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Post by sharon on Sept 25, 2009 12:48:41 GMT -5
"Adolescents and Generation MP3 John Gunn 2009
Dear Friends,
I feel the need to go to all the parents, and especially to those of you who have adolescent children, to express a thing that for a long time has worried me. We love you and we love your children and we only want the best for them, that is, in spiritual things.
We live in a world full of dangers and I am sure that all of you are more than aware of this, and more so when you have children of such a vulnerable age. We want to be like the parents of Moses, and to weave an ark well, so that amidst the rushes nothing can enter that could destroy the child.
There are two things that are so common now among the young people, the computer and the MP3, iPod or consoles, and while they can be used for good, so easily they become a trap, of which, sometimes we only realize their effect after the damage is done.
I must confess that it hurt me to my soul, to know through three different people, that as often among men as among women, during the annual conventions there were young people (of Spain), listening to music with their MP3 even between the meetings ........ and among the women, they were listening to jokes with a similar apparatus the night before the meetings. I believe that we are all conscious that the conventions places, in spite of being common homes during the year, in the time of the annual conventions become a holy place and their purpose is to be a place where we separate ourselves completely from the world, (away from our own homes and their worries), to dedicate ourselves to God and His Kingdom, during these four days. How can it be that we bring to the annual conventions such worldly things as musical equipment? And besides, how can we desire to give ear to music, that is not sacred, in a sacred place? Even in the world, one would not do such a thing in a church. I ask you as parents, to be careful that in the future these apparatuses do not come to the convention place.
Besides this, the MP3 now is cause for concern among those of the world, since it serves to isolate the young people from real life. They live in their own world, a world of the fantasy of music that, of course, does not do anything to help them have an appetite for the true things of God. Sometimes it is good to ask ourselves, Is the music that I listen to compatible with the faith that I express? Concerning the dangers of the MP3, it would be good to read the article ‘Generation MP3', a way of isolation. If anyone would like to read it, I can send them a copy.
We have felt sad sometimes when being in certain homes, (and that for some time) that we sometimes hardly have a visit with the young people, because they arrive late to the table, (they come from the computer) and before even finishing eating, they return to the computer again. We have found it to be true in most cases, that it is not to do homework or something of value, but to play games or to watch movies off the Internet. Television has served to destroy family bonds in the homes of the world, but it seems to me that the computer, without adequate control of the parents, is doing exactly the same thing among us today.
Imagine the following for a moment. You hire a private teacher for your children…. who comes to your home to teach them. After the first day of probably 4 hours of class…. you ask your child… What have you learned today? And he responds, “I learned to handle a pistol, to kill more than 100 people with an automatic, listened to dirty jokes and I saw a movie of married people fighting.” What would you soon do with that teacher? I believe that you would not let him take one single step into your home …. Isn’t that right? But this is what we do when we leave the children with violent games on the computer (surely, they are not compatible with the teachings of Christ), and we calmly let them continue using them. I believe that you understand me very well. I worry for the future of all those young people, and I know that what feeds them now, is going to bear fruit in the future, for good or for evil.
Please excuse me if in any way I am entering territory that is yours, in speaking of these subjects, but I do it, not with the spirit to criticize anybody, but I do it rather because of a healthy concern for our young people and for their future.
A copy of this letter is going to all the parents who have children through the age of adolescence, and those who are becoming parents, and also a copy to the elder of each Church. I know that your concerns are our concerns, and we hope that with the guidance of God and the will to work together for the good of all, we will take this to a good end.
Your brother, John"
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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 25, 2009 12:53:40 GMT -5
Well meaning perhaps, but a bunch of crap nonetheless.
