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Post by melissa71 on Aug 10, 2011 23:04:04 GMT -5
I just want to comment here that I have enjoyed my time spent on TLC and it has been a great help to me in healing and growing. I have recommended it to others on this board who have gone there and have told me they enjoy the atmosphere as well.
And, no, not everyone is a Christian there and no, not everyone agrees. But participants are much more respectful to each other in general than on this board.
Not sure why it is such a hot button? Why would you folks that are satisfied with going to meetings care if those of us who have left meetings or those who are questioning have a place to meet and discuss things privately?
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Post by stargazer on Aug 10, 2011 23:15:42 GMT -5
If you read back, you'll note many of us don't.
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Post by melissa71 on Aug 10, 2011 23:15:43 GMT -5
I would say TLC is a place of healing for many of those who have left the 2x2 system because they see other former members who HAVE moved on. I can tell you, while there are some raw posts where people are angry with the system, there are far more posts where people are encouraging one another in Christ, talking about their experiences outside of meetings, etc. It is not simply focused on meetings/the system. You cannot be blind and ignorant (and this is not pointed to anyone directly) to believe that some people who were in meetings have not experienced real abuse and pain within the group. Some people have had some horrible experiences, and it helps to be able to talk about it without a bunch of people acting like it didn't happen or shaming the victim. Many lose all their friends and are shunned by their families when they leave. It is not easy to leave meetings for most people. They still love and adore many of the people within and it is a big, huge step for them to walk away from the system and into the arms of Christ alone. It seems that many of those still within meetings (and many posting here today) have had wonderful experiences within meetings, but that has not been so for everyone. I do spend more time on TLC than I spend on TMB (honestly, I come here maybe 2-3 times a month). I visit TLC a couple times a week for a short amount of time (5-10 minutes). In the beginning, I spent more time there reading others' testimonies and getting to know other posters. And emy, I would second that it is not a rejection of other Christians, but of a system that we do not agree with. I agree -- and like you mentioned-- we have a lot of spiritual discussions on TLC where the subject of the meeting system doesn't even come up. It is not the focus. Healing, moving on, growing -- that's been the main focus of most of the members in my experience there. We have a common background-- and like Dave mentioned also -- no one else can understand what we have gone through in leaving the system except others who have left. |
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Post by JO on Aug 10, 2011 23:41:01 GMT -5
gf posted yuup our fellowship is made of different people with different spiritual experiences I love the hymn, I quoted in my previous post the depth, meaning and reality of it Grant us the faith that understands Our ONLY hope is CalvarySure there are those in our fellowship who don't have this faith/revelation/understanding! 'It is only a proud shepherd that doesn't have sick sheep'!As a worker/minister/shepherd in our fellowship I know something of how some of our people are! Does that take away from/negate the experience those who are as Cherie states, posts and acknowledges are Saved Christians?within our fellowship (aka the 'two by two system') Noels, I doubt that anyone expects you to single-handedly fix the 2x2 system. Just keep on preaching and teaching and living Christ. And help people towards this: Grant us the faith that understands Our ONLY hope is Calvary...instead of this: Grant us the faith that understands Our ONLY hope is the "Way/Truth/2x2/Christian Convention" church. |
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Post by lazarus66 on Aug 10, 2011 23:45:41 GMT -5
As a member of TLC, I enjoy the freedom to post there. I also enjoy that I have never been attacked like I have here on TMB.
The majority of the people there post with their real names, and most are like a family.
I do not agree with all the ideals posted there, but feel that those have the right to post them, just as I do here, only here there exists an attitude of negativity that I haven't found there.
Noels, you asked Cherie if she considered people in the "fellowship" saved. I have to ask you, as a worker, do you have a list of those that are saved and those that aren't saved?
If you considered me not saved, does that make it true and is that not judging me? Why ask Cherie to judge whether your group is saved, when like she said, and I have heard in convention, not all will be accepted as saved? I noticed it changed to some in the group.
If you feel like you are saved, it ends there. I doubt anyone will judge you or say you are not saved due to your affiliation to a certain group.
Things are shared on TLC that can not be understood by people that have not experienced leaving this fellowship anymore that those that have never heard of it can understand it.
As for exclusivity, YES it is exclusive. It is exclusive to those that share an experience. Does this exclusivity Judge whether one is saved or not, or a Christian or not, NO!!!
If you can honestly say that people have not been treated poorly after leaving the "truth", you are either ignorant, or blind. Many have been shunned, mistreated, and slandered.
I was amazed to find out more truth about the "truth" after I left and spoke with those that were directly involved in situations, than the lies that were being spread, especially in one particular situation. This dealt with a person that was supposed to have done all of these despicable things, and I found out from a family member that 99% of what truthers told me was not true.
