2008 16:36:23 GMT -5
Jerome was in my mother's field for many many years. When she died, I didn't even get a sympathy card. I don't understand what you mean - was Jerome in your mother's field when she died? So did he have the funeral ? Or was he in another field at that time? Was he in YOUR field when your mother died? I wrote that he's serious about visiting those who need comfort - I don't know if he ever sends sympathy cards ! I didn't know that workers are now criticized for not sending sympathy cards ? Do they need to send birthday cards too? And congratulations on baby births, etc ?? Come on - be real - Reader Oh whatever. He was not in HER field WHEN my mother died but he did know her very well and the circumstances of her death were different from the norm. I am not criticizing anyone for not sending out sympathy cards so just quit trying to raise a stink about me to quell the smell from him. And yes I have gotten sympathy cards, b-day cards, thinking of you cards, graduation cards, etc, etc., from all shapes and sizes of various workers. Is that somehow a problem? (please don't respond, it's not a requirement.) Making the smart aleck remark about him NOT sending one was to reinforce that if he is so grand upon that pedestal you put him on, he coulda/shoulda acknowledged her death in some small way. You would have to be there, you would have to know all the details, but I am done with this. And yes, my feelings were hurt.
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Post by a reader on Jul 15, 2008 17:36:05 GMT -5
Nathan wrote: "I knew a reader could have been a worker! Thanks, for taken the time posting on TMB.. Your posts are appreciated by others on here. "
Don't jump to assumptions, Nathan - I think in one of my posts I stated, that I MIGHT be a worker - I've never said I WAS or AM a worker. Yes, Scott knows who I am, and on his advice I won't give my name ! ;D
Pink, I'm sorry I didn't convey my sympathy to you in my post - I was thinking that I should have added that, as I didn't want it to sound like your mother's death was not a serious matter ! Please accept my apologies and excuse any sarcasm that seemed to be directed toward your mother's death or your sorrow at that time. I'm sorry that you feel Jerome didn't care about you or your mother . . . .I don't think he is a person to send sympathy cards or any other cards - and I think expecting someone to do what others do is what I meant about 'get real' - everyone is different - we were mentioning ways in which Jerome stands out - I personally saw him leave late at night, go clear across the state because a call had come that some little old person was close to death. I admire that quality in him. I too know of many workers who send all sorts of cards to people at all sorts of important events in life. I also admire that quality in others, but I don't want to blame the others who don't do such things. . . . hope this helps to make things right between us ??! keep posting please, I didn't mean to sound so harsh ! Now according to TMB's standards and measures, there is NO WAY anyone would think I am a worker, as I've just apologized for my behaviour ! (Sarcasm again . . .)
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Pink
Senior Member
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Post by Pink on Jul 15, 2008 19:44:37 GMT -5
Pink, I'm sorry I didn't convey sympathy to you in my post - I was thinking that I should have added that, as I didn't want it to sound like your mother's death was not a serious matter ! Please accept my apologies and excuse any sarcasm that seemed to be directed toward your mother's death or your sorrow at that time. I'm sorry that you feel Jerome didn't care about you or your mother . . . .I don't think he is a person to send sympathy cards or any other cards - and I think expecting someone to do what others do is what I meant about 'get real' - everyone is different - we were mentioning ways in which Jerome stands out - I personally saw him leave late at night, go clear across the state because a call had come that some little old person was close to death. I admire that quality in him. I too know of many workers who send all sorts of cards to people at all sorts of important events in life. I also admire that quality in others, but I don't want to blame the others who don't do such things. . . . hope this helps to make things right between us ??! keep posting please, I didn't mean to sound so harsh ! Now according to TMB's standards and measures, there is NO WAY anyone would think I am a worker, as I've just apologized for my behaviour ! (Sarcasm again . . .) That last line was really cute! o.k. I said I was done but then again I am a woman so I can change my mind...........