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Post by quizzer on Aug 11, 2011 23:28:57 GMT -5
wow! awful eh! What is going to happen if you don't unprofess, get full TLC membership and find your liberty before your day comes? Will the same dire end await you? Why not 'throw you soul into the conflict', dare to be a Daniel, Be a Moses, gather an entourage and with a shout lead them out of the land of the 2x2 systemic bondage in TPL (TLC div) noels The problem is that Christ is an unknown Savior within the 2x2s, noels, even to the most senior of workers. I do find it comforting that God doesn't forget them, even in their last moments. |
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Post by lazarus66 on Aug 11, 2011 23:29:22 GMT -5
Noels, thank you for responding to what I posted. Please do not think I am picking a fight.
You would have to agree that it is easier for some to live within the "truth" as they have not had some experiences that places them in a "difficult" area.
I feel like those that go to meetings, and live like the bible teaches are fine.
I think that too many people have the wrong idea about TLC. There are all different types of beliefs there, from no belief in God to being very involved in Christianity, even though it is not meetings.
I can not speak for everyone there, but I know some that would like to see their families leave the fellowship, and they have their reasons. I also know of some that accept those in meetings as they would any other God fearing people. I do know that more people from TLC would accept the F&W's much quicker and on a greater number than the F&W's wold accept them as fellow Christians.
I will state openly that if the F&W's think that the meetings are the "only way, the truth, and God's chosen family" then they are sadly mistaken.
That is a judgement that can not be made by anyone inside or out. God is the one and only judge, and when anyone presumes to belong to the "One and only way", they have judged everyone else as lost, and just as it is wrong for me to judge those in the F&W's way, it is wrong for those of the F&W's way to brand another PERSON as being deceived and living in false contentment.
I look at the F&W's way as another church that people can be Christians in, and be content and live fruitful lives just as others can live Christian lives without the F&W's way.
So much is made about William Irvine, but he was just a man that along with John Long and others decided to create another way for people to follow Jesus. They started with great ideas, but then as they were ousted, and the Jack Carol's came in, then the "unwritten rules" began, and that destroyed the ideal.
There have been many different "fads" in the fellowship, such as the "black stocking" idea and many others that would only start a new debate here which is not my intent.
Personally, I was treated very badly in the F&W's fellowship by the majority of those that I dealt with, and because of my profession as a musician, and having had a daughter out of wedlock, that I took responsibility for and raised alone, I was a problem, and was constantly being "chided" by the workers. Nothing I did ever measured up. When I returned in 2001, I came back with the attitude that I would only let God lead me. I was in a great place, and we had wonderful workers that preached Jesus, preached that they weren't important but the message was and we, as Professing people were to read and make sure they were preaching truth. One has left the fellowship entirely and the other is still in the work as far as I know now. When the overseer came in, he put a stop to these men preaching what they were, and put himself in some pretty questionable situations, with divorced women. Yeah, not all are perfect, but when you are an overseer, and you have such a great responsibility, to be an example, and don't make the necessary efforts, who is going to question you or remove you? No one!
When I approached him with an elder that was being dishonest with me, he turned it back onto me, and found all the fault with my life he could while not even addressing the other "professing man's" lying to me, and defrauding me. I know this is not scriptural, and know that Matthew 18:15-17 are very specific when having a dispute with another "brother". I tried to have this followed in 3 different states, by over 5 different workers, and they refused to be involved in my request. The overseer I am referring to was one of them.
The people on TLC are very much like other groups. Many don't agree on somethings, but the respect for others there is amazing. Also, many felt like they were in a cult, and I felt that I was brainwashed too. I dealt with this group for over 58 years, and know that it has cult like aspects to it.
Again let me make this perfectly clear. I am referring to the belief system, created by early workers. Not all may be brainwashed like I was, but I was taught this was from the shores of Galilee, and now know it started in Ireland in 1897. I was lead to believe that all that were not of this way were condemned to a lost eternity and all other churches were false.
With the power of the internet and information so easily obtained, I was freed from this thinking and the abuse I received at the hands of the majority of the F&W's that I dealt with.
I accept those that live within the F&W's way, as long as they don't condemn me, and accept me as I am, I think it is great if they can live within the fellowship. There are some areas where the F&W's are great, and live like they should. These places, I have found are few and far between.
