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Post by What Hat on Jul 23, 2010 20:01:55 GMT -5
There seems to be a high incidence of child abuse in non-celibate ministries as well. Plenty of web sites on this problem within the Baptists, JWs, and others. stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htmUnfortunately, these side issues won't help to solve the problem. |
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Post by sharonw on Jul 23, 2010 20:35:31 GMT -5
There seems to be a high incidence of child abuse in non-celibate ministries as well. Plenty of web sites on this problem within the Baptists, JWs, and others. stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htmUnfortunately, these side issues won't help to solve the problem. Maybe it's the position that offers such "control" over another that draws said perpatrators? I have to say the churches that I've noted around here that have had convicted CSA perps have been decisive and quick to the point in handing those straight over to the authorities. And the organization behind these other religious that is like a board of directors of the membership DO much better at keeping the ministers accountable...some churches sometimes do get polluted members as well, esp. when these boards serve for a length of time...one church I know of, the board members cannot serve over 2 years at a time....that alone keeps the board members from taking too much upon themselves as well! IMO |
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Post by What Hat on Jul 23, 2010 20:57:26 GMT -5
There seems to be a high incidence of child abuse in non-celibate ministries as well. Plenty of web sites on this problem within the Baptists, JWs, and others. stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htmUnfortunately, these side issues won't help to solve the problem. Maybe it's the position that offers such "control" over another that draws said perpatrators? I have to say the churches that I've noted around here that have had convicted CSA perps have been decisive and quick to the point in handing those straight over to the authorities. And the organization behind these other religious that is like a board of directors of the membership DO much better at keeping the ministers accountable...some churches sometimes do get polluted members as well, esp. when these boards serve for a length of time...one church I know of, the board members cannot serve over 2 years at a time....that alone keeps the board members from taking too much upon themselves as well! IMO I think that all sounds correct, sharon. Some of the more evil incorrigible perps will work their way into a position where they will have access to children and also gain their trust. So, sad to say, being a worker is the perfect place to be. And the f&w have been slow on the draw on this problem, and still are in some quarters. I know that for a fact. "One true way" religions tend to have trouble looking in the mirror. |
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Post by sharonw on Jul 23, 2010 21:06:54 GMT -5
Maybe it's the position that offers such "control" over another that draws said perpatrators? I have to say the churches that I've noted around here that have had convicted CSA perps have been decisive and quick to the point in handing those straight over to the authorities. And the organization behind these other religious that is like a board of directors of the membership DO much better at keeping the ministers accountable...some churches sometimes do get polluted members as well, esp. when these boards serve for a length of time...one church I know of, the board members cannot serve over 2 years at a time....that alone keeps the board members from taking too much upon themselves as well! IMO I think that all sounds correct, sharon. Some of the more evil incorrigible perps will work their way into a position where they will have access to children and also gain their trust. So, sad to say, being a worker is the perfect place to be. And the f&w have been slow on the draw on this problem, and still are in some quarters. I know that for a fact. "One true way" religions tend to have trouble looking in the mirror. I have to wonder though, what...considering a lot of the male workers and even female workers are taken into the work at a fairly young age in comparison to other religions where the ministeral staff have to go to lots of secondary education, etc whether these perps that turn up in the work actually go into the work with the thought that it would serve their more evil purposes? Is it possible they know how wrong such actions are and maybe they feel like being a worker would cause them to prohibit that lust? One would hope so, anyway, though it apparently doesn't always work that way! Maybe some of them have already committed such acts before going into the work and realize that they'll have a larger crowd of unsuspecting people they can work within, but to accomodate in their manipulative minds that the work actually gives them the power to oppress others or command others to their own likes might just not come to them. Most of the young people going into the work don't seem to really realize what it is all about to the greater degree! I think that is why there are a considerable number of young workers that have not and will not stay within the work...once they get in there and really discover what it is all about....they leave. |
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 24, 2010 8:57:13 GMT -5