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Post by sharon on Sept 25, 2009 12:56:20 GMT -5
Well meaning perhaps, but a bunch of crap nonetheless. One response.... "He was careful to leave out the fact that almost all the workers now have lap-top computers, and most of the friends have TV's tucked away in the closet. This is the culture we live in, and every culture down through the ages have had their things that God has had to help them with. Once again I can see the long arm of authority reaching out over the flock. And once again is the children's faith so weak that they must be isolated from everything? I'll tell you for a fact, this man needs to go and attend a few classes in any level of school, and get his eyes opened to what goes on there. I think if he did, he would have more respect for the young people in that environment. What's wrong with the parents setting guidelines for the use of the computer or even the TV.? They are virtually trying to take us out of the 21st century, and re-locate us back in the 30's..." |
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Post by sharon on Sept 25, 2009 13:02:32 GMT -5
Well meaning perhaps, but a bunch of crap nonetheless. Another response to JG's sermon on paper. "I read those notes and ****** commented I wish I had this guy's email address. I told her he probably doesn't own a computer maybe a pocket mail at best. She said the "long arm of the Law reaching out all the way from Spain." I am sure these notes are plastered all over the internet by now. This guy is the overseer of Spain and doesn't have a clue. She wanted his email address to tell him before he gets all over the friends and their kids why doesn't he start with the workers and their computers. The last special meetings when we had workers they spent 10 minutes or so visiting and then headed for their bed rooms where they could get on the computer. Several complained to me about us not having a wireless connection. Overseer logs on to watch the news and others I have known can watch football and basketball games and who knows what else. What is the difference between watching things on the computer and watching them on TV??? One older brother spoke at one special meeting that he was online chatting with some gal from Russia. WHAT??? As you mentioned 90% or more of the friends have TV's tucked away somewhere out of sight of the workers and friends and others have switches on their computers that allow them TV access. All this fellowship produces is hypocrisy forcing folks to hide things like this. They have to be one thing in front of the workers and friends and another way when they are with others. Sad way to live if you ask me. As you mentioned these old farts need to get into the 21st century and wake up and smell the coffee. Preaching about TVS and the such doesn't feed people or give them life. I better stop for now becasue my radiator is heating up again!!." |
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Post by ScholarGal on Sept 25, 2009 13:29:29 GMT -5
Dear John,
I appreciate your concern for children, but I think you are mistaken to characterize computers and MP3 players as evil devices.
Perhaps you could borrow my MP3 player for a week?
It's got Google Maps, so you would have less trouble finding your destinations for bible studies and lunches with interested strangers. The music files contain a collection of a cappella hymns recorded by a quartet of women with incredible voices. It's got three versions of the Bible (ESV, KJV, and NIV) with complete text search and some references. (I'm trying to figure out how to add a searchable database of Hymns Old & New, but I've run into a technical snag.) This little electronic device also works as a pedometer, helping me count steps so I can eat in proper moderation without worrying about the sin of gluttony. While exercising, I listen to foreign language lessons or energetic music.
On top of all those "worker-friendly" features, I also use the MP3 player to watch university lectures on a technical subject I'm currently studying. When I do homework problems, I use the calculator feature on my MP3 player.
The MP3 player can also check my email, but I prefer to do that on a laptop computer. I also have a second MP3 player that stores my entire address book and makes phone calls. The second MP3 player contains an FM radio, so I can catch up on national and world news from NPR and the BBC.
An MP3 player is not a spiritual trap. Rather than characterizing it as an evil device, you should promote some of the positive things it can do. Encourage youngsters to learn another language, listen to Bible lectures, or use the MP3 player to search out passages and subjects in various Bible versions. Humans have a tendency to be attracted to forbidden fruit. If you speak against the MP3 players, youngsters will simply hide them from you. Openness about their dangers and benefits will encourage responsible use of the MP3 player as both entertainment and useful tool.
Your sister in Christ,
ScholarGal
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2009 13:33:06 GMT -5
Does anyone know who this letter was sent to ? I mean, was it to only those professing people in Spain, which would only fill a handful of meetings at most? Or did it have a wider circulation ?
Such a letter would have little effect on a wider audience, but it could dominate or control a small number of people in an easily controlled field such as Spain where numbers are minimal.
