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Post by tassie girl on Oct 16, 2010 8:41:05 GMT -5
Thank you victorian for your point of view. Yes you are right, no second worker is currently under investigation by authorities for CSA, but you are unfortunately wrong too (two others are known to have been reported to senior Vic/Tas workers by victims or their friends, and also to police we understand. But police are not yet investigating).
Clearday wrote the excellent post on the board below with concerns about the futility of "behind the scenes" work to address this problem. We know the harsh truth of what Clearday has said and the frustration. Trying to get even small improvements by working "behind the scenes" is all but impossible. Either those with authority in the church act and it must be done openly. Or else things just carry on, and effectively CSA is covered up except for what cannot be because it is in the hands of police.
If you are a member of the church and you don't like the stance of the senior workers in Vic/Tas towards what is serious criminal matters, what to do?
Vote with your feet? Report what you know to the health authorities? Confront the hierarchy of senior workers and get yourself blackballed? What would you do?
It's worth saying but probably futile too. Senior workers only have authority that's given them by the friends. They have no God given authority to be in charge without doing everything possible to protect chidren from evil CSA at the hands of any worker any longer (isn't 30 years enough?)
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 16, 2010 19:55:16 GMT -5
In answer to "Victorian too", no I am not a worker nor a workers "stooge" as you put it. Nor do I have an agenda. Nor to I believe there are multiple workers under investigation. I do not even profess. Like Scott, I have many fiends that do profess. Nor do I believe that when a worker, who has not been of great health, leaves the work, that he should be immediately under suspicion or CSA. I sure hope you don't think I was implying that John was one of those mentioned. I meant the opposite when I said 'other than...' As far as how other issues of molestation has been handled you can read about that here. This is about a former worker that was reported to WINGS quite a while back. Lots of folks were pretty upset with how this was handled by the workers. www.thestarphoenix.com/news/jail%20former%20evangelist%20admitted%20molesting%20child/3675436/story.html |
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Post by emy on Oct 16, 2010 20:13:04 GMT -5
I don't understand why they are upset. The worker confessed to the parents - more than one set of parents - and none chose to report to the authorities. When it was recommended that he do so, he did and received his sentence. What is the problem? Also he was removed from the ministry and put into treatment which sounds like it is working. Is nothing satisfactory but a black mark by a name forever? |
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 17, 2010 0:31:15 GMT -5
I don't understand why they are upset. The worker confessed to the parents - more than one set of parents - and none chose to report to the authorities. When it was recommended that he do so, he did and received his sentence. What is the problem? Also he was removed from the ministry and put into treatment which sounds like it is working. Is nothing satisfactory but a black mark by a name forever? They were upset because of how it was handled by the workers emy. First off, he had allegedly molested relatives before he entered the work. Members of his own family told the workers he shouldn't go into the work because he had problems. Read what he posted: Bruce Waddell, 55, told the child's parents about the fondling about a week after it happened in 2004
In an interview outside court, Waddell said he victimized other children but he was only charged with the Thompson, Man., case.
"They didn't want to go to the law of the land. They wanted to leave it in God's hands," he said.
