Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2007 7:23:49 GMT -5
California 2x2 leadership forbid friends to report their suspisions about a worker to law enforcement, but it seems that when the case was finally brougth to court recently, things proved much much much more serious than even the most critical folks could imagine. The sentence indicates that it wasn't just a few isolated misses in social wisdom!!!
This issue, involving a worker, was being actively hidden by senior workers, at the same time as this other case (discussed recently on this list) of unjust and unproven accusation, was being persued by workers against a lower ranking fellow that for some reason they wanted to be publicly condemned.
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Post by IOWA BOY on Feb 6, 2007 7:54:49 GMT -5
California 2x2 leadership forbid friends to report their suspisions about a worker to law enforcement, but it seems that when the case was finally brougth to court recently, things proved much much much more serious than even the most critical folks could imagine. The sentence indicates that it wasn't just a few isolated misses in social wisdom!!! This issue, involving a worker, was being actively hidden by senior workers, at the same time as this other case (discussed recently on this list) of unjust and unproven accusation, was being persued by workers against a lower ranking fellow that for some reason they wanted to be publicly condemned. EDGAR- THANKS FOR POSTING THIS. WHAT THOUGHTS MUST ONE FEEL IN THEIR BOND WITH GOD TO PURPOSELY COVER UP SUCH AN AWFUL AND SICK ACT TO HAPPEN? WHERE ARE THEIR HUMANLY INSTINCTS? IS THE BOND BETWEEN THE WORKERS SO SYRONG THAT THEY FEEL ABOVE THE LAWS THAT GOVERN OUR NATION? IF THIS IN FACT HAPPENED, THEN THE LAW NEEDS TO STEP IN AND DISBAND THIS RELIGOUS SECT FROM ANY AND ALL FURTHER MEETINGS, ECT.. THIS IS NO DOFFERENT THEN A HUMAN SACRIFICE PRACTICED AMONGEST MOST CULT GROUPS. COME ON PEOPLE. SPEAK OUT AND LET'S CLOSE THE DOOR ON THIS CULT FOR GOOD AND LET THEM BE ACCOUNTABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS. THATS THE SAME AS IF THEY COMMITED THE CRIME THEMSELVES. JIM
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Jilly
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Post by Jilly on Feb 6, 2007 8:00:06 GMT -5
California 2x2 leadership forbid friends to report their suspisions about a worker to law enforcement, but it seems that when the case was finally brougth to court recently, things proved much much much more serious than even the most critical folks could imagine. The sentence indicates that it wasn't just a few isolated misses in social wisdom!!! This issue, involving a worker, was being actively hidden by senior workers, at the same time as this other case (discussed recently on this list) of unjust and unproven accusation, was being persued by workers against a lower ranking fellow that for some reason they wanted to be publicly condemned. I hope there are facts to back up these accusations.
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Post by gregleepluggedin on Feb 6, 2007 8:11:58 GMT -5
I hope there are facts to back up these accusations. I did a Yahoo search of "california 36 year jail sentence for child molesting" and the first 50 entries gave no articles for those words. Quite a few "36 year old"s and "36%"s, but no sentence to anyone for 36 years.
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Post by More Details on Feb 6, 2007 8:39:03 GMT -5
More details please. Name, case links etc etc. Why? As with any case like this one should no the facts. Perhaps some have had their little ones damaged by this person and don't know it yet. Perhaps this persons counterpart also has been involved. What is the extent of this and who did the coverups vs the sick the dogs on um. ;D
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star
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Post by star on Feb 6, 2007 8:56:14 GMT -5
California 2x2 leadership forbid friends to report their suspisions about a worker to law enforcement, but it seems that when the case was finally brougth to court recently, things proved much much much more serious than even the most critical folks could imagine. The sentence indicates that it wasn't just a few isolated misses in social wisdom!!! This issue, involving a worker, was being actively hidden by senior workers, at the same time as this other case (discussed recently on this list) of unjust and unproven accusation, was being persued by workers against a lower ranking fellow that for some reason they wanted to be publicly condemned. There are a couple of items in this report that raise questions If the workers actively prevented people from reporting a crime they could, and should, have to shoulder some of the responsibility for acts that the criminal may have committed. If they actively tried to conceal the crime while it was being investigated the charges against them may well be criminal. As in the Nevada case, the charges posted are vague and many of the facts are missing. In this case it can be seen that the workers are being blamed for covering up for the person charged. Bob did much the same by posting his version of the story in Nevada to make the F&W look like they had overreacted. I am sure, in both cases, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. As in the Nevada case it seems like as long as the case is, for lack of a better word, "anti-worker/2x2", the requirements for accuracy are much lower than, as was the case for the material Bob posted in the Nevada case, the requirements for facts if the case is "anti-ex-2x2". As a former 2x2 and someone who holds no grudge against the group, I think fair treatment on both sides would be nice.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2007 9:43:33 GMT -5
Do a google on Ruben Mata + child molest. It isn't so long since the trial -- so there isn't a lot of information. But except for the folks immersed in the "deny everything negative about the 2x2s" the basic facts are rather hard to deny. He left the work in the early 2000s -- but apparently prosecution investigated 20 year old allegations -- and by the harshness of the sentencing, they apparently found lots of evidence.