This is my experience, and can not be denied. I have posted specifics and don't want to start that discussion, but would be glad to share with you, in another forum such as email or PM.
My job, that put a roof over my daughter's head and mine was not approved of by the F&W's and I felt such guilt, until I realized that it was my job, and Jesus told the soldiers to be content with their wages, not find a new job.
When I got to the place where I couldn't honestly invite people to meetings, because of my treatment, I got real, and then I got out.
I am angry that I had to endure what I did, and don't blame everyone in the fellowship, but can name a bunch of workers that are phoney as can be, and only care about what people think of them. Many are "higher ups" and some are overseers.
I don't know every worker and am not judging anyone but am judging actions and discerning spirits. That is what we all are to do. I have great admiration and respect for some, and disdain for others. That is my choice and decision. I choose not to have things in my life that are not good for me, and toxic people are everywhere. Good people are everywhere too.
Those that I judge as phoney and hypocrites, are my choices, and I don't ask people to agree with me. Can I judge these people? No, can I judge their actions and credibility? YES.
Don't judge the TLC people until you know them, and then you need to keep your judgement to yourself, unless they pose a threat to others.
Sorry to be so long, but I have covered all this before, and this really is brief....Dale
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Post by lazarus66 on Aug 11, 2011 23:42:08 GMT -5
This is a quote from ronhall's quote in Nathan's post. "Not that I am about to grow a pony tail and my wife get a crew cut -- we know such behavior would alienate us from the fellowship."
Isn't there something wrong with this picture?
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Post by emy on Aug 12, 2011 0:22:16 GMT -5
Quite true Emy - both sides are guilty of this - right? Do YOU want to build bridges? If so, then I would encourage you to converse with others outside of the forum (who have left). Listen with an open heart and open mind. Some listen with an open mind but a closed heart. And I'm not referring to ONLY those who choose to stay in the fellowship but everyone on the forum. To do otherwise displays pride and arrogance. There really are two sides on this forum. The individuals who choose to go to meeting and those who do not! Simply put! And each side desperately presents all the facts and stories of their experience to justify why they have made the choices they've made. I'm right in there with everyone else doing the same thing...over and over and over! WHY does it matter really? The last comment I made before leaving the meetings was .."we get so caught up in talking about the fellowship and justifying what we do - that Jesus is completely left out of the picture as if He doesn't matter at all. HE is the one I seek to serve. I'm tired of this and I won't be back to meetings."...or something to that effect. Obviously I'm too old to remember the exact words. MY experienced is based solely on what has happened in my life the past 50+ years. Emy, your experience molds your decisions, Noels, your experiences determine your choices, Jesse, Nathan .....(don't mean to miss anyone because I value the input of everyone on the forum) - same applies. And once again WHAT REALLY MATTERS? Shouldn't we really consider what matters and as Emy said...start mending/building some bridges!? I did see a comment (cannot remember who said it) that they had no intention of building bridges and it made me sad. Perhaps a better way to put it (instead of building bridges) is maintaining positive relationships?? See this post: professing.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=general&thread=18007&post=418994and this one: professing.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=gotopost&board=general&thread=18007&post=418917As well as my private correspondence with you up until you were occupied with a wedding. |
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Post by JO on Aug 12, 2011 0:26:38 GMT -5
With you feeling such I honestly struggle to see why 'bother' with the fellowship any longer? Please don't understand that to mean I am encouraging you to leave' for I am not. But if it has systemic problems that are unacceptable to you and because of this you have no joy or satisfaction in the fellowship?  Is it that you see and JO consider yourself the catalysts for change? The 'Lech Walesa's' of the coming change and revolution? I know God will bring change where he sees it necessary. With 'way' you and JO 'come across' in your posts I simply am not able to understand how God would use such minded people? That is of course only my personal view and perception and I apologize if this frank post is offensive to you and JO noels At least QUIZZER and FRED are getting a repreave while CD and JO are getting a hard time! That's really nice of you to apologise for any offense from your frank post, but I've developed a tough hide through experiences so don't be concerned. You raise a good question NOELS: why do people who see the need for change "bother" with the fellowship? I really can't tell you for sure. Perhaps we're hoping and praying that our brethren will come to realise that all is not well in "God's perfect way" and let God use them to fix it? Perhaps we care about our brethren and want to support them? Perhaps we care about friends and family who would think we are going to hell if we left? Perhaps we don't feel that God is calling us out? There might be many reasons that we don't even understand ourselves. The reality is that most people who see the systemic problems eventually leave. And the more "disturbed ones" leave, the more vindicated and special the exclusive folks feel. I think most of us who "hang in" have a "cup half full" attitude, hoping that things will get better. NOELS, do you struggle to see why the faithful of the seven churches in Asia "bothered" with the fellowship? As far as being a "Lech Walesa" of the coming change: I'd prefer to keep well out of the way and let naughty worker NOELS lead the charge. |
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Post by pinky on Aug 12, 2011 6:28:01 GMT -5
My guess why some would 'bother' remaining in the fellowship if they are unhappy/ questioning/ disturbed would be to try to effect change from within.