Cherie said that she didn't considered them unsaved, and that was not good enough for you. What is the opposite of "unsaved"? Are you really that slow that you can't figure it out?
I am grateful for the TLC and remain satisfied with the treatment and freedom there.
The TMB could do well to take a page out of letting other post their beliefs without attacks, but then we "exes" are all lost anyway, so I don't know why you waste your time with us.
Check out your beam before you get out your looking glass for my speck.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2011 0:55:31 GMT -5
lazarus66 my experience on TMB has been the same as yours. They do tend to rend you here, whereas they receive you on TLC. I suppose if they rend you, it is not as bad as being rendered. That would tend to wipe you out.
I think there is some hope for the future, and a lot of people are starting to realize that the 2x2 doctrine is out of date, and that there are other ways of connecting with God.
I think we will see a transformation, it is long overdue.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 11, 2011 6:25:51 GMT -5
lazarus66 my experience on TMB has been the same as yours. They do tend to rend you here, whereas they receive you on TLC. I suppose if they rend you, it is not as bad as being rendered. That would tend to wipe you out. I think there is some hope for the future, and a lot of people are starting to realize that the 2x2 doctrine is out of date, and that there are other ways of connecting with God. I think we will see a transformation, it is long overdue. No redback, opinions blown up into universal truth statements will get analyzed. If you for instance make statements like these as if they are universal and objective truths they will get questioned; - "I do not blame the people who post there, but rather the man made belief system originated by William Irvine." [Irvine is to blame for opinions getting rent on TMB] - "people get drawn in and held captive and become willing slaves to the founder" [no wait it's worse, we are Irvine's slaves] - "It is built on the thoughts and ideas of a single person, or group of people, and when you sit down and analyse the belief system it has little substance." [God is not involved at all, Cherie might disagree,  ] - "If you get sucked in it is very difficult to escape, it becomes a black hole. Because the belief system controls your mind, it does not allow you to use the mind the way God intended. Many I know are not happy in that black hole, and have to take antidepressants to keep them going." All I can say is, wow, well on the way to atrocity story. When you attack thinking people in public with those kinds of subjective opinions you will get called on it. When those opinions morph into atrocity story then the reliability of the story will be questioned. This has been studied by professionals, If you'd like to read more about it here's a couple links; www.religiousfreedomwatch.org/religious-experts/credible-experts/Specifically; -> The Reliability of Apostate Testimony About New Religious Movements-> Apostates and New Religious Movements Read through the swine rending thread for more. And don't think people can't see and understand what's going on. Some of us outside TLC just might be using our God given brain too.  I am so glad that in the eventide of my life I have found TLC. Every day I spend time there and it brings great peace and comfort to me. Sadly I do not enjoy the same experience on TMB. I do not blame the people who post there, but rather the man made belief system originated by William Irvine. Of course there are thousands of similar belief systems that have been developed by man since time began. It is built on the thoughts and ideas of a single person, or group of people, and when you sit down and analyse the belief system it has little substance. Usually the result of someones thought process, based on mythology and containing little fact. Unfortunately people get drawn in and held captive and become willing slaves to the founder. If you get sucked in it is very difficult to escape, it becomes a black hole. Because the belief system controls your mind, it does not allow you to use the mind the way God intended. Many I know are not happy in that black hole, and have to take antidepressants to keep them going. Not a good way to live. TLC is the only antidepressant I use. There is a way of escape from the black hole as some of us have found. We would encourage those who are not happy in the system, to take the step we have taken, and find peace and joy in their lives as God intended. TLC is not a belief system, but a place where people with different beliefs can have fellowship together without argument or ill feeling. Why is this so???. Because they have found God, and God controls their thoughts. No longer do they adhere to a man made belief system. Come join us, you won't regret it. |
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 11, 2011 6:34:33 GMT -5
Now I'm going to ask YOU two direct questions and hopefully you can give me direct and honest answers. Do YOU believe other churches outside of the F&W fellowship are part of God's ONE TRUE FAMILY? Is a church a system? I would say there are people outside the F&W fellowship who have been and are part of God's one-generation family. I'd be a fool to think otherwise. But ultimately it's not mine to judge. I don't understand why I am practically forced to answer questions about what's not mine to judge. Again I don't know for sure, that's between them and God, but my opinion is that yes it looks like some were called out by God. Those that insist on building on and continuously posting about what they think we are doing wrong I wonder about - for obvious reasons. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2011 8:23:50 GMT -5
That might not be a bad idea for a mission noels. There are a lot of friends who believe that being part of the meetings is an essential part of the cause for their hope for eternity........and that is precisely one of the problems of being an exclusive church group. It's Jesus Plus, it diminishes Jesus and raises up the church group. |
