|
Post by Scott Ross on Oct 22, 2009 15:21:13 GMT -5
With regards to institutionalized good works, I wouldn't condemn groups who do it. In fact I applaud their efforts. However there are good aid organizations out there already as What mentioned, and I feel its wrong to condemn groups like the F&W for not using the congregation's donations for aid projects. Somewhere I read about Jack Carroll encouraging the friends to give to the Red Cross. The message of Jesus was to have a compassion within us that cannot help but reach out to those in need around us. The religious institutions didn't help the man robbed and beaten on the side of the road - it was an individual, a despised Samaritan at that, who did what needed to be done. And on the doctrinal side, Acts 6 also indicates that the priority for workers and apostles should be telling the Gospel. However, our deaconship ( if you consider that Stephen at al are deacons ) could be better. I agree that telling the gospel is the priority for our workers. (we call overseas missionaries workers also...) Which do you feel is the best form of telling the gospel, visiting with someone who is impoverished and telling them about the gospel message and what it means in their life, or to show them what the gospel message is through love for them and their situation. Both give the 'message', but when you have people that come to your clinic for help, and kids get an education, and wells get dug, and...... Which form of message do you feel is going to be more readily accepted? One of words or one of actions? (not said to put down those that carry the message but simply as a question to think about) One of the things I would like to point out is that those called to be 'workers' are supported by the church and not required to fund their mission by donations in the countries they are laboring in. (much like my cousin who is a professing worker that has a batch and a credit card to meet her needs in another country actually) The emphasis is on giving, helping and teaching. Not JUST in spiritual matters, but also in physical health and welfare as well. Scott
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Oct 22, 2009 15:31:04 GMT -5
However there are good aid organizations out there already as What mentioned, and I feel its wrong to condemn groups like the F&W for not using the congregation's donations for aid projects. Somewhere I read about Jack Carroll encouraging the friends to give to the Red Cross.When we donate to the church it is FOR the church. Part of being a church is to spread the gospel message in any way we can, much as Paul preached about. I am not condemning your church practices. It is your church, and the members of any church are the ones that determine how they are going to go about helping spread the gospel message to the world in accordance with the Great Commission. What I am trying to point out is that the truth fellowship uses the money issue and giving to the church as a means to condemn other churches. (and I am not referring to the individuals in the church by that statement) The difference between giving to some of the aid organizations as opposed to donating to the Christian organizations is that although both look to the physical welfare of those they are helping, the Christian organizations also look to help with the spiritual needs of those they are helping. Scott
|
|
|
Post by ithascome on Oct 22, 2009 15:47:13 GMT -5
jesusonly
I hope you read my post ... I bolded the words We being unorganized, got nothing! for a purpose... to show you that being organized is a Good thing... Don't you think Willie Jamieson, Leo Stancliff, Cecil Barrett and Ernest Stanley and my Dad would have been better off if the 2x2s had been organized... what if they had starved to death... what would God's Judgment of the 2x2s be... I can only assume. They were in that POW camp because of 2x2 work... don't you think the 2x2s should have been able to help them... would that be God's will? Why should the Red Cross have to do all the work?
1 Timothy 6:18.. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share.
this IMO does not just apply to an individual... it also applies to a church that has much... and is able to give to the needy.
|
|
|
Post by emy on Oct 22, 2009 16:14:14 GMT -5
...so we'll all be grafted, adopted into the Jewish nature.... Doesn't this approach what was warned about in Heb. 6? To return to serving the Law? My understanding is that the believing Jews will be grafted into the Vine - the Christian nature. (John 15 and Romans)
|
|
|
Post by emy on Oct 22, 2009 16:26:25 GMT -5
Of course I'm fine with your church and its approach. I don't want to discuss too much of the kinds of things we do. My wife is pretty active in many areas, but I have had my nose pretty close to the grindstone but feel I should be doing a lot more and am getting to the place in life where maybe I can. I really admire the Mennonites in our area who are very active in overseas relief. They aren't actually very large in number, but the Mennonite World Relief Committee has a huge impact overseas. I think there are more things that the friends could do, but I won't go into it. I feel I need to do a little more walking and not so much talking in this area myself. Since a majority of the f&w operate this way, maybe there is more being done than we are aware of?