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Post by ANDREW M on Feb 6, 2007 9:51:59 GMT -5
You are so right about "fairness" Star. This should be borne in mind by everybody and applied all round. It is a great foundation for credibility, both in respect of the presenter and the facts presented.
If we do not apply fairness, at best we are biased.
In my view, the Christian spirit takes "fairness" to great levels. However, it should never become "Orwellian" in that some are "more fair than others." It is about "even-handedness !"
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Post by more help on Feb 6, 2007 9:54:58 GMT -5
Do a google on Ruben Mata + child molest. It isn't so long since the trial -- so there isn't a lot of information. But except for the folks immersed in the "deny everything negative about the 2x2s" the basic facts are rather hard to deny. He left the work in the early 2000s -- but apparently prosecution investigated 20 year old allegations -- and by the harshness of the sentencing, they apparently found lots of evidence. I did the search you indicated and found nothing except to two discussion boards that no longer exist. Can you provide an URL of a website that actually has some info on it?
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Post by allegation on Feb 6, 2007 10:26:12 GMT -5
Mr Massey says:
"This issue, involving a worker, was being actively hidden by senior workers,"
Mr Massey, this is a serious allegation that you are making. You are alleging criminal behavior without substantiation.
Please provide proof of this vile allegation or admit to libel.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2007 10:31:54 GMT -5
I was informed of this tragedy personally, by a friend that was quite directly involved -not from the net. However I have found two sites with information directly relating to it, as well as a number about the person when he was in the work -- If you can't find them then you aren't looking very hard.
Like I have said before --- Documenting evidence is not my aim --- (this has been done by others who are professionally involved with such). I am rather disillusioned as to the interest that anyone within the 2x2 group has, as to knowing the truth in such matters. They would rather deny it, as they are afraid of the promise in Christ that says that you "will know the truth, and the truth will set you free" . Freedom is a scary thing for folks who learned to depend on bondage. This means that denial becomes far more important than knowing the truth!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2007 10:39:20 GMT -5
I am afraid, that Edgar in his isolation, festers and as usual overstates the case. No justification for molesters, at all.. Hang em. But why blanket and smear a group that one bears a grudge against. Edgar, you seem to be reaching for this one. Are you questioning the substance of my post -- Or are you just trying to discredit me? If it is the later, I am getting used to it!!!
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Post by mhsuw on Feb 6, 2007 10:47:49 GMT -5
I am afraid, that Edgar in his isolation, festers and as usual overstates the case. No justification for molesters, at all.. Hang em. But why blanket and smear a group that one bears a grudge against. Edgar, you seem to be reaching for this one. Now we need to see a slew of posts admonishing this quoted poster to be fair. It is not right to put allegations without documentation. Post away folks. Be fair. Stand up for Edgar as you do for others. You bash Bob, and you stand up for the rights of a convicted molester.
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Post by slippery on Feb 6, 2007 11:00:13 GMT -5
I was informed of this tragedy personally, by a friend that was quite directly involved -not from the net. However I have found two sites with information directly relating to it, as well as a number about the person when he was in the work -- If you can't find them then you aren't looking very hard. Like I have said before --- Documenting evidence is not my aim --- (this has been done by others who are professionally involved with such). I am rather disillusioned as to the interest that anyone within the 2x2 group has, as to knowing the truth in such matters. They would rather deny it, as they are afraid of the promise in Christ that says that you "will know the truth, and the truth will set you free" . Freedom is a scary thing for folks who learned to depend on bondage. This means that denial becomes far more important than knowing the truth!!! Edgar, you take great pleasure in railing on 2x2s about lies and coverups, but according to the slippery answer above, you are no different. Tell the truth Edgar, and stop your own coverup. You say the senior workers covered up, but totally fail to provide anything close to proof, let alone evidence. 2x2 friends do want to know the truth unlike you state. Now tell the truth or stop the lies please!
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Post by more help on Feb 6, 2007 11:02:46 GMT -5
I was informed of this tragedy personally, by a friend that was quite directly involved -not from the net. However I have found two sites with information directly relating to it, as well as a number about the person when he was in the work -- If you can't find them then you aren't looking very hard. What do you mean I am not looking very hard? I did the Google search exactly as you recommended and came up empty. Just post the URL's that you have found and we can go directly to the websites where the info is listed.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2007 11:08:36 GMT -5
One of the reasons that child molesters develop is that, folks refuse to give the victims the benifit of the doubt, in 2x2 circles this is ALWAYS reserved for the offender (especially if it is a worker) The nature of sex offence is that it is nearly always done in absence of a witness -- Demanding hard evidence on the table as a prerequisit to action, is in reality active support for the crime.
This court case is proof of this fact -- and I believe this principle would make senior workers co-responsible what happened to a large number of young girls and boys.
