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Post by sharonw on Oct 12, 2010 19:40:10 GMT -5
As someone who lives in the Vic/Tas region, as much as it pains me to say it, this is the plea that is coming from some of the friends and workers here. It is a plea for help for the good of the kingdom. Plea for help or posturing? Ronhall's plea for not shooting the messenger has fallen on your deaf ears, Lin...IF you do not choose to post true statements here that can refute the information that an Aussie is reporting and Scott and Clearday have posted....it would serve the honest people better for you to cease and desist! I cannot believe that you're so hardened against the CSA victims and their efforts to be brave enough to do what should have been done many years ago. but perhaps you're just an example of what is in the workership....it really isn't very neighborly of you to keep trying to shoot doubts into their issues at all. It hurts the ones who are already hurting and have been hurting for years. Can you not see that?
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Post by emy on Oct 12, 2010 19:53:01 GMT -5
I agree, great post ronhall. My only concern is that while the tide may have turned somewhat, early indications is that the bare minimum will be done and what will be done will be to protect the workers from false accusation and legal jeopardy from not reporting. The end result may be a greater false sense of security than ever. and from Sharon: So their judicial system is inadequate? If the very strong hierarchy I hear about here is in action, I suppose the overseer problem will be resolved very soon.
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Post by sharonw on Oct 12, 2010 20:04:14 GMT -5
I agree, great post ronhall. My only concern is that while the tide may have turned somewhat, early indications is that the bare minimum will be done and what will be done will be to protect the workers from false accusation and legal jeopardy from not reporting. The end result may be a greater false sense of security than ever. and from Sharon: So their judicial system is inadequate? If the very strong hierarchy I hear about here is in action, I suppose the overseer problem will be resolved very soon. The hierarchy is perhaps just not able after having had a stroke...we're talking about serious handicaps likely.....with the suspects being of the mature workership, what does that leave? It would be hard for any of them to have to stand up against a peer! It would be very nervewracking.....that is just plain evident in the fact that workers have NEVER before these past couple of years even stood up to do what should have been done...they just cannot do it against one of their peers. And my comment has nothing to do with the judicial system , Emy and I think you know it. It has to do with neighborly love and compassion....seems that is coming in short supply lately!
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Post by emy on Oct 12, 2010 20:14:35 GMT -5
and from Sharon: So their judicial system is inadequate? If the very strong hierarchy I hear about here is in action, I suppose the overseer problem will be resolved very soon. The hierarchy is perhaps just not able after having had a stroke...we're talking about serious handicaps likely.....with the suspects being of the mature workership, what does that leave? It would be hard for any of them to have to stand up against a peer! It would be very nervewracking.....that is just plain evident in the fact that workers have NEVER before these past couple of years even stood up to do what should have been done...they just cannot do it against one of their peers. And my comment has nothing to do with the judicial system , Emy and I think you know it. It has to do with neighborly love and compassion....seems that is coming in short supply lately! But the disabled overseer is not at the top of the hierarchy, is he? These things reportedly are handled by a small group of "world leaders." My comment about the judicial system was directed more toward CD.
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Post by sharonw on Oct 12, 2010 20:18:12 GMT -5
The hierarchy is perhaps just not able after having had a stroke...we're talking about serious handicaps likely.....with the suspects being of the mature workership, what does that leave? It would be hard for any of them to have to stand up against a peer! It would be very nervewracking.....that is just plain evident in the fact that workers have NEVER before these past couple of years even stood up to do what should have been done...they just cannot do it against one of their peers. And my comment has nothing to do with the judicial system , Emy and I think you know it. It has to do with neighborly love and compassion....seems that is coming in short supply lately! But the disabled overseer is not at the top of the hierarchy, is he? These things reportedly are handled by a small group of "world leaders." My comment about the judicial system was directed more toward CD. It was stated in another posting that the stricken overseer was much of a lone ranger type of overseer...had no backup learning how to pull the ropes etc. And add 4 workers out plus one who quit....they have to be hurting down there and I'm talking about the workers there as well as the victims and significant others. It really pulls on my heart strings, for I know the horrible feelings some of the folks got when the MI debacle was in full swing, it wasn't easy for any of them.
