White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
|
Post by White Knight on Sept 30, 2008 21:40:21 GMT -5
The fact that keeps getting posted which was proven false in lie detector test and questioning, is that no, NO HAMMER was used. Could you imagine a judge not calling that a crime? That is a complete false allegation! A no contest plea was as stated, a call the attorney thought would be good to get the children home. And that was a call that would not have been used if the outcome would have been known. Everyone knows that an attorney gives advise, and the client thinks what they advise would be wise, so why is everyone trying to make it out as if there were terrible things and a no plea would be saying that a person was guilty of a crime? That is implicating something not true. The case turned out completely different than was expected and it wasn't the big brutal story that everyone thought was going to be exciting, so try to make it something even though it was some things that needed to be corrected and the children came home and everyone tries to pick up the pieces and go on with their lives. The children were corrected like many are, with a belt, that the courts don't allow. Or put in a room like many many parents tell their children, go to your room. The same twins that lies about the sexual abuse and many other things, were the same twins that turned in the report about the family that had the children removed before anything was ever questioned or checked. The report was full of lies also. So, sorry it didn't make a big wild story and lets be thankful for it! Your right nor was there a whip. I think there was a partial deposition done on one of the twins? And that She claims she never seen a whip nor hammer? Not sure of all the details.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Sept 30, 2008 23:07:44 GMT -5
Am still wondering how Scott says he got the list of the 30 or so men first listed. That has not been posted. It is either the police or the workers. Just wonder which one?No, I don't think that list will ever be posted here. Just to clear the air a bit, all those names were not given to me be either the workers or police (I'm assuming you are referring to the state police here). There were several people who contacted me with information from Michigan. There was a lot of information passed my way. Not all of it was correct, and some mere speculation. Those 30 names are not all listed on WINGS. If you look at what we ask for on the WINGS site in regards to information, it asks for specifics about alleged CSA. Just the fact that we are given a name does not mean we are going to consider it to be the name of an abuser. Scott
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Sept 30, 2008 23:34:55 GMT -5
The case turned out completely different than was expected and it wasn't the big brutal story that everyone thought was going to be exciting, so try to make it something even though it was some things that needed to be corrected and the children came home and everyone tries to pick up the pieces and go on with their lives. The children were corrected like many are, with a belt, that the courts don't allow. Or put in a room like many many parents tell their children, go to your room.A lot of our parents would have been guilty of child abuse these days. My dad was pretty quick with the belt. It could be out of his belt loops and whistling toward my butt before I even had a chance to begin yelling in anticipation..... I was sent to my bedroom for a 'timeout'. I don't think being sent to their bedroom was the issue was it? BUT..... as with the belt issue, shutting the kids in a 'room' was addressed by the court and the parents have learned how to discipline the children when the need rises (in a manner acceptable by the court) Because I have been continuously bombarded here lately as to my original posts, the original posts keep coming up. As I have stated, I posted public information, and did not add much to it. I am sure that in hindsight there are some things I did incorrectly, but at no time did I post any names or try to harm the family in any way by how or what I posted. In fact..... I had certain posts removed by the administrator, or by PMs and emails to people who DID cross the line as to what should be posted here. I am sure all of those who were investigated and the family also, are glad that I did not post those things which I heard. The fact is, the younger children have all been reunited in the same household, and this has been done through the slow process of following the judicial system and what it expected of the parents for this to happen. It is my understanding that there is one more scheduled court hearing on this matter, and as long as everyone abides by the court decisions the family will be staying together. This is a good thing for the children (and the parents), and should bring back stability to all of their lives. I wish nothing but the best for all who have been involved in the whole issue, and that life can return to normal at some point. It is also my hope that at some point the whole extended family will be able to reconcile with each other in this matter. Scott
|
|
dchaplin
New Member
Innocent until proven guilty. Liberty and justice for all. Let forgiveness prevail!!!!
Posts: 34
|
Post by dchaplin on Oct 1, 2008 6:58:11 GMT -5
Quote:Scott said: A lot of our parents would have been guilty of child abuse these days. My dad was pretty quick with the belt. It could be out of his belt loops and whistling toward my butt before I even had a chance to begin yelling in anticipation.....