|
|
|
Post by emy on Oct 22, 2009 16:31:57 GMT -5
<< The difference between giving to some of the aid organizations as opposed to donating to the Christian organizations is that although both look to the physical welfare of those they are helping, the Christian organizations also look to help with the spiritual needs of those they are helping. Scott >> Maybe. If their resources, including physical strength, are not exhausted by meeting the physical welfare.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Oct 22, 2009 17:14:13 GMT -5
<< The difference between giving to some of the aid organizations as opposed to donating to the Christian organizations is that although both look to the physical welfare of those they are helping, the Christian organizations also look to help with the spiritual needs of those they are helping. Scott >> Maybe. If their resources, including physical strength, are not exhausted by meeting the physical welfare. Not real sure if I am following you on this one emy. What resources are you referring to? Here is a link about one such group. The couple who do this sold all they had because they felt the call to go and help. Various churches help in this endeavor as it is nondenominational. The lady came and spoke in our church a while back, and showed pictures and shared in their struggles and triumphs as they help the people in Sudan. For those that think that they are 'living off of other's money', you should hear their story and understand just how they have to live. Families being beaten to death within five mile of the compound where they live, watching orphans die due to lack of medical help and all sorts of trials and tribulations in the area. www.hrtn.org/ Scott
|
|
|
Post by sharon on Oct 22, 2009 18:46:52 GMT -5
"Interesting. That isn't the way I read the bible. I read of charitable works being done by the church. I also read of things which I do not look on as being so much of a spiritual aspect also. "
Reminded me that the Apostles appointed men that were well respected and knowledgeable about Jesus to take care of charitable needs....plus they preached the gospel as well....Phillip, Stephen....etc.
|
|
|
Post by sharon on Oct 22, 2009 19:00:19 GMT -5
...so we'll all be grafted, adopted into the Jewish nature.... Doesn't this approach what was warned about in Heb. 6? To return to serving the Law? My understanding is that the believing Jews will be grafted into the Vine - the Christian nature. (John 15 and Romans) The Jews are God's chosen people and we must never forget that. It is also true that God has turned from them to the Gentiles "to make them envious" so that they will return to loving the Lord God as they should. The Jews were like unfruitful branches that have been pruned away from the "vine" which is Jesus and the Gentiles that have faith in the blood of Jesus Christ are "grafted" into the "chosen people of God"...never can the grafted take on a "nature" of the Gentile because they then will be pruned away as well. But they must bear the fruit of "God's chosen people" or face elimination as well. HOWEVEAR we cannot forego or prevent the "grafting" back in of the Jews...that will come to pass...we must ALL bear the "nature" of the Jews as God's chosen people...and that is through the blood of Christ we will cease to be as Canaanites and be as Jews! It is a type of what God chooses as His chosen people and there can never be a doubt that God chose the Jews, the children of Israel. NO WHERE did I say we were returning to serve the Law because the Law has been completed by Jesus Christ...every Jot and Tittle was filled by Jesus Christ. ONLY through believing on Jesus Christ can either Gentile or Jew come before God, and know salvation through faith. That scripture you referred to was to the JEWS in Paul's day, they could NOT turn loose of the Law....they were DEPENDING on the outward manifestation (form) of salvation! They were not "believing on Jesus Christ." IT IS JESUS CHRIST and BELIEVING ON HIM that nets salvation by grace through faith! PERIOD! The Jewish Law of Moses is a schoolmaster, as is the Gentile Christian church denominations. Those end right there....bringing people into knowledge of being fair to their brethren, loving their neighbor as themself. The commandments will always be essential to "christian" life....,Jesus said so.
|
|
|
Post by ithascome on Oct 22, 2009 19:20:55 GMT -5
Good post sharon... also it might need to be noted that more and more Jews are starting to believe in Christ as their Savior... I believe there will come a day that they will out number the Pauline Christians... and they will lead the way... perhaps that will be the end of times ... spoken of in Revelation.
|
|
|
Post by sharon on Oct 22, 2009 19:33:02 GMT -5
Good post sharon... also it might need to be noted that more and more Jews are starting to believe in Christ as their Savior... I believe there will come a day that they will out number the Pauline Christians... and they will lead the way... perhaps that will be the end of times ... spoken of in Revelation. I think you may be on to something vital....there are to be an hundred and fourty-four thousand "remnant" of the Jews to be counted in and then I think it is over...time that is for the "pre-Jesus" reign.....I feel Jesus is coming soon, very soon! Too much "truths" have been made known and it says that we will be made known as we are known......that comes about before Jesus comes in the meeting in the air to claim His own...it will be surprising to us all who is "chosen" and who isn't.