about a year after the incident, Waddell left the non-denominational ministry and moved to Saskatoon to seek help for his problem.You really don't see why anyone could be upset? At what point did he quit molesting the kids? Which number was he charged with? After leaving the ministry (a year later after admitting his actions to the parents) he moved to Saskatoon. There he was employed by a trucking company owned by one of the friends. During that time, no one was informed of why he had left his position as a worker. When the workers were questioned about this by a professing lady, they said it was all being taken care of, and 'who told you about this'. So.... It isn't a matter about a 'black mark' on Bruce's name. I commend him for following the recommendations of the therapists in that regard. It is a black mark against the workers. They left this man (who obviously had admitted to having problems) in the work for another year without notifying the friends, and then after leaving the work they likewise never notified those people who he was meeting with about his issues. Like I mentioned, WINGS heard about this long ago. From who? Why from those upset professing folks of course. Almost all current issues are reported by members of your church who are concerned with how the workers are handling these issues. Of course the word got spread around in spite of the efforts of the workers to treat it as a non-issue. Friends warned friends, and once again the workers lost credibility and trust with the members there. Is nothing satisfactory but a black mark by a name forever?Who do you feel is putting that black mark by Bruce's name? Me for posting it here or the newspaper for reporting it there? This conviction didn't have anything to do with WINGS. Likewise none of the dozen or so convictions listed on WINGS had anything to do with us. We simply post the convictions there what have already been decided in a court of law. These all had to do with a crime being committed, due process of law followed by a conviction and a sentence handed down by the court system. In none of those cases did WINGS file a report which led to an investigation. In fact, at least 7 of those listed were reported by professing folks and workers who were following the law in doing so. Scott 
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Post by someguy on Oct 17, 2010 1:19:56 GMT -5
I don't understand why they are upset. The worker confessed to the parents - more than one set of parents - and none chose to report to the authorities. When it was recommended that he do so, he did and received his sentence. What is the problem? Also he was removed from the ministry and put into treatment which sounds like it is working. Is nothing satisfactory but a black mark by a name forever? Trouble is Emy, you see worker and you rush to his defense. You know nothing of the victims and how they still struggle, but apparently thats ok for you. He abused many, but of course the friends didn't report him to the police, you don't do that. I remember being little and hearing of incidences where the workers simply counseled the friends to forgive the perp. But thats ok right? Bruce hurt children, but he said he was sorry and got counselling and now everyone should move on. I don't know what parallel universe you live in but I sure am thankful I don't live there. Enjoy the kool aid. As to him being removed from the ministry, no one knew anything about it outside of the families. He was around children while he was in Saskatoon and no one there outside of the workers knew why he was around. But then I am sure you would find a defense for that as well. |
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Post by victorian too on Oct 17, 2010 9:21:11 GMT -5
to victorian.
You say you are not a worker or a workers stooge.
OK, if you say so. You do a great impersonation though.
You DO have an agenda. You requested Scott to post something on the board, which he did. You want people to stop speculating.
My post refers to multiple suspects, not multiple people under active investigation. If you don't believe there are multiple suspects you are ignorant or indenial. Take your pick.
You don't even profess? You should consider it. It is gods only true way as your many professing friends likely have told you.
Your friends must also have told you a bit about the worker who has retired, which goes to the question Scott asked you. Thanks for answering, buy the way. If you have assumed that Scott thinks this man is under suspicion of some sort, it may be that your friends haven't told you all there is to know about him.
To tassie girl.
Thanks for your post. Getting this CSA business handled adequately by the workers is going to be a hard slog for the people you want this to take place and yes there may be some casualities along the way. Even people voting with their feet won't move the workers. It will be said of people who do that, "they just have a bad spirit anyway".
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Post by emy on Oct 17, 2010 11:49:31 GMT -5
I don't understand why they are upset. The worker confessed to the parents - more than one set of parents - and none chose to report to the authorities. When it was recommended that he do so, he did and received his sentence. What is the problem? Also he was removed from the ministry and put into treatment which sounds like it is working. Is nothing satisfactory but a black mark by a name forever? Trouble is Emy, you see worker and you rush to his defense. You know nothing of the victims and how they still struggle, but apparently thats ok for you. He abused many, but of course the friends didn't report him to the police, you don't do that. I remember being little and hearing of incidences where the workers simply counseled the friends to forgive the perp. But thats ok right? Bruce hurt children, but he said he was sorry and got counselling and now everyone should move on. I don't know what parallel universe you live in but I sure am thankful I don't live there. Enjoy the kool aid. As to him being removed from the ministry, no one knew anything about it outside of the families. He was around children while he was in Saskatoon and no one there outside of the workers knew why he was around. But then I am sure you would find a defense for that as well. Scott and Someguy. None of that additional information was in the article I read. My reaction would have been quite different if it had been. From the way the article was written, it sounded like a good outcome. My mistake. |
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Post by ronhall on Oct 17, 2010 14:12:21 GMT -5
I don't think it is a mistake to assume good until you learn otherwise.