I think that all sounds correct, sharon. Some of the more evil incorrigible perps will work their way into a position where they will have access to children and also gain their trust. So, sad to say, being a worker is the perfect place to be. And the f&w have been slow on the draw on this problem, and still are in some quarters. I know that for a fact. "One true way" religions tend to have trouble looking in the mirror. I have to wonder though, what...considering a lot of the male workers and even female workers are taken into the work at a fairly young age in comparison to other religions where the ministeral staff have to go to lots of secondary education, etc whether these perps that turn up in the work actually go into the work with the thought that it would serve their more evil purposes? Is it possible they know how wrong such actions are and maybe they feel like being a worker would cause them to prohibit that lust? One would hope so, anyway, though it apparently doesn't always work that way! Maybe some of them have already committed such acts before going into the work and realize that they'll have a larger crowd of unsuspecting people they can work within, but to accomodate in their manipulative minds that the work actually gives them the power to oppress others or command others to their own likes might just not come to them. Most of the young people going into the work don't seem to really realize what it is all about to the greater degree! I think that is why there are a considerable number of young workers that have not and will not stay within the work...once they get in there and really discover what it is all about....they leave. Could be,might be. Are we stating fact here or just going off the deep end. Are you an expert on the work? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 24, 2010 9:18:34 GMT -5
I have to wonder though, what...considering a lot of the male workers and even female workers are taken into the work at a fairly young age in comparison to other religions where the ministeral staff have to go to lots of secondary education, etc whether these perps that turn up in the work actually go into the work with the thought that it would serve their more evil purposes? Is it possible they know how wrong such actions are and maybe they feel like being a worker would cause them to prohibit that lust? One would hope so, anyway, though it apparently doesn't always work that way! Maybe some of them have already committed such acts before going into the work and realize that they'll have a larger crowd of unsuspecting people they can work within, but to accomodate in their manipulative minds that the work actually gives them the power to oppress others or command others to their own likes might just not come to them. Most of the young people going into the work don't seem to really realize what it is all about to the greater degree! I think that is why there are a considerable number of young workers that have not and will not stay within the work...once they get in there and really discover what it is all about....they leave. Could be,might be. Are we stating fact here or just going off the deep end. Are you an expert on the work? I don't think the current method is to take really young workers. At least on the west coast, I believe you have to have demonstrated an ability to support yourself. Many have a degree plus several years of work experience--making them around 24-26. Wouldn't that be in the ballpark of other ministries? |
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 24, 2010 9:32:33 GMT -5
True Hberry. Many in the 60s volunteered for draft before going into the work. Some even went to Vietnam. Some also served in the Korean conflict.
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Post by What Hat on Jul 24, 2010 9:51:01 GMT -5
I think that all sounds correct, sharon. Some of the more evil incorrigible perps will work their way into a position where they will have access to children and also gain their trust. So, sad to say, being a worker is the perfect place to be. And the f&w have been slow on the draw on this problem, and still are in some quarters. I know that for a fact. "One true way" religions tend to have trouble looking in the mirror. I have to wonder though, what...considering a lot of the male workers and even female workers are taken into the work at a fairly young age in comparison to other religions where the ministeral staff have to go to lots of secondary education, etc whether these perps that turn up in the work actually go into the work with the thought that it would serve their more evil purposes? Is it possible they know how wrong such actions are and maybe they feel like being a worker would cause them to prohibit that lust? One would hope so, anyway, though it apparently doesn't always work that way! Maybe some of them have already committed such acts before going into the work and realize that they'll have a larger crowd of unsuspecting people they can work within, but to accomodate in their manipulative minds that the work actually gives them the power to oppress others or command others to their own likes might just not come to them. Most of the young people going into the work don't seem to really realize what it is all about to the greater degree! I think that is why there are a considerable number of young workers that have not and will not stay within the work...once they get in there and really discover what it is all about....they leave. I see where you're going Sharon, although I don't disagree with Lin here. But we're just talking idly about how it is that someone in the work comes to abuse. I didn't mean to assert that all perps would come into the work as a wolf in sheep's clothing. The seemingly honorable clergyman, whose outward deportment masks a hugely conflicted personality struggling between lust and virtue, may be a more prevalent stereotype. It certainly comes up in literature often enough. |
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 24, 2010 9:58:24 GMT -5
A lot involves where our focus is. If we focus on workers that have failed in their responsibilities,that is all we are going to see. Then our language is using the words all,many,most etc. If we focus on those that have been useful and faithful to their commitment that is all we will see. Then our language will be some, a few,etc.