Dave says: Scott thanks for posting this. This has been my take from day 1. If the complete truth was known how many of us have been on the receiving end or would be guilty of the same! It was just a common form of discipline and only recently was outlawed. I don't remember getting a bulletin in the mail saying you can't use a belt for discipline. However it is the courts position, we are not to be ignorant of the law, which I accept and support.
Quote: Scott said: Because I have been continuously bombarded here lately as to my original posts, the original posts keep coming up. As I have stated, I posted public information, and did not add much to it. I am sure that in hindsight there are some things I did incorrectly, but at no time did I post any names or try to harm the family in any way by how or what I posted.
Dave says: Scott the reason you are being bombarded is because we want the truth to be posted. We have had our names slandered, our characters defamed and been shunned by our workers, exworkers and our brothers and sisters all because of false allegations based on rumors and gossip. People that are so intent on bringing others down, need to look at their own hearts and realize there sin is just as sinful in GODS eyes. None of us can stand with out the blood of Jesus. I have made some terrible mistakes in my life, if it was not for the mercy that God has shown me where would I be today? I know where I would be and that's the scary part. It is no different for anyone else from the head worker on down to the very least in the kingdom or anyone else for that matter who has their own belief on salvation. The very reason for the bombardment is that now is the time to set the records straight, there can be healing but those that have been falsely accused aren't just going to look the other way. This is far from over, those that have been involved in this need to make amends, not one apology has been forth coming except for yours, in acknowleding you have made mistakes in your postings. I respect you for saying this and this is a start. If those in authority over us think this is going to go away and everything is going to be o.k. then they are still way off in their thinking. There has been a huge amount of damage done here, we want them to acknowledge their wrong doing and apologize. It is a sad day when you don't feel you can trust them anymore. If they can't humble themselves to do this than they need to be removed and someone else needs to be placed in their place so we can have a fresh start, until that happens there won't be healing.
Sincerely, Dave.
|
|
|
Post by dgaab on Oct 1, 2008 8:07:11 GMT -5
Not trying to be argumentative, but I do not remember any names being posted on TMB! The Workers, yes; one or two 'initials' insinuations of one-or-two non-Workers. To the best of my recollection Scott posted much what was public info, and on many occasions, holding back any particulars that he was privy to (whether truthful or misleading as others)
The Workers dutifully reported whatever information, which now is ‘clearly-cut’ as erroneously provided and sadly hindsight is twenty-twenty, as required by Michigan’s laws. Some Workers apparently lost what they have committed their lives to and the faith’s ministerial fallout may not yet be totally evident. Sad to say.
Was anything disclosed from the Michigan conventions’ platform from any Workers, in an earnest attempt to soothe the heart-wrenching predicament?
All said-and-done, so to speak, it's most rewarding that the judicial system has cut the bonds of scurrilous allegation from those sinfully and wrongly accused. Unfortunately, the bare reality is that the penetrating wounds are inexorably deep and, for many, may never heal.
|
|
|
Post by freedonforever on Oct 1, 2008 11:02:23 GMT -5
How does one become privy to inside information? When information isn't made available to anyone except in the law enforcement staff and the people that turn in the information, no one else would have any information to give. And that information isn't made publiHONKYTONK-HOEDOWN-WHOOPTYDOOil all of the information has been checked and if necessary tried in court. So, does anyone except those people mention even know 30 names listed? I don't think so. The two that post on here constantly and were named in the false allegations, I doubt that they even know of 30 names that were turned in. So, to give out 30 names, you have to have privy information. It has to be either the people that gave the names to the law enforcement or the law enforcement, which is definitely against policy and no law enforcement officer would want that to be made known. It has been said the overseer has a list of the names, but then it would be known that any names turned in by the workers and girls were O.K.'d by the overseer. That would be a definite necessity by the overseer. Of course the overseer could pass that list to another overseer, but we are still down to the fact then that the list came from the workers.
