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Post by quizzer on Aug 9, 2011 16:45:19 GMT -5
Hang in there, greatfull2010.
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Post by JO on Aug 9, 2011 16:55:48 GMT -5
Seriously people - if you understand that some exes go through a personal hell when they leave the fellowship surely you can accept that it is logical and helpful for them to have some support?? A reason for TLC's exclusivity that makes sense to me is that folks can speak freely without having to worry about professing family listening in to the conversation. It mightn't be a concern in your case GF, but some have relatives tightly enclosed in the professing bubble. I wish people could get out of the bubble without feeling obliged to leave the fellowship. |
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Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Aug 9, 2011 17:00:07 GMT -5
I would say TLC is a place of healing for many of those who have left the 2x2 system because they see other former members who HAVE moved on. I can tell you, while there are some raw posts where people are angry with the system, there are far more posts where people are encouraging one another in Christ, talking about their experiences outside of meetings, etc.
It is not simply focused on meetings/the system.
You cannot be blind and ignorant (and this is not pointed to anyone directly) to believe that some people who were in meetings have not experienced real abuse and pain within the group. Some people have had some horrible experiences, and it helps to be able to talk about it without a bunch of people acting like it didn't happen or shaming the victim.
Many lose all their friends and are shunned by their families when they leave. It is not easy to leave meetings for most people. They still love and adore many of the people within and it is a big, huge step for them to walk away from the system and into the arms of Christ alone.
It seems that many of those still within meetings (and many posting here today) have had wonderful experiences within meetings, but that has not been so for everyone.
I do spend more time on TLC than I spend on TMB (honestly, I come here maybe 2-3 times a month). I visit TLC a couple times a week for a short amount of time (5-10 minutes). In the beginning, I spent more time there reading others' testimonies and getting to know other posters.
And emy, I would second that it is not a rejection of other Christians, but of a system that we do not agree with.
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Post by CherieKropp on Aug 9, 2011 17:56:34 GMT -5
That's a particularly good analogy greatful2010:
I laugh at those F&W's who want to have access to TLC !!
Thats just like opening the doors to all abusive husbands and men at the Womens Refuge!!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2011 17:56:52 GMT -5
Hey Cherie .... Does this make sense? If I make a nuisance of myself/post disruptively I can fully understand why I should not be allowed to join, but if I do not do such, then why should I not be granted admission? I don't understand? This is some of the questioning I have ... by your SERIOUSLY QUESTIONING - do you mean seriously questioning our fellowship? What if someone has an open mind and just wishes to observe TLC a bit? That is all I would do? Would there be stuff there that you didn't wish for me to read? I don't understand please explain thanks, noels noels, Seriously questioning means seriously questioning. If you do not understand the concept of seriously questioning then you aren’t seriously questioning at all. It’s a bit like having diarrhoea. If you don’t know whether or not you have diarrhoea then you ain’t got diarrhoea. It really is that straightforward. For your benefit, seriously questioning means seriously questioning whether what the workers have taught you really is the truth after all. Seriously questioning means seriously questioning whether the cr*p they told you about it being from the beginning really adds up. Seriously questioning means seriously questioning whether you really want to spend the rest of your life in a sea of self-righteousness with people who believe every other person outside of your fellowship is freewheeling down the road to hell. Seriously questioning means seriously questioning whether you really want to continue to be associated with a group whose foundation rests with a bunch of nineteenth century riot rousing Scots and Irishmen but whose leadership are too deceitful to acknowledge it. Seriously questioning means wondering whether life is too short or too long to continue on believing such nonsense. This is not about you being a nuisance or posting disruptively. This is not about you not answering questions or pretending to be something that you’re not. This is not about you not having a problem with something or about something not being like that where you are. This is about you being refused entry to a club whose membership criteria you do not meet. I suggest that you deal with it and stop begging like a dog at the door. Matt10 |