|
|
|
Post by JO on Oct 22, 2009 19:56:00 GMT -5
"Interesting. That isn't the way I read the bible. I read of charitable works being done by the church. I also read of things which I do not look on as being so much of a spiritual aspect also. " Reminded me that the Apostles appointed men that were well respected and knowledgeable about Jesus to take care of charitable needs....plus they preached the gospel as well....Phillip, Stephen....etc. Sharon, I know as Christians we should have caring hearts and serve our fellow man whether believer or not. Can you point me to the scripture that refers to charitable works being done by the church for people outside the church?
|
|
|
Post by ithascome on Oct 22, 2009 20:02:43 GMT -5
what church? ;D
Body of Christ.... or 2x2church?
|
|
gells
Senior Member
Posts: 744
|
Post by gells on Oct 22, 2009 20:09:21 GMT -5
"Interesting. That isn't the way I read the bible. I read of charitable works being done by the church. I also read of things which I do not look on as being so much of a spiritual aspect also. " Reminded me that the Apostles appointed men that were well respected and knowledgeable about Jesus to take care of charitable needs....plus they preached the gospel as well....Phillip, Stephen....etc. Sharon, I know as Christians we should have caring hearts and serve our fellow man whether believer or not. Can you point me to the scripture that refers to charitable works being done by the church for people outside the church? Matt 5:44 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." vs. 47, "if you salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others?" KJV
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Oct 22, 2009 20:27:46 GMT -5
And on the doctrinal side, Acts 6 also indicates that the priority for workers and apostles should be telling the Gospel. However, our deaconship ( if you consider that Stephen at al are deacons ) could be better. I agree that telling the gospel is the priority for our workers. (we call overseas missionaries workers also...) Which do you feel is the best form of telling the gospel, visiting with someone who is impoverished and telling them about the gospel message and what it means in their life, or to show them what the gospel message is through love for them and their situation. Both give the 'message', but when you have people that come to your clinic for help, and kids get an education, and wells get dug, and...... Which form of message do you feel is going to be more readily accepted? One of words or one of actions? (not said to put down those that carry the message but simply as a question to think about) One of the things I would like to point out is that those called to be 'workers' are supported by the church and not required to fund their mission by donations in the countries they are laboring in. (much like my cousin who is a professing worker that has a batch and a credit card to meet her needs in another country actually) The emphasis is on giving, helping and teaching. Not JUST in spiritual matters, but also in physical health and welfare as well. Scott Care must be taken that the "action" or looking after carnal needs is not given only to those who are or become Christians. It has to be given without partiality. That's one more reason why it's best for workers/ evangelists to not be involved directly and that taken care of by the deaconship.
|
|
|
Post by sharon on Oct 22, 2009 20:33:35 GMT -5
"Interesting. That isn't the way I read the bible. I read of charitable works being done by the church. I also read of things which I do not look on as being so much of a spiritual aspect also. " Reminded me that the Apostles appointed men that were well respected and knowledgeable about Jesus to take care of charitable needs....plus they preached the gospel as well....Phillip, Stephen....etc. Sharon, I know as Christians we should have caring hearts and serve our fellow man whether believer or not. Can you point me to the scripture that refers to charitable works being done by the church for people outside the church? I'm not sure exactly what kind of evidence you're looking for....but in Jesus' teachings He spoke of the parable of the "Good Samaritan"...which was someone the Jews never thought could do ANY good at all. Then Phillip had to have had an open loving heart to have been drawn to the "ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH" didn't He. The "overlap" of the Jews' idea that anyone outside their race was beneath them and not worthy of notice seems to have permeated the truth's fellowship and I think that is totally against the teachings of Jesus....we have already had it mentioned on this thread that Jesus ate with the publicans and sinners....He consorted with the demon-possessed, Jesus had NO fear of Himself being spiritually molested by those whom others felt repulsed by or avoided at all cost. Jesus' work in the Israeli ghettos is quite well told in the gospels.
