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Post by kiwi on Oct 8, 2009 13:06:15 GMT -5
How can the workers bear power and authority over the Bible should there be falliability found? That is an excellent question!!! How can they, and why do they? Scott But do they? and I still want to know, How can they?
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 8, 2009 13:08:52 GMT -5
Saying things like this, however, "Salvation is absolutely impossible for those outside the church" is rather ignorant, and not true. I think this is very true and we have been told by our head worker we are not to make such a judgement and I tend to agree with Him. Is he by chance one of those overseers that believe and say just the opposite like gells pointed out? Does he go so far to say that people outside of the truth fellowship are just as likely to be saved as those that are in? (and how do you personally feel about that statement? Do you think that others outside of the truth fellowship are just as likely to be saved?) Scott
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 8, 2009 13:12:07 GMT -5
How can the workers bear power and authority over the Bible should there be falliability found? That is an excellent question!!! How can they, and why do they? Scott But do they? and I still want to know, How can they? Well... you are the one seeming to think that there is 'fallibility' to be found in the bible, and if there is then it leaves the need for a worker to tell people that the bible is telling a lie and what it should say. Scott
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Post by kiwi on Oct 8, 2009 13:31:15 GMT -5
I think this is very true and we have been told by our head worker we are not to make such a judgement and I tend to agree with Him. Is he by chance one of those overseers that believe and say just the opposite like gells pointed out? Does he go so far to say that people outside of the truth fellowship are just as likely to be saved as those that are in? (and how do you personally feel about that statement? Do you think that others outside of the truth fellowship are just as likely to be saved?) Scott Yes he has said as much. Yes I believe such. We do not know the bounds of Gods love and mercy and that is why we pray for the souls of men no matter where they are or who they are. God is the one who is doing the choosing not us.
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Post by kiwi on Oct 8, 2009 13:34:21 GMT -5
But do they? and I still want to know, How can they? Well... you are the one seeming to think that there is 'fallibility' to be found in the bible, and if there is then it leaves the need for a worker to tell people that the bible is telling a lie and what it should say. Scott No I don't think there is fallibility in the Bible. My question was, How can they have power and authority over the Bible? Regardless of what's inside it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2009 13:37:58 GMT -5
Yes kiwi, it goes like this:
"Dear Lord we are so sad for all the world that is not part of our kingdom. Have mercy on their souls."
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Post by kiwi on Oct 8, 2009 13:44:27 GMT -5
Yes kiwi, it goes like this: "Dear Lord we are so sad for all the world that is not part of our kingdom. Have mercy on their souls." I find what you wrote very unbecoming and offensive. For those who have prayers like I suggested may they forgive your crassness
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 8, 2009 13:52:06 GMT -5
No I don't think there is fallibility in the Bible. My question was, How can they have power and authority over the Bible? Regardless of what's inside it. They can't and they don't. Any power and authority they have over those in the church is given to them by those in the church. If a worker tells someone to do something which is not scriptural, then those in the church have every right to confront them about it. Likewise if a worker is preaching something other than what is in the bible than the church members should kick them out of the church. That holds true in the church I attend also. Scott
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gells
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Post by gells on Oct 8, 2009 13:52:41 GMT -5
Okay Scott, I'll mention one of the overseers that spoke of this. He spoke of his mother who was a very devout Catholic, and that she had a wonderful relationship with the Lord. He said that she was very close to the Lord, and that he would like to believe that she was saved. He did not go as far to say that she was saved, as he mentioned that nobody knows what God's judgment is. This was the current overseer of IL/IN that spoke of these things. He went into greater detail, but I don't remember the specifics.
Another comment on what you have said, Scott. You asked "Salvation is just as possible for those outside of the truth fellowship as it is for those that are in."
So here's a question for you, Do you think that those that are in this fellowship think that everyone that is in the fellowship is saved?? I don't think anyone can claim that they know. It isn't a matter of whether you are "in the fellowship" or not. What of those that have never heard of this way?? Its absolutely ridiculous to say that there is less of a chance of salvation. As I stated before, salvation isn't based off of if you belong to a group or not, it is based off of ones own relationship with the Lord. I think that the workers would agree with me about that statement.