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Post by ex-teenager on Feb 6, 2007 11:09:02 GMT -5
I was informed of this tragedy personally, by a friend that was quite directly involved -not from the net. However I have found two sites with information directly relating to it, as well as a number about the person when he was in the work -- If you can't find them then you aren't looking very hard. What do you mean I am not looking very hard? I did the Google search exactly as you recommended and came up empty. Just post the URL's that you have found and we can go directly to the websites where the info is listed. I did the same, nothng only one that takes me back to this board, another that brought about a virus and pornography. Maybe the spelling is wrong, I don't know.
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Post by more info on Feb 6, 2007 11:16:12 GMT -5
This court case is proof of this fact -- and I believe this principle would make senior workers co-responsible what happened to a large number of young girls and boys. You're talking about "proof" and I'm still trying to find where I can read about it a little bit. Could you at least provide a website where we can see what you are talking about?
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Post by information on Feb 6, 2007 11:16:27 GMT -5
There is a little on a blog about this: jh1946.blogspot.com/search?q=RubenAlso, read the thread on this board headed "Question". There was a poster there who claimed to be a jurist who sounds credible and provides some information.
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Post by accountable on Feb 6, 2007 11:19:48 GMT -5
Workers should be held accountable for covering up child molestation and harboring criminals. Edgar should be held accountable for making baseless allegations of criminal behavior.
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Post by coming clean on Feb 6, 2007 11:26:02 GMT -5
By not coming clean about his accusation of criminal behavior of the senior workers, Edgar is covering up for them. He's no different than them.
Who are you protecting Edgar? Do you have a worker friend you don't want to get into trouble? Or do they have some dirt on you?
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Post by evidence please on Feb 6, 2007 11:37:20 GMT -5
California 2x2 leadership forbid friends to report their suspisions about a worker to law enforcement Edgar, can you please let us know what makes you think this? I grew up in a 2x2 home and never heard of any correlation between 2x2 religion and the justice system. I know that my mom would have gone to the authorities in a heartbeat if she thought anyone (including a worker) had abused us.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2007 11:49:35 GMT -5
California 2x2 leadership forbid friends to report their suspisions about a worker to law enforcement Edgar, can you please let us know what makes you think this? I grew up in a 2x2 home and never heard of any correlation between 2x2 religion and the justice system. I know that my mom would have gone to the authorities in a heartbeat if she thought anyone (including a worker) had abused us. According to my friend, there was a considerable, and quite open request by the workers to a large number of the friends to keep the issue quiet. This was of course a good number of years ago - long before the police got on the trail. My friend was apparently one of the first people that did go to the police with the issue - this earned him a large number of minus points in the 2x2 status measurement system. I believe him, as I know what happened to me when I insisted on open answers to my concerns. Edgar I believe you as to your mothers will to do anything if she suspected any of her children were being molested. My mother was that way to -- I remember her becoming extremely upset with a workers behavior with my sisters one time. He was consequently moved to eastern Canada -- Poor folks there!!!
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Post by evidence please on Feb 6, 2007 12:01:59 GMT -5
I believe that there have been cases of abuse in the 2x2 religion. Unfortunately, any large group is going to have a few bad apples and the 2x2's are no exception.
I just never saw any evidence in the 2x2's of this systemic "sweeping under the rug" as you call it. My experience with the 2x2's was that there was no place for workers who were bad examples. In fact, I saw extreme scrutiny and workers were almost expected to be perfect or they were pressured to get out.
Thanks for the info.
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Post by out of interest on Feb 6, 2007 12:02:43 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 6, 2007 12:04:02 GMT -5
I believe that there have been cases of abuse in the 2x2 religion. Unfortunately, any large group is going to have a few bad apples and the 2x2's are no exception. I just never saw any evidence in the 2x2's of this systemic "sweeping under the rug" as you call it. My experience with the 2x2's was that there was no place for workers who were bad examples. In fact, I saw extreme scrutiny and workers were almost expected to be perfect or they were pressured to get out. Thanks for the info. The workers involvment is similar to the Alberta conviction of an elder for child pornography. The fellows brother and family where excommunicated a few years earlier for suggesting this tendency in the poor man. The workers then supported the offender blind (and helped to cover his tracks), until he was arrested (workers were living in the home) when the police came.
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Post by which workers on Feb 6, 2007 12:04:33 GMT -5
Edgar, which workers allegedly openly requested that Mata's criminal conduct be kept quiet? This needs to be addressed openly too.
If you post the names of those whom your friend accuses, it may encourage someone to come forward. This cannot go on any longer, children's lives are at stake at this very moment.
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Post by amazed ul on Feb 6, 2007 12:04:48 GMT -5
These threads made me remember that as a very young child there was a brother worker who absolutely gave me the creeps. I was probably between the ages of 7 and 10 when he was around and I remember just recoiling when he would hug us. He was the only brother worker or any worker for that matter that would hug us. Seems odd looking back but I wonder if as a child we sometimes have an intuition about others. I hope so because I have nightmares about my own child being molested.
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