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Post by Learning Patience on Oct 13, 2010 9:56:22 GMT -5
Hi Linford, that is a great quote. I assume that you are bringing this up in response to a few workers being guilty of CSA. Your message is what I have been trying to get out as well- if we put the workers on a pedestal and begin to think that they are faultless, blameless, and beyond reproach and beyond questioning- offenses will come. There is another saying: "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." And as someone has mentioned, part of the issue is that so many people feel powerless when trying to get a worker to admit that they have made a mistake. It is OK to question a worker- about anything that they are teaching. It behooves us to question them- we all need to understand what we are being taught- and questions are a normal and INTEGRAL part of learning. A good college professor doesn't feel "threatened" when his/her students ask questions. Questions should be encouraged not shied away from. Especially in regards to the truth- because the truth doesn't fear questions- questions give truth even more chances to reveal itself. OTOH falseness does fear questions. Exactly. |
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Post by emy on Oct 13, 2010 16:42:37 GMT -5
... A good college professor doesn't feel "threatened" when his/her students ask questions. Questions should be encouraged not shied away from. Especially in regards to the truth- because the truth doesn't fear questions- questions give truth even more chances to reveal itself. What you say is true, but a student who questions the PROFESSOR only learns as much as the professor knows. The student who seeks out sources for himself has a broader base of knowledge. Thus our opportunity to seek answers from the Source and correlate them to the Text, the Bible. |
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Post by ts on Oct 13, 2010 17:40:55 GMT -5
LP. You remind me of the man who questioned Jesus. "...And he, willing to justify himself, said..." Why worry about what others think? Why compare yourself among others? Just serve God. Let Him take care of the rest.
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Post by DumSpiroSpero on Oct 13, 2010 18:15:35 GMT -5
I don't believe problems within the fellowship and especially the workership should be allowed to grow unchecked to the point the authorities need be be called in. However, it is apparent that those in control feel otherwise. I respect that, but it does cause me to wonder, more than a little! Hi Ron, my view on CSA is pretty hardline. CSA is not a problem that should have its growth checked. CSA is CRIME, and should be reported to and dealt with by the authorities as soon as it is dertected. Yes there is an element of SIN in CSA, and it is appropriate that the church should deal with SIN, but the church has no commission or authority to deal with CRIME apart from reporting it to the appropriate agency. There is nothing about the CRIME aspect of CSA that the workers should be involved in adjudicating on. There must be NO DOUBT or HESITATION in reporting CSA to and cooperating with the authorities. Anything less than full disclosure is concealment and enabling the offenders to continue offending. I will not resile from this position. |
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Post by ts on Oct 13, 2010 18:28:48 GMT -5
I don't believe problems within the fellowship and especially the workership should be allowed to grow unchecked to the point the authorities need be be called in. However, it is apparent that those in control feel otherwise. I respect that, but it does cause me to wonder, more than a little! Hi Ron, my view on CSA is pretty hardline. CSA is not a problem that should have its growth checked. CSA is CRIME, and should be reported to and dealt with by the authorities as soon as it is dertected. Yes there is an element of SIN in CSA, and it is appropriate that the church should deal with SIN, but the church has no commission or authority to deal with CRIME apart from reporting it to the appropriate agency. There is nothing about the CRIME aspect of CSA that the workers should be involved in adjudicating on. There must be NO DOUBT or HESITATION in reporting CSA to and cooperating with the authorities. Anything less than full disclosure is concealment and enabling the offenders to continue offending. I will not resile from this position. No one disagrees with that. The workers have done all within their power and understanding to take care of CSA when they know about it. Yes, there have been mistakes. The workers aren't perfect. All religions have problems with CSA. It is not a spiritual issue. It is a human issue. There is a certain element that is trying to capitalize on CSA and using it to say that the workers who are guilty of CSA have spiritual problems and are incapable of being messengers of the gospel while CSA perps. I think we have seen that these guys have been very helpful to the friends and workers even with CSA in their past. It is because of the smear campaigns against them that removed them from their helpful positions. Some of these men, though unconvicted, have been gracious enough to step down from their positions for the the sake of having peace in the kingdom. Were it not for people causing problems with their "whisper campaigns" these workers could still be in useful service to the kingdom. |