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 8, 2009 13:58:10 GMT -5
Thank you gells! I think that it is important for people to know how their church leaders feel on issues such as this. It helps others to know that it is okay for them to care about their brothers and sisters in Christ who attend other churches. If a person sets themselves apart from other Christians, then they lose out on a LOT of great fellowship and encouragement. Any thoughts on the matter from some of the other overseers that feel this way? If so, I would like to hear what they spoke of also! Scott
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Post by Dubious Disciple (xdc) on Oct 8, 2009 14:15:54 GMT -5
I'm impressed with GIC's list. It does not address homeless ministry (unless I missed it) nor the importance of being an example of "a people called out" though.
I was surprised by the "third sacrament": The ministry (Holy Orders) - God calls, sanctions, and marks individuals for the ministry. Although I agree, I wouldn't have put it in the same category as the two rituals recognized as instructed by God.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2009 15:36:14 GMT -5
Yes kiwi, it goes like this: "Dear Lord we are so sad for all the world that is not part of our kingdom. Have mercy on their souls." I find what you wrote very unbecoming and offensive. For those who have prayers like I suggested may they forgive your crassness Let's get real and honest here kiwi. You and I both know what it means when meeting people pray for "those outside this way" or "those in the world". It means everyone who is not a part of the meetings. I think it's time you faced that fact. I find your charge of "unbecoming and offensive" and "crassness" to be crocodile tears. The truth is unbecoming and offensive only to those who have no interest in it. That said, I do understand that your overseer is a half step ahead of his peers on many of the issues. However, like many workers who would like to move ahead, he fears the people and his peers so his private utterances will not reflect his public ones until he perceives it safe to do so.
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Post by sharon on Oct 8, 2009 15:45:17 GMT -5
Kiwi, I doubt serious that everybody on TMB knows exactly what you DO believe...you've never spoken anything in such a manner as to state what your believe...you have usually been negative in regards to others' remarks.....so I'm not sure that tells what you belief but more of what you don't agree to or about! Unless, of course, you're just disagreeable??? I have mentioned many a time what I believe. To love the Lord my God with all my heart, soul, mind, spirit and strenght and my neighbour as myself Okay, but why do you NOT believe to do as the first commandment says, then? The way you have this worded is NOT like the first commandment.
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gells
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Post by gells on Oct 8, 2009 17:22:30 GMT -5
I find what you wrote very unbecoming and offensive. For those who have prayers like I suggested may they forgive your crassness Let's get real and honest here kiwi. You and I both know what it means when meeting people pray for "those outside this way" or "those in the world". It means everyone who is not a part of the meetings. I think it's time you faced that fact. I find your charge of "unbecoming and offensive" and "crassness" to be crocodile tears. The truth is unbecoming and offensive only to those who have no interest in it. That said, I do understand that your overseer is a half step ahead of his peers on many of the issues. However, like many workers who would like to move ahead, he fears the people and his peers so his private utterances will not reflect his public ones until he perceives it safe to do so. So was that a public or private utterance, as you seem to know which it was? The fact of the matter is, is that I have had several wonderful conversations with this man, and I have also heard him from the platform. He has such a wonderful spirit, and there is a love for Gods word that he has, and anyone that has met this man or heard him speak I think would agree with me. His words and actions match when speaking to a large gathering, or when he is having a one on one conversation. It doesn't matter who someone speaks to when they have the right spirit. We heard about this at meeting last night. We heard about the women at the well, and also of the women that was caught in the act of transgression, and Jesus simply told her to go and sin no more. There is just that spirit that Jesus had that was so nonjudgmental and so loving. Its simply wonderful when you can see Jesus in others, because when you have that love and spirit that Jesus had, you just simply cannot hide it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2009 18:11:14 GMT -5
No overseer has yet preached from the platform acceptance of other Christians as brothers and sisters in Christ. I say that because it is so far removed from belief by the workers (or fear of preaching it) that any such preaching would be reported widely.
I have no doubt Leslie White is a lovely man, as is Alan Richardson in NZ. That's not at issue here. Neither men are hardliners and both have the potential of accepting other Christians but neither are prepared to state that publicly.....if they do in fact secretly believe that.
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gells
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Post by gells on Oct 8, 2009 18:29:36 GMT -5
Yet don't his decisions regarding those that reside in the states that he oversees reflect those thoughts and feelings? Why do these things need to be said from the platform?? As the old proverb goes, actions speak louder than words.
