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Post by R2D2 on Feb 7, 2007 8:30:22 GMT -5
I was the victim of an attempted seduction by a bender who still lives and professes in the UK.
I took the matter up with the head of the work who just advised me to stay away from the man, but no further action would be taken. He also informed me that they were aware of this mans problem.
As a young straight male I was gobsmacked at this response
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Post by ANDREW M on Feb 7, 2007 8:40:44 GMT -5
I have come into this thread late and it is a monumental task to catch up with it, so I only have a few general comments to make at this time.
Someone earlier appealed for "fairness" and I would encourage this all round and most especially in light of the offences the accused was charged with along with the court proceedings and result. This should give a background against which to judge the actions and reactions of all parties involved, whether they conducted themselves in an understandable, proper, wise, improper opr unwise manner. Most of you are level-headed enough to arrive at your own sensible conclusions and in my view there is sufficient information documented on this thread to facilitate this process.
Someone else suggested that "Bob" (presumably Bob connected with the Nevada case) should use some posts here as a proper way of presenting facts. His credibility has been slighted by his evasiveness and failure to do so.
As I was one of those who pressed Bob for more facts I feel it is my responsibility to state my opinion that Bob's "ommisions" do not necessarily strike at his credibility, but rather they merely make his account "unreliable." They do not make his account "untrue !" In other words they should be considered with a measure of caution, until the ommitted facts are established. Nothing more, nothing less. For those who wish to explore further into the NV matter, Bob's statement may well provide a good platform to launch from.
Kathy Lewis has identified "the system" as the main "wrong-doer." This is absolutely correct. Everyone of us had been lead to believe "the system" was the "perfect" way of God. A system that actually replaces Jesus.
Some of the major problems we are resding about have resulted in Workers and friends being subjected to the system rather that Christ. It is all about protecting the system rather than projecting Jesus.
Whatever your problems with the way, be they major issues or minor ones, please start of by being "fair" to yourself (and others) and make calculated conclusions on who or what is controlling processes and events. Is it the "system" or is it "Jesus."
I see more and more "protection of the system" as being the main "governing tool." Is the system now so powerful that all, including the head Workers are subject to it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2007 8:56:06 GMT -5
I think it is the heigth of 'unfairness' that folks unwilling to identify themselves and posting credability smears on him from the darkness, should demand that a named individual 'Bob' could be held responsible to post to the thread. Pasting the label "unreliable" on him must be regarded as a personal attack.
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Post by Simple Solution on Feb 7, 2007 9:22:37 GMT -5
I think it is the heigth of 'unfairness' that folks unwilling to identify themselves and posting credability smears on him from the darkness, should demand that a named individual 'Bob' could be held responsible to post to the thread. Pasting the label "unreliable" on him must be regarded as a personal attack. It did not start out as personal. His story was posted and people were very supportive of his views. but his story was that this was all over a couple of young kids caught necking and petting and how he was treated when he came to the defense of the young man - he stated he thought the man was perhaps 22. It then came to light that the young mas was 27 when he arrived on the scene and, given the Nevada laws regarding this type of behavior, the young woman seemingly would have been a young girl under the age of 16. Suddenly, it looked like this was no longer the case of a couple of kids necking and getting caught but an adult and an under aged adolescent girl who was 13 years his junior. It also came to light that the parents had asked that the young man be moved from their meeting and the parents of the girl's cousin has sent her 800 miles to get her away from what was happening. The girl's parents solution to this problem was to have the man arrested. According to Bob, this was a decision that was prompted and endorsed by the workers. Again, according to Bob, they attempted to get people to lie in order to make the charges stick. Given the circumstances, it seems that had the man not owned up to the crime he was charged with (he admitted he was indeed guilty) he could have gone to court and beat the charges. But it seems he was getting little support from anyone. The issue was that Bob had all the information. He stated he has seen the court documents. Yet he elected to post his tragic story without the crucial facts to paint the F&W church in the worst possible light - a group of fanatics rushing to get a young man convicted for necking - something we all could well be guilty of having done. I have no doubt that there was over reaction on both sides. I have no doubt that people were treated unfairly. But if you want to tell a story you need to tell all the facts. As a father - I am not sure what lengths I would have gone to had a 28 year old man been caught with my 15 year old daughter.
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Post by Scott Parish on Feb 7, 2007 10:08:58 GMT -5
My statements weren't meant to imply that raping children only happens among the F&W. The issue is not that sin exists. The issue is in how it is dealt with and who should be protected.