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Post by emy on Aug 9, 2011 19:53:48 GMT -5
A reason for TLC's exclusivity that makes sense to me is that folks can speak freely without having to worry about professing family listening in to the conversation. This makes more sense than any of the other reasons, to me. |
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Post by emy on Aug 9, 2011 19:54:40 GMT -5
Rejection of other Christians... isn't that a no-no? I can understand if a TLC member needs a safe place to vent and heal from what they consider traumatic or in fact was traumatic. It seems though, if that's the primary reason for existence, that board is destined to be principally comprised of the newly hurt and wounded and their mentors. Those who actually heal would probably want to move on, so, it makes sense that TLC members would be interested in TMB and elsewhere. So I'd welcome TLC members here if they'd continue to respect this forum as it's said they do there. For that matter, and we've all learned something about this for ourselves, it's incumbent to all TMB posters and members to be courteous as well. Stargazer, was this a response to what I said? |
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Post by emy on Aug 9, 2011 20:03:07 GMT -5
... Many people worldwide are growing weary of such lukewarm or even cold spiritual life inside of these systems. I believe that is why we see such a trend of people breaking out of their organized churches and meeting together in small groups for genuine spirit filled fellowship. They are craving genuine FREEDOM IN CHRIST! And BTW, I am not including the 2x2 way when I refer to this trend, though there might actually be some 2x2 fellowship meetings that enjoy this true freedom of which I speak. In my opinion (based on my experience) there are probably not very many of them.How wide has your experience been? I really have to disagree with you that our group is a system, not a fellowship. For one thing, our meetings are small so if one person or one family makes a change they would like to see in the church as a whole, then that church may pick up on the change. While there are some things that go with a system, they are not the life of the church. Life in a church can fit into the system, as evidenced by the meetings you reference as having true freedom. |
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Post by stargazer on Aug 9, 2011 20:17:35 GMT -5
I can understand if a TLC member needs a safe place to vent and heal from what they consider traumatic or in fact was traumatic. It seems though, if that's the primary reason for existence, that board is destined to be principally comprised of the newly hurt and wounded and their mentors. Those who actually heal would probably want to move on, so, it makes sense that TLC members would be interested in TMB and elsewhere. So I'd welcome TLC members here if they'd continue to respect this forum as it's said they do there. For that matter, and we've all learned something about this for ourselves, it's incumbent to all TMB posters and members to be courteous as well. Stargazer, was this a response to what I said? No, it wasn't. I meant to trim off your comment and speak only to the clip from Cherie's post. Sorry. |
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Post by faune on Aug 9, 2011 22:03:05 GMT -5
How wide has your experience been? I really have to disagree with you that our group is a system, not a fellowship. For one thing, our meetings are small so if one person or one family makes a change they would like to see in the church as a whole, then that church may pick up on the change. While there are some things that go with a system, they are not the life of the church. Life in a church can fit into the system, as evidenced by the meetings you reference as having true freedom. Emy, the meetings provide fellowship, but the "method", the "doctrine" and the "basic core beliefs" are the system. Each individual is unique. Some, who do not agree with parts of the "system" may be able to reach out and acknowledge others outside of the group as brothers and sisters. Others who cannot separate themselves from "the system" are unable to be the truly unique individual that God created them to be and are moreless trapped in a "system" that manipulates them. Sorry if that comes across in a disrespectful manner but that is how I view things. I am not singling out the 2x2 system as this could apply to ANY religious system. And I believe completely that the church Jesus established has NO walls around it separating itself from anyone who loves Him.