I dare say many exes had such thoughts before moving on. I know I did, and others I know also.
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Post by greatfull2010 on Aug 12, 2011 6:44:28 GMT -5
I think you are right there pinky
For me, I didnt believe that I could effect change and the risk of alienation is high. I liken it to North Korea. there is a party line to follow and you really dont know who is a rebel or who is a spy. Who do you trust if you speak about certain things?
Just to be clear Nth Korea is not a good comparison as to how people are treated but is a good comp in relation to the who is a party faithfull or not?
There are alienated people still in the 2x2's who are classed as trouble makers. They have something that I dont have that enables them to continue to fight for what they believe.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2011 6:57:50 GMT -5
The common denominator of all regular TLC members is that every member has rejected the meeting system...and they no longer are members. They have made the break - divorced themselves, burned their bridges and left the system behind. Some professed; some were B&R and never professed. Most all agree that no F&W can truly understand the effects that making this break has on someone--unless they make the break themselves. Does being divorced, burning their bridges and left the system behind include ceasing to meddle in the affairs of the F&W fellowship? Just asking. |
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 12, 2011 9:06:43 GMT -5
I doubt that you will find very many exes on this board who believe you're crazy for attending meetings. In fact I'd say they think you're OK for doing so. They simply want the walls torn down that divide the "innies" and "outies" (who started these terms?  ) as a result of a mindset that tends to exclude all who do not embrace and follow the 2x2 structure from the ONE TRUE CHURCH of Jesus. I wonder about this, any reader can see what redback said, read many atrocity stories here on TMB. If that's done in good faith and love, well, I find that hard to believe. Then what's worse is if any dare to point out atrocity story it's rending a precious pearl. Look at the posts advocating bridge building, and note that mixed in with them is Cherie using words like burnt bridges, divorced, bad dream, reject, etc. bridge building "of they type being discussed here" never was and is not her goal. She actually thanked redback for reply 121. How do you reconcile that sherbear? Surely you see how that kind of attitude, and influence, gives license to atrocity story telling? I think you do; "Atrocity story" in the research is not telling a simple objective story about a factual atrocity, it is a story with a few facts blown up with lots of opinion into something so out of whack the telling of the story almost becomes an atrocity, or extremist like Clearday said. Jesse - I'll have to agree with you on this one. I've heard a lot of accounts that become like these "fish stories". They do tend to grow every time you tell them. Right?   The influence is subtle enough that many influenced don't seem to know - or care - what they are saying in the atrocity stories they tell. Thus they cannot understand why and how anyone can have an honest, and rational protest when the atrocity stories are told. The really sad thing is they are hurting themselves way more than the objects of their atrocity stories, it looks as if they don't know what they're doing. In my opinion this is one of the bedrock roadblocks for bridge building with lots of examples here on TMB. Just because this problem and the roots feeding it don't show in the exclusive atmosphere at TLC doesn't mean they aren't there - they are - again there's plenty of evidence of it when TLCers come to TMB - right here in this thread. Cherie said "the admin rules" at TLC, maybe that why atrocity stories don't show up over there, but he doesn't rule TLC members here - maybe that's why atrocity stories show up here. And of course that's what makes the TLC peace rule so interesting. I have to wonder if there is a deliberate effort on the part of some to disturb the peace here at TMB. I remember something my dad said, "either things happen by accident, or they are planned that way." Hmmmm....  |
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 12, 2011 9:20:43 GMT -5
My guess why some would 'bother' remaining in the fellowship if they are unhappy/ questioning/ disturbed would be to try to effect change from within. I dare say many exes had such thoughts before moving on. I know I did, and others I know also. This might be a key. Yes we might want to effect a change to what seems to be what's better but we can't let that desire consume us. That wasn't one of the commandments Jesus left. Being consumed with the desire to change others convictions and beliefs to match our own, then being frustrated with the reality all we can do is influence not force others, would be a reason such a person would eventually leave. It would be a reason they then, having left, fall into the atrocity story telling trap - which is an attempt to effect a change from without - which most often doesn't work as well as we would like either. When that doesn't work the atrocity stories grow, and grow, and grow, until they become monsters that consume the writer. Easy to see when this has happened - and very sad to see. So... Love 'em all, and let God sort 'em out... That's what you should do with your family Pinky, love 'em, it's the best "weapon" you have - it might just knock them for a loop. |