I don't claim to know all the facts either. I just know what I saw and experienced. Just the last situation of many which show that the protection of the little lambs was not the highest priority.
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Post by hoo boy on Feb 7, 2007 10:11:56 GMT -5
I think it is the heigth of 'unfairness' that folks unwilling to identify themselves and posting credability smears on him from the darkness, should demand that a named individual 'Bob' could be held responsible to post to the thread. Pasting the label "unreliable" on him must be regarded as a personal attack. Edgar, your history of negative posts about the 2x2's based on something "you heard" makes this post the height of hypocrisy. You are the king of smear.
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Post by Trust me on Feb 7, 2007 10:13:44 GMT -5
Edgar, I don't think this is quite fair.
The facts WERE laid on the table for both the workers AND friends within the Manitoba/Northern Ontario franchise area. Quite straightforwardly and quite openly. Because things were dealt with this openly, there was very little gossip about the situation. People were in possession of the facts - they didn't need to gossip, speculate and feed the rumor mill.
To my recollection, you would have been a fairly junior worker in the Saskatchewan franchise around this time. The facts were simply not laid on the table to YOU.
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Post by to Scott on Feb 7, 2007 10:26:52 GMT -5
Scott, thank you very much for relating your experience. There is much about your story that could and should be instructive for the church everywhere in dealing with these difficult matters. Matt18 should at least be where the 2x2 church gets started if they ever want to have a healthy functioning church. The measure of a healthy church is not how things are when everything is going smoothly, but how serious problems are dealt with and resolved with fairness and rightness.
Except for one clue, a reader of your story could conclude a worker leadership in CA that lacks moral integrity. The gridlock, the haughty "this is a worker problem to deal with", "get a life" attitudes are terrible at a leadership level. From the Nevada case, it would appear that HH demonstrated that he is incapable of handling difficult files and I suppose is the reason that DS in now in CA. Anyway, all the facts known so far speak to me of at least significant incompetence and pride in CA but not necessarily a clear lack of moral integrity.
You mentioned how that RM swore that his activities were long in the past. To me, this is the clue of the gridlock that you faced. I am guessing that the workers viewed RM as repentent in 2000 when he admitted to offences and was removed from the work.I have no doubt in speculating that RM gave the workers a big story on how this was all over and it wouldn't happen again. To them, the case was closed following a biblical pattern of repentence and forgiveness until you and a few others reopened it.
What a difficult situation everyone was in here. It turns out you and Sandy were right now in retrospect, but it would appear to me that no one knew for sure (I could be wrong here) that he was still in active molestation mode. You were given a clue by his unrepentent unremorseful attitude, but didn't know for sure.
I applaud your courage to have pressed the issue forward, most people would have caved in to the "this is the workers job" story,which is blatantly in error because something like this is the problem of the whole church.
I appears that the ministry removed RM upon his confession in 2000 which was the right thing to do. What we don't know is how many complaints they had heard prior to this. If they heard multiple unrelated complaints, it speaks volumes of moral corruption at the top of the CA church. Who, with any conscience, could keep a worker in his job when there are multiple complaints of pedophilia against him?
The meeting issue is a separate but related issue to RM's job in the ministry, and a little more difficult to deal with. Yet, anyone with any knowledge of known pedophiles would recognize that such people should never be allowed in the company of children, not even unattended lest they get an opportunity to steal their trust. If the ministry had any competence at all, they could have made some alternative arrangements for fellowship with RM which didn't involve children. Also, the "hide it from mom" plan was absolutely terrible, hiding truth by a twisted sense of compassion. When you have a confessed pedophile in your midst, everyone needs to know about it, including mom.
Thanks again for your story Scott. I hope some more folks come forward with regard to pre-2000 complaints to the workers about RM's activities. These workers, if there are any, need to be exposed and made accountable for their moral corruption.
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Post by re Syd Lee on Feb 7, 2007 10:47:22 GMT -5
The man that Edgar so passionately defends engaged in sexual intercourse with a 12 year old girl while he was a senior worker in Manitoba. One of his tricks was to explain to the girl how God gave him the duty to spread the seed, and that it was God's will for him to put his seed in her. This girl's life was literally ruined forever.