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Post by sharonw on Jul 24, 2010 10:09:48 GMT -5
A lot involves where our focus is. If we focus on workers that have failed in their responsibilities,that is all we are going to see. Then our language is using the words all,many,most etc. If we focus on those that have been useful and faithful to their commitment that is all we will see. Then our language will be some, a few,etc. My whole point is Lin, that I cannot believe that that many of the guilty pedophiles actually go into the work to practice their horrors...I'm trying to give some credit that some actually want to live upright lives and that the illness overtakes them and would overtake them regardless of where they ended up as adults. I think that it's proven that it is an illness with the majority of the perpatrators, and I think it is also been proven that when such affected people obtain positions of power and authority then that alone plays into the illness. Otherwords, it isn't the fact there are such perpatrators, but the problem is HOW those who have the authority to corral them react to that behaviour. The secreting and padding and enabling is totally wrong for such perpatrators....normal desires to give people second chances won't work for the majority of them. But enabling them to continue their infractions and sins, really is the greater sin, IMO! |
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Post by What Hat on Jul 24, 2010 10:42:01 GMT -5
A lot involves where our focus is. If we focus on workers that have failed in their responsibilities,that is all we are going to see. Then our language is using the words all,many,most etc. If we focus on those that have been useful and faithful to their commitment that is all we will see. Then our language will be some, a few,etc. I agree with your statement about our focus, but at the same time we should pay some attention to our peripheral vision so that we're not easily blindsided. |
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Post by What Hat on Jul 24, 2010 10:44:50 GMT -5
A lot involves where our focus is. If we focus on workers that have failed in their responsibilities,that is all we are going to see. Then our language is using the words all,many,most etc. If we focus on those that have been useful and faithful to their commitment that is all we will see. Then our language will be some, a few,etc. My whole point is Lin, that I cannot believe that that many of the guilty pedophiles actually go into the work to practice their horrors...I'm trying to give some credit that some actually want to live upright lives and that the illness overtakes them and would overtake them regardless of where they ended up as adults. I think that it's proven that it is an illness with the majority of the perpatrators, and I think it is also been proven that when such affected people obtain positions of power and authority then that alone plays into the illness. Otherwords, it isn't the fact there are such perpatrators, but the problem is HOW those who have the authority to corral them react to that behaviour. The secreting and padding and enabling is totally wrong for such perpatrators....normal desires to give people second chances won't work for the majority of them. But enabling them to continue their infractions and sins, really is the greater sin, IMO! I take the colder view that some are born pedophiles and are not curable. When you use the word "illness" there's an implication that a cure is possible. |
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 24, 2010 10:48:07 GMT -5
I would say we would get blindsided if our focus is on weakness, because we are what we focus on. If weakness, we are weak. If strength we are strong. The law of attraction.
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Post by someguy on Jul 24, 2010 11:14:47 GMT -5
I would say we would get blindsided if our focus is on weakness, because we are what we focus on. If weakness, we are weak. If strength we are strong. The law of attraction. Amen. So, then when there is an issue like CSA how does it go away if it is considered weakness to focus on it? Not asking to stir things up. Often times people say we are what we focus on. Fair enough, but what about people who notice obvious scriptural errors and what to fix them to strengthen those around them. Is it a weakness to focus on them or a strength? |
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 24, 2010 11:31:15 GMT -5
We must focus on strength . Strength is the only thing that will overcome weakness. Strength is not ignoring weakness. Focusing on strength and where it comes from will give us the initiative and tools to overcome weakness. The way to strengthen others is to be strong ourselves.