You may have figured out by now that I do not promote "religion". I promote unconditional love and true unbound fellowship. FYI - I do not consider YOU as the system - I view YOU as a unique individual that God loves and one that God wants to guide and use.And one more comment - I believe God would like to see the 2x2 fellowship meetings welcome ANYONE (regardless of their choice of church home) to take part in prayer testimony and partake of the emblems when they are present in the meetings, recognizing them truly as brothers and sisters in Christ. Sherbear ~ Now those were words "fitly spoken" and I agree with you completely. As Clearday recently said on another thread that he envisions God as "love and truth combined" ~ pure and simple. I feel when we sincerely connect with our Creator we will start showing due respect to all of God's creation, regardless of their beliefs or lack of the same. I hate seeing people boxed in by religious perspectives and in the process lose contact with the outside world. |
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Post by CherieKropp on Aug 9, 2011 22:10:39 GMT -5
Mr. Chuckles:
TLC is what it is, and for good reasons.
It is also sovereign and the Admin rules.
You have some mis-information and misconceptions regarding TLC. I'm not providing further explanations to you.
You're on a need-to-know basis in my book.
You don't meet the TLC-FC criteria for membership.
May as well give it up - go on down the road.
When you leave the 2x2 meeting system - you might apply to TLC.
noels asked:
I will again go on record and state as I have on numerous previous occasions, that I consider the F&W to be Christians, and I do NOT consider them to be "unsaved."
CK
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Post by faune on Aug 9, 2011 22:11:03 GMT -5
I agree wholeheartedly. Being courteous is to be kind, and being kind is one evidence of the "Fruit of the Spirit".
I believe that being kind in a public setting where a person is basically incognito is a very accurate and positive indicator of the person's real character.[/quote] Ronhall ~ I couldn't agree more!  A little kindness and respect goes a long ways in creating a healthy atmosphere to come together and discuss things openly. There is no need to brow-beat anyone for disagreeing with your perspective, as that's what forums are all about ~ sharing our different opinions and maybe coming together sometimes on a concensus? |
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Post by quizzer on Aug 9, 2011 22:40:55 GMT -5
There are some who are hurting and only wish to share with others who are/have faced such. But the FC board?..... Posters can post using a poster name to retain their anonymity. How can my request to not make a nuisance nor post disruptivelybe understood as opening the doors to all abusive husbands and men at the Womens Refuge!! noels, posing this question is an excellent example of not having the revelation that you need to care for the hurting. If you don't get it, you don't get it. |
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Post by CherieKropp on Aug 10, 2011 6:28:30 GMT -5
noels asked:
Yes. That is the same as what I wrote: "I do not consider them unsaved."
On the other hand, I understand that many/most? of the F&W do not know or consider themselves saved; and instead in their uncertainty, they express a "hope" that they will inherit eternal life, and they themselves do not know in this lifetime if/that they are saved. This is sad to me.
You're hijacking this thread which is supposed to be about "websites about workers, friends, meetings, Truth and no name sects", etc. However, I'm through talking with you, so there is no need to start a separate thread.
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 10, 2011 8:14:35 GMT -5
I've noticed this blaming "the system". What exactly is "the system"? Define it objectively and precisely. And how is it completely separate from people? Explain. It's so easy to blame a subjective faceless entity like "the system", so easy it makes the doing of it look like a cop out. Seems like something invented to blame so it doesn't look like people are being blamed. That's nothing but blame shifting in a Harry Potter shape shifting sort of way. In the end it comes down to blaming people, if you are blaming a system you by default are blaming people, especially in a fellowship with so little carnal structure.
Before any respond remember the fallacy of too few alternatives... there are more possibilities than just the view "the system" is an objective verifiable entity, a box to cram the friends and workers into.
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Post by CherieKropp on Aug 10, 2011 9:03:58 GMT -5
noels - slow down. Read my response again.
I have not edited it.
I answered your yes/no question.
What is it about my answer "YES" that you do not understand?
Actually it would be more correct for me to write:
I believe there are saved Christians within the F&W church. (After all: as we have often heard "not everyone who professes...possesses.")
CK
PS "I consider them saved"
conveys the exact same meaning as:
"I do not consider them unsaved."
Do they not teach this in NZ schools?