This was a horrific crime. As another poster puts it, it was handled openly and honestly such that there was absolutely no controversy in the Manitoba church over the matter. It's unfortunate that other areas couldn't see the wisdom in how this was handled and emulate it instead of always trying to keep things quiet out of pride of the ministry. There is no other explanation for such dysfunctional handling of things other than pride of the workers.
Just to put the subsequent story of Syd Lee straight, unlike what Edgar says that Syd Lee faithfully went to gospel meetings in Regina after that, it's not true at least to the mid '80's. For years after, he was effectively at no gospel meetings there, up to the mid '80's at least. He did try to get back into meetings on several occasions and the workers were amenable to the idea. However, Syd never showed one iota of remorse, responsibility or repentance and on that basis, the workers rightfully couldn't let him back in.
Both Lee and Mata showed a pattern similar to pedophiles. They never feel their actions are wrong so that explains why they are so capable of denying their actions and incapable of admitting wrong and feeling remorse. The fact that they have no sense of wrong in their actions is what makes them sick beasts.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2007 10:51:33 GMT -5
Edgar, I don't think this is quite fair. The facts WERE laid on the table for both the workers AND friends within the Manitoba/Northern Ontario franchise area. Quite straightforwardly and quite openly. Because things were dealt with this openly, there was very little gossip about the situation. People were in possession of the facts - they didn't need to gossip, speculate and feed the rumor mill. To my recollection, you would have been a fairly junior worker in the Saskatchewan franchise around this time. The facts were simply not laid on the table to YOU. It is true that I was a junior worker (had been in the work 6 years at the time) -- I spent several months at an extra Antler preparations at the time -- Antler was on the border between Saskatchewan and Manitoba so half the staff were Manitoba/N.Ontario workers. They didn't get any better an explanation than I did, and some of them had been Sids companions!!!! Just insinuations!! No specifics. Sid wasn't liked all that well by his companions (which leadership knew) and so most workers were happy enough to see him gone -- but that doesn't necesarily mean that the charges against him were true. This made him easy to 'push out' -- which I suspect was at least partly for political reasons. There were other workers in his age group obviously involved in similar activity as he was accused of, that went on to be senior workers!! Poor Stanley Lee was never the same after this disaster with his brother. One of my best friends in the work, Fred Rowley (sp?)(his brother is now on the Portage convention grounds I believe) was also a terrible causuallty of the period following - his distress turned into mental difficulties
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Post by Syd again on Feb 7, 2007 11:12:18 GMT -5
Syd Lee and Fred Roehle sat on my couch the year Syd was doing his deeds with _____. It was clear to me then that Fred was already a nervous wreck, not from subsequent fallout as Edgar suggests. And little wonder.
I always liked Syd's preaching. Lifeless, but some great history lessons from the OT! In retrospect, I understand now why he was incapable of preaching a gospel that brought sinners to repentence.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2007 11:19:25 GMT -5
The man that Edgar so passionately defends engaged in sexual intercourse with a 12 year old girl while he was a senior worker in Manitoba. One of his tricks was to explain to the girl how God gave him the duty to spread the seed, and that it was God's will for him to put his seed in her. This girl's life was literally ruined forever. This was a horrific crime. As another poster puts it, it was handled openly and honestly such that there was absolutely no controversy in the Manitoba church over the matter. It's unfortunate that other areas couldn't see the wisdom in how this was handled and emulate it instead of always trying to keep things quiet out of pride of the ministry. There is no other explanation for such dysfunctional handling of things other than pride of the workers. Just to put the subsequent story of Syd Lee straight, unlike what Edgar says that Syd Lee faithfully went to gospel meetings in Regina after that, it's not true at least to the mid '80's. For years after, he was effectively at no gospel meetings there, up to the mid '80's at least. He did try to get back into meetings on several occasions and the workers were amenable to the idea. However, Syd never showed one iota of remorse, responsibility or repentance and on that basis, the workers rightfully couldn't let him back in. Both Lee and Mata showed a pattern similar to pedophiles. They never feel their actions are wrong so that explains why they are so capable of denying their actions and incapable of admitting wrong and feeling remorse. The fact that they have no sense of wrong in their actions is what makes them sick beasts. Syd Lee was never the senior worker in Manitoba -- or anywhere else as far as I know.. If what you say is true about him, it is indeed terrible -- but I have never heard this in any other form than backhanded insinuation -- and I know that Syd denied wrong doing until he died. What I do know is that nothing ever was verified -- even for the people closest to him. ---- Why was it never reported to the police --- this was very illegal then, as it is now?? Why didn't you report it if you knew about it, at this early stage? (That same year I was involved in supporting a family of friends where the 12 year old daughter was molested by a doctor (non-proffessing)) -- He went to jail. By the way, I never suggested he went faithfully to gospel meetings until he died. He wasn't even made welcome at fellowship meetings in most of the instances I am aware of. A few of the friends were kind to him - and he was never involved in any kind of sexual crime (or obvious sexual activity at all ) in the 30 years or so he lived after.