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Post by someguy on Aug 12, 2011 9:41:09 GMT -5
My guess why some would 'bother' remaining in the fellowship if they are unhappy/ questioning/ disturbed would be to try to effect change from within. I dare say many exes had such thoughts before moving on. I know I did, and others I know also. This might be a key. Yes we might want to effect a change to what seems to be what's better but we can't let that desire consume us. That wasn't one of the commandments Jesus left. Being consumed with the desire to change others convictions and beliefs to match our own, then being frustrated with the reality all we can do is influence not force others, would be a reason such a person would eventually leave. It would be a reason they then, having left, fall into the atrocity story telling trap - which is an attempt to effect a change from without - which most often doesn't work as well as we would like either. When that doesn't work the atrocity stories grow, and grow, and grow, until they become monsters that consume the writer. Easy to see when this has happened - and very sad to see. So... Love 'em all, and let God sort 'em out... That's what you should do with your family Pinky, love 'em, it's the best "weapon" you have - it might just knock them for a loop. Though I agree Jesse, some of these stories grow until they have consumed the writer...what else is the writer to do? Try to forget about it, pretend it isn't happening, trust time will heal and just love. I know that is what we are called to do, but it can be very difficult, especially when the ones you love feel they are the only Christians on earth and treat you terribly upon leaving, thinking by some misguided ideal that this will "bring you home". Now this hasn't been my experience but it is the experience of some. What do you say for your fellow professing people who treat their own family so shamefully? Why would anyone leaving this group desire to return when they have been treated in such a manner? Then they come here and they post their experience and they are told they are making a story (which maybe they are) but it certainly doesn't cause them to think that the wonderful professing people are different on here. Nope, more just like their parents or family. If you defend the family or question their version are you not supporting the ill treatment they have or are receiving? And so it goes. In reality, if people would love unconditionally, treat everyone fairly, be equitable always there would be no need for forums such as this, however, this isn't the case and so we banter back and forth on here about some system we were/are a part of and try to find a solution to the obvious human problem. |
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 12, 2011 9:42:00 GMT -5
Is it possible that there are those who left the fellowship who refuse to have anything to do with those who are still inside (burned their bridges so to speak) because they do not like the judgemental spirit of many inside the fellowship? Why would they become exactly what they criticise? I don't get it. |
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 12, 2011 10:01:46 GMT -5
Then they come here and they post their experience and they are told they are making a story (which maybe they are) but it certainly doesn't cause them to think that the wonderful professing people are different on here. What kind of story is it? Atrocity story? I'm talking about atrocity stories here, read my reply to sherbear. One element of atrocity story is shifting all blame to others, another is "righteous" anger, which can lead to holding grudges and unforgiveness. Very easy to see when that's happened. I know not all stories about real or perceived atrocities turn into full blown atrocity stories but there are many examples of full blown atrocity stories per Wilson et al - some right on this page of this thread. It's good to read what professionals who've studied them have published about it. When you look at the big picture atrocity stories seem to be way more counter productive than productive, for the atrocity story teller too. They trap their author. They are not about building bridges but about keeping them burning. "But when you are praying, first forgive anyone you are holding a grudge against, so that your Father in heaven will forgive your sins, too." |
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Post by ts on Aug 12, 2011 10:40:57 GMT -5
The friends and workers do not like to hear "atrocity stories" of how their members, leadership and rules have affected people negatively. That is VERY understandable.