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Oct 1, 2008 11:20:56 GMT -5
Above commits fallacy of "Too few alternatives"
|
|
|
Post by bandtroll on Oct 1, 2008 11:21:46 GMT -5
Sept 24, 2008, 6:49pm, bandtroll wrote: I'm trying to understand why the twins are in the hospital? "Why now?" Or have they been in the hospital ever since the investigator said 'no more'? When did they go into the hospital? Sorry but my data is correct, and my postings are correct, the problem we have, is some posts throughout these threads were deleted by others. So I will say it again. All through this mess, when the twins were to appear in court or when they were to be tested. One of the twins would always play the hospital card thing and book herself in. That’s not incompetent that’s playing the system. Sorry, confused again. Your earlier post stated they had gone into the hospital after their court dates. Your latest post says one of them has checked themselves in (more than once?) before the 'court order.' That is the reason for my questions, while it 'looks like' they may be 'playing incompetent,' the stress of a court date, ect could cause an episode, as could the stress of many other things.
|
|
|
Post by bandtroll on Oct 1, 2008 11:28:11 GMT -5
(But 'Rest of your life' is just a slight exaggeration, right?) IF you understand the law as I do you would know. These, things, stay with you/against you for the rest of your life. Is done by codes in an open file or hidden. Pending if one has been convicted or not. Plus the fact most people don't know about expunging or to get a criminal recorded check done from all levels. This can cost about or up to $140.00 this is including finger print and photo search. No I do not know the laws of MI, but 'life in prison' sounds a little strong for someone without a prior criminal record. Yes, I do know that these accusations will stay on peoples records AND in peoples minds for longer than the accused will live. Did the investigators say what the charges might have been and what the sentence could be if found guilty? ====== EDITED TO ADD ======= Dave, Mod 3 edited out your list of accusations against you. ... The idea of life in prison based on what you were accused of is not out of question. Scott
|
|
|
Post by degem on Oct 1, 2008 11:40:24 GMT -5
I am confused as to whether the girls were/are classified as "mentally incompetent". What bandtroll said in his post, though, that what "looks like playing incompetent" can/is triggered by stress, especially when the stress is extremely high. Speaking from past personal experiences, I know this to be true.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Oct 1, 2008 13:07:23 GMT -5
I am confused as to whether the girls were/are classified as "mentally incompetent". What bandtroll said in his post, though, that what "looks like playing incompetent" can/is triggered by stress, especially when the stress is extremely high. Speaking from past personal experiences, I know this to be true. Let's see if I can confuse everyone a little bit more.... The girls have seen counselors in the past. And there has been instances of hospitalization for a few different reasons. They are now 'inpatients' at the forensic center. It was determined that they were not competent to stand trial AT THIS TIME. It is believed that they WILL be able to stand trial later after their hospital stay, but of course that will be determined by the staff at the forensic center. They each have new court dates scheduled. One is in December, and the other in January. Scott
|
|
|
Post by freedonforever on Oct 1, 2008 13:58:25 GMT -5
White Knight was referring to the fact that each time one of the twins was to have an exam or questioned or what the police or court wanted, she would some how end up in the hospital until everything was cancelled and then she would be in good enough shape to be released. So, when she was to appear this time in court, again she was in the hospital to be released the beginning of the week which through the court hearing off again. But, she was released and did appear and is now supposedly in the forensic hospital for treatment. The twins were ruled different in their incompetent condition so will wait and see how that works. One ex worker showed up with the last girl in court. The other is apparently having nerve problems. I would think so. But the one so involved in everything is still the thinking and talking person for the twins. That needs to stop for any type of treatment to be effective. The incompetent condition has been one that has progressed as the girls were with the workers. Anyone can vouch for that. I'm sure there are very good drs. at the hospital and they know all the ropes that are used and all the angles that are tried and all the excuses that can be thought up.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Oct 1, 2008 15:30:13 GMT -5
Dave, Mod 3 edited out your list of accusations against you. It was done so that the other mods would have a chance to discuss whether it should be allowed here. If it is determined that it is okay, they will either be replaced in your post, or you will be notified that you can repost them. You will get a PM which will explain this in a manner that you will make you understand why it isn't a good idea to have that info posted here. Nothing personal. In relation to what you had posted regarding: No I do not know the laws of MI, but 'life in prison' sounds a little strong for someone without a prior criminal record This is what Ruben Mata was charged and convicted of: RUBEN MATA – WORKER
Mata went on trial on November 20, 2006, in Santa Clara County, CA. He was charged with three counts, summarized here:
• a. Penal Code section 288(b)(1) Lewd or lascivious act on a child by force, violence, duress menace and fear.