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Post by pinky on Oct 12, 2010 20:43:30 GMT -5
"are desperate for .. help" 'tarnished by the culture " "are crying out for fresh hope" "overseer to follow the servant example of Christ" "clean sweep is needed." "concerned about the church" Actually, senior Workers retire all the time. Some die on the job. I think this is a tad overblown. Bert, regarding: overblown. You wouldn't know what overblown was if it hit you between the eyes! You are the King of extreme and often baseless typecasting of non or former F&W's. Apparently we are all a bunch of Two and a Half Men watching, menage a trios participating heretics.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Oct 12, 2010 20:45:38 GMT -5
I get accused of shooting the messenger. I'm afraid the messenger shoots himself in the foot. The first we heard of this story was a worker had been accused of csa. There was going to be a letter going out asking for more to come forth and accuse this worker before he even was charged. he then confessed. Then there was going to be the big union meeting,never happened. Then once again a letter was going to come out,still no letter. At least from the info I receive. Now there is the hard to believe story that there are no workers to take over as overseer and they are going outside the company looking for applicants. Even if there wasn't we read here that overseers are evil. My feelings---- There is no messenger.
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Post by open mind on Oct 12, 2010 20:48:15 GMT -5
I get accused of shooting the messenger. I'm afraid the messenger shoots himself in the foot. The first we heard of this story was a worker had been accused of csa. There was going to be a letter going out asking for more to come forth and accuse this worker before he even was charged. he then confessed. Then there was going to be the big union meeting,never happened. Then once again a letter was going to come out,still no letter. At least from the info I receive. Now there is the hard to believe story that there are no workers to take over as overseer and they are going outside the company looking for applicants. Even if there wasn't we read here that overseers are evil. My feelings---- There is no messenger. The workers cancelled the union meeting Lin, they thought that there was no need for it...
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Post by open mind on Oct 12, 2010 20:50:13 GMT -5
My feelings---- There is no messenger. Your feelings, from 1000's of Klms away..
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Oct 12, 2010 20:58:35 GMT -5
We shall see.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 12, 2010 22:52:10 GMT -5
The judicial system deals with offenders,and adequately enough. It's like closing the barn door after the horse got out. It is adequate to prosecute offenders but totally inadequate to prevent offenses. I will be satisfied when I see the leadership of the church take proactive measures to reduce offenses rather than sit back and wait for a child's life to be destroyed then report the offender. That's just not good enough.
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Post by kiwi on Oct 13, 2010 0:59:43 GMT -5
The judicial system deals with offenders,and adequately enough. It's like closing the barn door after the horse got out. It is adequate to prosecute offenders but totally inadequate to prevent offenses. I will be satisfied when I see the leadership of the church take proactive measures to reduce offenses rather than sit back and wait for a child's life to be destroyed then report the offender. That's just not good enough. What proactive measures do you suggest?
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Post by ronhall on Oct 13, 2010 1:03:17 GMT -5
I get accused of shooting the messenger. I'm afraid the messenger shoots himself in the foot. The first we heard of this story was a worker had been accused of csa. There was going to be a letter going out asking for more to come forth and accuse this worker before he even was charged. he then confessed. Then there was going to be the big union meeting,never happened. Then once again a letter was going to come out,still no letter. At least from the info I receive. Now there is the hard to believe story that there are no workers to take over as overseer and they are going outside the company looking for applicants. Even if there wasn't we read here that overseers are evil. My feelings---- There is no messenger. There sure is a messenger, Linford! And I'd like to wring his neck, duct tape his head to the point that he could barely breathe and see a little, then send him back to Ramsey, Whatever on the Honda he rode in on! There! I feel better! But what's the point? The door to the age of innocence has closed behind us but there is a new door to open ahead. We have no choice but to open it and enter into a new future beyond. Yes, we are saddened to know of those who sullied our memories of the age of innocence and saddened even more knowing about the victims. What has happened, has happened and we are fortunate to have the health and strength to move on. Some don't. Move on, we must.
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 13, 2010 5:50:11 GMT -5
There sure is a messenger, Linford! And I'd like to wring his neck, duct tape his head to the point that he could barely breathe and see a little, then send him back to Ramsey, Whatever on the Honda he rode in on!Thanks for leaving me the ability to breathe and see!! (Duct tape is sure a great thing to have around isn't it!!!) Scott
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Post by sharonw on Oct 13, 2010 6:37:58 GMT -5
There sure is a messenger, Linford! And I'd like to wring his neck, duct tape his head to the point that he could barely breathe and see a little, then send him back to Ramsey, Whatever on the Honda he rode in on!Thanks for leaving me the ability to breathe and see!! (Duct tape is sure a great thing to have around isn't it!!!) Scott Somehow, Scott, I don't think Ronhall was meaning you were the messenger!