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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 25, 2009 14:06:55 GMT -5
Such a letter would have little effect on a wider audience, but it could dominate or control a small number of people in an easily controlled field such as Spain where numbers are minimal.I think that such a letter would actually have a profound affect on many...young people who will go HUH? If anything this is the type of actions by a worker in power that will simply alienate those youth who are the future of the church, plus alienate many parents who don't like workers telling them how to raise their kids. Let's get real here. For many kids convention and special meetings are the only time they get to meet and get to know other kids their age that are in professing homes. FINALLY... other weird kids just like yourself you can hang out with that understand what it's like to be in a professing family! It is a time to find a girlfriend/boyfriend/make new friends and look to the future. Yeah..... In between meetings kids are expected to sit around and think of angels floating around and playing hymsontheirharps.... Get real!!!! It's enough that the kids might pick up on something good during meeting. My advice (like anyone really wants it...) is to preach a message of hope to those kids. Preach about the freedom one has in Christ, and the true joy that comes from placing all your trust and cares in His hands. If you are going to simply go around and tell others how to run their lives, pretty soon you will be preaching to a stump. (is that where the stump theory may have come from???) Scott 
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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 25, 2009 14:07:37 GMT -5
That was a great response Scholargal!!  |
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Post by GodIsLove on Sept 25, 2009 16:55:34 GMT -5
Scott said:
FINALLY... other weird kids just like yourself you can hang out with that understand what it's like to be in a professing family!
It is a time to find a girlfriend/boyfriend/make new friends and look to the future.
This absolutely cracks me up, because it's SO TRUE!! I grew up being in a very secluded area- professing-wise that is.  And I always was eager for convention so maybe I could meet a guy.. make friends.. There were no young kids very close in our area and when I did try to reach out to some, I found they were weird enough to contradict my weirdness. LOL. Regarding the original post, I got this e-mail a while back from a 'friend' in California. I thought it was absolutely ridiculous. Let's get our youth to be even more weird and to keep away from these evil sinful devices. :-P What's interesting is especially the part about the convention grounds being holy only during convention. I don't get that one?! I thought our body was supposed to be His temple and not a physical place. It's also funny that four days out of the year are the only time we would separate ourselves and dedicate ourselves to God. We should be doing this every minute of every day and be praising God alone and letting Him direct our lives instead of a mere human. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2009 17:12:33 GMT -5
Convention is part of the system. The system is worshipped. It receives more preaching about it, directly and indirectly, wittingly and unwittingly, than anything else. It is the only clear doctrine that they have. This helps explain why convention grounds are "Holy" for four days out of the year.
Actually, I don't entirely disagree with the statement, because just as names identify us, places can have a special identity and meaning for us. Sometimes these places can remind us of God and what he has done for us.
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lizzy
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Post by lizzy on Sept 25, 2009 18:14:44 GMT -5
You will notice that it is the misuse or over use of the computer or MP3's that John is referring too. Wouldn't you as parents want to see a balance? Wouldn't you people on this board want your children to know how to show respect when there is a houseguest in your home?
It has always been that convention is a time to be separate and really get in tune with the Spirit. Wouldn't distractions hinder that? Of course there are many things we can be distracted by in life. There are many fine people who desire to live in moderation, regardless of where they worship. I am sorry to see some of you become so incensed over this man's observation.
Remember this writer said "that while they can be used for good, these things can become a trap. "
Paul said that all is lawful but not all edifies. Please dear posters, don't come through so harshly. I don't think this was preaching against "worldly devices", but a genuine concern for their taking precedence in our lives.
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Post by sharon on Sept 25, 2009 19:53:54 GMT -5
Does anyone know who this letter was sent to ? I mean, was it to only those professing people in Spain, which would only fill a handful of meetings at most? Or did it have a wider circulation ? Such a letter would have little effect on a wider audience, but it could dominate or control a small number of people in an easily controlled field such as Spain where numbers are minimal. "A copy of this letter is going to all the parents who have children through the age of adolescence, and those who are becoming parents, and also a copy to the elder of each Church." Also it was sent through the internet and that means that it was passed on and on and on. I happen to think it was meant to do so. |
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Post by freespirit on Sept 25, 2009 20:34:34 GMT -5
Well, fortunately we can still have sex, smoke pot and drink beer between meetings.
fs
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Post by sharon on Sept 25, 2009 21:15:59 GMT -5
I must confess that it hurt me to my soul, to know through three different people, that as often among men as among women, during the annual conventions there were young people (of Spain), listening to music with their MP3 even between the meetings ........ and among the women, they were listening to jokes with a similar apparatus the night before the meetings. Well, fortunately we can still have sex, smoke pot and drink beer between meetings. fs Huhhh...that quote was of John's not mine! |
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Post by hope on Sept 25, 2009 22:56:09 GMT -5
Hmm interesting... I'm not professing, but am a Christian - and I have to say that while I don't agree with controlling religion (and often the workers try to control the youth I know) but my heart agrees with the core message this letter.. I wouldn't be surprised to hear any Christian leader speak this same message, and its stuff that I feel God has spoke in the own heart too.. This message is not a matter of control... this is a warning..