• b. Penal Code section 269 Aggravated sexual assault of a child under 14 and 10 or more years younger than the defendant, by violation of penal code section 288a, Oral Copulation, by force, violence, duress, menace and fear.
• c. Penal Code section 269 Aggravated sexual assault of a child under 14 and 10 or more years younger than the defendant, by violation of penal code section 288a, Oral Copulation, by force, violence, duress, menace and fear.
He was found guilty of all three counts.
Mata received 6 years for the first count and 15 for the second and 15 for the third.
Sentencing took place January 24, 2007, at the San Jose Hall of Justice.
Mata was sentenced to 36 years to life. He was not eligible for parole.
Mata died in prison on October 2, 2007.The idea of life in prison based on what you were accused of is not out of question. Scott
|
|
dchaplin
New Member
Innocent until proven guilty. Liberty and justice for all. Let forgiveness prevail!!!!
Posts: 34
|
Post by dchaplin on Oct 1, 2008 16:22:30 GMT -5
Dave, Mod 3 edited out your list of accusations against you. It was done so that the other mods would have a chance to discuss whether it should be allowed here. If it is determined that it is okay, they will either be replaced in your post, or you will be notified that you can repost them. You will get a PM which will explain this in a manner that you will make you understand why it isn't a good idea to have that info posted here. Nothing personal. Dave wrote: Thats fine, I received the pm and it makes good sense to keep it off. I didn't realize the google aspect of it and mod 3 is correct, I don't want that to be all over the web. Dave.
|
|
|
Post by bandtroll on Oct 1, 2008 17:45:00 GMT -5
Did the investigators say what the charges might have been and what the sentence could be if found guilty? Sorry, didn't mean to start anything by asking questions. (It's good to see that the mod's are 'earning their pay' ) Here is a link to the MI Sentencing guidelines. People can do their own math.
|
|
|
Post by jhjmr on Oct 1, 2008 19:21:55 GMT -5
Dave, you will never be in prison. There is to much garbage against the girls to ever send anyone to prison. Everyone knows that you are innocent just by what has been told so far. The bad thing about all of this is the malice judgment of those people that are holier than thou. It seems like they have that superior attitude and self righteousness that makes it O.K. to act and say whatever they feel like. But, they are only fooling themselves. I don't know how they can have any peace within themselves but there will always be those that think they are self righteous so it gives them that excuse, They can Act anyway they want. Everyone must just keep treading on and pushing for the truth to come out as to how this fiasco ever happened and that no one is above anyone else to try and destroy someone else. The only way to destroy the destroyers is not to be destroyed yourself. So, keep up the pressure and there are many behind you all the way. It will be known who is responsible for all of this damage. We'll all make sure that we will all know!
|
|
|
Post by freedonforever on Oct 1, 2008 19:29:42 GMT -5
Cherie, just curious, what other alternatives do you know of that would be able to have the names? With the way the situation is, it doesn't take much to figure out who would have the names and who would make the names available. So, ask Scott how he got the names. Seems like there are very few alternatives to how the names got out to anyone. We know there are answers to the questions and we plan on finding that out.
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Oct 1, 2008 19:46:18 GMT -5
So, ask Scott how he got the names. Seems like there are very few alternatives to how the names got out to anyone. We know there are answers to the questions and we plan on finding that out.
