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Post by sharon on Oct 22, 2009 10:02:46 GMT -5
"And that is where the doctrinal issue gets clouded. The CHURCH has its written doctrine. You can accept it wholly or in part as an INDIVIDUAL, and continue to attend the church despite the difference. But if what is written as church doctrine does NOT line up with scripture then probably one is going to want to go elsewhere.
It sounds like you are saying that any church with a written doctrine is a false church, and will ultimately be stricken down by God. Therefore, it is the same as saying that ONLY churches with no written doctrine are the 'right way', and therefore we get back to the truth fellowship as being that 'right way' and all other churches (at least with a written doctrine) false and unacceptable by God, and back to why us exes are so frustrated with the truth fellowship and how they are exclusive even when some members say they aren't. They turn around and prove that what they say and what they actualy believe are not the same.... "
I have found that there are workers who's approach to the scriptures are far different then what I've come to know about a particular scripture....so in turn, I could easily say the worker so inclined to want to "push" his/her said interpretation onto someone who has different clear convictions on that are teaching "false" doctrine.....that happens often where there are strong-in-the-spirit friends...sometimes so much so, that eventually the friend is either shunned, corrected and/or asked to not say such, or to quit taking part at all or advised to exit the fellowship.
I'm wondering just where and when a strong differing between friend and worker or even worker and worker dictates the exiting of the one who is strongly convicted?
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Post by sharon on Oct 22, 2009 10:03:39 GMT -5
Workers ;D don't believe in having sex either.. Go figger... Ummmmm, I think some do secretly...evidence is pointing that way!
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Post by sharon on Oct 22, 2009 10:05:10 GMT -5
I know your roots... perhaps better than you do.... I had a great teacher. I have not seen one of your new hymn books... so not sure about the changes. Perhaps others could tell you about that. I just know the code words when I see them. There is a very strong "worker speak" found in some hymns....also I know of a xongwriter who has decided to turn songs loose for public hearing and I know that there has been some phrases that had to be rewritten so the general public would understand what the song was saying...that's a fact.
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Post by sharon on Oct 22, 2009 10:08:09 GMT -5
your... in that case means 2x2 membership.... beginings... sometimes I think you people have a chip on your shoulder. Anyway got to go to Bible Study... love to stay and chat but got to go. God Bless Don't Know Sam... you may be right. ;D I think Sam Jones was of a different cloth then most workers of his day....I gained this insight of him from those who knew him well. Plus poets and musicians both are generally of a different cloth even in everyday life....and when God speaks to them they see things so much more clearly and that enables them to put it into words and/or pictures and/or tunes.
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Post by sharon on Oct 22, 2009 10:11:03 GMT -5
Okay, okay, okay -- Bowing to popular demand, here is my statement of beliefs: 1. Knowledge of the world is derived by observation, experimentation, and rational analysis. 2. Humans are an integral part of nature, the result of unguided evolutionary change. 3. Ethical values are derived from human need and interest as tested by experience. 4. Life’s fulfillment emerges from individual participation in the service of humane ideals. 5. Humans are social by nature and find meaning in relationships. 6. Working to benefit society maximizes individual happiness. source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism_and_Its_AspirationsGene, it seems to me that these beliefs would not hurt anyone to know and understand. It benefits society individually and collectively! Thank you!
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Post by sharon on Oct 22, 2009 10:21:36 GMT -5
Well I have told this before... when Dad finally told me about WI ... I asked him why I had been taught that It started form Jesus... He was clearly embarresed... he did not want to say... all he could say was that he had been to several countries and had known about many churches (remember he was a Pow in a camp with ministers from practically all denominations) .. and the 2x2/truth was in his opinion the closest thing to being right. I had been taught all those years that it was the only thing that was right... so this was a very much change of tune. Consequently.. I can no longer trust man-made churches... I have long since stopped trying to find the perfect church... they are all wrong IMO. ... so now I fellowship with many churches... and I believe that Christians will be called out from those churches someday... to join and be a part of the Body of Christ.... which is the perfect church. In another thread we talked about Jesus being the way/Gate... someone compared Him as being like a turnstile.... I like that analogy... the way is so narrow that only one person can enter through it at a time... groups will not help you. I agree, Ithascome, that there is NOT one Christian religious denominations that IS totally right...all they do is serve as Moses' law did for the children of Israel...as a schoolmaster, to keep us aware of what is within the Bible and the fellowship of other so-minded Christians helps us to not forget or become lazy about working out our own salvation with fear and with trembling. I am firmly convicted that when Jesus returns and reigns as King of Kings and Lord of Lords during His millenial reign, there will be NO church denominations...NO Baptist, NO Methodists, No Catholics, No Presbyterians, No Lutherans, No truth's fellowship, No Pentecostl, No Seven Day Adventists, etc. NONE of them will be on the earth as such.....the people who are blessed to remain alive on the earth during that time will be worshipping Jesus and only Jesus and they WILL travel to Jerusalem every year for the Feasts of Tabernacles...the Bible declares it so....so in essence as God claimed there will be NO Canaanite...so we'll all be grafted, adopted into the Jewish nature....