That said - Music is not evil, in fact music is wonderful and spiritual, I love all kinds of music, especially a wide variety of worship music... King David was a man after God's heart because of his desire to make musiHONKYTONK-HOEDOWN-WHOOPTYDOOo the Lord 24/7 and to worship... music is extremely powerful to feed the spirit but also transform the mind - beholding is becoming..
If we behold God and His word, words of worship we become more like Him, similarly if we fix our eyes and ears on the standards of immorality - many of the lyrics of secular music are really immoral and so spiritually damaging.. well.. beholding that.. its follows suite.. Ive seen it in my own life - I speak from experience. I now listen to mostly Christian music- not because someone told me because when I listen to some secular music "it takes me back" to before I knew the Lord and I do feel like it affects my thoughts, not only that if the lyrics are crude I can't enjoy it anymore.
Christian music nowadays allows kids to enjoy "secular style" music but godly and worshipful lyrics.. I think it would be great for the youth to be encouraged to listen to that.. rather than told to not listen to music at all..
I think the message that this worker was speaking is more to do with the time spent away on computers and disengaging from family and not making time for God.. and is summed in the verse that comes to mind
"little children keep ourselves from the things that would take God's place in your heart"
or another translation "little children keep yourselves from idols.."
This letter isn't just a message to the 2x2 or Christians as a whole.. its a message for a healthy family (period)- family bonds and the connection between family is a model of God's plan and His family in Heaven/earth.. Satan desires to dismantle family because of this, and because it often the strongest model of love that we have - a reflection/shadow of the Father's love... a lot of the disintergration of society as a whole comes from the fact that we do not live by the truth (God tells the truth and Satan is a liar -its that simple)
God tells us to forgive - that it will set us free
God tells us to love - to be like Him
God tells us to put our eyes on Him - because He lovingly cares for us and wants to guide us - knows where we are going...
God tells us to listen to His spirit... because He wants to speak words of love and comfort in a world of darkness
Satan tells us they (whoever) don't deserve forgiveness (and so we hurt ourselves carrying a burden of bitterness)
Satan tells us that we need to love ourselves first and foremost - look out for number 1 (and so we become selfish which leads to discontent and unhappiness)
Satan tells us to look at the great people of this world - actors/musicians/*insert here whoever and to model ourselves on them
Satan tells us to not be bored but to fill up every second of everyday with work/movies/sports/etc - none of which are bad.. but what is this life really about if we don't have time to listen to the Spirit or to experience the wonderful love and presence of God- which takes time and quietness...
Sorry that these thoughts are a bit disjointed... its early morning here!
Peace~
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lizzy
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Post by lizzy on Sept 26, 2009 0:37:26 GMT -5
A very nice post, Hope.
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Post by emy on Sept 26, 2009 1:51:42 GMT -5
You will notice that it is the misuse or over use of the computer or MP3's that John is referring too. Wouldn't you as parents want to see a balance? Wouldn't you people on this board want your children to know how to show respect when there is a houseguest in your home? It has always been that convention is a time to be separate and really get in tune with the Spirit. Wouldn't distractions hinder that? Of course there are many things we can be distracted by in life. There are many fine people who desire to live in moderation, regardless of where they worship. I am sorry to see some of you become so incensed over this man's observation. Remember this writer said "that while they can be used for good, these things can become a trap. " Paul said that all is lawful but not all edifies. Please dear posters, don't come through so harshly. I don't think this was preaching against "worldly devices", but a genuine concern for their taking precedence in our lives. Thank you for speaking up, lizzy. I read this admonition earlier on an email group, and thought some of it was a little "stiff," but I do agree that use of such electronics should be limited by parents of underage children during convention - along with very close supervision at home. |