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Post by spiders on Oct 13, 2010 6:47:26 GMT -5
What you are reporting Scott is correct from my perspective as someone who is living amongst it all. You need to have grown up and lived in Vic/Tas to properly understand the culture of the F&W here.
The reports of 4 workers being involved with CSA has come from a number of reliable sources. At this stage one is being investigated by the Police and another has been stood down from preaching. I have not heard who the other two are but no doubt this will come out in time. However until this is known all workers are under suspicion. This situation is untenable especially with conventions about to begin.
The workers are not being open and honest with the friends, with not all being contacted. The male workers are not facing up to their responsibilities and it is being left to the sister workers to tell people about the perpetrator. However what they are telling people is not consistent and they are being selective in who they tell. (based on who they think may be victims.) I am not aware of people being told why the second senior worker has been stood down.
There is a culture of fear amongst some of the friends that stops them from questioning workers and stops them from reporting CSA by being threatened with being "put out"
This why Vic/Tas needs overseas help from those overseers who have dealt with CSA. We need open, honest and compassionate leadership for CSA in the ministry to be cleaned up. It this does not happen people will become disillusioned and leave, with the fellowship suffering.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Oct 13, 2010 6:54:46 GMT -5
This is on the sub board. This person is there as well.
Re: Letter to Friends in Victoria and Tasmania « Reply #247 Today at 4:58am » Cheers Scott,
If you only report what you are asked, here is a request.
"Dear Scott,
Please advise folks that the matter you have referred to is under Police investigation and the matter will be dealt with under due process of law. Speculation does not help in Police inquires in the matter.
Wings played a role in putting the right people in contact with the right people to ensure that the matter was brought to a swift head and the appropriate action taken.
Trying to tie more workers into the investigation just clouds the issues and makes police inquires much more difficult.
Could you please ask people to desist in speculation and let the law take its due course.
Thank you"
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Oct 13, 2010 7:03:50 GMT -5
Scott's gracious answer
The above is a request that was given to me to post here on the board.
Although I do not know the person who asked this of me, I respect their opinion in this matter. As mentioned:
Please advise folks that the matter you have referred to is under Police investigation and the matter will be dealt with under due process of law.
If you have any information concerning the issues facing the church, you are asked to help the authorities by contacting them and providing information that you may know of.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 13, 2010 7:20:32 GMT -5
The judicial system deals with offenders,and adequately enough. It's like closing the barn door after the horse got out. It is adequate to prosecute offenders but totally inadequate to prevent offenses. I will be satisfied when I see the leadership of the church take proactive measures to reduce offenses rather than sit back and wait for a child's life to be destroyed then report the offender. That's just not good enough. What proactive measures do you suggest? Great question kiwi! This should be the beginning of a new thread. Allow me ask you a question first before I point out some of the proactive measures which have been suggested on this forum: Do you acknowledge that there is a CSA problem within the F&W fellowship for which proactive measures are necessary?
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Post by spiders on Oct 13, 2010 7:32:37 GMT -5
This is on the sub board. This person is there as well. Re: Letter to Friends in Victoria and Tasmania « Reply #247 Today at 4:58am » Cheers Scott, If you only report what you are asked, here is a request. "Dear Scott, Please advise folks that the matter you have referred to is under Police investigation and the matter will be dealt with under due process of law. Speculation does not help in Police inquires in the matter. Wings played a role in putting the right people in contact with the right people to ensure that the matter was brought to a swift head and the appropriate action taken. Trying to tie more workers into the investigation just clouds the issues and makes police inquires much more difficult. Could you please ask people to desist in speculation and let the law take its due course. Thank you" It would be interesting to know under what authority this person has made such comments. Do the Police believe this is the case? Maybe this is why the case of the current perpertrator has been delayed going to court...........to widen the investigation?? A worker told me that the minsitry must be clean. This cannot happen until all known perpertrators are brought to justice.
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Post by ronhall on Oct 13, 2010 7:34:33 GMT -5
There sure is a messenger, Linford! And I'd like to wring his neck, duct tape his head to the point that he could barely breathe and see a little, then send him back to Ramsey, Whatever on the Honda he rode in on!Thanks for leaving me the ability to breathe and see!! (Duct tape is sure a great thing to have around isn't it!!!) Scott Somehow, Scott, I don't think Ronhall was meaning you were the messenger! Just a bit of levity focused on how pointless a "shoot the messenger" response is, even though that's usually the first thing that comes to my mind. Of course, we all wish the clock could be turned back so that with the wisdom we have today we could live yesterday, last week, last month, last year, etc. Yeah, duct tape is handy to have around, but is a temporary fix at best. Glad Scott made it back to Ramsey! Obviously a waste of perfectly good duct tape! :>) On a more serious note, it boggles my mind how this kind of thing has been able to go on, hidden for so long. At this point, all that can be done is to allow the investigation to go on unhindered. Whatever turns up will need to be dealt at the appropriate time. I don't believe problems within the fellowship and especially the workership should be allowed to grow unchecked to the point the authorities need be be called in. However, it is apparent that those in control feel otherwise. I respect that, but it does cause me to wonder, more than a little!