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Post by sharon on Oct 22, 2009 10:30:42 GMT -5
I assume the 95 year old man was your Dad? Hmm. Therein must lie a tale. Your Dad probably believed that we are a group with no earthly founder. Cooney did. I beg to differ What. Cooney was preaching something that had no earthly founder, but I doubt he was referring to the group having no earthly founder. I believe he was preaching the simplicity that is in Christ. It seems to me that when the Living Witness Doctrine took firm hold on the beginning workers(about time John Long was excommunicated) that is when ALL of them started purporting that "this way" had come all the way from the shores of Galilee.....I think they found it to be what brought the converts thick and fast......and that should have been a "warning" to them and those they converted....something with that kind of initial success just usually is of mankind.....Jesus' 3 and half yrs. preaching, didn't net fast and furious converts.....fact is when He was taken before the Chief Priest the "crowd" that'd took Him into Jerusalem as "King" on the yearling ass was "Missing" and HIs Apostles were scattered....there wasn't many converts at all....Oh Jesus had quite a few "healings" etc., but His time on earth was often just "healing" and not preaching....the Bible says many disciples "left following Him"...... We should have understood with fast and furious convert gaining that something was of mankind, not God! And that holds to most every other denomination when you look at their beginnings. It is of man who seeks the "social" context of fellowship with other man.....God wants an individual relationship with each of us, not all of us collectively....that's the words of "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling...." it is an individual thing and IF no one ever had fellowship with another, but had an individual relationship with God INSPITE of NO fellowship, God would still call the person "His own." JMO
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Post by ithascome on Oct 22, 2009 10:45:53 GMT -5
So why not get started now? Most of the churches today do not follow many Jewish traditions.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 22, 2009 10:48:28 GMT -5
I assume the 95 year old man was your Dad? Hmm. Therein must lie a tale. Your Dad probably believed that we are a group with no earthly founder. Cooney did. I beg to differ What. Cooney was preaching something that had no earthly founder, but I doubt he was referring to the group having no earthly founder. I believe he was preaching the simplicity that is in Christ. That comment leads to some interesting conclusions. You and I don't see just our group as being uniquely in possession of "the simplicity that is in Christ", correct me if I am wrong. I suppose there is a difficulty with the "Jesus is our founder" claim. I do think the claim is valid, but since no other denomination is making that claim, it distinguishes us from the crowd of other denominations. That is certainly not my intention in making that claim. I think every denomination should say that Jesus is the founder of their church and disclaim the aura they place around the men who began their denomination. But as regards to Cooney, he did indicate that he and his band were proclaiming Christ as the founder of their faith, in contrast to other denominations, and he then named them. Sorry, but I don't have the quote to hand. I thought it was interesting how Scott Ross thought my excoriation of "written formal doctrine" was an attempt to make other churches look false. I was only criticizing one particular aspect of other churches. Recently I attended another church and found much to criticize. Some of it purely subjective, and some of it for sounder reasons. If I wrote out the criticisms, I'm sure the ex's would heap buckets of scorn on my head in no time flat. And yet I saw a lot of good qualities in that congregation too, a lot of which we could emulate in our fellowship to our betterment. I think we need to stop thinking that we as a group have all the right answers. As 'ithascome' has stated, every church is wrong. We're wrong too, in many respects. However, we don't need to give up on those things that we believe and that define us. Like no written doctrine, meeting in the home and a homeless ministry. These are all valid responses to the world around us and based in Scripture. But these responses don't make us right and everyone else wrong. I just thought I'd say this, because I will argue and defend some of these points, but ultimately coming up with the right answers on these questions is not what it's about as far as salvation is concerned. I think everyone would agree with that.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 22, 2009 10:50:00 GMT -5
Well I have told this before... when Dad finally told me about WI ... I asked him why I had been taught that It started form Jesus... He was clearly embarresed... he did not want to say... all he could say was that he had been to several countries and had known about many churches (remember he was a Pow in a camp with ministers from practically all denominations) .. and the 2x2/truth was in his opinion the closest thing to being right. I had been taught all those years that it was the only thing that was right... so this was a very much change of tune. Consequently.. I can no longer trust man-made churches... I have long since stopped trying to find the perfect church... they are all wrong IMO. ... so now I fellowship with many churches... and I believe that Christians will be called out from those churches someday... to join and be a part of the Body of Christ.... which is the perfect church. In another thread we talked about Jesus being the way/Gate... someone compared Him as being like a turnstile.... I like that analogy... the way is so narrow that only one person can enter through it at a time... groups will not help you. Bolded two statements I agree with, but that is just me. And as far as "closest thing" that assessment has subjective elements.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 22, 2009 10:52:50 GMT -5
Your comment shows your problem is that you "never really had a good understanding." ;D Someone might say that, and that's okay by me.