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Post by emy on Sept 26, 2009 1:54:12 GMT -5
Hmm interesting... I'm not professing, but am a Christian - and I have to say that while I don't agree with controlling religion (and often the workers try to control the youth I know) but my heart agrees with the core message this letter.. I wouldn't be surprised to hear any Christian leader speak this same message, and its stuff that I feel God has spoke in the own heart too.. This message is not a matter of control... this is a warning.. That said - Music is not evil, in fact music is wonderful and spiritual, I love all kinds of music, especially a wide variety of worship music... King David was a man after God's heart because of his desire to make musiHONKYTONK-HOEDOWN-WHOOPTYDOOo the Lord 24/7 and to worship... music is extremely powerful to feed the spirit but also transform the mind - beholding is becoming.. If we behold God and His word, words of worship we become more like Him, similarly if we fix our eyes and ears on the standards of immorality - many of the lyrics of secular music are really immoral and so spiritually damaging.. well.. beholding that.. its follows suite.. Ive seen it in my own life - I speak from experience. I now listen to mostly Christian music- not because someone told me because when I listen to some secular music "it takes me back" to before I knew the Lord and I do feel like it affects my thoughts, not only that if the lyrics are crude I can't enjoy it anymore. Christian music nowadays allows kids to enjoy "secular style" music but godly and worshipful lyrics.. I think it would be great for the youth to be encouraged to listen to that.. rather than told to not listen to music at all.. I think the message that this worker was speaking is more to do with the time spent away on computers and disengaging from family and not making time for God.. and is summed in the verse that comes to mind "little children keep ourselves from the things that would take God's place in your heart" or another translation "little children keep yourselves from idols.." This letter isn't just a message to the 2x2 or Christians as a whole.. its a message for a healthy family (period)- family bonds and the connection between family is a model of God's plan and His family in Heaven/earth.. Satan desires to dismantle family because of this, and because it often the strongest model of love that we have - a reflection/shadow of the Father's love... a lot of the disintergration of society as a whole comes from the fact that we do not live by the truth (God tells the truth and Satan is a liar -its that simple) God tells us to forgive - that it will set us free God tells us to love - to be like Him God tells us to put our eyes on Him - because He lovingly cares for us and wants to guide us - knows where we are going... God tells us to listen to His spirit... because He wants to speak words of love and comfort in a world of darkness Satan tells us they (whoever) don't deserve forgiveness (and so we hurt ourselves carrying a burden of bitterness) Satan tells us that we need to love ourselves first and foremost - look out for number 1 (and so we become selfish which leads to discontent and unhappiness) Satan tells us to look at the great people of this world - actors/musicians/*insert here whoever and to model ourselves on them Satan tells us to not be bored but to fill up every second of everyday with work/movies/sports/etc - none of which are bad.. but what is this life really about if we don't have time to listen to the Spirit or to experience the wonderful love and presence of God- which takes time and quietness... Sorry that these thoughts are a bit disjointed... its early morning here! Peace~ This was wonderful. Thank you! |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2009 3:13:00 GMT -5
I agree with the core of John's message. As far as I can see he isn't saying ban mp3s or computers, just that using them in between meetings at convention isn't a good idea.
I know John personally and have been to convention in Spain, it was a wonderful convention in a time when I desperately needed help. While I don't want to glorify workers, I believe John does really care, and Spain is quite a place these days with many listening and professing in gospel meetings, and young workers going out together rather than the usual older with a younger. From what I can see, it's definitely much closer to the way things should be than the average area I've been in. Just want to provide a bit of balance here- the posts vehemently attacking John are a bit much IMO.
Having said this, I've reservations about whether a letter is the best way to go about things, IMO praying that the Spirit would teach people would be better.