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Post by someguy on Jul 24, 2010 11:38:54 GMT -5
We must focus on strength . Strength is the only thing that will overcome weakness. Strength is not ignoring weakness. Focusing on strength and where it comes from will give us the initiative and tools to overcome weakness. The way to strengthen others is to be strong ourselves. Fair enough...I would say amen to that. One exalt coming up.  |
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Post by rational on Jul 24, 2010 11:54:07 GMT -5
My whole point is Lin, that I cannot believe that that many of the guilty pedophiles actually go into the work to practice their horrors. I think that it should be pointed out that everyone that is convicted of sexual abuse of children is not a pedophile. Judging from the written descriptions of the activities of those convicted it is doubtful that any were actually pedophiles. Have there been any workers who have been convicted of sexual child abuse who were pedophiles? I don't think this has been proven at all. From what has been posted I have yet to see any description that would classify the person as a pedophile. |
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Post by sharonw on Jul 24, 2010 16:20:02 GMT -5
My whole point is Lin, that I cannot believe that that many of the guilty pedophiles actually go into the work to practice their horrors...I'm trying to give some credit that some actually want to live upright lives and that the illness overtakes them and would overtake them regardless of where they ended up as adults. I think that it's proven that it is an illness with the majority of the perpatrators, and I think it is also been proven that when such affected people obtain positions of power and authority then that alone plays into the illness. Otherwords, it isn't the fact there are such perpatrators, but the problem is HOW those who have the authority to corral them react to that behaviour. The secreting and padding and enabling is totally wrong for such perpatrators....normal desires to give people second chances won't work for the majority of them. But enabling them to continue their infractions and sins, really is the greater sin, IMO! I take the colder view that some are born pedophiles and are not curable. When you use the word "illness" there's an implication that a cure is possible. No, there's some illnesses which are terminal, what. And as the earth gets older, seems to be more and more of those kind of illnesses creeping up on the populations! |
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Post by sharonw on Jul 24, 2010 16:22:04 GMT -5
We must focus on strength . Strength is the only thing that will overcome weakness. Strength is not ignoring weakness. Focusing on strength and where it comes from will give us the initiative and tools to overcome weakness. The way to strengthen others is to be strong ourselves. But Lin, to be fair, this statement is exactly the opposite of what has been taught within the fellowship....our strength is never to be...but weak in ourselves, etc......  |
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Post by sharonw on Jul 24, 2010 16:23:37 GMT -5
My whole point is Lin, that I cannot believe that that many of the guilty pedophiles actually go into the work to practice their horrors. I think that it should be pointed out that everyone that is convicted of sexual abuse of children is not a pedophile. Judging from the written descriptions of the activities of those convicted it is doubtful that any were actually pedophiles. Have there been any workers who have been convicted of sexual child abuse who were pedophiles? I don't think this has been proven at all. From what has been posted I have yet to see any description that would classify the person as a pedophile. What are you saying, Rational, that these worker child abusers are just horny men?  |
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Post by Linford Bledsoe on Jul 24, 2010 16:43:49 GMT -5
We must focus on strength . Strength is the only thing that will overcome weakness. Strength is not ignoring weakness. Focusing on strength and where it comes from will give us the initiative and tools to overcome weakness. The way to strengthen others is to be strong ourselves. But Lin, to be fair, this statement is exactly the opposite of what has been taught within the fellowship....our strength is never to be...but weak in ourselves, etc...... I don't agree with that and never did. We have to have a resolve or strength,to stand for what we know to be right. All through the bible we read of strong people,who did great things for their day. |
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Post by rational on Jul 24, 2010 18:15:03 GMT -5
I think that it should be pointed out that everyone that is convicted of sexual abuse of children is not a pedophile. Judging from the written descriptions of the activities of those convicted it is doubtful that any were actually pedophiles. Have there been any workers who have been convicted of sexual child abuse who were pedophiles? I don't think this has been proven at all. From what has been posted I have yet to see any description that would classify the person as a pedophile. What I am saying is that pedophilia is a defined illness and the descriptions of the transgressions that have been posted here do not indicate that any of the people were pedophiles. Sharon, you have labeled people as having a psychiatric disorder when the facts do not support your claim. It is pure speculation on your part and potentially damaging to the people you have so labeled. I have not seen in any of the court documents that they were considered to be pedophiles. Someone can have sexual relations with a minor but that does not mean they are a pedophile. No. People do not commit crimes because they are horny. No more than divorced/widowed women attack every male they see. These people had illegal sexual relations with minors, were caught, tried, and convicted. This country has swung way beyond the middle ground in sexual abuse cases and hysteria is ruling the day rather than actually looking at the facts. |
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Post by rational on Jul 24, 2010 18:17:48 GMT -5