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Post by ithascome on Oct 22, 2009 11:22:14 GMT -5
Yep...the statement "2x2/truth is closest thing to being right" is an entirely subjective judgment because it can be informed solely by personal preferences - indeed, it is a statement of personal preference.
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Post by sharon on Oct 22, 2009 11:37:03 GMT -5
[quote author=what board=general thread=14691 post=303932 time=1256226508 That comment leads to some interesting conclusions. You and I don't see just our group as being uniquely in possession of "the simplicity that is in Christ", correct me if I am wrong. I suppose there is a difficulty with the "Jesus is our founder" claim. I do think the claim is valid, but since no other denomination is making that claim, it distinguishes us from the crowd of other denominations. That is certainly not my intention in making that claim. I think every denomination should say that Jesus is the founder of their church and disclaim the aura they place around the men who began their denomination.
But as regards to Cooney, he did indicate that he and his band were proclaiming Christ as the founder of their faith, in contrast to other denominations, and he then named them. Sorry, but I don't have the quote to hand.
Recently I attended another church and found much to criticize. Some of it purely subjective, and some of it for sounder reasons. If I wrote out the criticisms, I'm sure the ex's would heap buckets of scorn on my head in no time flat. And yet I saw a lot of good qualities in that congregation too, a lot of which we could emulate in our fellowship to our betterment. I think we need to stop thinking that we as a group have all the right answers. As 'ithascome' has stated, every church is wrong. We're wrong too, in many respects. However, we don't need to give up on those things that we believe and that define us. Like no written doctrine, meeting in the home and a homeless ministry. These are all valid responses to the world around us and based in Scripture. But these responses don't make us right and everyone else wrong. I just thought I'd say this, because I will argue and defend some of these points, but ultimately coming up with the right answers on these questions is not what it's about as far as salvation is concerned. I think everyone would agree with that. [/quote]
What, from personal experience I have found the amount of "wrong" found by me in another church's meetings is and was particularly "colored" by the indoctrination of the truth's fellowship that they were the only true way and all other churches are false.....when that mindset gets loosened up and I started looking at other church's meetings in regards to how it lines up with Jesus, then I had a total different perspective of it as well a totally different perspective about the truth's fellowship.
Jesus said we'd know them by their fruits! That said a lot of the truths about the truth's fellowship and what's been secreted away shows their fruits as well as anything. I'm not going to list the discrepancy because I think everyone of us need to discern according to Jesus and only Jesus!
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Post by sharon on Oct 22, 2009 11:39:15 GMT -5
So why not get started now? Most of the churches today do not follow many Jewish traditions. A former elder of the fellowship agreed with me that the "feasts" of the Jewish past has something to offer us. I also read an advertisement about a book for sale by the Christian Bookstore that tells how those Jewish feasts are teaching us about Jesus Christ.....something we can certainly consider. I'm wondering as well if the Jewish-Christian combo isn't best!