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Post by sharon on Oct 8, 2009 18:43:08 GMT -5
I think perhaps the "prayers" of these particular men might tell more of what they really believe...as it was said, it is most often heard in the prayers "We pray for those outside the kingdom. Those who don't know the true way." And there can be NO guessing to what they mean. WHEN this changes the wording will change as well.
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Post by CherieKropp on Oct 8, 2009 18:53:46 GMT -5
Gell: LW saying "I would like to believe..." is a loooong ways from saying "I believe..." You don't understand truth-speak. When they want to, they play with words. You are being hoodwinked if you believe LW believes any Catholic is saved--without first professing to be a 2x2. Also, it is quite a feather in a workers cap to get a Catholic to become a Protestant 2x2...and the statements you mentioned that he said are very broad and open ended...and were what your fiancee wanted to hear. He needed to know that if he professed, his actions woudl not be construed as consigning his dear (deceased) Catholic relatives to hell. It frequently happens when outsiders get close to professing...they want to know what about their very good Christian relatives who aren't/weren't professing? Where are they? Where are they going? (Heaven or hell). They ask the workers the same type question your fiancee did. The workers are very good at dancing around and leaving their replies open enough for the prospect to draw the inferences they want to believe...even tho the workers know they are believing something the workers do not believe. "God is the judge" is the main theme. I've heard personal stories about this happening time and time again. Later after they profess, they find out they were not told the "whole truth" about the matter. And sad to say, many/possibly most F&W believe Catholics are for sure going to hell. If you want many more examples about how the workers often "reply" (without really truthfully answering) questions...check this out: Before You Ask...
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gells
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Post by gells on Oct 8, 2009 18:58:00 GMT -5
sorry i worded that differently than Leslie did. I didn't quote him verbatim. Also he wasn't speaking to my fiance and I about professing. So please stop the assuming.
Oh and by the way, my fiances family is not Catholic. He grew up Catholic, but his family is no longer, and haven't been for several years. He stopped going to that church long before I came along.
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Post by someguy on Oct 8, 2009 19:17:31 GMT -5
Yet don't his decisions regarding those that reside in the states that he oversees reflect those thoughts and feelings? Why do these things need to be said from the platform?? As the old proverb goes, actions speak louder than words. Clearly you are in some sort of denial about how large the problem with exclusivity is...workers who believe otherwise ie that Christians are saved need to publicly state these beliefs in order to counteract the opposite held beliefs by the large masses of people. However this will most likely never happen as it will result in them losing their position. The reason why most of us left is because the opposite is preached continuously from the platform. The "way" the perfect way with workers and meetings in a home is constantly preached. Naively people believe its not that big of a problem.
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gells
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Post by gells on Oct 8, 2009 19:32:33 GMT -5
There are also others who will hear only what they want to hear and pretend that other stuff isn't said. They will also twist others words to make them sound different than they really are. I've read these websites that are completely bashing what I believe. They are designed to do exactly this and only use whats convenient for their argument and leave out the rest. They also take phrases that can be completely neutral and turn them into something completely arbitrary. I get the point that this is exactly what this forum is for, but I would like to think that people can grow up and act like adults. You also speak of these things as if these things aren't problems that don't exist in other religions. I don't know how many times that I have been persecuted because I haven't baptized my daughter, or that I don't plan on getting married in a church.. Honestly, I have never known a church to be so condescending and judgmental as some Catholics and many catholic churches. I can go there if we are going to throw stones. Nevertheless, some of my best friends are Catholic and believe many other faiths and I will not judge them because they don't believe the same things that I do.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2009 19:53:38 GMT -5
Yet don't his decisions regarding those that reside in the states that he oversees reflect those thoughts and feelings? Why do these things need to be said from the platform?? As the old proverb goes, actions speak louder than words. Actions which are not seen are not heard. Preaching from the platform is the only way to get an unequivocal message delivered to all. Many workers still seem to see fit to engage in church bashing and outside Christian bashing......all from the platform. It's high time for workers to reverse the habit of condemning others and start to teach people how to see God working in lives beyond our fellowship. That way friends and workers can be more proactively useful to God in this lifetime.