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Post by magpie on Oct 17, 2010 18:13:30 GMT -5
I am submitting this post in response to what I read on the main board where some posters obviously don’t have much accurate information about the situation in Victoria and Tasmania, one poster even saying there is no problem whatsoever. I am posting some facts and some personal observations and opinions.
Victoria and Tasmania, the two most southerly states of Australia, are administered by the same overseer and share the available ministers between them. The fellowship in these states has always been a little different. It has always been very closed in nature and conservative in outlook.
The current overseer (JR) is a man who keeps almost entirely to himself. He is a hard line arch conservative, completely set in his ways and who doesn’t show much tolerance or compassion.
Under his leadership, the ministers here, with a few exceptions, have highly exalted themselves and they like to exercise complete control over the members of the fellowship. Sadly many members allow them complete control over their lives, mainly because many think that the ministers have some sort of control over their salvation. They are self opinionated, self righteous and very harsh in their judgements. Fellowship members are put out of the fellowship for flimsy reasons.
Also under JR’s leadership, a criminal sub culture of child sexual abuse activity within the ministry has continued. Other kinds of immoral behaviour are evident as well.
JR has been sick for many months and the system has been grinding along without anyone announced to the fellowship as being in charge, even on a temporary basis. This indicates that there has been no succession planning and no one has been developed and made ready to take over.
A relatively junior minister is taking the lead role in dealing with the CSA matter in Victoria. He may even be the new overseer elect. He does not have the personality or the physical health necessary for handling the rigours of the task and more than that, he seems unstable and handles the truth carelessly.
His efforts to date are deplorable, designed mainly to protect the offender(s) and prevent the fellowship members from knowing the full extent of the problems.
It seems like nothing much is being done in Tasmania where the perpetrator who has confessed was stationed this year.
This is all a bit strange because there are a number of male ministers available in Victoria / Tasmania with many years of experience, including experience overseas, but for some reason the most senior men have been stationed for years in Tasmania, the least populated state. Go figure that out.
The senior male minister who has confessed claims he abused only a small number of victims but says he stopped his abusive behaviour a long time ago. Given what is known about paedophile behaviours, these claims are unlikely to be true.
The ministers however appear to believe the perpetrators story, so they have organised their response selectively. The ministers have only spoken directly to some women who THEY decided are in the at risk age group. They are letting the grapevine spread information more widely.
I have seen it said on the board, God has allowed these crimes to be done. The ministry should equally accept that God has moved some to feel very angry and to expect a complete purge of the criminals and immoral persons from the ministry and a change in attitude of the remaining ministers.
There is certainly a number of other male ministers who some suspect have engaged in criminal CSA activity.
It is almost certainly true that some of the male ministers in Victoria and Tasmania, as well as JR and overseers in some other Australian states, have known for years about the offenses. To their shame, they did nothing about it at the appropriate time.
The female ministers have escaped the spotlight of scrutiny so far.
It is a desperate state of affairs. The right things must be done for the victims and the fellowship to be able to heal and move forward.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Oct 17, 2010 18:28:12 GMT -5
Magpie Why have you waited until now to make these statements?