Also, the friends and workers do NOT want to hear the testimonies of people's walk and communication with our Heavenly Father if they are exes or outsiders. That refusal is part of what is setting the stage for atrocities(and the subsequent stories told about the atrocities). If there are no atrocities, there will be no stories. The atrocities are certainly avoidable. Step out and learn how other churches have dealt with these issues. The very act of stepping out and being willing to learn from others will SOLVE at least three quarters of the problems in the 2x2 church.
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Post by Sylvestra on Aug 12, 2011 11:13:12 GMT -5
Is it possible that there are those who left the fellowship who refuse to have anything to do with those who are still inside (burned their bridges so to speak) because they do not like the judgemental spirit of many inside the fellowship? Why would they become exactly what they criticise? I don't get it. Do you get other social prejudices? Even if you do not have racial prejudices yourself, do you understand what social or racial prejudices are? When someone leaves the F&W and their family holds themselves apart from the person leaving (this is done both verbally and none verbally), it is as hurtful and distancing as racial prejudice. Once a family member presents this prejudice, why would the person having left desire to be around them? This hurts even worse because love and family connection is involved, and is lost in the bridge burning. My question would be, however, is "who really set the match to the bridge?" Best regards, Edy |
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Post by emy on Aug 12, 2011 11:38:37 GMT -5
... Does God wish for any of us only to have such a 'mediocre' experience? "These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full"
This has been my experience. It hasn't always been and still isn't at times! But in my case until now the reason for the lack of joy/fullness/satisfaction has always been found within me. I have never needed to blame/criticise/point out the faults of the 'fellowship' or others in the 'fellowship' "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you" and until now any lack of The Kingdom within me has always be because of me. not the 'fellowship' or anyone else in the 'fellowship'. "Cleanse this testimony/fellowship and start with me" noels I agree. |
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Post by imnx2 on Aug 12, 2011 11:46:24 GMT -5
Salvation. Redemption. Justification. Sanctification. Perhaps more.
Seems Jesus expressed much of the first and the rest was implied...or just 'spiritual' exercise for others?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2011 11:47:28 GMT -5
With you feeling such I honestly struggle to see why 'bother' with the fellowship any longer? Please don't understand that to mean I am encouraging you to leave' for I am not. Great question and I'm very happy to answer it even though you may struggle to understand the answer. I "bother with the fellowship" BECAUSE OF the systemic problems, not IN SPITE of the systemic problems. It is a tremendous joy and a privilege to stay in on that basis alone. If you need a better answer, let's try again. Another great question. My joy and satisfaction is not based on what others do or do not do. Neither is my joy and satisfaction dependent upon being a member of a religious group of any stripe. My joy and satisfaction comes from doing what is good and right which, in Christian terms, comes from the "Christ within". I have no idea how JO sees himself, he doesn't look like Lech Walesa to me. For myself, I'm at best a small cog in a big wheel that is beyond my control. The wheel is turning. Absolutely and it is happening right now. Rejoice! You don't understand now, but some day you might understand how it is at least remotely possible for God to use anyone. Not at all in the least.....never apologize for frankness and honesty.....at least not to me anyway. I fully understand where you are coming from and the general nature of your post has been fully anticipated. I appreciate that you read my posts and give them consideration.....I don't ask any more that that. |
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Post by emy on Aug 12, 2011 11:50:30 GMT -5
Do you get other social prejudices? Even if you do not have racial prejudices yourself, do you understand what social or racial prejudices are? When someone leaves the F&W and their family holds themselves apart from the person leaving (this is done both verbally and none verbally), it is as hurtful and distancing as racial prejudice. Once a family member presents this prejudice, why would the person having left desire to be around them?