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Post by What Hat on Oct 22, 2009 12:21:48 GMT -5
Yep...the statement "2x2/truth is closest thing to being right" is an entirely subjective judgment because it can be informed solely by personal preferences - indeed, it is a statement of personal preference. The question of choice of denomination or fellowship almost comes down to that. Not quite though. What comes first is our relationship with Christ and through him with God. That might be just an infant seed. The choice of who we fellowship with is a secondary decision, and we do need to heed 1 John 4 on ensuring that we sense the presence of the Spirit. But beyond that .. I'd say that fellowship needs to be a positive experience in making that seed grow. Both in learning but also in exercising the Christ within. A criticism of our fellowship is that this process tends to be one dimensional ... going to meeting, convention, worker visits and so on. If that's what someone thinks it is, yeah, quit. Because what we believe needs to be lived out in our jobs, business, and things like community involvement as well. One of the things I don't like about some church fellowships is the one stop shopping approach. Socializing, education, charitable works, foreign aid, etc all go through the church. I'd prefer to have a church that focuses only on the purely spiritual aspect of my being, and then leave me to live the rest of my life as seems most appropriate. My involvement in community, business, charity, family life are up to me. That way, I think you engage in more common cause with the secular and non-Christian parts of society. As I say that I realize full well that many in our fellowship don't bother with any of that. Not always for bad reasons either. A person who runs a business 60-80 hours a week might well be making a significant contribution living out the Christ through his business endeavours, for example. (Incidentally, that's not really my approach, but I know some that do.) For someone else the approach might well be different. The church that I was raised in was totally at the other end of the scale. Their own schools, labour union, universities, foreign aid, and so on. I can't say objectively that is a worse way to do it. That approach also has its advantages.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 22, 2009 12:34:05 GMT -5
[quote author=what board=general thread=14691 post=303932 time=1256226508 That comment leads to some interesting conclusions. You and I don't see just our group as being uniquely in possession of "the simplicity that is in Christ", correct me if I am wrong. I suppose there is a difficulty with the "Jesus is our founder" claim. I do think the claim is valid, but since no other denomination is making that claim, it distinguishes us from the crowd of other denominations. That is certainly not my intention in making that claim. I think every denomination should say that Jesus is the founder of their church and disclaim the aura they place around the men who began their denomination. But as regards to Cooney, he did indicate that he and his band were proclaiming Christ as the founder of their faith, in contrast to other denominations, and he then named them. Sorry, but I don't have the quote to hand. Recently I attended another church and found much to criticize. Some of it purely subjective, and some of it for sounder reasons. If I wrote out the criticisms, I'm sure the ex's would heap buckets of scorn on my head in no time flat. And yet I saw a lot of good qualities in that congregation too, a lot of which we could emulate in our fellowship to our betterment. I think we need to stop thinking that we as a group have all the right answers. As 'ithascome' has stated, every church is wrong. We're wrong too, in many respects. However, we don't need to give up on those things that we believe and that define us. Like no written doctrine, meeting in the home and a homeless ministry. These are all valid responses to the world around us and based in Scripture. But these responses don't make us right and everyone else wrong. I just thought I'd say this, because I will argue and defend some of these points, but ultimately coming up with the right answers on these questions is not what it's about as far as salvation is concerned. I think everyone would agree with that. What, from personal experience I have found the amount of "wrong" found by me in another church's meetings is and was particularly "colored" by the indoctrination of the truth's fellowship that they were the only true way and all other churches are false.....when that mindset gets loosened up and I started looking at other church's meetings in regards to how it lines up with Jesus, then I had a total different perspective of it as well a totally different perspective about the truth's fellowship. Jesus said we'd know them by their fruits! That said a lot of the truths about the truth's fellowship and what's been secreted away shows their fruits as well as anything. I'm not going to list the discrepancy because I think everyone of us need to discern according to Jesus and only Jesus![/quote] True. But I think if you recognize that "comfort factor" weighing into your thinking then that is okay. For example, I could never speak in tongues. I do not disparage those that do. I don't know if you were going this way, Sharon, but I don't think that a person can really make an "objective" assessment of a congregation or denomination against true Biblical doctrine. This is my objection to groups like apologetics and the anti-cult movement. They think they've got it all figured out and then are going to tell everyone which denomination is right and which is wrong. Actually, the disclosure of information I am fine with. But it's misleading to make doctrine-centric judgements. The only way to make judgements is to meet the people, worship with them, see them in action. Walk with them for a while and see if the shoe fits. That's all part of testing the spirits to see if they are of God. That was the expedition my wife and I went on 30 years ago. The guiding of the Spirit is so personal, unfathomable, mysterious, unexplainable, contradictory, irrational and sometimes tortuous. We should never, ever say someone has "lost out". Here is a thought experiment. What if a person's mind and spirit are totally messed up but that person does love God, or even just feels a duty to serve God. What and where will God lead that person to teach their heart? We don't know. Not one bit.