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Post by freespirit on Sept 26, 2009 5:26:23 GMT -5
Having said this, I've reservations about whether a letter is the best way to go about things, IMO praying that the Spirit would teach people would be better. My biggest issue with this letter isn't that he's dissing technology, but that the letter isn't spiritual bread. There is no vision for the people. No meat. Nothing "better" that he is giving them other than some airy-fairy vague muck about how the convention grounds are sacred. It's not the gospel. This isn't a letter one can read over and over again to inspire you to think deep thoughts or praise God. It's a list of "don'ts" instead of inspiration of things to do--of the many, many blessings that God loves to give to those who love and trust Him. Around here between meetings, workers go to special little worker tea-parties. How is that "better" than listening to an mp3? If he is worried about the young people: Why not organize the workers into taking the kids for walks between meetings? Why not organize a young people's question and answer session? Why not bring some interesting props and tell them bible stories? How about bringing some instruments and playing hymns between meetings? How about getting the kids to help with chores? How about better, more inspired and interesting teaching within the meetings (while you have the kid's attention) so that the time not in meeting takes care of itself? How about using technology to preach the gospel and spread the message of Christ rather than making it out to be the big-bad-boogie-man? How about saying "thank you for showing up" instead of beating people down for being imperfect?How about an open dialogue between the friends and workers where people actually feel comfortable talking about how to solve issues? Sometimes I feel like we're a religion of "donts" when the field is white and people are starved for meaning and love and healing and God has all of those things. So much to *do.* If the workers do not have time to do some of these things... he could find people who love to play and teach kids and give them that responsibility. People are willing to work, to help... but they have no authority or guidance to do so in our fellowship. And... suggestions--no matter how mild--certainly aren't welcomed or encouraged. Heck, you can get excommunicated for that.  Colossians 2
Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of the world, why, as though you still belong to it do you submit to its rules: "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.Our church needs vision and leadership... not a bunch more goofy rules. God is better than an iPod--show the people God and he won't have to worry about the mp3 players. fs |
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GoBlue
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Post by GoBlue on Sept 26, 2009 6:46:06 GMT -5
Having said this, I've reservations about whether a letter is the best way to go about things, IMO praying that the Spirit would teach people would be better. My biggest issue with this letter isn't that he's dissing technology, but that the letter isn't spiritual bread. There is no vision for the people. No meat. Nothing "better" that he is giving them other than some airy-fairy vague muck about how the convention grounds are sacred. It's not the gospel. This isn't a letter one can read over and over again to inspire you to think deep thoughts or praise God. It's a list of "don'ts" instead of inspiration of things to do--of the many, many blessings that God loves to give to those who love and trust Him. Around here between meetings, workers go to special little worker tea-parties. How is that "better" than listening to an mp3? If he is worried about the young people: Why not organize the workers into taking the kids for walks between meetings? Why not organize a young people's question and answer session? Why not bring some interesting props and tell them bible stories? How about bringing some instruments and playing hymns between meetings? How about getting the kids to help with chores? How about better, more inspired and interesting teaching within the meetings (while you have the kid's attention) so that the time not in meeting takes care of itself? How about using technology to preach the gospel and spread the message of Christ rather than making it out to be the big-bad-boogie-man? How about saying "thank you for showing up" instead of beating people down for being imperfect?How about an open dialogue between the friends and workers where people actually feel comfortable talking about how to solve issues? Sometimes I feel like we're a religion of "donts" when the field is white and people are starved for meaning and love and healing and God has all of those things. So much to *do.* If the workers do not have time to do some of these things... he could find people who love to play and teach kids and give them that responsibility. People are willing to work, to help... but they have no authority or guidance to do so in our fellowship. And... suggestions--no matter how mild--certainly aren't welcomed or encouraged. Heck, you can get excommunicated for that. Colossians 2
Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of the world, why, as though you still belong to it do you submit to its rules: "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.Our church needs vision and leadership... not a bunch more goofy rules. God is better than an iPod--show the people God and he won't have to worry about the mp3 players. fs Amen, Sista! Preach it! Amen!! |
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shiloh
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Post by shiloh on Sept 26, 2009 7:16:38 GMT -5
The John GUnn letter can be approached from several angles. On the one hand, concern for young people and an addiciton to technology. On the other hand, the overseer comes across a bit controlling . Maybe JG should organize more CONSTRUCTIVE activities for children between meetings. So many conventions are full of old fossils who don't connect with younger people. I feel sorry for adolescence who feel they HAVE to attend convention with their parents when their minds and hearts are elsewhere. Long hot meetings sitting in hard chairs etc..
Again, I probably agree with some of the stuff Gunn is trying to discuss. It is the STYLE of his E Mail that bothers me. And probably will offend more than it will help.