This hurts even worse because love and family connection is involved, and is lost in the bridge burning. My question would be, however, is "who really set the match to the bridge?" Best regards, Edy Because the love of Christ has taught them to love their enemies? |
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Post by quizzer on Aug 12, 2011 12:13:56 GMT -5
At least QUIZZER and FRED are getting a repreave while CD and JO are getting a hard time! Thanks for the repreave, mate! Next time, I'll run a few laps for you! |
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Post by quizzer on Aug 12, 2011 12:20:12 GMT -5
What kind of story is it? Atrocity story? I'm talking about atrocity stories here, read my reply to sherbear. One element of atrocity story is shifting all blame to others, another is "righteous" anger, which can lead to holding grudges and unforgiveness. Very easy to see when that's happened. I know not all stories about real or perceived atrocities turn into full blown atrocity stories but there are many examples of full blown atrocity stories per Wilson et al - some right on this page of this thread. It's good to read what professionals who've studied them have published about it. When you look at the big picture atrocity stories seem to be way more counter productive than productive, for the atrocity story teller too. They trap their author. They are not about building bridges but about keeping them burning. "But when you are praying, first forgive anyone you are holding a grudge against, so that your Father in heaven will forgive your sins, too." ...and if the friends and workers would step to listen and understand to what is occurring, there would be far fewer atrocity stories written on the Internet. For the most part, these scandals are caused because the perpetuator was protected and the victim was punished. This creates more atrocity stories because there are more victims. If the situation is not a crime, then the atrocity story is published because the situation was not dealt with in an equitable manner. Instead of being good stewards or moderators, the situation was polarized into a "good person/bad person" situation, and sides were taken. The "bad person," not having been given a fair hearing, speaks out. Nothing wrong with speaking your piece. All sides do need to be heard. However, judgment without care and/or understanding does create atrocity stories, even if the friends and workers turn deaf ears to them. |
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Post by emy on Aug 12, 2011 14:31:40 GMT -5
...and if the friends and workers would step to listen and understand to what is occurring, there would be far fewer atrocity stories written on the Internet. For the most part, these scandals are caused because the perpetuator was protected and the victim was punished. This creates more atrocity stories because there are more victims. If the situation is not a crime, then the atrocity story is published because the situation was not dealt with in an equitable manner. Instead of being good stewards or moderators, the situation was polarized into a "good person/bad person" situation, and sides were taken. The "bad person," not having been given a fair hearing, speaks out. Nothing wrong with speaking your piece. All sides do need to be heard. However, judgment without care and/or understanding does create atrocity stories, even if the friends and workers turn deaf ears to them. Let's be clear. There ARE atrocities that happen. The account of them is not what is meant by atrocity stories (tales). Atrocity stories are the ones that take a grain of truth, add lots of assumption, use little investigation and keep growing. At least that is how I understand it. |
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 12, 2011 14:40:39 GMT -5
Jesse, this is a prime example of taking a portion of what is written to make a point. People often do that with scripture as well. I said: "Is it possible that there are those who left the fellowship who refuse to have anything to do with those who are still inside (burned their bridges so to speak) because they do not like the judgemental spirit of many inside the fellowship? And at the same time there are those inside the fellowship who refuse to have anything to do with those who left the meeting (burned those bridges) because they believe those who left are corrupted and they don't want to be influenced or "drawn out" by them?" You are being dishonest if you think there are NOT many inside of the fellowship who judge other Christians outside as being confused, lost or deceived. Likewise those who have left and cling to the belief that everyone who continues to have fellowship in the 2x2 fellowship is deceived or lost or confused are just as guilty! So, yes you are correct in saying that those who judge all those inside are hypocritical (not exactly your words but basically your concept). Sadly some who are part of the 2x2 fellowship will not even consider joining in on spiritual conversations or sharing in prayer meetings with those outside of their fellowship as a result of preconceived notions about "the world". So they live with a limited view of things. Yes you are right I clipped that out, I'm sorry. You did get the concept. Yes I agree that there are friends and workers who are judgmental, so an exe would be correct in making that objective assessment about those specific people. But why would they then become judgmental to the point of deliberately burning bridges and telling atrocity stories (per Wilson et al) that broad brush an entire group of people like redback did? Doing that is part of the atrocity story phenomena, no doubt about it. The focus and blame on *everyone else* can become so intense that the atrocity story writer loses sight of themselves, much like that who looks at himself in the mirror and straightway forgets what manner of man he is. Instead all he sees are the faults, failures, moats and beams in *everyone else*. I think the most righteous judgment is judgment directed towards oneself. It's very hard to build a bridge, or tear down a wall, when any effort is under the constant attack of atrocity stories. A desire and purpose to keep telling atrocity stories (per Wilson et al) is in natural and logical opposition to a desire and purpose to build a bridge or tear down a wall. |