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Post by Learning Patience on Oct 13, 2010 18:32:29 GMT -5
LP. You remind me of the man who questioned Jesus. "...And he, willing to justify himself, said..." Why worry about what others think? Why compare yourself among others? Just serve God. Let Him take care of the rest. And what is it again that I remind you of the man who questioned Jesus while willing to justify himself? |
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Post by Learning Patience on Oct 13, 2010 18:40:49 GMT -5
There is a certain element that is trying to capitalize on CSA and using it to say that the workers who are guilty of CSA have spiritual problems and are incapable of being messengers of the gospel while CSA perps. I think we have seen that these guys have been very helpful to the friends and workers even with CSA in their past. It is because of the smear campaigns against them that removed them from their helpful positions. Were it not for people causing problems with their "whisper campaigns" these workers could still be in useful service to the kingdom. What is a little law breaking among friends, eh, TS?? It's just child molestation. Let bygones be bygones??   |
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Post by ts on Oct 13, 2010 18:43:16 GMT -5
LP. You remind me of the man who questioned Jesus. "...And he, willing to justify himself, said..." Why worry about what others think? Why compare yourself among others? Just serve God. Let Him take care of the rest. And what is it again that I remind you of the man who questioned Jesus while willing to justify himself? It seems that you think that your overseer is treating others better than you. I can understand how the workers do not want to answer your questions. You are saying that they are mistreating you. Perhaps they do not even know what you are talking about and in your condition you are not receptive to any explanation. So, naturally you would want to further question and justify yourself. Just like the man who felt condemned by Jesus' words. He tried to wriggle out of it. He tried to justify himself. That isn't the way things work, LP. If you could sit in the atmosphere of the Lord's presence in gospel meetings, you could get more clarity from the Holy Spirit. You aren't going to get clarity on the TMB or by human reasoning. |
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Post by ronhall on Oct 13, 2010 20:03:21 GMT -5
Hi Ron, my view on CSA is pretty hardline. CSA is not a problem that should have its growth checked. CSA is CRIME, and should be reported to and dealt with by the authorities as soon as it is dertected. Yes there is an element of SIN in CSA, and it is appropriate that the church should deal with SIN, but the church has no commission or authority to deal with CRIME apart from reporting it to the appropriate agency. There is nothing about the CRIME aspect of CSA that the workers should be involved in adjudicating on. There must be NO DOUBT or HESITATION in reporting CSA to and cooperating with the authorities. Anything less than full disclosure is concealment and enabling the offenders to continue offending. I will not resile from this position. No one disagrees with that. The workers have done all within their power and understanding to take care of CSA when they know about it. Yes, there have been mistakes. The workers aren't perfect. All religions have problems with CSA. It is not a spiritual issue. It is a human issue. There is a certain element that is trying to capitalize on CSA and using it to say that the workers who are guilty of CSA have spiritual problems and are incapable of being messengers of the gospel while CSA perps. I think we have seen that these guys have been very helpful to the friends and workers even with CSA in their past. It is because of the smear campaigns against them that removed them from their helpful positions. Some of these men, though unconvicted, have been gracious enough to step down from their positions for the the sake of having peace in the kingdom. Were it not for people causing problems with their "whisper campaigns" these workers could still be in useful service to the kingdom. I am not convinced ts. These guys are wolves in sheeps clothing. They were never helpful and disgraced their positions. They were never gracious enough to step down, they were strongholds that had to be forced out. Those who brought it to light had to risk their necks by shouting it on the housetops. Many were not believed and were excommunicated in the process. Whispering had no effect. Those workers of iniquity never performed any useful service to the kingdom. Get real ts, you and your worker brother-in-law! |
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Post by Gene on Oct 13, 2010 20:06:27 GMT -5
ts, I love your portrayal of truth-speak. But I think you're confusing a few people who think you actually subscribe to what you write!
