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Post by harpsichord on Sept 28, 2008 9:02:09 GMT -5
Did God use this even to show how nasty and shameful it is to brand or accuse people falsely? To show both friends and workers what it is like to be on the other end of the stick--the receiving end. How many in Michigan before this event have been dissed by them and forced out for false accusations or false gossip ideas? Ok now I am outa here---
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Post by bandtroll on Sept 28, 2008 9:16:20 GMT -5
There is a whole lot more going on than just a false report made by two twins that have been found AT PRESENT, incompetent. "Custody" implies that they were either not 18, or not legally competent. This seems to be a 'legal' issue, not a 'worker' issue. "Control" again implies that they were either not 18, or not legally competent. Sounds logical for anyone wanting to become a worker. This may or maynot have anything to do with the workers if this is a "competent" issue. Again implies that they were either not 18, or not legally competent. IF "anyone could tell" then the police should have been able to tell and have treated this a 'mental health issue' at that point. If so, why were the girls not in the hospital at this point instead of __ months/years later? And when did ANYONE first say to the police that this 'could be' an issue of being 'incompetent? If the girls are 'incompetent,' what they say will mean nothing. So we shouldn't believe their accusations, but we should believe the why? Incompetent is incompetent. Exactly. This implies that someone was in control/able to control an incompetent person. Only they know if it has caused them (the person controlling) grief. I do not understand how anyone could deal with an incompetent perosn for more than a couple of minutes without being caused some grief. IF this is mental illness, yes. This assumes that someone had 'control' over the girls, or that the girls are not mentally ill. Agreed. But the law has to believe that they were acting as an 'accomplice.' The taxi driver who drops off the bank robbers at the bank is not necessarily an accomplice. This implies that there were 'instigators.' We have yet to hear that THE LAW thinks this is the case. I'm sure someone would have posted if any workers had been charged/arrested. (Personally they don't represent me in any way.) I have yet to see where they (the workers) have done anything wrong. I fail to see what gain there was for anyone in the situation.
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Post by lin on Sept 28, 2008 17:26:33 GMT -5
Scott : here are answers to your questions. Do you feel there is a need for the WINGS site given the fact that the issues of CSA have been covered up and smoothed over in the past by moving workers to other fields and not notifying the authorities?I think there is a need for people to be educated on the subject of child and sexual abuse. Part of that education is learning the proper place to report such a crime is to a law enforcement agency only. In the situation of child abuse this places the responsibility on the parents unless the parents are the offenders. In this case there is still the obligation to report to law enforcement officials. This advice is missing on Wings. Do you feel that the truth fellowship should set up its own site where people could get the correct information as to how to deal with CSA when it happens to them? (and how would you think it should be run)Information on CSA is easy to find, all has to be done is google “CSA help and recovery” or something similar. The problem is though is people being interested enough to educate themselves. I believe people are as interested in Wings for the dirt content as CSA help-and there is dirt there. Look at the posts that fussed because info about the Mich. case was not updated Do you feel that the workers have correctly handled CSA issues within the fellowship?Why mention workers only? Parents haven’t handled it correctly just as often. Look at the post on the board “You can make a difference.” He alleges abuse of his wife and her daughter but was it reported? If not, why not? The bedrock principle is-report CSA to proper authorities. The sooner the action the less the suffering. Do you think that WINGS is a good resource for those seeking information concerning CSA issues within the fellowship?Again CSA information is easy to find there really isn’t a need to duplicate the great site out there already. www.darkness2light.org/www.childluresprevention.com/www.ministrysafe.com/www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/responding_to_child_sexual_abusewww.childwelfare.gov/These are neutral unbiased sites that have no bash the fellowship/workers content and do not keep a legally questionable database of suspected and/or alleged offenders nor do they have connections to people that do. If people really care They would get educated on their own. If you could change how WINGS is run, what would you change and why?At this point I don’t think this is a practical thing to answer, because I don’t think that change is even a consideration. Change comes from within.