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 12, 2011 14:45:37 GMT -5
...and if the friends and workers would step to listen and understand to what is occurring, there would be far fewer atrocity stories written on the Internet. quizzer you do understand that the "atrocity story" I'm talking about is not just a simple objective story about an atrocity? Do you understand the meaning of atrocity story as defined by Wilson et al? That's the kind of atrocity story I'm talking about. Very easy to tell the difference, and there are examples in this thread. |
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Post by JO on Aug 12, 2011 16:35:35 GMT -5
This your experience/testimony ? If it was mine, Would I be in the fellowship today? I would have sought God's help in examining myself to see if the reasons why I wasn't knowing of deep satisfying fellowship was in my own heart. If I couldn't find them there? Would I 'hang in' hoping for things to get better? If you ever perceived that the Christian Convention church is not perfect, then you would leave? You wouldn't give God the opportunity to use you to make it better? That seems rather selfish and defeatist to me. |
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Post by JO on Aug 12, 2011 16:49:00 GMT -5
Does God wish for any of us only to have such a 'mediocre' experience? "These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full"
This has been my experience. It hasn't always been and still isn't at times! But in my case until now the reason for the lack of joy/fullness/satisfaction has always been found within me. I have never needed to blame/criticise/point out the faults of the 'fellowship' or others in the 'fellowship' "The Kingdom of Heaven is within you" and until now any lack of The Kingdom within me has always be because of me. not the 'fellowship' or anyone else in the 'fellowship'. "Cleanse this testimony/fellowship and start with me" noels Rule 1: The Christian Convention church is perfect. Rule 2: If ever I perceive the Christian Convention church to be less than perfect, the fault is in me. |
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Post by quizzer on Aug 12, 2011 17:02:52 GMT -5
quizzer you do understand that the "atrocity story" I'm talking about is not just a simple objective story about an atrocity? Do you understand the meaning of atrocity story as defined by Wilson et al? That's the kind of atrocity story I'm talking about. Very easy to tell the difference, and there are examples in this thread. Jesse, I don't believe that many people who have been abused can ever tell their story objectively. A few can. Most can't. If all you're looking for in an abusive situation is objectivity, then you will - for the most part - be sorely disappointed. On the other hand, has it mattered what the definition of "atrocity story" is? We may both understand the definition, but the usage of the term "atrocity story" is questionable. From my vantage point, you bandy about the term "atrocity story" whenever you are tired of listening of problems within the 2x2s. All I ask is that, if you love the friends and workers as much as you say you do, that you do not judge simply because you are tired. Thanks, quizzer |
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Post by quizzer on Aug 12, 2011 17:20:17 GMT -5
I choose not to have fellowship in the 2x2 part of the church but that does not mean I do not count them as brothers and sisters. And I am concerned that you have made a statement that Christ is an unknown Savior in the 2x2s. I happen to know those inside that very much love Jesus and appreciate His sacrifice and have liberty in Christ. sherbear, This may be true - that there are those professing who truly have understood salvation by grace. If so, it is being practiced quietly. My biggest concern is that I don't hear much about Christ from the platform or in gospel meetings. In my area, the 2x2s are dying out. This is obvious in fewer and fewer seats needed for meetings and special meetings. In fact, the friends are usually addressed individually by the workers about bringing outsiders to gospel meetings. Sometimes, the friends oblige by bringing in friends from other areas to fill up a gospel meeting. Sometimes, it's just the friends in my area that show up, and it's really small. It's at these times that even the workers are discouraged about having a gospel meeting. The shrinking of the meetings isn't lost on the workers. However, when one hears the tone of the gospel meetings, one isn't encouraged to bring outsiders. The exclusive testimony dominates, with all sorts of warnings about how horrible it is to leave the meetings. My outsider friends would hear one of these testimonies, and then tell me that there would be NO WAY they would join a church that believes their soul to be lost because they weren't born into a professing family. So, few outsiders are brought to gospel meetings. I would argue that the friends and workers are grappling with their spirituality and Christianity in my area more than ever. My territory has produced some of the scariest exe-2x2s that the workers have ever known. However, the main 2x2 message is now overwhelmingly about exclusivity. The workers have stepped up to fight the exe-2x2s, rather than confront the issues within the 2x2s. So, those friends and workers who are accepting Christ are very quiet, and are quietly exiting the meetings. In the end, it's not about the exe-2x2s, salvation by grace or works, or the size of the meetings. It's about the 2x2s having troubles, and choosing not to manage the troubles. My thoughts, anyway, and I welcome yours, quizzer |
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) as a result of a mindset that tends to exclude all who do not embrace and follow the 2x2 structure from the ONE TRUE CHURCH of Jesus.