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Oct 22, 2009 20:38:58 GMT -5
jesusonly I hope you read my post ... I bolded the words We being unorganized, got nothing! for a purpose... to show you that being organized is a Good thing... Don't you think Willie Jamieson, Leo Stancliff, Cecil Barrett and Ernest Stanley and my Dad would have been better off if the 2x2s had been organized... what if they had starved to death... what would God's Judgment of the 2x2s be... I can only assume. They were in that POW camp because of 2x2 work... don't you think the 2x2s should have been able to help them... would that be God's will? Why should the Red Cross have to do all the work? 1 Timothy 6:18.. Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. this IMO does not just apply to an individual... it also applies to a church that has much... and is able to give to the needy. What does it say about those "organized" Christians that they wouldn't share basic food necessities with those who got nothing?? (You don't have to answer, just pointing out that there are different ways to read any situation.)
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Oct 22, 2009 20:48:27 GMT -5
Of course I'm fine with your church and its approach. I don't want to discuss too much of the kinds of things we do. My wife is pretty active in many areas, but I have had my nose pretty close to the grindstone but feel I should be doing a lot more and am getting to the place in life where maybe I can. I really admire the Mennonites in our area who are very active in overseas relief. They aren't actually very large in number, but the Mennonite World Relief Committee has a huge impact overseas. I think there are more things that the friends could do, but I won't go into it. I feel I need to do a little more walking and not so much talking in this area myself. Since a majority of the f&w operate this way, maybe there is more being done than we are aware of? No question. But there are also some who say, all charities are crooked and "worldly". They are not uncharitable people but give only to the ministry. I think that is really only ignorance; it certainly contravenes Christ's teaching. I don't mind telling people we support World Vision, for example. I think it's a great organization. I tell them because I'm hoping they would feel at liberty to do the same.
|
|
|
Post by JO on Oct 22, 2009 20:51:09 GMT -5
Sharon, I know as Christians we should have caring hearts and serve our fellow man whether believer or not. Can you point me to the scripture that refers to charitable works being done by the church for people outside the church? I'm not sure exactly what kind of evidence you're looking for....but in Jesus' teachings He spoke of the parable of the "Good Samaritan"...which was someone the Jews never thought could do ANY good at all. Then Phillip had to have had an open loving heart to have been drawn to the "ETHIOPIAN EUNUCH" didn't He. The "overlap" of the Jews' idea that anyone outside their race was beneath them and not worthy of notice seems to have permeated the truth's fellowship and I think that is totally against the teachings of Jesus....we have already had it mentioned on this thread that Jesus ate with the publicans and sinners....He consorted with the demon-possessed, Jesus had NO fear of Himself being spiritually molested by those whom others felt repulsed by or avoided at all cost. Jesus' work in the Israeli ghettos is quite well told in the gospels. Yes, its clear from scripture that as individuals we should love everyone and reach out to help people in need. But can you point me to scripture referring to corporate giving other than to our fellow believers?
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Oct 22, 2009 20:53:54 GMT -5
Sharon, I know as Christians we should have caring hearts and serve our fellow man whether believer or not. Can you point me to the scripture that refers to charitable works being done by the church for people outside the church? Matt 5:44 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you." vs. 47, "if you salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others?" KJV I think what jo is getting at is that we don't find support in Scripture for ministry being directly involved in aid effort. It's pretty easy for a church to get around this. You have separate people who look after each. But people who have dedicated their lives to ministering spiritually should not be encumbered with the 'physical' needs of either the congregation or the population. Refer to Acts 6. I don't see that this constrains the church in any way, collectively. Collectively the church, or the people in the church can still minister to those with needs. Whoops, crossed posts. JO can correct me if I am wrong.