There were a LOT of people sending me information. The workers are not the only ones who were told names over there. The authorities did NOT give me names. They did their job by asking me questions. How many people do you think the twins had the chance to speak with during this whole issue over there? They were no where near the workers for quite some time. It was NOT any one or two or three or four people..... I would guess that as many as twenty people contacted me. The professing grapevine is alive and well in Michigan. Scott
|
|
|
Post by freedonforever on Oct 1, 2008 20:08:33 GMT -5
The twins were never far from the workers, they were always in contact. The twins made out the reports on the allegations, they were not passed around before they were turned into the police. If a copy of the allegations were kept, that could be very possible, but then who had the copy? One person other the workers and the therapist turned in reports to the police. The therapist would never destroy the client relationship and pass around names. So, since the names that was received were not just gossip, there was definitely a source. The workers have kept a very short rope on these girls and only very close people that have a benefit by being in close contact with the girls are in touch with them. Just curious, why would the authorities think that you may have any information about these people that were named? The professing grapevine was a lot of gossip, not critical information. Also, everyone would like to know if they were listed on the list and that is those that could get information from the workers if they wanted to share. Elders don't have the names. Ask anyone professing and they all ask if anyone knows who is on the list. So, sure does make one wonder how news gets around. It is been definitely discussed that the overseer has a list. Wonder how he would have the list when he was not around the girls as much as the other two workers. Probably because the list was shared among the workers. Just trying to add up two plus two.
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Oct 1, 2008 20:25:22 GMT -5
Cherie, just curious, what other alternatives do you know of that would be able to have the names? With the way the situation is, it doesn't take much to figure out who would have the names and who would make the names available. So, ask Scott how he got the names. Seems like there are very few alternatives to how the names got out to anyone. We know there are answers to the questions and we plan on finding that out. Just because you can't think of an alternative doesn't mean there isn't one or some...I see no reason to ask Scott. He has told you over and over where the names came from. They came from VARIOUS INDIVIDUALS who contacted him. What part of that don't you understand?
|
|
|
Post by Scott Ross on Oct 1, 2008 20:33:46 GMT -5
The twins were never far from the workers, they were always in contact.
I guess our information is a bit different on that aspect.
Not all who contacted me were professing. There are a lot of relatives who are no longer professing.
If Jerome has a list, it wasn't from me. I never gave him the names of anyone. Some names were discussed, and that is about all I will say about that.
I would imagine that the authorities talked with a lot of different people. During those talks, of course names would HAVE to come up, or the investigation would go no where. Those who were interviewed or questioned would then know something, and they would talk about it and so on.....
Wouldn't you think that Jerome would be asked at some point about some of the names that were being investigated?
While the twins have been charged with making false reports, it is also true that there are still some investigations going on. That probably wouldn't be happening if there wasn't some reason for investigating.....
|
|
|
Post by bandtroll on Oct 1, 2008 21:22:39 GMT -5
While the twins have been charged with making false reports, it is also true that there are still some investigations going on. That probably wouldn't be happening if there wasn't some reason for investigating..... I thought somewhere in this thread someone had stated it was time to 'help out' those not cleared yet, but I couldn't find it right now. I would caution against 'helping out.' Yes, be available to tell your story, but you do NOT KNOW their story. Yes, a lot of innocent people were accused, but that does not mean that is not a guilty one accused also.
|
|
|
Post by freedonforever on Oct 2, 2008 8:48:06 GMT -5
Cherie, didn't intend to ruffle your feathers so much. Asking questions for needed answers and answers that a person could accept as liable is just an opportunity that we have. When things just seem weird, I guess you shouldn't express your bewilderment to some. So, if answers are needed or questions should be asked, I'm sorry if that is something that is aggravating to you.
|
|
|
Post by dgaab on Oct 2, 2008 9:18:17 GMT -5
My take, from the miniscule information gleaned on TMB, and for what its worth, for those accused by the twins 'can' relax. Any testimony the twins might give now, whether true or not, is tainted with credibility issues. Clearly, piled up high enough to justify ‘reasonable doubt’ in any judge or juror’s decisions even if it’d ever get that far in the process.
What will occur in the future for these girls if they are truthfully sexually abused/molested, unless there’s actual physical evidence to support the crime, in the “he-said-she-said” battle will amount to a fruitless claim for them. Any reasonable DA would have the Michigan case in-hand and not pursue charges, unless as previously stated there’s actual physical evidence of a sexual abuse/molestation.