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Post by someguy on Oct 17, 2010 18:46:14 GMT -5
Magpie Why have you waited until now to make these statements? why not now? This sounds about right from what I know of the goings on over there. Isn't this what you heard as well Linford? |
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Post by spiders on Oct 17, 2010 19:06:43 GMT -5
Magpie Why have you waited until now to make these statements? I think what magpie has written has been said by a number of posters over the last couple of months. What magpie has done is put this all together in a well written and comprehensive assessment of the situation in Vic/Tas. The post provides an excellent view of what it is like being part of the fellowship in Vic/Tas. It is difficult to appreciate how things are here unless you have lived under this oppressive situation for some time. As magpie said it is very closed and controlling and this environment has allowed CSA to flourish and go unchecked. It has been allowed to continue and been covered up by the current administration. The future for the fellowship in Vic/Tas is dire unless all perpetrators are removed from the ministry and dealt with by the authorities. A new overseer needs to be installed who has the ability to deal with this situation in an open and honest way. How can God bless a ministry that has failed to take CSA seriously? |
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Post by victorian too on Oct 17, 2010 19:21:07 GMT -5
Magpie, can I answer to waterguy for you?
Acknowledging Victor Hugo and quoting him:
"There is nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come".
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 17, 2010 20:42:08 GMT -5
Scott and Someguy. None of that additional information was in the article I read. My reaction would have been quite different if it had been. From the way the article was written, it sounded like a good outcome. My mistake. I didn't mean it to look like I was upset by your post. I guess after all that i have heard about this case I see the final outcome a bit differently than you would. I reread the article trying to see it through the eyes of a professing person, and I think I can understand your reaction to it. For some people, to read the following: "Everybody forgave me. The ones that I did, the parents forgave me. We believe in repentance and forgiveness."
Waddell said none of the parents wanted him to go to the police.
"They didn't want to go to the law of the land. They wanted to leave it in God's hands," he said.would mean that everything was dealt with by the church in a spiritual and Christian matter. Well.... all Christians believe in confession, repentance and forgiveness. Pretty much what being a Christian is all about.  Forgiveness is separate from taking appropriate action in such a matter. Along with confession, repentance and forgiveness, there is also the instruction to follow the law of the land where one resides. How many times should an individual be allowed to commit the same illegal act before doing more than forgiving? This is another of those situations where by minimizing the issue, keeping it a 'secret' from families with children, it actually opened the door to further abuse. Bruce wasn't guilty of an isolated incident. He was charged and convicted of one which he confessed to, but also admitted to others: "There's been other victims but that's been looked after," Waddell said.
"We looked after the others before," he said."We"..... probably refers to the workers. Here is what I was sent concerning one of those that evidently was missed: The only thing that I have issue with is how Bruce states "all the families forgave me" or something to that effect. My heart just broke. I wonder if those kids did. I have a friend who was the first to tell me this story and let me tell you, years later the girl xxxxxx is still very much not 100%. There are spiritual things which 'should be left in God's hands', and then there are legal things which should be dealt with by the law of the land. In regard to: From the way the article was written, it sounded like a good outcome. My mistake.I agree with that statement, and you didn't make a mistake. This IS a good outcome. By Bruce following the recommendation of his therapist, at least one victim will be able to make use of counseling, and perhaps more as well. Too bad that the workers hadn't given him the same advice when they became aware of this. To have the families forgive Bruce isn't an issue. That is scriptural and correct. For the workers to cover it up and not inform the other families he was around wasn't. Scott
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Post by emy on Oct 17, 2010 21:39:02 GMT -5
Thanks Scott. Good to get the whole picture.
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Post by landdownunder on Oct 17, 2010 21:45:06 GMT -5
Courageous post magpie, hard to believe it's that bad in your parts. I'm tipping one day we'll have a Saint Magpie. Watch your feathers  Who's this Waterguy?Sounds like Linford Bledisloe in disguise. Are you playing funny bu**ers with us ;D |
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Post by landdownunder on Oct 17, 2010 21:48:31 GMT -5
Magpie, can I answer to waterguy for you? Acknowledging Victor Hugo and quoting him: "There is nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come". Victor Hugo went on to say "... or more powerless than a worker whose time is past". Often the last bit gets left off ;D |
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Post by Aus Guest on Oct 17, 2010 22:11:48 GMT -5
Great post Magpie. I am surprised that PD doesn’t return to Vic from WA, seeing John P has returned to WA from Taiwan.