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Post by liberated on Oct 13, 2010 20:13:19 GMT -5
FWIW, I have a number of professing friends in Victoria who tell me that the culture in Victoria is the most repressive and backward of anywhere in Australia. I personally encountered a very backward and dangerous approach to CSA in Victoria. I still can't believe that workers there would place known CSA offender in a fellowship meeting with small children.......unreal. And to the defenders of the system: no this is not rumour, it is not hearsay, this is my first hand experience from all the parents involved and the meeting itself. We have also been made aware recently that we had fellowship in the late 80's with an ex worker who is now a convicted CSA offender. He came to the fellowship after relocating from another State. We can only assume that this was known within the other State prior to him relocating and if so as a duty of care should not all members of this fellowship been advised . We would certainly not have refused fellowship with this person however would have been much more diligent with the care of our young children. |
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Post by DumSpiroSpero on Oct 13, 2010 20:38:14 GMT -5
FWIW, I have a number of professing friends in Victoria who tell me that the culture in Victoria is the most repressive and backward of anywhere in Australia. I personally encountered a very backward and dangerous approach to CSA in Victoria. I still can't believe that workers there would place known CSA offender in a fellowship meeting with small children.......unreal. And to the defenders of the system: no this is not rumour, it is not hearsay, this is my first hand experience from all the parents involved and the meeting itself. We have also been made aware recently that we had fellowship in the late 80's with an ex worker who is now a convicted CSA offender. He came to the fellowship after relocating from another State. We can only assume that this was known within the other State prior to him relocating and if so as a duty of care should not all members of this fellowship been advised . We would certainly not have refused fellowship with this person however would have been much more diligent with the care of our young children. So, whilst I understand your position in not refusing fellowship (I too am a Christian and believe that we should show mercy and compassion, as Christ would have) do you think it was 'the right thing to do' in moving the offender to an area where his CRIMES were not known, or should the matter have been reported to the authorities? |
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 13, 2010 20:58:49 GMT -5
Yep..... It makes more sense now....  and I'll delete my post..... |
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Post by liberated on Oct 13, 2010 21:13:37 GMT -5
Hi Ron, my view on CSA is pretty hardline. CSA is not a problem that should have its growth checked. CSA is CRIME, and should be reported to and dealt with by the authorities as soon as it is dertected. Yes there is an element of SIN in CSA, and it is appropriate that the church should deal with SIN, but the church has no commission or authority to deal with CRIME apart from reporting it to the appropriate agency. There is nothing about the CRIME aspect of CSA that the workers should be involved in adjudicating on. There must be NO DOUBT or HESITATION in reporting CSA to and cooperating with the authorities. Anything less than full disclosure is concealment and enabling the offenders to continue offending. I will not resile from this position. No one disagrees with that. The workers have done all within their power and understanding to take care of CSA when they know about it. Yes, there have been mistakes. The workers aren't perfect. All religions have problems with CSA. It is not a spiritual issue. It is a human issue. There is a certain element that is trying to capitalize on CSA and using it to say that the workers who are guilty of CSA have spiritual problems and are incapable of being messengers of the gospel while CSA perps. I think we have seen that these guys have been very helpful to the friends and workers even with CSA in their past. It is because of the smear campaigns against them that removed them from their helpful positions. Some of these men, though unconvicted, have been gracious enough to step down from their positions for the the sake of having peace in the kingdom. Were it not for people causing problems with their "whisper campaigns" these workers could still be in useful service to the kingdom. I am hoping that I have misunderstood this or you are not being serious - are you saying that a known worker with CSA in their past, provided that they are helpful/useful, all is OK for them to continue to preach and be useful. Could God bless such a ministry? Would the same also apply to any other crimes committed by workers as well, provided they are helpful/useful? I am hoping that you can confirm that I have totally misread all of this. |