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 10, 2011 9:16:46 GMT -5
In the end it comes down to blaming people, if you are blaming a system you by default are blaming people, especially in a fellowship with so little carnal structure. The interesting part about that statement is that I think that the truth fellowship has a much more 'carnal' structure than many churches which are much larger. I believe this because with the lack of a 'visible' structure, it takes much more of an 'invisible' structure to run it. For example, in most churches free will offerings are made openly in the church, the money is counted, placed in a bank account and from there distributed with the needs of the church (and the instructions from the one donating the money) are met. In the fellowship, money is handed 'secretly' to any number of workers, who decide on an individual basis how they will use that money. Likewise there are many trust accounts scattered around without any centralized system for administering thm. For passing on information within most churches, information comes down from the 'headquarters', and along with local information that information is shared with the local church. In the truth fellowship information is from individual overseers passed down to the workers in their field who may (or may not) share that information with people on an individual basis. More time and people involved. I have long thought that the 'lack of structure' within the fellowship actually leads to MORE 'carnal' involvement by the workers and friends. Just my opinion of course, so feel free to slam my face in the porridge over it..... (I prefer that you use mush as that is what I liked at convention.....) ;D Scott 
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Post by Jesse_Lackman on Aug 10, 2011 9:26:43 GMT -5
Must be nice to define things the way you want so they fit into your worldview. That's what I see happening, subjective definitations being used as justification. Doing that can very easily commit the fallacy of too few alternatives. Other alternatives or possibilities cannot be allowed because they change everything and then will not support the justification. What about those of us who think for ourselves? Is that a possibility? Are you going to tell me I have no control over what I think, that "the system" has me helplessly in it's fierce grip? Some say that, that we're in denial, that we have our heads in the sand, that we haven't received "the revelation". Will you say that too? If so who are you to judge that? If the F&W are saved as Cherie says, does it matter? If so why?  |
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 10, 2011 9:47:11 GMT -5
Must be nice to define things the way you want so they fit into your worldview. That's what I see happening, subjective definitations being used as justification. Doing that can very easily commit the fallacy of too few alternatives. Other alternatives or possibilities cannot be allowed because they change everything and then will not support the justification. What about those of us who think for ourselves? Is that a possibility? Are you going to tell me I have no control over what I think, that "the system" has me helplessly in it's fierce grip? Some say that, that we're in denial, that we have our heads in the sand, that we haven't received "the revelation". Will you say that too? If so who are you to judge that? If the F&W are saved as Cherie says, does it matter? If so why? Was this directed at me? I told you I wanted mush you dork!!  If that was directed at me, I was simply giving you my thoughts on the 'carnal' side of your church. I don't think you want me to mention a bunch of other stuff I think along those lines......  SOME of those in your church do have their head in the sand Jesse. I've seen it, and we have read about some of it here on the board in peoples own words. Yep, you think for yourself, and because you do you tend to want to 'broad brush' the rest of the people in your church as also being/acting the same as you and your family. My family likewise was similar to yours. However, I knew many kids in my age group that were not allowed to just be kids with the rest of the kids outside of the truth fellowship. That's a fact, and there were enough of them that I would have to say that it could be (in part) because of the teachings of the church, and it can't all be laid at the parents feet. Too often I heard statements along the line of "because the workers said we can't". That's a fact, and not just opinion. Sure..... it IS up to the parents to hear what the workers are saying and then use discernment in tossing out all the crap that shouldn't be something the workers have a say in. Unfortunately many parents just took it all in and made poor decisions in regard to their kids...... Scott |
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Post by sherbear on Aug 10, 2011 10:00:36 GMT -5