John could take the leadership in WA. But maybe what Vic/Tas really requires is fresh leadership.
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Post by tassie girl on Oct 18, 2010 1:52:32 GMT -5
Interesting magpie thank you. In tassie we've had lots of senior men workers in recent years- Ray, Bernard, Ian, Cam, Claude, the one whose name I hate (he molested my friend). Only one lady worker this year but some others who are minding elderly relatives. Puzzle why all this men workers here? Its all really dysfunctional but then who cares its only tassie.
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Post by ex Victorian on Oct 18, 2010 1:59:52 GMT -5
Perhaps it's time to look at the overall culture of the friends in Victoria and Tasmania. Magpie nicely described it as conservative. It maybe difficult for people who haven't experienced fellowship in Victoria or Tasmania for any period of time to comprehend how controlling the opinions and attitudes are. Although I am no longer in either state I can guarantee any report to authorities of CSA will be met by an attitude of "they are of the wrong spirit" by some of the friends. Others will be too scared to show any support for fear of also being labelled with a "wrong spirit".
The problem is not just with the workers in Vic and Tassie - it also lies within the friends who are desperately holding onto their belief that the workers can do no wrong.
Also there is a very real sense that an admission of abuse within the family brings shame to the family.
Just my thoughts
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Post by cat girl on Oct 18, 2010 6:12:15 GMT -5
the friends need to start seeing these perps as criminals not just one off offenders!
criminals who lie and are helped by those who cover it up. stop putting workers on a pedestal and treat them as humans who succumb to the devil.
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Post by magpie on Oct 18, 2010 6:22:30 GMT -5
Hi Magpie,
Thanks for your well written letter.
Thanks also to tassie girl and ex victorian you all have them summed up.
Yes the friends are responsible for giving the workers control but sometime they don't have much choice as some friends are threatened by them, we know because we have witnessed it ourselves.
Cheers Aussies.
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Post by ex Victorian on Oct 18, 2010 15:30:23 GMT -5
Yes - the only way belief has got a lot to answer for down in Vic/Tassie. It has been used in the past by workers to keep people from speaking out.
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Post by ex tasvic on Oct 19, 2010 5:57:00 GMT -5
spot on ex victorian,
being an ex Tasmanian and an ex Victorian we sure know what they are like and if you don't conform to them you are out and they don't mind how they do it or what lies they tell in the process.
They can do what they like, when they like, but the people have to obey them or else.
It was Feb/March of 1983 that we were first told about this worker, so it has sure taken a long time for them to act on it, but they can act very swift in some things, like freezing people out, that don't suit them for whatever reason.
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Post by Another vic on Oct 19, 2010 6:23:14 GMT -5
I am in shock. You knew about this worker in 1983 and you did nothing? Why did u not go to the police? Or to a worker who would take action?
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Post by me too on Oct 19, 2010 7:17:41 GMT -5
If this worker had been exposed in 1983, an awful lot of pain and heartache would have been prevented.
As soon as some here heard of this worker's sexual abuse of children, together with the brave victims we reported him to two workers who acted immediately. He has since been reported to police and charged. Please, for the sake of all our children, do not ever consider keeping quiet about such abuse, it will only snowball. God's name and His reputation are paramount.
Ultimately God's ministry will be purer and stronger, we trust.
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Oct 19, 2010 7:35:23 GMT -5
You say he has already been charged?
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Post by charges on Oct 19, 2010 7:44:33 GMT -5
Thought your sources were impeccable, Linford? Appearing in court early next year.
Contact detective Leigh Lambert for details:
Leigh LAMBERT
Det.Sen.Constable 29449
Warragul CIU
PH: 56 227153
FAX: 56 227155
leigh.lambert@police.vic.gov.au
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