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Post by ts on Oct 13, 2010 21:22:24 GMT -5
No one disagrees with that. The workers have done all within their power and understanding to take care of CSA when they know about it. Yes, there have been mistakes. The workers aren't perfect. All religions have problems with CSA. It is not a spiritual issue. It is a human issue. There is a certain element that is trying to capitalize on CSA and using it to say that the workers who are guilty of CSA have spiritual problems and are incapable of being messengers of the gospel while CSA perps. I think we have seen that these guys have been very helpful to the friends and workers even with CSA in their past. It is because of the smear campaigns against them that removed them from their helpful positions. Some of these men, though unconvicted, have been gracious enough to step down from their positions for the the sake of having peace in the kingdom. Were it not for people causing problems with their "whisper campaigns" these workers could still be in useful service to the kingdom. I am not convinced ts. These guys are wolves in sheeps clothing. They were never helpful and disgraced their positions. They were never gracious enough to step down, they were strongholds that had to be forced out. Those who brought it to light had to risk their necks by shouting it on the housetops. Many were not believed and were excommunicated in the process. Whispering had no effect. Those workers of iniquity never performed any useful service to the kingdom. Get real ts, you and your worker brother-in-law! Ronhall, you do not have respect for the authority of the workers. "We very much appreciate Ira's guidance and help in every way the past 10 years in Texas. He has sought the Lord diligently and faithfully for your care. I have appreciated his help this year in getting me adjusted to the responsibilities here in Texas. The things that we have felt needful to discuss here is in no way to take away from all the good that Ira has done..." - Ray Hoffman CSA does not detract from the spiritual good that a person can do for the kingdom. The workers who are in authority over us are there not by their own choice or devices. If they were wolves in sheep's clothing, the other overseers would have picked up on it. Ray Hoffman would not have said how helpful he has been over the ten years in TX. The other overseers would not have approved of him being an overseer if he were a wolf in sheep's clothing. Ira is a man and men make mistakes. Everyone has made a bigger mess of the whole issue by spreading rumors and gossip. Just goes to show when people with an agenda step in and pretend they are doing God's work better than He can. Ray Hoffman and others over the years have handled the CSA offenders with love and care and compassion. There is a lesson in that for all. |
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Post by Admin on Oct 13, 2010 21:28:50 GMT -5
The workers have done all within their power and understanding to take care of CSA when they know about it. Yes, there have been mistakes. The workers aren't perfect. All religions have problems with CSA. It is not a spiritual issue. It is a human issue. There is a certain element that is trying to capitalize on CSA and using it to say that the workers who are guilty of CSA have spiritual problems and are incapable of being messengers of the gospel while CSA perps. I think we have seen that these guys have been very helpful to the friends and workers even with CSA in their past. It is because of the smear campaigns against them that removed them from their helpful positions. Some of these men, though unconvicted, have been gracious enough to step down from their positions for the the sake of having peace in the kingdom. Were it not for people causing problems with their "whisper campaigns" these workers could still be in useful service to the kingdom. The view expressed here will be abhorrent to most people. Is it not offensive to suggest that a worker who has committed acts of CSA can continue preaching the gospel of Christ? "There is a certain element that is trying to capitalize on CSA" is a highly offensive statement to brave victims and parents of young children who have taken a stand against this evil in the F&W ministry. |
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Post by ts on Oct 13, 2010 21:33:58 GMT -5