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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 28, 2008 19:35:25 GMT -5
Lin, Thanks for answering my questions to you. I am a bit confused with a few of your answers however.... I'll try to rephrase or re ask those questions. Scott : here are answers to your questions. Do you feel there is a need for the WINGS site given the fact that the issues of CSA have been covered up and smoothed over in the past by moving workers to other fields and not notifying the authorities?I think there is a need for people to be educated on the subject of child and sexual abuse. Part of that education is learning the proper place to report such a crime is to a law enforcement agency only. In the situation of child abuse this places the responsibility on the parents unless the parents are the offenders. In this case there is still the obligation to report to law enforcement officials. This advice is missing on Wings.I was specifically asking about the fact that issues of CSA were covered up in the past, and the need for those cover ups to be exposed. Let me ask it this way. Do you feel that cover ups of Child Sexual Abuse in the past should not be brought out into the open? Do you feel that workers involved in these cover ups should be reported to the authorities? In regards to: there is still the obligation to report to law enforcement officials. This advice is missing on Wings. I can only surmise that you haven't looked through the WINGS site. here is the page containing that information: www.wingsfortruth.info/respondingtocsa.htmThis page covers quite a bit of information. Also, on another page: www.wingsfortruth.info/resources.htmIs a list of resources for those seeking additional information. It includes links. One of those links is: www.childwelfare.gov/pubs/reslist/rl_dsp.cfm?rs_id=5&rate_chno=11-11172 Child Abuse Reporting Numbers Related Organizations List Author(s): Child Welfare Information Gateway These results are current as of: September 28, 2008 State toll-free numbers for specific agencies designated to receive and investigate reports of suspected child abuse and neglect. WINGS is very adamant about the fact that any suspected cases of CSA be reported to the proper authorities. Do you feel that the truth fellowship should set up its own site where people could get the correct information as to how to deal with CSA when it happens to them? (and how would you think it should be run)Information on CSA is easy to find, all has to be done is google “CSA help and recovery” or something similar. The problem is though is people being interested enough to educate themselves. I believe people are as interested in Wings for the dirt content as CSA help-and there is dirt there. Look at the posts that fussed because info about the Mich. case was not updatedThe question was whether you feel that the truth fellowship should set up its own site, not whether there were other sites available. For example: www.snapnetwork.org/Survivors Network of Those Abused by Priests. It is specific to a religious organization that recognized a need to address the issue of CSA within the Catholic church which had been covered up by the church. This is a model which has been used by other organizations. As far as: ... people are as interested in Wings for the dirt content as CSA help-and there is dirt there.Could you tell me SPECIFICALLY what is there that is dirt? Are you calling the first hand stories of those abused within the truth fellowship dirt? Are you saying that they are lies? If so, please point out which stories contain false information, and I will certainly look into it. Be specific please, and point out the names of those who you feel are being dishonest in what they posted. There ARE some stories which WINGS chose not to post because of lack of credible information. In regards to the information on Michigan. There was nothing to update. What was posted on WINGS was public information from news stories. That was pulled off the site after the twins were arrested for filing a false report. I would have posted any additional information if it was made public. Do you feel that the workers have correctly handled CSA issues within the fellowship?Why mention workers only? Parents haven’t handled it correctly just as often. Look at the post on the board “You can make a difference.” He alleges abuse of his wife and her daughter but was it reported? If not, why not? The bedrock principle is-report CSA to proper authorities. The sooner the action the less the suffering.
I mentioned workers only because of the instances when CSA has been reported to them in the past, the CSA was often covered up and the one guilty moved to an area where abuse occurred again. But I will rephrase the question for you. Do you feel that when overseers become aware of allegations of sexual abuse by a worker in their field that they should immediately contact the proper authorities and comply with the law, or do you feel that they should take matters in their own hands and deal with it outside of the law. In regards to the thread concerning: ....“You can make a difference.” He alleges abuse of his wife and her daughter but was it reported? If not, why not? The bedrock principle is-report CSA to proper authorities.I am well aware with the details in that case. No the PROPER authorities were not reported to. However the workers were made aware of the information. It has been a historical fact that people have went to the workers in the past with these type of issues rather than to the proper authorities. WINGS is trying to help educate people as to how to report these issues correctly. We encourage anyone with information concerning CSA which is still within the statute of limitations to contact the authorities so an investigation can take place. Do you think that WINGS is a good resource for those seeking information concerning CSA issues within the fellowship?Again CSA information is easy to find there really isn’t a need to duplicate the great site out there already.www.darkness2light.org/www.childluresprevention.com/www.ministrysafe.com/www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/responding_to_child_sexual_abusewww.childwelfare.gov/These are neutral unbiased sites that have no bash the fellowship/workers content and do not keep a legally questionable database of suspected and/or alleged offenders nor do they have connections to people that do. If people really care They would get educated on their own.The question was whether WINGS is a good resource for those seeking information concerning CSA issue within the fellowship. Could you point me to which of the sites you listed which specifically deals with CSA within the truth fellowship? Also, could you please point to those issues on the WINGS site which have bash the fellowship/workers content? You have the permission of WINGS to copy and paste to the TMB any and all information you feel fits your definition. (please do!) If you could change how WINGS is run, what would you change and why?At this point I don’t think this is a practical thing to answer, because I don’t think that change is even a consideration. Change comes from within.I totally agree that change needs to come from within the truth fellowship regarding CSA issues. I have seen changes within the last year as a matter of fact. There is a group of professing people who have talked with their various overseers concerning past and present CSA, and there have been changes made, and issues that are currently being dealt with. I have personally discussed CSA issues with two overseers, and there are 3 others who have acted on information which has been given to the members of WINGS. Do you feel that these overseers are wrong for acting on information concerning CSA which came from the WINGS group? Thanks for your response to my questions, and thanks in advance for answering these questions. Scott
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Post by lin on Sept 28, 2008 20:30:44 GMT -5
I am trying to digest some of this. The phrase below do you know this for fact, or is it accusations with no proof like the Mich. case? That phrase "workers involved in these cover ups" is libelous unless you can prove they plotted to cover up.