Must be nice to define things the way you want so they fit into your worldview. That's what I see happening, subjective definitations being used as justification. Doing that can very easily commit the fallacy of too few alternatives. Other alternatives or possibilities cannot be allowed because they change everything and then will not support the justification. What about those of us who think for ourselves? Is that a possibility? Are you going to tell me I have no control over what I think, that "the system" has me helplessly in it's fierce grip? Some say that, that we're in denial, that we have our heads in the sand, that we haven't received "the revelation". Will you say that too? If so who are you to judge that? If the F&W are saved as Cherie says, does it matter? If so why? Was this directed at me? I told you I wanted mush you dork!! If that was directed at me, I was simply giving you my thoughts on the 'carnal' side of your church. I don't think you want me to mention a bunch of other stuff I think along those lines...... SOME of those in your church do have their head in the sand Jesse. I've seen it, and we have read about some of it here on the board in peoples own words. Yep, you think for yourself, and because you do you tend to want to 'broad brush' the rest of the people in your church as also being/acting the same as you and your family. My family likewise was similar to yours. However, I knew many kids in my age group that were not allowed to just be kids with the rest of the kids outside of the truth fellowship. That's a fact, and there were enough of them that I would have to say that it could be (in part) because of the teachings of the church, and it can't all be laid at the parents feet. Too often I heard statements along the line of "because the workers said we can't". That's a fact, and not just opinion. Sure..... it IS up to the parents to hear what the workers are saying and then use discernment in tossing out all the crap that shouldn't be something the workers have a say in. Unfortunately many parents just took it all in and made poor decisions in regard to their kids...... Scott Actually Scott...he may have been responding to my post. |
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Post by imnx2 on Aug 10, 2011 13:34:44 GMT -5
In the end it comes down to blaming people, if you are blaming a system you by default are blaming people, especially in a fellowship with so little carnal structure. The interesting part about that statement is that I think that the truth fellowship has a much more 'carnal' structure than many churches which are much larger. I believe this because with the lack of a 'visible' structure, it takes much more of an 'invisible' structure to run it. For example, in most churches free will offerings are made openly in the church, the money is counted, placed in a bank account and from there distributed with the needs of the church (and the instructions from the one donating the money) are met. In the fellowship, money is handed 'secretly' to any number of workers, who decide on an individual basis how they will use that money. Likewise there are many trust accounts scattered around without any centralized system for administering thm. For passing on information within most churches, information comes down from the 'headquarters', and along with local information that information is shared with the local church. In the truth fellowship information is from individual overseers passed down to the workers in their field who may (or may not) share that information with people on an individual basis. More time and people involved. I have long thought that the 'lack of structure' within the fellowship actually leads to MORE 'carnal' involvement by the workers and friends. Just my opinion of course, so feel free to slam my face in the porridge over it..... (I prefer that you use mush as that is what I liked at convention.....) ;D Scott The church is quite carnal and perhaps that is the 'godly contentment and conviction' some have. There is appeal to the flesh. There are those that want the church to be 'spiritual'. They want to believe or at least promote that 'the spirit' (a definite he in the NT, but sometimes/often an it among the F&W) is in control. My first indicator of this was at convention. I asked how it happens. A worker indicated bascially a spiritual wonder. 'We have no church roles." Really? Then what about the little blue book listing all the families with indicators of professing and baptised or not and those not professing? "We take no name." Really? Oh, you assume a name. "We have no earthly founder." Enough on that. "We have no rules, just the work of the Holy Spirit in people's lives that are common to all in the fellowship." Yeah, right (sarcasm). "A distinction without a difference". |
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Post by quizzer on Aug 10, 2011 17:17:02 GMT -5
You consider members of our fellowship to be Christians. Do you consider that they are saved? Great stuff, noels. Why not start a thread on TMB with these questions? |
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Post by KST on Aug 10, 2011 19:11:46 GMT -5
CherieKropp wrote:
On the other hand, I understand that many/most? of the F&W do not know or consider themselves saved; and instead in their uncertainty, they express a "hope" that they will inherit eternal life, and they themselves do not know in this lifetime if/that they are saved. This is sad to me.
This view of how F&W members view salvation is also what I understand. In the mid-1970s, I asked several acquaintances at one convention if they had “any fear of what comes after death.” Almost without exception, the response was something like “I hope I can prove worthy at the end…” (The exceptions were worded somewhat differently, but with similar meaning.) Not once did anyone answer, "No!"