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Post by las logged out on Feb 7, 2007 11:28:50 GMT -5
I heard from a elder that Sid Lee put a lot of money in his own pocket thats what he was guilty of the elder said nothing about sexual abuse
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Post by amazed on Feb 7, 2007 11:29:34 GMT -5
Edgar, I'm usually in the habit of backing you up, however I'm having a hard time with your line of reasoning with the Syd Lee case. You ask..."Why was it never reported to the police?". What does this have to do with guilt or innocence? You know very well that thousands of cases all over the world are not reported to the authorities. Does that make them untrue? There are many reasons cases go unreported, fear, embarrasment, a missplaced sense of guilt, etc. etc. I feel that every case should be prosecuted but we all know that we don't live in a perfect world.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2007 11:40:08 GMT -5
Edgar, I'm usually in the habit of backing you up, however I'm having a hard time with your line of reasoning with the Syd Lee case. You ask..."Why was it never reported to the police?". What does this have to do with guilt or innocence? You know very well that thousands of cases all over the world are not reported to the authorities. Does that make them untrue? There are many reasons cases go unreported, fear, embarrasment, a missplaced sense of guilt, etc. etc. I feel that every case should be prosecuted but we all know that we don't live in a perfect world. There is a legal and moral obligation to report people with the capacity to destroy other peoples lives. If the accusations were true he very clearly posed a clear risk to others --- Of course probably one of the major reasons why such things are not reported is lack of any kind of proof that the accusations are true. At this point especially I would never trust that workers (especially senior workers) could figure out genuine justice and truth. There are hundreds of examples of complete injustice in 2x2ism. Don't you believe that it is important to do what you can to protect children (even unproffessing ones) from sexual predators? If he was so dangerous, why was he simply sent to live in a city? Why did the tendency never turn up again?
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Post by amazed on Feb 7, 2007 12:59:17 GMT -5
I absolutely believe that we should do everything possible to protect our children. I'm not saying it's right that not every case isn't reported, I just don't understand how in one "breath" you put the F&W down for not doing enough and covering up, then you turn around and say that because he was sent away it somehow means he must be innocent? Many workers were sent away only to molest or abuse somewhere else. How do we know he never did anything again? Like I said, only a small percentage of abuse cases make it further than the abuser and the victim.
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Post by senior worker on Feb 7, 2007 13:01:53 GMT -5
Edgar, Syd was indeed "a senior worker", but never an overseer. He was senior in several ways. He had been in the work for decades, he had been the senior brother companion for years, and was probably in the ballpark of near 60 years old at the time. The inference here is that there should be no excuse like "youthful indiscretion" that could possibly have ever been attributed to him or mitigate his offences.
Obviously, I wasn't present at the crime scene but I can offer my small witness in support of the veracity of the matter. I knew the victim and her parents. The mother is still living today. These people are the least likely of anyone to ever lodge a complaint against anyone, especially a worker. That's just the kind of people they are/were. It is almost impossible that they would lay a false accusation against a worker.
The last time I met the victim was in 1989. I hadn't seen her for well over 10 years and she had married an old acquaintance of mine in the meantime. I'll never forget the encounter. The detached demeanor and vacuous look shocked me, like someone who had buried all emotion. Later, I came to understand the shutting down emotion is fairly typical of victims like this. I hope and pray she has gotten help and healing since then.
Of course Syd couldn't be convicted on my circumstantial witness, but what I saw with my own eyes makes the complaint perfectly believable to me. It all added up.
If this offense occurred in the 1990's, I would say that it would be perfectly right for you to rag on the workers and friends for not strongly recommending that the victim go to the authorities. However, under the circumstances of the era they lived in, the whole issue was handled as well as could be expected.
According to Lloyd on this site, he was aware of Syd holding cash given to him from an estate, but was unaware of Syd's molestation. This was wrong of the SK workers, of whom you were a member, to cover this up. Syd was a potential threat and had he made inroads with some sympathetic compassionate friends in SK, he may have ruined more lives.