Their truthfulness in the ‘eyes of the law’ will forever be tainted, especially, if/when convicted in the current proceedings. And they have a long life ahead of them at 18.
|
|
|
Post by bandtroll on Oct 2, 2008 11:32:59 GMT -5
The other is apparently having nerve problems. I would think so. But the one so involved in everything is still the thinking and talking person for the twins. That needs to stop for any type of treatment to be effective. IF the girls are now court ordered to be in treatment, the doctors would be able to control who sees them and who doesn't. (And to an extent, they have that power without a court order.) IMO IF the (ex) worker was hurting the girls progress instead of helping, the worker would have been banned before now. One phone call or fax by the doctor to the judge could get a restraining order. IF the workers are not banned from seeing these girls during treatment, then they are not thought by the medical field to be the cause or contributor to the problem. IF the workers are not charged with aiding and abetting in the criminal case, then they are not thougth by the law to be the cause or contributor to the problem. BUT, that does not mean that the workers are the CAUSE of the pregression. My take, from the miniscule information gleaned on TMB, and for what its worth, for those accused by the twins are relax. Any testimony the twins might give now, whether true or not, is tainted with credibility issues. Clearly, piled up high enough to justify ‘reasonable doubt’ in any judge or juror’s decisions even if it’d ever get that far in the process. Agree, at this point they will (most likely) either come away with this with either the label of 'crazy' or 'lier.' So they would not likley win a 'he said' 'she said' case. They would need hard facts on their side. IF this was just 'he said' 'she said' case, then all of the accused should have been cleared at the same time. Something else is keeping the case open. Even crazy people and liers can tell the truth once in a while. If they are ruled competent, I would think the judge would hit them with maximum penlties for lying to the court about both the accusations AND their mental state AND the fact their lies resaulting in their siblings being removed from their home (The actual child abuse situation would have not required that drastic of an action.)
|
|
|
Post by degem on Oct 2, 2008 11:46:01 GMT -5
Bandtroll, many of your posts are/do make logical sense in regards to the condition etc. of those who are "mentally incompetent." I am not being rude when I say this, but my suggestion is for those who don't know what being "mentally incompetent"is or what is classified as mental illnesses, do some research on the Internet. Again putting my neck on the line,I did/do learn a tremendous amount of knowledge on what I am/was dealing with in regards to my illness.
Gem
|
|
|
Post by CherieKropp on Oct 2, 2008 11:54:13 GMT -5
Cherie, didn't intend to ruffle your feathers so much. Asking questions for needed answers and answers that a person could accept as liable is just an opportunity that we have. When things just seem weird, I guess you shouldn't express your bewilderment to some. So, if answers are needed or questions should be asked, I'm sorry if that is something that is aggravating to you. You totally misread me. I'm not ruffled at all. I believe in questioning... What I do not appreciate is someone presenting too few alternatives and insisting something has to be one or the other. I gave the stock, standard textbook answer to refute the fallacy of too few. i.e. "Just because you can't think of an alternative doesn't mean there isn't one or some..." How many times have we all made up our minds about something; and then heard a reason later, and said, "I never thought of THAT (being the case). With additional information we often revise foermer opinions. Even if additional information DOESN'T become available, our opinion may or may not be correct; and we might be better off putting the matter in our brain's "pending file" than forging ahead on either/ors and being wrong. Depends on the situation, of course. I also do not appreciate anyone DEMANDING the names of private sources. I personally put protecting my sources WAY up there in priority. I owe them a lot, and without them I would have much less information than I do. I follow their requests strictly. I think others should respect that Scott has the right to protect his sources also...and stop badgering him. He's not likely to budge. People should be able to see that by now. Give it up--Go knock on some other door...
|
|
|
Post by degem on Oct 2, 2008 11:59:50 GMT -5
I don't recall Scott "giving" up names on this board. He didn't "give up" any names either in private emails or PMs to me. I think that is respectable. Gem
|
|