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Post by rational on Aug 11, 2011 8:51:05 GMT -5
In the end it comes down to blaming people, if you are blaming a system you by default are blaming people, especially in a fellowship with so little carnal structure. I was wondering what "carnal structure" was. |
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Post by Sylvestra on Aug 11, 2011 10:22:48 GMT -5
Wow this almost makes me laugh! I have personally known so many of our fellowship and heard of many more who have had no fear as they have faced death! Look even Cherie has posted/stated regarding the fellowship that members are a)Christians and b) There truly are saved people amongst us. Would/could such such people fear death and feel their salvation is based on their 'good works'? I am not questioning the accuracy of your post..and what your experience was.....based on the 'sample base' of your 'survey' As to an accurate reflection of representative sample of the fellowship? The words of that hymn Increase our faith when, night at hand, Death would return our souls to Thee;
Grant us the faith that understands Our only hope is Calvary.[/b] [/quote] noels, my mother was born and raised in this church. She will be 88 years old next week. I have heard her say that she fears death, and the "she hopes she's lived a good enough life to 'make it' ". It is a common thread I've heard from other relatives who are still in your church. So laugh if you want, but I think you and your fellow workers had better get out there and start preaching the assurance of salvation in the blood of Christ!! Understanding what I used to believe and having the dawning that my salvation does not rest in MY works but on Christ's works lifted a huge burden from me, and for the first time I truly had the joy and peace I had heard about all my life! And for the first time I could say Yes, I AM saved! |
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Post by sharonw on Aug 11, 2011 10:55:51 GMT -5
Perhaps one should say "I am redeemed." That would or should bring to mind that Jesus Christ died for all of mankind, He redeemed us, Oh what Mercy. Greater love couldnever be."
I think bearing the testiminy of being redeemed says so much more then being saved. JMO
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Post by sharonw on Aug 11, 2011 11:06:30 GMT -5
CherieKropp wrote: On the other hand, I understand that many/most? of the F&W do not know or consider themselves saved; and instead in their uncertainty, they express a "hope" that they will inherit eternal life, and they themselves do not know in this lifetime if/that they are saved. This is sad to me. This view of how F&W members view salvation is also what I understand. In the mid-1970s, I asked several acquaintances at one convention if they had “any fear of what comes after death.” Almost without exception, the response was something like “I hope I can prove worthy at the end…” (The exceptions were worded somewhat differently, but with similar meaning.) Not once did anyone answer, " No!" As recently as about one year ago I heard an overseer at a funeral speak about the “hope we have in Jesus." It's my uunderstanding that the "hope" is really that which our faith brings and yes, our faith is in Jesus Christ. Hbr 11:1 ¶ Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. |
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Post by lazarus66 on Aug 11, 2011 11:12:42 GMT -5
Noels, I don't know if you are intentionally ignoring me and my questions, but my mother was "professing" from around 1953 to her death in 2006.
She hated anyone that did not profess and go to meetings and had some unkind things to say about some that did profess. I believe she also had mental imbalances, but she could turn off her hatred like a light switch, when the workers were around.
I have never known a person so afraid of death in my entire life. I always wondered why.
I am bi-polar, and know that I have mood swings, but I don't treat people like crap one day and good the next. It affects ME, and I deal with it.
Do you think anyone should fear death? Especially if they are going to meetings?
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Post by sharonw on Aug 11, 2011 11:18:25 GMT -5
lazarus66 my experience on TMB has been the same as yours. They do tend to rend you here, whereas they receive you on TLC. I suppose if they rend you, it is not as bad as being rendered. That would tend to wipe you out. I think there is some hope for the future, and a lot of people are starting to realize that the 2x2 doctrine is out of date, and that there are other ways of connecting with God. I think we will see a transformation, it is long overdue. Well, if we are to be rendered there will be nothing left but a greasy spot.  Otherwords, goodbye. adios. etc. |
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Post by ronhall on Aug 11, 2011 11:46:37 GMT -5
Come join us, you won't regret it. Thanks for the invitation, redback. I did make application to join TLC some time ago, but didn't qualify under the rules. I'm glad you have a board where the participants can meet and discuss things privately and respectfully. The reason I care is that I have many friends, including close relatives who have left the meetings. The reasons vary, but an element of disrespect is part of every story, it seems. So, I would just encourage you all on TLC to maintain a high level of respect, encouragement and edification. Don't let the values listed in the fruit of the spirit depart and especially don't let your discussions drift into a litany of 'pity parties'. I sincerely hope the best for all of you. |
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Post by SharonArnold on Aug 11, 2011 13:59:53 GMT -5
I have known a number of people who have faced death with courage, grace, dignity and assurance. I have had the privilege of being present when people I have loved have died. I have known a few people who, by their example, have taught me how to die. I have known people who have looked to whatever comes after this life with anticipation.