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Post by Trust me on Feb 7, 2007 13:07:17 GMT -5
Regarding reporting Syd Lee to the authorities, I think "fair trial" already addressed this quite capably in this thread:
I think it was unfortunate that this matter was not dealt with as openly in Saskatchewan as it was in Manitoba and I was sometimes puzzled why it was not. As we can see, this would have saved a great deal of speculation on the part of ones like Edgar who did have a little knowledge of the situation.
As previously stated, Syd Lee was "a" senior worker in MB; he never was head worker. Stanley Lee, Syd's brother, was head worker when this matter came to light. It broke Stanley's heart, his spirit, and even compromised his mental state, to think that his own brother could have done the things he did.
I was the one who stated that Syd 'faithfully' (note the quotes) attended gospel meeting in Regina until he died. I stand corrected, as I have no personal knowledge of 20 of those 30 or so years. However, from around the mid-80's until the mid-90's I believe he was in the back row of pretty much every gospel meeting I attended in Regina. For the decade before that, or the decade after, I do not know. To my knowledge, he never attended any fellowhip meetings after this came to light, though I do know he wanted to.
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Post by verification on Feb 7, 2007 13:25:20 GMT -5
"I was the one who stated that Syd 'faithfully' (note the quotes) attended gospel meeting in Regina until he died. I stand corrected, as I have no personal knowledge of 20 of those 30 or so years. However, from around the mid-80's until the mid-90's I believe he was in the back row of pretty much every gospel meeting I attended in Regina. For the decade before that, or the decade after, I do not know. To my knowledge, he never attended any fellowhip meetings after this came to light, though I do know he wanted to."
Thanks "Trust me", I apologize to Edgar for attributing that information to him. I was personally in Regina until almost the mid 80's and can attest to his non-attendance at that time, although he may have showed on occasion and I didn't see him. I saw him from a distance on the street on one or two occasions. After that, I lost track of him until now. I hadn't heard reports of his death but had assumed it to be the case because of the years involved now.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2007 15:12:11 GMT -5
One of the few friends that continued to show kindness to Sid throughout his life was herself a mother of 8 or 9 kids -- many of them girls. She and her husband (gone now) were a marginalized family in the group, but I always appreciated her highly for her interest and respect for the underdog. I doubt if she would have subjected her family to anything that she regarded as a risk --- and I have never heard of anyone else being able to suggest any improprieties in Sids conduct the last 30+ years of his life -- and absolutely none before this while he was in the work --- except for this one senior worker alleged charge against him, that was never openly substantiated -- even to the other Manitoba workers that I knew well.
Like I have said -- my experience has taught me that vague and unverified condemnation by senior workers cannot be trusted as accurate -- political agendas are far to common. I was never Sids friend -- didn't even know him all that well -- I know he was grumpy and hard to get along with -- a fire and brimstone preacher -- I will admit I never really liked him as a person. But he should have the same right to truth and justice as any of the rest of us.
Anyone condemned on what they regard as unjust cause for the rest of their lives is likely to be somewhat grumpy!!
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Post by justice on Feb 7, 2007 15:38:29 GMT -5
One of the few friends that continued to show kindness to Sid throughout his life was herself a mother of 8 or 9 kids -- many of them girls. She and her husband (gone now) were a marginalized family in the group, but I always appreciated her highly for her interest and respect for the underdog. I doubt if she would have subjected her family to anything that she regarded as a risk --- and I have never heard of anyone else being able to suggest any improprieties in Sids conduct the last 30+ years of his life -- and absolutely none before this while he was in the work --- except for this one senior worker alleged charge against him, that was never openly substantiated -- even to the other Manitoba workers that I knew well. Like I have said -- my experience has taught me that vague and unverified condemnation by senior workers cannot be trusted as accurate -- political agendas are far to common. I was never Sids friend -- didn't even know him all that well -- I know he was grumpy and hard to get along with -- a fire and brimstone preacher -- I will admit I never really liked him as a person. But he should have the same right to truth and justice as any of the rest of us. Anyone condemned on what they regard as unjust cause for the rest of their lives is likely to be somewhat grumpy!! You are right Edgar, everyone deserves truth and justice. In this case, justice was set aside in favor of mercy. Neither Syd nor the victim got what they deserved. Had Syd been tried in CA today, he might have gotten what Mata did, a far worse conclusion being incarcerated basically the rest of his life. I can't figure out what kept Syd hanging around the meetings for all those years, pride and arrogance perhaps. Or, maybe he never stopped believing in his own exclusivist preaching.....