|
|
|
Post by emy on Oct 22, 2009 21:08:19 GMT -5
The Jews are God's chosen people and we must never forget that. It is also true that God has turned from them to the Gentiles "to make them envious" so that they will return to loving the Lord God as they should. The Jews were like unfruitful branches that have been pruned away from the "vine" which is Jesus and the Gentiles that have faith in the blood of Jesus Christ are "grafted" into the "chosen people of God"...never can the grafted take on a "nature" of the Gentile because they then will be pruned away as well. But they must bear the fruit of "God's chosen people" or face elimination as well. HOWEVEAR we cannot forego or prevent the "grafting" back in of the Jews...that will come to pass...we must ALL bear the "nature" of the Jews as God's chosen people...and that is through the blood of Christ we will cease to be as Canaanites and be as Jews! It is a type of what God chooses as His chosen people and there can never be a doubt that God chose the Jews, the children of Israel. NO WHERE did I say we were returning to serve the Law because the Law has been completed by Jesus Christ...every Jot and Tittle was filled by Jesus Christ. ONLY through believing on Jesus Christ can either Gentile or Jew come before God, and know salvation through faith. That scripture you referred to was to the JEWS in Paul's day, they could NOT turn loose of the Law....they were DEPENDING on the outward manifestation (form) of salvation! They were not "believing on Jesus Christ." IT IS JESUS CHRIST and BELIEVING ON HIM that nets salvation by grace through faith! PERIOD! The Jewish Law of Moses is a schoolmaster, as is the Gentile Christian church denominations. Those end right there....bringing people into knowledge of being fair to their brethren, loving their neighbor as themself. The commandments will always be essential to "christian" life....,Jesus said so. So is the Vine we are all part of or grafted into the Jewish people? I don't see it that way. God had chosen people BEFORE the children of Israel. Abraham was one. Noah was another. We read in the NT that it was their belief in a Savior that saved them. Thus the Vine, God's chosen ones - or, as I would rather think of it, Jesus - are those who believe in Jesus. Gentiles are grafted in to the Vine of believers and when Jews believe, they are re-grafted after being cut off when they rejected Jesus. Here's another thought (not mine - it was shared): Present-day, non-believers who get cut off for unbelief or unfruitfulness (see John 15) can also be re-grafted if they are grafted in again and draw from the source, the Vine.
|
|
|
Post by sharon on Oct 22, 2009 21:09:26 GMT -5
"I think what jo is getting at is that we don't find support in Scripture for ministry being directly involved in aid effort. It's pretty easy for a church to get around this. You have separate people who look after each. But people who have dedicated their lives to ministering spiritually should not be encumbered with the 'physical' needs of either the congregation or the population. Refer to Acts 6. I don't see that this constrains the church in any way, collectively. Collectively the church, or the people in the church can still minister to those with needs.
Whoops, crossed posts. JO can correct me if I am wrong."
I think the simple example that there were 7 men picked out by the Apostles to take care of the physical needs is example enough...Now we see some evidence that these 7 men were also "ministers" in the spiritual sense....Phillip/Ethiopian eunuch and Stephen's sermon before the unbelievers. So they were ministers...but they held a different office to the JESUS-SELECTED APOSTLES.
|
|
gells
Senior Member
Posts: 744
|
Post by gells on Oct 22, 2009 21:10:02 GMT -5
maybe not ministry, but those that follow the will of God, would follow scripture.. Isn't the ministry claiming to follow the bible??
|
|
|
Post by JO on Oct 22, 2009 21:19:54 GMT -5
I think the simple example that there were 7 men picked out by the Apostles to take care of the physical needs is example enough...Now we see some evidence that these 7 men were also "ministers" in the spiritual sense....Phillip/Ethiopian eunuch and Stephen's sermon before the unbelievers. So they were ministers...but they held a different office to the JESUS-SELECTED APOSTLES. Were those deacons not chosen to distribute aid to the needy members of the church? I can't think of any precedent for a church organization to distribute aid to people outside the church. I'm not suggesting its wrong to do that - just that its wrong to put the 2x2s on a guilt trip for not replicating the work of the Red Cross, World Vision, etc.
|
|
|
Post by sharon on Oct 22, 2009 21:32:40 GMT -5
I think the simple example that there were 7 men picked out by the Apostles to take care of the physical needs is example enough...Now we see some evidence that these 7 men were also "ministers" in the spiritual sense....Phillip/Ethiopian eunuch and Stephen's sermon before the unbelievers. So they were ministers...but they held a different office to the JESUS-SELECTED APOSTLES. Were those deacons not chosen to distribute aid to the needy members of the church? I can't think of any precedent for a church organization to distribute aid to people outside the church. I'm not suggesting its wrong to do that - just that its wrong to put the 2x2s on a guilt trip for not replicating the work of the Red Cross, World Vision, etc. If the 2X2's get a guilt trip about their non-charitable deeds then perhaps it IS needful. That is to say there ARE those within the fellowship pay heed to taking care of needy brothers, etc. those outside the membership even. The truth's fellowship has "isolated" the membership in such a way, routinely the friends and workers have little knowledge of the great need in the world. And there was a time many years ago that most people had very little...the greatest growing time of the fellowship was during and after the Great Depression and I think it was during those times the workers nearly starved to death and many got sick because of the lack of good food and hygeine.....but they weren't the only ones suffering, but it was "shameful" to the membership that their ministers were suffering such destitution, so it became a requisite to hand all moneys to the workers that could be spared. Then it just was a ball going down hill gathering snow all the way...the more money one secretly gave the better they were treated by the workers who received the money...then it became a great noble thing to will all your worldly endowments to the workers as a bequeathment.....that meant a sure eternity....somewhere along the road the truth's fellowship took on the very spirit that was the impetus for the fellowship's development at the first! Go figure.