No, there's some illnesses which are terminal, what. And as the earth gets older, seems to be more and more of those kind of illnesses creeping up on the populations! Like smallpox? Black plague? I think the only reason we see more illnesses is because people live linger and technology can identify more causes of death. Do you have evidence to the contrary? |
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Post by sharonw on Jul 25, 2010 8:45:47 GMT -5
No, there's some illnesses which are terminal, what. And as the earth gets older, seems to be more and more of those kind of illnesses creeping up on the populations! Like smallpox? Black plague? I think the only reason we see more illnesses is because people live linger and technology can identify more causes of death. Do you have evidence to the contrary? Actually, Rat, HIV is perhaps worse then any other of the diseases you've mentioned...yes, medical science has found medications that "prolong" that misery.....my heart goes out to the HIV sufferers....they've not only lost good health, but it comes with a stigma that desocializes the sufferers. Also the cancer treatments can also prolong life and sometimes even ends up making the patient a total different person unable to live life as others do. Does all these treatments do that much by prolonging life? Some do, a lot don't. I'm thinking of a young worker who underwent therapy for a rare cancer and this therapy was in its' investigative stages...that poor man soon was totally not normal in many ways....I saw tht he suffered worse things then the death that the cancer would have brought to him and in the long run, the treatment killed him with as much suffering and loss of quality of life or more so then the disease itself would have given him. Actually, some of it is from what you've mentioned, the longer lives, but also the exposure of unnatural resources has caused a lot of problems....I wish they'd do a study on what affect the birth control pills have on the population...but there doesn't seem to be enough control cases perhaps to get a real picture. But it sure seems like to me that in the medical field we're facing a lot of immune problems and allergy problems, that were not in the medical science's history....and yes, I know a lot of the old timers used to probably have sinus problems, and allergy problems and that also the increased populations is a factor in the "more" we see. But I'm talking about looking at generations of the same family and seeing the changes. I wish I could get into research on a lot of these things, but I'm too old and there isn't any research situations in the area I've decided to stay in. As always, in hindsight, if I knew back when I was young and full of vigor that I know now, I'd moved to an area that did do such things. There's the Alzheimer's issue....and I strongly suspect if truth were to be found out, a lot of those who have had cardiac issues years ago and been onn certain cardiac medications, one would discover that some of those medications is the culprit. and that' s comes from what I've experienced and seen within my scope of practice and life....but there doesn't seem to be a way to get anyone to look at it from that direction. It's just said that those drugs are what is keeping these people alive, now my questionn to that is..."If the people aren not in control of their lives in any form, what good is extended life"? |
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Post by sharonw on Jul 25, 2010 8:47:43 GMT -5
But Lin, to be fair, this statement is exactly the opposite of what has been taught within the fellowship....our strength is never to be...but weak in ourselves, etc...... I don't agree with that and never did. We have to have a resolve or strength,to stand for what we know to be right. All through the bible we read of strong people,who did great things for their day. It is good you've never agreed with that concept or doctrine, Lin...but many in the fellowship bought it hook line and sinker! And still do, that's why the heavy dependence on the workers is a problem...people think they're NOT supposed to think and do and be strong for themselves! |
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Post by sharonw on Jul 25, 2010 8:57:19 GMT -5
rational, I would like your opinion as to the why, workers and priests are found to be committing CSA, if not pedophiles?
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Post by jhjmr on Jul 25, 2010 12:12:06 GMT -5
You are so correct Sharon. It is not a normal behavior to like young girls or young boys. And if men like young boys, we can add another illness to the list. And when we prey on the young, we are a pedophiles. Pedophiles prey on the young because, they can control them.
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Post by rational on Jul 25, 2010 19:07:38 GMT -5
Actually, Rat, HIV is perhaps worse then any other of the diseases you've mentioned...yes, medical science has found medications that "prolong" that misery.....my heart goes out to the HIV sufferers....they've not only lost good health, but it comes with a stigma that desocializes the sufferers. It is the syphilis of today. No worse an illness and carrying the same social stigma. That should be the choice of the user after they are clearly told what the path will be for treatment and what they can expect without treatment. I know two people who decided to go peacefully into the night without treatment. And then I have known others who obviously listened to Thomas' unsent advice to his father where he advised Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night Hopefully he was the person who made the decision. There have been a number of studies regarding this. The one that comes to mind was a study done on men in the Italian army. The outcome was that the men from less hygienic homes and homes with older siblings had had more childhood diseases and showed fewer allergies. The hypothesis was that a cleaner environment led to fewer childhood infections and resulted in an increase in allergies. Hindsight is always so clear. What you are seeing is a definite link but the link is not with the heart medication but because those taking the medication have heart problems. It has long been known that there is a strong link between heart health and brain health. The link happens with people who are not on any medication. No heart disease or related conditions equals a lower risk of developing dementia, including Alzheimer’s. |
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