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 22, 2009 12:51:02 GMT -5
One of the things I don't like about some church fellowships is the one stop shopping approach. Socializing, education, charitable works, foreign aid, etc all go through the church. I'd prefer to have a church that focuses only on the purely spiritual aspect of my being, and then leave me to live the rest of my life as seems most appropriate. My involvement in community, business, charity, family life are up to me.And if there is a church like that which someone like to join, how do they go about finding it? Why... Just search on the internet of course!!! You can find their website which will tell you the focus of their church, and how they believe in charitable works should be done. Of course that church would have to HAVE a website now wouldn't they? ;D On the serious side of that issue, I imagine that what you are saying about the 'one stop shopping approach' is probably true. I am glad it isn't like that in the church I go to. Yeah, we do charitable works, foreign aid and such through the church funding such activities. But individual charitable works are also in abundance also. I don't know much about how other churches do such things. I'd prefer to have a church that focuses only on the purely spiritual aspect of my beingInteresting. That isn't the way I read the bible. I read of charitable works being done by the church. I also read of things which I do not look on as being so much of a spiritual aspect also. When we read about the good Samaritan and how he helped his fellow man (neighbor) I see that as how we are to act in the world. I do not see this as a spiritual action (although it may stem from a spiritual feeling) I guess that is just me though. In my mind, those people out there who come across as being the most 'churchy' are those who do the least to help out their neighbors. They are more focused on their church issues than they are on Christian issues (which for me have less to do with the church they attend than being a member of the Church-body of Christ) Scott
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Post by What Hat on Oct 22, 2009 12:56:20 GMT -5
One of the things I don't like about some church fellowships is the one stop shopping approach. Socializing, education, charitable works, foreign aid, etc all go through the church. I'd prefer to have a church that focuses only on the purely spiritual aspect of my being, and then leave me to live the rest of my life as seems most appropriate. My involvement in community, business, charity, family life are up to me.And if there is a church like that which someone like to join, how do they go about finding it? Why... Just search on the internet of course!!! You can find their website which will tell you the focus of their church, and how they believe in charitable works should be done. Of course that church would have to HAVE a website now wouldn't they? ;D On the serious side of that issue, I imagine that what you are saying about the 'one stop shopping approach' is probably true. I am glad it isn't like that in the church I go to. Yeah, we do charitable works, foreign aid and such through the church funding such activities. But individual charitable works are also in abundance also. I don't know much about how other churches do such things. I'd prefer to have a church that focuses only on the purely spiritual aspect of my beingInteresting. That isn't the way I read the bible. I read of charitable works being done by the church. I also read of things which I do not look on as being so much of a spiritual aspect also. When we read about the good Samaritan and how he helped his fellow man (neighbor) I see that as how we are to act in the world. I do not see this as a spiritual action (although it may stem from a spiritual feeling) I guess that is just me though. In my mind, those people out there who come across as being the most 'churchy' are those who do the least to help out their neighbors. They are more focused on their church issues than they are on Christian issues (which for me have less to do with the church they attend than being a member of the Church-body of Christ) Scott You missed my point, I think. I would rather do that kind of thing through secular agencies (World Vision, Red Cross, Cancer Society) and through volunteering than under the auspices of my church. That's all. I'm quite familiar with all the verses from Jesus saying that when we feed the hungry, we feed Him, to the Good Samaritan, to the dangers of paying only lip service to our brother when he has a tangible need.
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Post by sharon on Oct 22, 2009 13:09:58 GMT -5
"True. But I think if you recognize that "comfort factor" weighing into your thinking then that is okay. For example, I could never speak in tongues. I do not disparage those that do.