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Oct 22, 2009 21:47:15 GMT -5
Angels, Elect & Evil - Doctrine of Angelology Angels are referenced in the Scriptures no less than 300 times.
No. 6: What is the F&W's belief about Angels?
Which of the following statements best describe the beliefs of the F&W? Your beliefs?
This first group pertains mainly to Holy or Elect Angels
A. We believe that God created an innumerable company of spiritual beings known as angels. Although they are a higher order of creation than man, they are created to serve God and to worship Him, and are not to be worshiped We believe that man was made lower than angels; and that while he was in his human body on earth, Christ took a lower place (Heb 2:6-10). A great company of angels are before the throne of God, and are sent as ministering spirits to minister for believers.
B. We believe Angels are spiritual beings created by God to serve Him, though created higher than man. Some, the good angels, have remained obedient to Him and carry out His will, while others, fallen angels, disobeyed, fell from their holy position, and now stand in active opposition to the work and plan of God.
C. We believe Angels are spiritual beings created by God who help carry out His work as agents and messengers and to glorify Him. The Bible presents no specific doctrine of Angels, and assumes that God is attended by a company or host of heavenly beings who are subordinate to Himself and who share His company and reflect His glory and majesty. Angels always appear in relation to God and humanity in the role of servants. There are both good and bad angels, but because bad angels are allied with the devil, or Satan, they have considerably less power and authority than good angels.
D. We believe Angels are a supernatural, heavenly being, a little higher in dignity than man. Their creation was before the creation of man. They are described as “spirits.”
E. We believe Angel is the term applied in Scripture seven different ways: to human messengers, human messengers with a divine message, impersonal providences, bishops, the beings who revolted with Satan, heavenly beings, and the being of pre-eminent excellence known as the "Angel of the Lord."
F. We believe angels are created beings who are spirit in nature. They can take physical form and have intelligence. The following activities are attributed to angels; they praise and glorify God, they communicate God's message to humans, they minister to believers, they execute judgment on the enemies of God, and they will be involved in the Second Coming of Christ.
G. We believe God created beings called angels as beings of praise and as His messengers; one third of these angels rebelled against God, led by an angel called Satan and was cast out of heaven and is now the enemy of the righteous and good; and he will be cast down to hell at Christ's last judgment. (Luke 10:18; I Pet. 5:8; Rev. 20:2)
H. We believe Angels are spirit beings whose office is to do service to the Father and Son in heaven and by His command to intervene in man's affairs upon the earth. They are messengers of God and are not to be worshipped or prayed to. They are not assigned dominion in the Millennial Kingdom. Jesus said in 1Cor.6:3 that the redeemed will reign with Him over the angelic host and judge them. The nature of man is different from that of angels. Mankind is described as "a little lower than the angels" (Heb. 2:5-7).
J. We believe in the existence of specially created beings called angels. These spirit beings are generally invisible and from a human standpoint they are innumerable. They possess separate personalities and bear the image of God. They are basically superior to man, yet inferior to God. There are holy, elect angels and unholy, fallen angels (demons). The elect angels minister in behalf of God to believers, the nations of the world, and to unbelievers. They also had significant ministry to Christ. The fallen angels were persuaded to do so by the fallen angel, Satan. Satan now uses his gifts and abilities to attempt to oppose God at every level and by every possible means. The fallen angels or demons assist Satan in his scheme. Eventually, Satan and all his demons will be cast into the lake of fire.
This second group pertains mainly to Fallen or Evil Angels, Satan, etc.
K. We believe there are angels who were created by God who sinned and became evil. The chief of all evil angels is Satan. He is the great deceiver and opposes God and the work of Christ. His power is limited and can be resisted.