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Post by StAnne on Oct 8, 2009 20:08:30 GMT -5
Here's my effort toward a sincere and honest assessment of the majority view within the Fellowship regarding key doctrines. God* God is not a trinity * There is only one God, the Father * Jesus Christ is the Son of God and is divine but never to be called "God" * The Holy Spirit is an impersonal force that emanates from God and Christ Scripture* Strong belief in solo scriptura which is not the same as sola scriptura - the former emphasises the totality of knowledge about the truth exists solely in the Scriptures and that no additional understanding or clarification can come forth from any source outside of the Scriptures. * Emphasis on the practical component of the New Testament * Many professing people - particularly Gen Xers - deny that the Scriptures are infallible or inerrant. Many believe the Scriptures contain mistakes. Whenever there is doubt about some element of Scripture, the ultimate authority are the practices and behaviour of Western professing people. * Workers are authoritative teachers of the Bible, but not the only authoritative teachers. Some believe they are fallible, others hold the Workers as inerrant teachers. Sin* There is no original sin. Human beings are born innocent and are schooled in sin by the environment and a wilful human nature. * Human nature must be erased and replaced with a divine nature. * Strong emphasis on free will - both sin and salvation are voluntary choices. Sacraments* There are three sacraments * Baptism by immersion - does not of itself revoke sins * The emblems (Lord's Supper) - which are only signifiers, but many maintain are also conduits of grace, and that by eating sins are removed. * The ministry (Holy Orders) - God calls, sanctions, and marks individuals for the ministry Church practice* Church buildings are markers of false religiosity * Public collections of money do not belong in worship and must be avoided * Organ and piano musical accompanyment only * Unrehearsed preaching - no notes must accompany the minister Salvation* Salvation is never assured until after death * It is possible to lose salvation at any time * Jesus "makes it possible" for us to live a righteous life * Jesus atones for sins, but does not justify - justification is dependant on our actions * Justification and sanctification are the same thing * We are justified by a life of ceaseless self-denial and personal sacrifice * We are not saved by grace alone through faith alone * Grace is power that God grants the believer to accomplish good works * Salvation is largely dependant on persevering in the church to the end * Salvation is absolutely impossible for those outside the church This is my honest and heartfelt assessment of what is a majority opinion from my experience. Obviously there are exceptions, and I do not promise that this account is accurate in all places, at all times. Nice. When is it believed that the Holy Spirit is conferred? At baptism? Curious...is sacrament accepted 2x2 terminology? Or that remains to be seen?
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Post by sharon on Oct 8, 2009 20:11:52 GMT -5
No, it's always been bread and wine as far as I know...Eucharist is unheard of, sacrament might be used by a more educated friend or worker.
Also, it's pretty much an open issue as to when the Holy Spirit being conferred.....however I am not sure that anyone is ever sure when another has the Holy Spirit's baptism, that is within the fellowship, so to speak!
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Post by JO on Oct 8, 2009 20:15:53 GMT -5
FWIW: I have good memories of Leslie White, both from my private chat with him and from his word in the convention meetings.
If all workers were like him we wouldn't have the problems that we have.
Unfortunately his effectiveness is limited by his hardline colleagues. He is undoubtably an influence for good, but it will take more than one man to change the ministry and fellowship for the better.
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Post by sharon on Oct 8, 2009 20:30:36 GMT -5
FWIW: I have good memories of Leslie White, both from my private chat with him and from his word in the convention meetings. If all workers were like him we wouldn't have the problems that we have. Unfortunately his effectiveness is limited by his hardline colleagues. He is undoubtably an influence for good, but it will take more than one man to change the ministry and fellowship for the better. LW is one worker who has learned from his mistakes, I believe! Some of the things he had to withstand or be a part of nearly killed him while he was in CO! But that near death experience brought out of him the prophet that he is. IMO
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Post by StAnne on Oct 8, 2009 20:39:43 GMT -5
No, it's always been bread and wine as far as I know...Eucharist is unheard of, sacrament might be used by a more educated friend or worker. Yes, that's right. However, I was really thinking about where he listed the three Sacraments--Baptism, Communion, and Holy Orders...wondering if sacrament is even in 2x2 terminology. I see there's been a comment on "the homeless ministry". I'm surprised there hasn't been more comment about it being listed as 'Holy Orders'.True. But...since baptism is conferred using the Trinitarian formula of Father, Son and Holy Spirit...I wondered if that was believed to be a conferring of and receiving of the HS. Who knows...
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Post by open mind on Oct 8, 2009 20:43:41 GMT -5
I have never heard a single worker say, (either in preaching or private) that anyone out of 'the way' could be saved, here in NSW, Australia....
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