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 13, 2010 7:43:43 GMT -5
There sure is a messenger, Linford! And I'd like to wring his neck, duct tape his head to the point that he could barely breathe and see a little, then send him back to Ramsey, Whatever on the Honda he rode in on!Thanks for leaving me the ability to breathe and see!! (Duct tape is sure a great thing to have around isn't it!!!) Scott Somehow, Scott, I don't think Ronhall was meaning you were the messenger! Uh... Sharon.... if you look, ronhall mentions: then send him back to Ramsey, Whatever on the Honda he rode in onronhall knows that I ride a Honda. (actually two of them!!) and if you look over there under that mean looking picture of me you'll notice that it says I live in Ramsey..... I know ronhall, so I took this in the spirit intended and got a chuckle out of it. The point I think he was making was that he wished that he wishes that the message was false and that 'shooting the messenger' (or duct taping him) was a valid option to deal with the issue to make it go away. I've had several off-board discussions with ronhall and have a lot of respect for him and his thoughts. Scott
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 13, 2010 7:46:03 GMT -5
Ha!! I see that while I was typing my response that pesky ronhall beat me to it.... Obviously a waste of perfectly good duct tape! :>)Nope. Duct tape is very versatile. I was able to reuse it on several occasions....... ;D Scott
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Oct 13, 2010 7:54:43 GMT -5
Duck tape? Isn't that for ducks that quack up?
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Post by ronhall on Oct 13, 2010 8:03:48 GMT -5
Ha!! I see that while I was typing my response that pesky ronhall beat me to it.... Obviously a waste of perfectly good duct tape! :>)Nope. Duct tape is very versatile. I was able to reuse it on several occasions....... ;D Scott What!!!? You're reusing MY duct tape? I WANT IT BACK! Never mind! :>) And you're right -- I just wish something could be done so the problem would go away. :>(
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Oct 13, 2010 8:14:18 GMT -5
My grandfather used to say "if you put all your trust in humans, you will always be disappointed"
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Post by Learning Patience on Oct 13, 2010 8:41:31 GMT -5
My grandfather used to say "if you put all your trust in humans, you will always be disappointed" Hi Linford, that is a great quote. I assume that you are bringing this up in response to a few workers being guilty of CSA. Your message is what I have been trying to get out as well- if we put the workers on a pedestal and begin to think that they are faultless, blameless, and beyond reproach and beyond questioning- offenses will come. There is another saying: "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." And as someone has mentioned, part of the issue is that so many people feel powerless when trying to get a worker to admit that they have made a mistake. It is OK to question a worker- about anything that they are teaching. It behooves us to question them- we all need to understand what we are being taught- and questions are a normal and INTEGRAL part of learning. A good college professor doesn't feel "threatened" when his/her students ask questions. Questions should be encouraged not shied away from. Especially in regards to the truth- because the truth doesn't fear questions- questions give truth even more chances to reveal itself.
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Post by ronhall on Oct 13, 2010 9:08:40 GMT -5
My grandfather used to say "if you put all your trust in humans, you will always be disappointed" Hi Linford, that is a great quote. I assume that you are bringing this up in response to a few workers being guilty of CSA. Your message is what I have been trying to get out as well- if we put the workers on a pedestal and begin to think that they are faultless, blameless, and beyond reproach and beyond questioning- offenses will come. There is another saying: "Absolute power corrupts absolutely." And as someone has mentioned, part of the issue is that so many people feel powerless when trying to get a worker to admit that they have made a mistake. It is OK to question a worker- about anything that they are teaching. It behooves us to question them- we all need to understand what we are being taught- and questions are a normal and INTEGRAL part of learning. A good college professor doesn't feel "threatened" when his/her students ask questions. Questions should be encouraged not shied away from. Especially in regards to the truth- because the truth doesn't fear questions- questions give truth even more chances to reveal itself. OTOH falseness does fear questions.
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