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Post by original point on Feb 7, 2007 15:49:19 GMT -5
So I see that this thread has gone all over the place. But I don't see where anyone ever presented any evidence that the original assertion by Edgar (that California workers forbid the friends to report their suspicions about a worker to law enforcement).
So was this just another one of Edgar's baseless accusations?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2007 15:59:12 GMT -5
I can see that you like most other 2x2 supporters have decided to express your disrespect for Sids entire life -- and all the kings horses and all the kings men won't change that. I
If the stories about him, that I have heard about him first now on this thread are true -I am horrified - and it was definately a criminal offence not to have reported the information to authorites even at that time. Negligence in doing this could have endangered many lives -- but as I understand it .. Sid lived a quiet and uneventful life for the next 30 years -- unmarried, and apart from a few nasties from the friends and workers, he lived at relative peace with the folks arround him. He had a small handful of friends that cared for him -- and he did stand up for what he believed, inspite of the open contempt from many of the people he trusted for the first 55 years of his life. This 30 years is hard to be regarded as otherwise than admirable --
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Post by Grateful on Feb 7, 2007 16:22:14 GMT -5
I can see that you like most other 2x2 supporters have decided to express your disrespect for Sids entire life -- and all the kings horses and all the kings men won't change that. I If the stories about him, that I have heard about him first now on this thread are true -I am horrified - and it was definately a criminal offence not to have reported the information to authorites even at that time. Negligence in doing this could have endangered many lives -- but as I understand it .. Sid lived a quiet and uneventful life for the next 30 years -- unmarried, and apart from a few nasties from the friends and workers, he lived at relative peace with the folks arround him. He had a small handful of friends that cared for him -- and he did stand up for what he believed, inspite of the open contempt from many of the people he trusted for the first 55 years of his life. This 30 years is hard to be regarded as otherwise than admirable -- I'm sure Syd was grateful for the last 30 years of his life and the way it went. It should have been spent behind bars. His victim is probably still emotionally imprisoned. The 2x2s were utter fools for not taking him to the authorities.
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Post by merciful on Feb 7, 2007 16:25:55 GMT -5
"I'm sure Syd was grateful for the last 30 years of his life and the way it went. It should have been spent behind bars. His victim is probably still emotionally imprisoned. The 2x2s were utter fools for not taking him to the authorities. "
Darn those merciful 2x2s!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2007 16:49:19 GMT -5
"I'm sure Syd was grateful for the last 30 years of his life and the way it went. It should have been spent behind bars. His victim is probably still emotionally imprisoned. The 2x2s were utter fools for not taking him to the authorities. " Darn those merciful 2x2s! Even if leadership charges were true, it wasn't because of mercy, and it wasn't because they were fools that they didn't take it to the authorities. Besides it being a criminal offence to ignore the welfare of others by concealing the offender from due legal course -- it was likely done to serve the percieved bests interests of their organizational hierarchy. I am still not convinced that there was more to it than a sure fire way to move the political chips in favor of the other three vying for top positions in this transition period of 2x2 history on the Canadian prairies. Frank Tomas was also accused of sexual impropriety in this ugly internal political campaign -- and was eventually moved to the east. The eventual winner -- can you guess? -- Willis Propp!! First in Saskatchewan - then to Alberta(where the money is).
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Post by original point on Feb 7, 2007 17:00:36 GMT -5
I can see that you like most other 2x2 supporters have decided to express your disrespect for Sids entire life -- and all the kings horses and all the kings men won't change that. I If the stories about him, that I have heard about him first now on this thread are true I have no disrespect for Sid's life. Because I've never even heard of the guy before. And now all I've heard is a bunch of people's accounts. I don't base anything on what I hear second-hand. It's all unsubstantiated crap. Kind of like saying that California workers forbid the friends from going to the authorities about a worker.
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Post by crap on Feb 7, 2007 17:10:12 GMT -5
"I don't base anything on what I hear second-hand. It's all unsubstantiated crap. Kind of like saying that California workers forbid the friends from going to the authorities about a worker. "
Or it's like saying Syd Lee and Frank Thomas were framed because of politics orchestrated by Willis Propp!! What crap alright.
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