I don't know if you were going this way, Sharon, but I don't think that a person can really make an "objective" assessment of a congregation or denomination against true Biblical doctrine. This is my objection to groups like apologetics and the anti-cult movement. They think they've got it all figured out and then are going to tell everyone which denomination is right and which is wrong. Actually, the disclosure of information I am fine with. But it's misleading to make doctrine-centric judgements. The only way to make judgements is to meet the people, worship with them, see them in action. Walk with them for a while and see if the shoe fits. That's all part of testing the spirits to see if they are of God. That was the expedition my wife and I went on 30 years ago. The guiding of the Spirit is so personal, unfathomable, mysterious, unexplainable, contradictory, irrational and sometimes tortuous. We should never, ever say someone has "lost out". Here is a thought experiment. What if a person's mind and spirit are totally messed up but that person does love God, or even just feels a duty to serve God. What and where will God lead that person to teach their heart? We don't know. Not one bit."
Well, I guess I'm one of those when one says I'm doing it wrong I'm going to farther in the opposite direction to prove I AM doing it right...BUT IF it is proven to me that I've been wrong, then it's easy for me to let it go and procede onto what I've found to be right but by NO particular man's ideas.
I have felt very compromised for sometime spiritually so for safety's sake I am very concerntrated on Jesus and ONLY Jesus....and I've proven that that's the way to go...thus I'm beginning to wonder about ANY sect of religion being anything close to right....there wasn't any that Jesus supported is there? He went out among all peoples, He was afraid of fellowship with the Jew's normal enemies nor enemies of God' law either......so it seems to me IF we following Jesus we will NOT find ourselves supporting ANY sect or denomination of religion in particular....for they ALL have men's commandments made doctrine!
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 22, 2009 13:10:18 GMT -5
The only way to make judgements is to meet the people, worship with them, see them in action. Walk with them for a while and see if the shoe fits. Yep I agree. Of course using that reasoning, the truth fellowship shoe didn't fit for all of us exes..... That's all part of testing the spirits to see if they are of God. That was the expedition my wife and I went on 30 years ago. Following that thought, there is of course those in the 'ex' category that are going to say "yep, tested those spirits and they weren't of God so I got the heck out while the getting was good"... The guiding of the Spirit is so personal, unfathomable, mysterious, unexplainable, contradictory, irrational and sometimes tortuous. We should never, ever say someone has "lost out". I'm with you 100% on that. It is VERY personal, and it will never make a bunch of identical Christians who believe, look and act exactly the same. Also, as individuals we should never grab the binoculars and try to peer around the log in our eye to focus on the little specks of sawdust in another's eye. (doesn't mean we don't, just that we shouldn't.....) Here is a thought experiment. What if a person's mind and spirit are totally messed up but that person does love God, or even just feels a duty to serve God. What and where will God lead that person to teach their heart? We don't know. Not one bit.Another thought experiment for those who think that works and conformity to outward looks will get you to heaven..... Are you doomed if you are a female quadriplegic with a bald head? Can't do any 'works' and you'll never put your hair in a bun 'cause ya don't have any..... BUT WAIT you may say, of course there are exceptions to the rules we made up. OK.... Just show me in the bible where it speaks of exceptions and how they are applied and just how they are to be applied and I'll agree with you.... On the other hand..... I personally believe that our works (which we are physically and mentally able to do) will reflect Christ within us and also that any physical and mental limitations have nothing to do with our salvation. (otherwise I might have some issues with that mental aspect....) Our works will reflect the Christ within, and will be in harmony with our gifts that we each have to carry out the Lord's work through us. Scott
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Post by Scott Ross on Oct 22, 2009 13:22:04 GMT -5
You missed my point, I think. I would rather do that kind of thing through secular agencies (World Vision, Red Cross, Cancer Society) and through volunteering than under the auspices of my church. That's all. OK. I can understand that. I personally like it through the church myself, as we get regular updates on specific needs for those that are needing help, whether in our church or not. Likewise for our local church body, these are NOT needs that are 'within' our church necessarily but rather needs that the church members let us know about. I'm quite familiar with all the verses from Jesus saying that when we feed the hungry, we feed Him, to the Good Samaritan, to the dangers of paying only lip service to our brother when he has a tangible need.I know you are.... And..... I am fine with the way you feel about charitable works. Are you fine with how my church goes about helping others? Also, just curious how you feel about how many churches as part of their outreach programs go to other countries and set up orphanages, schools medical clinics and churches to not only carry out the Great Commission, but in so doing find ways to enrich and better the lives of those they reach out to. Scott
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Post by ithascome on Oct 22, 2009 13:52:26 GMT -5
Yep.... I think so... worth looking into.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 22, 2009 13:54:09 GMT -5