However, in all my experience, I would say that I have known only one individual who had absolutely no fear of death. No fear. Zero. Zilch. None. It was quite remarkable and I feel very blessed to have known him. There is a difference between a state of courage|grace|dignity|assurance and absolutely no fear. I don't think I would have known that there was a difference, but for this person.
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Post by quizzer on Aug 11, 2011 14:53:14 GMT -5
Noels, I don't know if you are intentionally ignoring me and my questions, but my mother was "professing" from around 1953 to her death in 2006. She hated anyone that did not profess and go to meetings and had some unkind things to say about some that did profess. I believe she also had mental imbalances, but she could turn off her hatred like a light switch, when the workers were around. I have never known a person so afraid of death in my entire life. I always wondered why. I am bi-polar, and know that I have mood swings, but I don't treat people like crap one day and good the next. It affects ME, and I deal with it. Do you think anyone should fear death? Especially if they are going to meetings? sympathy bro--your mom sounds like some of the people in my family. I remember my professing grandmother was terrified of death. to the point where she started having panic attacks and had to be put on zanex (at her death she professed over 70 years....) I've known senior brother workers to die with this same fear. The other attending workers can't discuss the incident without fearing that they will die the same way. |
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Post by JO on Aug 11, 2011 15:38:23 GMT -5
Is this part of the role of a non exclusivist? To tell people whose only hope is Calvary that in fact they are imagining that and.... really they have hope in a undemoninational denomination called Way/Truth/2x2 ?   That might not be a bad idea for a mission noels. There are a lot of friends who believe that being part of the meetings is an essential part of the cause for their hope for eternity........and that is precisely one of the problems of being an exclusive church group. It's Jesus Plus, it diminishes Jesus and raises up the church group. I think you're yanking my chain NOELS. I can't believe you haven't noticed people putting their hope in church membership more than in Calvary. |
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Post by JO on Aug 11, 2011 17:11:33 GMT -5
Relax, I'm not stretching your belief muscles Of course there are people like that. But if that was the doctrine of the fellowship that you and I belong ago, then a)I would never have had the born again experience that I have had or b)I would have 'been out of it a long time ago. Are you "(Fred?) half empty glass type' or a (noels?) half full to 'my cup overfloweth type? noels The fellowship's doctrine is not what gave us our born again experience. Our born again experience is by the grace of God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour. Our cup overflowing for us personally is not proportional to the rightness of the fellowship. Rather, its proportional to the extent to which the Lord is our Shepherd. However, by the amount of water in the cup you might be thinking of how we see the fellowship? If so, I guess I'm a half full type. I see a lot of potential along with a lot of lack. I've never encouraged anyone to leave the fellowship. I'd prefer that everyone hang in there and let God use us all to make it what it should be. The biggest enemy to widespread spiritual prosperity is the refusal to acknowledge that the cup is only partly full and its got holes in the bottom. Too many people equate the fellowship with "God's perfect way" and think that being a member in good standing is a ticket to heaven. Some men were talking at convention: Man 1: "I've been in the way of God ___ years." Man 2: "I've been in the way of God ___ years, but I realise its time I got out of the way and let him work." |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2011 20:08:26 GMT -5
essential part.....hmm? I sure appreciate the help I get for my soul because of this fellowship. I have zero desire to be part of any other. You might be surprised by the number of friends who feel pretty similar to me? Wiggle wiggle noels. Those comments had nothing to do with how appreciative participants are of the fellowship. Unless you have been in the Antarctica field for the last few decades, you and I both know that most friends and workers believe that they cannot enter the kingdom of heaven without being an active part of the kingdom of workers and friends. What are you doing about that? The problem isn't that there are some "Jesus Plus'ers" in the fellowship. The problem is that the fellowship is a Jesus Plus fellowship. This isn't a problem of a few rogue people, this is a systemic problem. Neither really. To me, the glass simply contains what it contains, it is what it is....there is absolutely no value in spinning the perception to make to appear full or empty. |
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Post by ronhall on Aug 11, 2011 20:46:52 GMT -5