The workers have done all within their power and understanding to take care of CSA when they know about it. Yes, there have been mistakes. The workers aren't perfect. All religions have problems with CSA. It is not a spiritual issue. It is a human issue. There is a certain element that is trying to capitalize on CSA and using it to say that the workers who are guilty of CSA have spiritual problems and are incapable of being messengers of the gospel while CSA perps. I think we have seen that these guys have been very helpful to the friends and workers even with CSA in their past. It is because of the smear campaigns against them that removed them from their helpful positions. Some of these men, though unconvicted, have been gracious enough to step down from their positions for the the sake of having peace in the kingdom. Were it not for people causing problems with their "whisper campaigns" these workers could still be in useful service to the kingdom. The view expressed here will be abhorrent to most people. Is it not offensive to suggest that a worker who has committed acts of CSA can continue preaching the gospel of Christ? "There is a certain element that is trying to capitalize on CSA" is a highly offensive statement to brave victims and parents of young children who have taken a stand against this evil in the F&W ministry. I quoted Ray Hoffman and his view of Ira's helpfulness and care for people's souls even as a longstanding CSA perpetrator and overseer. I am also stating a view that CSA, though not good, is being used as propaganda by people who hate the truth. |
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Post by DumSpiroSpero on Oct 13, 2010 21:38:10 GMT -5
The view expressed here will be abhorrent to most people. Is it not offensive to suggest that a worker who has committed acts of CSA can continue preaching the gospel of Christ? "There is a certain element that is trying to capitalize on CSA" is a highly offensive statement to brave victims and parents of young children who have taken a stand against this evil in the F&W ministry. I quoted Ray Hoffman and his view of Ira's helpfulness and care for people's souls even as a longstanding CSA perpetrator and overseer. I am also stating a view that CSA, though not good, is being used as propaganda by people who hate the truth. So, ts, what do you think the view is on identified CSA offenders? Should they be reported to the authorities so that their crimes can be dealt with by the Law and criminal justice system, or should they be counselled within the faith and the matter dealt with subtly and quietly? |
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Post by ts on Oct 13, 2010 21:45:46 GMT -5
I quoted Ray Hoffman and his view of Ira's helpfulness and care for people's souls even as a longstanding CSA perpetrator and overseer. I am also stating a view that CSA, though not good, is being used as propaganda by people who hate the truth. So, ts, what do you think the view is on identified CSA offenders? Should they be reported to the authorities so that their crimes can be dealt with by the Law and criminal justice system, or should they be counselled within the faith and the matter dealt with subtly and quietly? Let the law deal with CSA. We are subject to the laws of the land. There doesn't have to be a big fanfare about it all, though. Not this agenda of bringing down the truth because of a few who are guilty. A lot of innocent people are suffering and perhaps even leaving the fellowship because a bigger deal is being made over a few guilty workers. The workers have done a marvelous job in keeping the crimes in perspective and dealing with the guilty individuals in kindness and love. |
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Post by kiwi on Oct 13, 2010 21:47:55 GMT -5
What proactive measures do you suggest? Great question kiwi! This should be the beginning of a new thread. Allow me ask you a question first before I point out some of the proactive measures which have been suggested on this forum: Do you acknowledge that there is a CSA problem within the F&W fellowship for which proactive measures are necessary? I acknowledge there is a problem with those have taken their eyes off The Master and have let their human nature to rule their feelings but generally I don't agree there is a problem. |
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Post by open mind on Oct 13, 2010 21:47:56 GMT -5
The view expressed here will be abhorrent to most people. Is it not offensive to suggest that a worker who has committed acts of CSA can continue preaching the gospel of Christ? "There is a certain element that is trying to capitalize on CSA" is a highly offensive statement to brave victims and parents of young children who have taken a stand against this evil in the F&W ministry. I quoted Ray Hoffman and his view of Ira's helpfulness and care for people's souls even as a longstanding CSA perpetrator and overseer. I am also stating a view that CSA, though not good, is being used as propaganda by people who hate the truth. I am still baffled by your change of heart TS considering the following you have written previously.. The workers are hurting people with their lies. Perhaps all are not abusive or child molesters. That might only be a few. But for years in the past even into the present there are liars, womanizers and child molesters among the workers. Did you see the light on your way to Damascus? |
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Post by DumSpiroSpero on Oct 13, 2010 21:49:49 GMT -5