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Post by 1smallvoice on Sept 26, 2009 7:40:33 GMT -5
Amen freespirit
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Post by sharon on Sept 26, 2009 8:15:27 GMT -5
Hmm interesting... I'm not professing, but am a Christian - and I have to say that while I don't agree with controlling religion (and often the workers try to control the youth I know) but my heart agrees with the core message this letter.. I wouldn't be surprised to hear any Christian leader speak this same message, and its stuff that I feel God has spoke in the own heart too.. This message is not a matter of control... this is a warning.. That said - Music is not evil, in fact music is wonderful and spiritual, I love all kinds of music, especially a wide variety of worship music... King David was a man after God's heart because of his desire to make musiHONKYTONK-HOEDOWN-WHOOPTYDOOo the Lord 24/7 and to worship... music is extremely powerful to feed the spirit but also transform the mind - beholding is becoming.. If we behold God and His word, words of worship we become more like Him, similarly if we fix our eyes and ears on the standards of immorality - many of the lyrics of secular music are really immoral and so spiritually damaging.. well.. beholding that.. its follows suite.. Ive seen it in my own life - I speak from experience. I now listen to mostly Christian music- not because someone told me because when I listen to some secular music "it takes me back" to before I knew the Lord and I do feel like it affects my thoughts, not only that if the lyrics are crude I can't enjoy it anymore. Christian music nowadays allows kids to enjoy "secular style" music but godly and worshipful lyrics.. I think it would be great for the youth to be encouraged to listen to that.. rather than told to not listen to music at all.. I think the message that this worker was speaking is more to do with the time spent away on computers and disengaging from family and not making time for God.. and is summed in the verse that comes to mind "little children keep ourselves from the things that would take God's place in your heart" or another translation "little children keep yourselves from idols.." This letter isn't just a message to the 2x2 or Christians as a whole.. its a message for a healthy family (period)- family bonds and the connection between family is a model of God's plan and His family in Heaven/earth.. Satan desires to dismantle family because of this, and because it often the strongest model of love that we have - a reflection/shadow of the Father's love... a lot of the disintergration of society as a whole comes from the fact that we do not live by the truth (God tells the truth and Satan is a liar -its that simple) God tells us to forgive - that it will set us free God tells us to love - to be like Him God tells us to put our eyes on Him - because He lovingly cares for us and wants to guide us - knows where we are going... God tells us to listen to His spirit... because He wants to speak words of love and comfort in a world of darkness Satan tells us they (whoever) don't deserve forgiveness (and so we hurt ourselves carrying a burden of bitterness) Satan tells us that we need to love ourselves first and foremost - look out for number 1 (and so we become selfish which leads to discontent and unhappiness) Satan tells us to look at the great people of this world - actors/musicians/*insert here whoever and to model ourselves on them Satan tells us to not be bored but to fill up every second of everyday with work/movies/sports/etc - none of which are bad.. but what is this life really about if we don't have time to listen to the Spirit or to experience the wonderful love and presence of God- which takes time and quietness... Sorry that these thoughts are a bit disjointed... its early morning here! Peace~ Maybe so, the intentions of the worker might well be trying to be helpful... BUT number one he has NO idea what kind of music they were listening to....there's a chance that they were sharing some hymns that one or some of them have either learned to play on an instrument or it could have been a "group" sing where even workers were present. It was a judgmental call without full knowledge, that in itself is wrong. Number two, he set forth to tell the parents what and how to raise their children...that is offensive to MOST parents...even ones in the fellowship though a majority of them will keep their collective mouths shut. But some will harbor this in their heart as an offense and as offenses keep piling up because this worker has gotten by with this, there will be some people who exit the fellowship because of the offensiveness of this approach. In a class of poetry writing with a Harvard and Yale professors, it was stressed to us, when you see something to critique in the negative, "First be sure you know of what you speak, then offer a kind solution. NEVER, ever critique without offering a knowledgeable and kind solution. NEVER." Seems prudent in other things as well. First offensive thing this letter was sent out to ALL parents and I'm sure there were parents who probably had corrected or told their children this was a no-no on conv grounds....so it would make them feel unnessarily reproved! And other things as I've mentioned above. Even as strict as the workers were in my day, they made their advisements very private indeed. They either approached the guilty parties on the spot if they thought it very vital or they approached them/their parents in private. A very wise way. |
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Post by sharon on Sept 26, 2009 8:21:00 GMT -5