As recently as about one year ago I heard an overseer at a funeral speak about the “hope we have in Jesus."
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 20:53:56 GMT -5
I am so glad that in the eventide of my life I have found TLC. Every day I spend time there and it brings great peace and comfort to me. Sadly I do not enjoy the same experience on TMB.
I do not blame the people who post there, but rather the man made belief system originated by William Irvine. Of course there are thousands of similar belief systems that have been developed by man since time began. It is built on the thoughts and ideas of a single person, or group of people, and when you sit down and analyse the belief system it has little substance. Usually the result of someones thought process, based on mythology and containing little fact.
Unfortunately people get drawn in and held captive and become willing slaves to the founder.
If you get sucked in it is very difficult to escape, it becomes a black hole. Because the belief system controls your mind, it does not allow you to use the mind the way God intended. Many I know are not happy in that black hole, and have to take antidepressants to keep them going. Not a good way to live. TLC is the only antidepressant I use. There is a way of escape from the black hole as some of us have found. We would encourage those who are not happy in the system, to take the step we have taken, and find peace and joy in their lives as God intended.
TLC is not a belief system, but a place where people with different beliefs can have fellowship together without argument or ill feeling.
Why is this so???.
Because they have found God, and God controls their thoughts. No longer do they adhere to a man made belief system.
Come join us, you won't regret it.
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Post by CherieKropp on Aug 10, 2011 21:12:54 GMT -5
Thanks redback! Actually, we've been getting quite a few new applicants lately - and I wouldnt be surprised if it isn't due to this thread...
FYI to those new applicants who are applying to TLC:
Applications are not processed immediately. So be patient. Log back into TLC 2-3 days after applying and watch for a PM containing a questionnaire. Complete it and wait until you are notified that you have been accepted.
Cherie Kropp
TLC Forum Concierge
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Post by eyedeetentee on Aug 10, 2011 22:09:28 GMT -5
To those of you who are new around here or are recently considering going to The Lesser Channel (or whatever it's supposed to mean), there are a few other views about the alleged safe haven. You might consider thorough research before wandering into unknown territory. There are places one can go.
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Post by Scott Ross on Aug 10, 2011 22:20:18 GMT -5
Thanks redback! Actually, we've been getting quite a few new applicants lately - and I wouldnt be surprised if it isn't due to this thread... FYI to those new applicants who are applying to TLC: Applications are not processed immediately. So be patient. Log back into TLC 2-3 days after applying and watch for a PM containing a questionnaire. Complete it and wait until you are notified that you have been accepted. Cherie Kropp TLC Forum Concierge This thread has been getting quite a bit of attention, so I figure I would move it to the main board so it can get more exposure. Perhaps there will be more people that might wish to register on the TLC if it gets more notice on the main board. I'll return the thread to this area once interest in posting to it slows down. Scott |
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Post by greatfull2010 on Aug 10, 2011 22:33:23 GMT -5
Hi noels and crew
One thing Ive learnt is that there are so many varying beliefs in the 2x2's and the question of salvation and how to obtain it isnt clear.
My mother had bowel cancer last year and had a foot of her bowel removed. Her serenity and comfort when facing possible death was awesome to witness. She hasnt got the all clear yet and may not receive that but she displays a trust in the Lord.
On the other hand Ive spoken to many 2x2 ers of various ages who are afraid that they will fall short of the mark. They are trying to work into their lives more goodness to be more like Jesus and they fear they wont make it. To me thats real sad as they have discounted the almighty power of Christs blood.
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A little kindness and respect goes a long ways in creating a healthy atmosphere to come together and discuss things openly. There is no need to brow-beat anyone for disagreeing with your perspective, as that's what forums are all about ~ sharing our different opinions and maybe coming together sometimes on a concensus?