L. We believe the word “angel” has basically the same meaning in both the Old Testament and New Testament i.e., “messenger.” Angels are created spirit beings. They do not have bodies of flesh and blood and sometimes appear as humans. Angels were created perfect and holy but Satan, who was once a holy angel, rebelled against God and a third of the holy angels rebelled with him against God. These rebellious angels are called demons or evil spirits.
M. We believe that Satan was judged at the cross, and that he, a usurper, now rules as the "god of this world;" that at the second coming of Christ, Satan will be bound and cast into the abyss for a thousand years, and after the thousand years he will be loosed for a little season and then "cast into the lake of fire and brimstone," where he "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." (Col 2:15; Rev 20:1-3, 10).
N. We believe that God created an innumerable company of spiritual beings known as angels; that one, "Lucifer, son of the morning"–the highest in rank–sinned through pride, thereby becoming Satan; that a great company of the angels followed him in his moral fall, some of whom became demons and are active as his agents and associates in the prosecution of his unholy purposes, while others who fell are "reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." (2 Pet 2:4; Jude 6).
O. We believe in a devil called Satan, who along with all his angels, called demons or evil spirits, are destined to spend eternity in hell, and now seek to deceive the world, defeat the believers, and destroy the work of God. They can, however, be resisted by believers, who are protected by God and the intercession of Jesus Christ.
P. We believe that Satan is a created angel who rebelled against his Creator and incurred the judgment of God (Is 14:12-17; Ez 28:11-19). He took numerous angels with him in his fall (Mat 25:41) and introduced sin into the human race by his temptation of Eve.
Q. We believe that Satan is the open and declared enemy of God and man; the prince of this world, who has been defeated through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Rom 16:20); and that he shall be eternally punished in the lake of fire.
Subjects covered in Statement of Belief: 1. God (only ONE god, God the Father, creator, attributes, etc.) Pg 5, Post #125 2. Standard of Authority: Bible (inspired, inerrant, Word of God, etc) Pg 1, Post #3 3. Jesus (virgin birth, atonement, substitute, life, death, resurrection; relationship to God, etc) Pg 8, Post #196 4. Holy Spirit (personality and work; indwelling, illumination, relationship to God) Pg 10, Posts #267-268 5. Man & Sin (fall of man, depravity, sin, free will/agency) Pg 11, Post 295 6. Angels (Elect & Evil; Holy & Fallen) Pg 24, Post #662
The doctrines below will follow soon... 7. Salvation (repentance, regeneration/born again, adoption, saving faith, belief, grace, justification, etc) 8. Believers Responsibility (good works, sanctification, security, conduct, evangelism; great commission) 9. The Church/Assembly, Ministers, Evangelism 10. Ordinances ( baptism & communion, Lord’s Day) 11. The Eternal State (Heaven & Hell) 12. Last Things/The Future (end of world, judgment, rewards, 2nd coming of Jesus, resurrection of the dead, etc)
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Oct 22, 2009 21:53:27 GMT -5
"I think what jo is getting at is that we don't find support in Scripture for ministry being directly involved in aid effort. It's pretty easy for a church to get around this. You have separate people who look after each. But people who have dedicated their lives to ministering spiritually should not be encumbered with the 'physical' needs of either the congregation or the population. Refer to Acts 6. I don't see that this constrains the church in any way, collectively. Collectively the church, or the people in the church can still minister to those with needs. Whoops, crossed posts. JO can correct me if I am wrong." I think the simple example that there were 7 men picked out by the Apostles to take care of the physical needs is example enough...Now we see some evidence that these 7 men were also "ministers" in the spiritual sense....Phillip/Ethiopian eunuch and Stephen's sermon before the unbelievers. So they were ministers...but they held a different office to the JESUS-SELECTED APOSTLES. I take that a different way, Sharon. We are all ministers in the spiritual sense. Some of us are committed full time to a 'spiritual ministry'. If you read my earlier posts I'm running with the idea that there is no difference between the apostles and today's ministry. Someone told me recently that they came to understand that the workers were no "better" than anyone else when they read about how the apostles so often failed.
|
|
|
Post by What Hat on Oct 22, 2009 21:58:34 GMT -5
I might agree with some of the rest of your post on this subject, but I don't think the above is true at all. I daresay a higher proportion of the friends have travelled abroad, to the Third World, Eastern Europe, Asia and the Arabian countries than any other sub-group of the population. At least around here. It seems every other day I'm talking to someone else about another trip taken overseas.
|
|