essential part.....hmm? I sure appreciate the help I get for my soul because of this fellowship. I have zero desire to be part of any other. You might be surprised by the number of friends who feel pretty similar to me? noels A number of incidents have occurred to me and around me that have challenged my earlier belief that the gate to salvation hinged on standing up on the third verse . . . . . . over the past several years. What I've come to understand is that, while fellowship meetings are important in that they keep folks with limited attention span, like me, on track, they are what they are called -- fellowship meetings rather than worship meetings. I have learned that worship is not a weekly function, but is a continuous redirection of one's entire character where the focus is on Jesus and the surety of eternal life by the gift of his shed blood. (I use the word "surety" rather than "hope" because the the meaning of hope was stronger at the time of translating the Bible, I've been made aware of.) This change in thinking has been a tremendous liberator for me and my wife. We no longer feel in bondage to the 'unwritten rules' and the viewpoints of others concerning them. Not that I am about to grow a pony tail and my wife get a crew cut -- we know such behavior would alienate us from the fellowship. Our respect for our brethren in the fellowship trumps our understanding that a hair length specification is not indicated as a salient feature of a Christian, but love for our brethren is. Like Noels, I love the meetings. I know the folks we meet with. Know what experiences they are having, where they have had victory and where failure has taken them down. They are just like me. I can personally empathize and understand them. This helps me to love them in a Christian way. No, I have no interest in another kind of fellowship. |
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Post by rational on Aug 11, 2011 21:08:14 GMT -5
Do you think anyone should fear death? Especially if they are going to meetings? Death is as much a part of life as birth. Why should anyone fear death? |
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Post by emy on Aug 11, 2011 21:40:06 GMT -5
Amen. Worship is something we do before God in spirit and in truth every day and includes living our life as He directs daily. Fellowship is where we share the result of our private worship. As I see it, partaking of the emblems is the true worship part of our meeting.
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Post by greatfull2010 on Aug 11, 2011 21:43:15 GMT -5
I was interested to consider this question from noels
How much is too much? or how many is too many.
I guess the answer will vary from person to person. How many is too many from my perspective may be a far lower number than what noels or JO would think is too many.
I concur with JO's "too many" on this basis.
I thought I would just count how many elders and their wives I know and have been a part of their meeting on a permanent basis who subscribe openly to this theory that JO describes.
I'll give them a Yes = Only one true way believers - Salvation and fellowship in the 2x2's are entwined and inseparable.
No = Opposite of above
DN = Dont know- they havnt openly stated their belief to me
Last Sunday morn mtg we attended up to Oct 2010 = Yes
Previous Sunday morn mtg 1995 - July 2010 = Yes
Part time Sunday morn mtg when working out of town 2009-2010 = Yes
Sunday morn mtg 1991 - 1995 = Yes
Sunday morn mtg 1977 - 1991 = Yes
Sunday night mtg 1995 - 2008 = DN
Sunday night mtg 2008 - 2010 (Our home) No
Our wed night mtg was same place as sunday morn.
This is a pretty unscientific poll but to me it paints a picture.
IMO the term "TOO MANY" is valid.
Can the 2x2'ers have a positive and fulfilling happy life and be like noels and be content and feel at peace and have a contentment?
IMO - A persons joy or contentment or level of security in the 2x2's can be immense. Can a person have a false belief and still have a joy and contentment?
Absolutely!! - I had this fullness of joy and a level of contentment and peace that I classed as wonderful for many years. I just happened to tie my love and belief of God into an inseparable love of the way and fellowship and Gods Way was to me The Way, The Truth, and the system and tradition of the F&W's church.
There may be many exes who dont believe that this is possible but I fully believe noels when he talks of such experiences. Sadly IMO too many are having lovely experiences based on a foundation of false teaching.
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Post by greatfull2010 on Aug 11, 2011 22:04:48 GMT -5
ronhall -Great post. I commend you and encourage you.
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Post by emy on Aug 11, 2011 22:53:02 GMT -5
That makes it sound like only the f&w ever attack anyone. Is that true? That's true for some, but there are some who state they are not interested in building bridges.  |
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Post by Sylvestra on Aug 11, 2011 22:53:15 GMT -5
GF In your last post you used 'IMO' a number of times. I probably should use it more also. Would it be correct that many TMB posts would be more meaningful if acknowledgement was made in them that at best they are an personal opinion or an expression from a personal perspective?.... That such is not necessary a correct statement of the fellowship as a whole? May if we all could post in such a manner TMB would be a better and more useful place? noels I don't need anyone else's acknowledgement that what they write is THEIR opinon! They might need to reflect that about themselves and realize that their opinions are not necessarily facts. Being on a Board such as this one, I think we all know that it is ALL about opinions! Don't ya' think? E |
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