"True. But I think if you recognize that "comfort factor" weighing into your thinking then that is okay. For example, I could never speak in tongues. I do not disparage those that do. I don't know if you were going this way, Sharon, but I don't think that a person can really make an "objective" assessment of a congregation or denomination against true Biblical doctrine. This is my objection to groups like apologetics and the anti-cult movement. They think they've got it all figured out and then are going to tell everyone which denomination is right and which is wrong. Actually, the disclosure of information I am fine with. But it's misleading to make doctrine-centric judgements. The only way to make judgements is to meet the people, worship with them, see them in action. Walk with them for a while and see if the shoe fits. That's all part of testing the spirits to see if they are of God. That was the expedition my wife and I went on 30 years ago. The guiding of the Spirit is so personal, unfathomable, mysterious, unexplainable, contradictory, irrational and sometimes tortuous. We should never, ever say someone has "lost out". Here is a thought experiment. What if a person's mind and spirit are totally messed up but that person does love God, or even just feels a duty to serve God. What and where will God lead that person to teach their heart? We don't know. Not one bit." Well, I guess I'm one of those when one says I'm doing it wrong I'm going to farther in the opposite direction to prove I AM doing it right...BUT IF it is proven to me that I've been wrong, then it's easy for me to let it go and procede onto what I've found to be right but by NO particular man's ideas. I have felt very compromised for sometime spiritually so for safety's sake I am very concerntrated on Jesus and ONLY Jesus....and I've proven that that's the way to go...thus I'm beginning to wonder about ANY sect of religion being anything close to right....there wasn't any that Jesus supported is there? He went out among all peoples, He was afraid of fellowship with the Jew's normal enemies nor enemies of God' law either......so it seems to me IF we following Jesus we will NOT find ourselves supporting ANY sect or denomination of religion in particular....for they ALL have men's commandments made doctrine! I think what you're saying is correct as far as doctrine is concerned, but we also need to live in active relation to a fellow community of believers. With our denominational system that usually almost means having to pick one, not only to attend with, but to toil and bear the cross along with.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 22, 2009 14:02:59 GMT -5
You missed my point, I think. I would rather do that kind of thing through secular agencies (World Vision, Red Cross, Cancer Society) and through volunteering than under the auspices of my church. That's all. OK. I can understand that. I personally like it through the church myself, as we get regular updates on specific needs for those that are needing help, whether in out church or not. Likewise for our local church body, these are NOT needs that are 'within' our church necessarily but rather needs that the church members let us know about. I'm quite familiar with all the verses from Jesus saying that when we feed the hungry, we feed Him, to the Good Samaritan, to the dangers of paying only lip service to our brother when he has a tangible need.I know you are.... And..... I am fine with the way you feel about charitable works. Are you fine with how my church goes about helping others? Also, just curious how you feel about how many churches as part of their outreach programs go to other countries and set up orphanages, schools medical clinics and churches to not only carry out the Great Commission, but in so doing find ways to enrich and better the lives of those they reach out to. Scott Of course I'm fine with your church and its approach. I don't want to discuss too much of the kinds of things we do. My wife is pretty active in many areas, but I have had my nose pretty close to the grindstone but feel I should be doing a lot more and am getting to the place in life where maybe I can. I really admire the Mennonites in our area who are very active in overseas relief. They aren't actually very large in number, but the Mennonite World Relief Committee has a huge impact overseas. I think there are more things that the friends could do, but I won't go into it. I feel I need to do a little more walking and not so much talking in this area myself.
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Post by JO on Oct 22, 2009 14:11:39 GMT -5
I beg to differ What. Cooney was preaching something that had no earthly founder, but I doubt he was referring to the group having no earthly founder. I believe he was preaching the simplicity that is in Christ. That comment leads to some interesting conclusions. You and I don't see just our group as being uniquely in possession of "the simplicity that is in Christ", correct me if I am wrong. I suppose there is a difficulty with the "Jesus is our founder" claim. I do think the claim is valid, but since no other denomination is making that claim, it distinguishes us from the crowd of other denominations. That is certainly not my intention in making that claim. I think every denomination should say that Jesus is the founder of their church and disclaim the aura they place around the men who began their denomination. But as regards to Cooney, he did indicate that he and his band were proclaiming Christ as the founder of their faith, in contrast to other denominations, and he then named them. Sorry, but I don't have the quote to hand. That's true, you and I don't see just our group as being uniquely in possession of "the simplicity that is in Christ". It's possessed by individuals - not groups. There is no such thing as a group ticket to heaven. Group membership neither qualifies nor disqualifies one - it's the Christ within, hearing the shepherd's voice and following him that is important. Cooney went along with the living witness doctrine for a time, but when William Irvine went off the rails and was moved aside in 1914 Cooney had a change of course. He rejected the LWD and encouraged his colleagues to get back to the childlike attitude they had in the beginning. He also disagreed with the growing level of organization - the convention system and dividing the world into fields with overseers deciding who was to preach where. Cooney did condemn other churches and ministers for a time, but I expect that was before 1914. I stand to be corrected if someone has further information.