Having said this, I've reservations about whether a letter is the best way to go about things, IMO praying that the Spirit would teach people would be better. My biggest issue with this letter isn't that he's dissing technology, but that the letter isn't spiritual bread. There is no vision for the people. No meat. Nothing "better" that he is giving them other than some airy-fairy vague muck about how the convention grounds are sacred. It's not the gospel. This isn't a letter one can read over and over again to inspire you to think deep thoughts or praise God. It's a list of "don'ts" instead of inspiration of things to do--of the many, many blessings that God loves to give to those who love and trust Him. Around here between meetings, workers go to special little worker tea-parties. How is that "better" than listening to an mp3? If he is worried about the young people: Why not organize the workers into taking the kids for walks between meetings? Why not organize a young people's question and answer session? Why not bring some interesting props and tell them bible stories? How about bringing some instruments and playing hymns between meetings? How about getting the kids to help with chores? How about better, more inspired and interesting teaching within the meetings (while you have the kid's attention) so that the time not in meeting takes care of itself? How about using technology to preach the gospel and spread the message of Christ rather than making it out to be the big-bad-boogie-man? How about saying "thank you for showing up" instead of beating people down for being imperfect?How about an open dialogue between the friends and workers where people actually feel comfortable talking about how to solve issues? Sometimes I feel like we're a religion of "donts" when the field is white and people are starved for meaning and love and healing and God has all of those things. So much to *do.* If the workers do not have time to do some of these things... he could find people who love to play and teach kids and give them that responsibility. People are willing to work, to help... but they have no authority or guidance to do so in our fellowship. And... suggestions--no matter how mild--certainly aren't welcomed or encouraged. Heck, you can get excommunicated for that. Colossians 2
Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of the world, why, as though you still belong to it do you submit to its rules: "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.Our church needs vision and leadership... not a bunch more goofy rules. God is better than an iPod--show the people God and he won't have to worry about the mp3 players. fs AMEN! Freespirit. We can not help people by not offering solutions or at least suggestions for solution. It is a religion bound down with "commandments of men made doctrine." And I agree that it's not the only one. But I was reading again Paul's words about being bound down with the "taste not's, touch not's and want not's" and that's what is within the fellowship these days. Do people really think this was the impetus for the beginning workers? I don't think so, as it has been argued over and over, their purpose was to turn people to worshipping Christ in spirit and in truth. The first beginning of the mistakes was being so heavily against other christian denominations. That is the ball of was that has gathered more dirt and crap and men's commandments then any other thing the beginning workers tried to do. And that is sad very sad! |
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Post by peridot on Sept 26, 2009 9:25:08 GMT -5
John Gunn has addressed a concern all professing parents have to face when raising children. Sad when the outward conformity is forced on children so severely that the parents lose the hearts of their children in the process. A price too high! Not only do the parents lose, the children lose sight of God.
Thanks for your post freespirit.
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Post by sharon on Sept 26, 2009 9:54:27 GMT -5
John Gunn has addressed a concern all professing parents have to face when raising children. Sad when the outward conformity is forced on children so severely that the parents lose the hearts of their children in the process. A price too high! Not only do the parents lose, the children lose sight of God. Thanks for your post freespirit. Periodot you just said something that is akin to what I was thinking earlier....these workers are usually older men who have had NO experience raising families or children and often they are "johnny come lately" to a situation that most parents have realized when the children are extremely young. It's kind of like these workers have a foresight that is really a hindsight because those who they're speaking too have been there and done that long long time before! |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 26, 2009 10:50:52 GMT -5
This worker, like many others in their isolated world, do not understand that life is not about banning, disallowing, allowing etc. It's about managing appropriately. Workers cannot ban computers, TV, MP3's, Wii's, etc. and it does little good diss their use and run off. Freespirit is perfectly correct, teachers, leaders, elders, etc need to realize that kids need help in managing life, not issue near-mindless put downs. Some workers seem so disconnected from reality some time that I wonder how they manage their own lives.
Believe it or not, kids will become engaged in their faith if worked with properly. It won't happen though if they get criticized everytime they sit at a computer or have an earbud plugged in......that drives them away and disengages them.
I agree with the poster that Mr Gunn likely cares and is well intentioned here, but as the old saying goes, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions."
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And I always was eager for convention so maybe I could meet a guy.. make friends.. There were no young kids very close in our area and when I did try to reach out to some, I found they were weird enough to contradict my weirdness. LOL. 