I quoted Ray Hoffman and his view of Ira's helpfulness and care for people's souls even as a longstanding CSA perpetrator and overseer. I am also stating a view that CSA, though not good, is being used as propaganda by people who hate the truth. I am still baffled by your change of heart TS considering the following you have written previously.. The workers are hurting people with their lies. Perhaps all are not abusive or child molesters. That might only be a few. But for years in the past even into the present there are liars, womanizers and child molesters among the workers. Did you see the light on your way to Damascus? He's been drinking red koolaid (or is it the grape koolaid) |
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Post by liberated on Oct 13, 2010 21:57:15 GMT -5
So, ts, what do you think the view is on identified CSA offenders? Should they be reported to the authorities so that their crimes can be dealt with by the Law and criminal justice system, or should they be counselled within the faith and the matter dealt with subtly and quietly? Let the law deal with CSA. We are subject to the laws of the land. There doesn't have to be a big fanfare about it all, though. Not his agenda of bringing down the truth because of a few who are guilty. A lot of innocent people are suffering and perhaps even leaving the fellowship because a bigger deal is being made over a few guilty workers. The workers have done a marvelous job in keeping the crimes in perspective and dealing with the guilty individuals in kindness and love. Does "a marvelous job" include moving offenders from one area to another for them to re-offend in a new area with no knowledge or warning being given to the new area. Whilst most people who take a stand on the evil of CSA will find your comments offensive there is also the other concern about the cover ups - hardly a marvelous job in keeping the crimes in perspective and protecting the innocent. |
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Post by open mind on Oct 13, 2010 22:03:21 GMT -5
Ronhall, you do not have respect for the authority of the workers. Well, I definitely do not give the workers, any of the leaders, anyway, credit for having the spirit of a child. |
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Post by open mind on Oct 13, 2010 22:06:41 GMT -5
I am still baffled by your change of heart TS considering the following you have written previously.. Did you see the light on your way to Damascus? He's been drinking red koolaid (or is it the grape koolaid) He's been drinking something red anyay... |
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Post by mod5 on Oct 13, 2010 23:56:25 GMT -5
ts I realise that your are playing games and that you have an agenda with your recent posts, but he whole thing has gone too far.
Your posts are offensive to victims of CSA who may be reading them, so I ask you to "get off the turps" and refrain from this line of posting.
Thanks
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Post by ts on Oct 14, 2010 0:10:58 GMT -5
"We very much appreciate Ira's guidance and help in every way the past 10 years in Texas. He has sought the Lord diligently and faithfully for your care. I have appreciated his help this year in getting me adjusted to the responsibilities here in Texas. The things that we have felt needful to discuss here is in no way to take away from all the good that Ira has done..." - Ray Hoffman
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Post by ts on Oct 14, 2010 1:02:29 GMT -5
I do not condone CSA in any way. It is abhorrent and should never exist. Especially in the one and only true ministry on the earth.
I am not the first to post that CSA is being used in an agenda to put down the workers and friends.
I am only repeating Ray Hoffman's gratitude for Ira's helpfulness. Does that helpfulness come from a godly spirit or a wrong spirit? Can Ira's care come from ungodliness?
Why is this, all of the sudden, a taboo subject?
Of course a worker remaining in the work after being convicted of CSA is wrong and should not be allowed. So, does Ira's offense take away from any of the good he did? Does Ray's comment take away from his own credibility? Or do we trust the authority of the workers and support them in their words and decisions? The workers are there to care for our souls. They do have authority. Whether they are right or wrong, make mistakes or not, they have to answer to God. Our responsibility is to just obey and submit.
The workers used to say, "keep CSA secret" and that is what we trusted was best. Now they don't and we trust that is best. Right now they say, "keep sexual affairs secret" and that is what we will do. If they want to move the promiscuous or flirtatious workers around or make them overseers, that is not anyone's business. Whatever they decide, you can guarantee that there will be someone with a bad spirit who will get angry at them.
If they want to tell us how to raise our children, we would do well to submit to that. They would not be in their place of authority without good reason. They would not have such support of so many overseers, workers and friends if there wasn't something to their wisdom.
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and I'll delete my post.....