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Post by JO on Oct 22, 2009 14:23:50 GMT -5
With regards to institutionalized good works, I wouldn't condemn groups who do it. In fact I applaud their efforts.
However there are good aid organizations out there already as What mentioned, and I feel its wrong to condemn groups like the F&W for not using the congregation's donations for aid projects. Somewhere I read about Jack Carroll encouraging the friends to give to the Red Cross.
The message of Jesus was to have a compassion within us that cannot help but reach out to those in need around us. The religious institutions didn't help the man robbed and beaten on the side of the road - it was an individual, a despised Samaritan at that, who did what needed to be done.
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Post by What Hat on Oct 22, 2009 14:31:52 GMT -5
With regards to institutionalized good works, I wouldn't condemn groups who do it. In fact I applaud their efforts. However there are good aid organizations out there already as What mentioned, and I feel its wrong to condemn groups like the F&W for not using the congregation's donations for aid projects. Somewhere I read about Jack Carroll encouraging the friends to give to the Red Cross. The message of Jesus was to have a compassion within us that cannot help but reach out to those in need around us. The religious institutions didn't help the man robbed and beaten on the side of the road - it was an individual, a despised Samaritan at that, who did what needed to be done. And on the doctrinal side, Acts 6 also indicates that the priority for workers and apostles should be telling the Gospel. However, our deaconship ( if you consider that Stephen at al are deacons ) could be better.
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Post by ithascome on Oct 22, 2009 14:43:50 GMT -5
Just wonder if you are saying because it was not the religious institutions that helped the robbed beaten man.. at that time.. that they should not do this ..it should be left up to individuals? Do you know why Jack encouraged this? It was because 5 workers were in POW camps at that time and the Red Cross was the only means to help them as the 2x2 were not organized enough to do it themselves. This is what my Dad wrote in his Diary.. Fri. Jan. 9/42 The Red Cross has set up a small kitchen and makes coffee for everyone in the morning, but one has to stand in line for an hour. Sat. Jan. 10/42 Everyone had to feed himself, as the Japs made no provision at all. The Red Cross tried to help those who had no food and no friends on the outside. Tues. Jan. 13/42 Willie has a job helping prepare food in the Red Cross kitchen for the children. I (my Dad) am to be called when my unit has another job, but also slated to be a cook's helper when the Red Cross sets up some field kitchens to feed everybody community style. Sat. Apr. 18/42A Red Cross nurse happened to come to visit us this morning, and upon seeing Leo sick, insisted on taking him to a hospital. Fri. July 3/42The Red Cross has had to give up feeding the folks in the concentration camp. Tues. June 8/43 I (my Dad) inquired at the Red Cross about sending a two word message to the States, but the cost was prohibitive for me - 17.60. I did not have enough to send it Sun. Nov. 5/44 There was one death in the hospital yesterday. We get vitamin pills once a day. I think they came in the Red Cross kits from the United States Tues. Nov. 28/44 Because our mail came, we think it possible that Red Cross Comfort Kits may come too. A kit is supposed to contain cheese, sugar, chocolate, powered milk, canned meat, ---- Oh me! Oh, my! We go into ecstasies of delight just at the thought of such things. Mon. Dec. 11/44 Excitement reigned in camp this a.m. A load of supplies came by rail. One lot was gifts from organizations in Manila to various denominations, both Catholic and Protestant, here in the camp. We being unorganized, got nothing! We saw sacks of rice, boxes, packages, beans, peanuts, candy, and what looked like a sack of sugar being carried past our cubicle. Can you imagine our feelings? Feb. 24, 1945We four are safe and well and in care of military and Red Cross. One thing for sure my Dad appreciated the Red Cross... and gave money to them when he was financially able.
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