(and my name, whew!) I guess what it's all about is that people are human, human, human. As I have said I know Jerome personally and yes, he does show compassion, a very human trait, not a God given, superhuman strength. We are all capable of compassion whether we are religious or not. But he also has his own downfalls and failures. (We have discussed them, I know some of them, from his own lips. Times when he did things, made decisions that in hindsight were not the compassionate, righteous thing to do. Nothing nasty or sordid, just everyday real life decisions that he made on the part of others that just wasn't the right decision for that person for that time, etc., etc., No one can be 100 percent all the time. And I don't mean to be picking on him but it is his thread even if it is by default. (default is probably not used correctly, but oh well. I love words and love at least trying to use them. One today that I love saying is discombobulation. Doesn't that sound AWESOME? Now, I just need an experience or sentence to use that in.) Sorry about the lack of paragraphs so here is a break................ We are all human, we all make rights and wrongs, all day, every day. It's how we grow. Think how staid and stuffy we would be if we were perfect. (Not an eternal perfect, that is totally different) Who wants to be around perfection all the time? It's good to see someone who we think has it all together, goof up, and then right their actions and try to do better because it inspires us to do the same. Oh well, I hardly know where I will end with this so let me just get this out so I can stop and quit boring you good people. Before my father in law died, Jerome had just been with him, visiting, really just lending his presence as my father in law was low. Then he (jf) left to continue onto one of his very needful places to be. He had driven probably 5 hrs and my husband called (jf) and said it didn't look like his father would make it through the night. Jerome said, Do you want me to come back? and we are like no, no, you were just here. You have driven so far already, you must be tired, it's not necessary, we will be fine, etc., etc., etc., But you know what? He said no, no, I will come back. I want to come back. Now, that, people is a beautiful spirit and wonderful thing. A human thing. I will never forget that act of kindness for the rest of my life. (kinda like what you witnessed) But people are not always perfect. Whatever is happening in MI, I am sure people have received both ends of it. The good and the bad. We shouldn't discredit anyones experience and try to make heroes out of people. This is LIFE! No ones perfect. We all make mistakes. It happens. But life is still wonderful and good and all that. OK for the inevitable disclaimer: I know I didn't express myself how I intended. I know someone will find one sentence or two or three and make it out like THIS when it was THAT. I know I am flighty and fruity but it works for me. And I still love Jerome as a brother in Christ. I just see him as a human, struggling to do what's right and making mistakes along the way, unintentionally hurting people, but don't we all? And again, I didn't EXPECT him to send a sympathy card and I am not placing blame on him for not doing it. That was a smart aleck remark because none of us are perfect. None of us get it right all of the time. His absence was just felt when he didn't acknowledge my mother's passing, for whatever reason, whether I was a crybaby at the time, a whiner, looking for the bad in everyone, whatever you want to call it. And....................he would still have a conniption watching Freespirit in the kitchen, dancing barefoot, swirling around singing Sweet Home Alabama, asking more Jalepenos? while slamming the fridge door shut with a sashay of the hip.
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Post by a reader on Jul 15, 2008 21:04:25 GMT -5
Well, why doesn't freespirit just make him a strong cup of coffee (just a 1/2 cup actually) and sit down and have a good visit instead of dancing around her kitchen barefoot singing some Alabama song ? Then no one has to have any type of fit and all will be glad for the fellowship ! btw, I went back and re-read some of your posts, Pink, and realized you did respect Jerome - that's great - no one wants him on a pedestal (himself included) so let's just respect the good in them, accept the bad in them (unless it's not scriptual) but if it's just the 'bad' as we see it as bad, then let it go - and not expect anything else ! Have a good night.
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Post by freespirit on Jul 15, 2008 21:19:11 GMT -5
And....................he would still have a conniption watching Freespirit in the kitchen, dancing barefoot, swirling around singing Sweet Home Alabama, asking more Jalepenos? while slamming the fridge door shut with a sashay of the hip. Oh, I'm sure he'll be just fine. After this mess he's dealing with right now, I'll probably seem like one of the sanest people on the planet. I doubt I would sing country music though--too ordinary for my taste. ;D Frankly I'd like to just sit him down and make him a pie and tell him that I was really sorry that he was getting slammed around so much on TMB--most of us need a little balm from time to time. Maybe we could talk about the Old Testament. Or maybe he could teach me something. I dunno. I like to talk to people. freespirit
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