I was specifically asking about the fact that issues of CSA were covered up in the past, and the need for those cover ups to be exposed.
Let me ask it this way.
Do you feel that cover ups of Child Sexual Abuse in the past should not be brought out into the open?
Do you feel that workers involved in these cover ups should be reported to the authorities?
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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 28, 2008 21:32:01 GMT -5
That phrase "workers involved in these cover ups" is libelous unless you can prove they plotted to cover up.
Recently a senior worker was removed from the work. His CSA issues were covered up in the past. This has been acknowledged by at least four overseers. It is outside of the statute of limitations. There were several workers involved in the cover ups involved in that worker's case in the past. Some of them are now deceased. This is acknowledged by some of the current overseers, and they acted upon statements given by women who are both exes and still professing. Scott
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Sept 28, 2008 21:39:13 GMT -5
I have somewhat to reply to your post Scot. The information came from the ABC news upon which has some very misleading info. Upon which has been requested for me to give no further details. Because, of pending recourse.
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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 28, 2008 22:53:29 GMT -5
White Knight, I am not sure what you are referring to. In my post I quoted what the prosecutor said, and what the court records said, and what the family lawyer said. I was trying to make the point that the family is back together because the parents have complied with everything mandated by the court, and that they had no charges pressed against them. From my above post: The parents complied with everything the court ruled, and the 4 children have been returned to them. This whole case in regards t o the family should be wrapped up at the final hearing in November. The purpose of that hearing is mostly a formality to clear up a few remaining items from the last court hearing.In the post on March 31st I had a news article by SUSAN YOUNGER staff reporter, and I had a link to the abc news station that reported on the case. Scott
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Post by ScholarGal on Sept 29, 2008 17:27:47 GMT -5
Past cover-ups and CSA issues are relevant because perpetrators rarely stop their abusive behavior without legal, medical, and psychological intervention. Current overseers, workers, and elders need to understand that the proper action is to report abuse to the authorities. If current overseers, workers, elders, or church members know about past cover-ups, it is important that those situations are dealt with to prevent future abuse from happening. If it is too late for legal recourse (statute of limitations), the accused should be referred to a professional for counseling and treatment. If someone who "did the cover-up" is in a position of authority, that is a stain on the reputation of the church. Lin, how do you feel about the Catholic bishops and archbishops who covered up abuse and shuffled the perpetrator priests? I was specifically asking about the fact that issues of CSA were covered up in the past, and the need for those cover ups to be exposed. Let me ask it this way. Do you feel that cover ups of Child Sexual Abuse in the past should not be brought out into the open? Do you feel that workers involved in these cover ups should be reported to the authorities? What is going to be learned or gained by opening all of this up now. I feel it should have been taken to the law enforcement agencies at the time it happened. Why blame workers when parents or the victims did nothing. Sad, but I feel the parents of the victims are the ones first of all that let the children down. It is the obligation of the parent to keep a safe haven.
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Post by ilylo on Sept 29, 2008 17:29:34 GMT -5
I see that lin has been taking question-avoidance lessons from nathan. Scott's list of questions were all so very neatly side-stepped.
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Post by ilylo on Sept 29, 2008 20:35:45 GMT -5
That's BS, but then again truthfulness isn't your thing.
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Sept 29, 2008 21:48:12 GMT -5
I'm trying to understand why the twins are in the hospital? "Why now?" Or have they been in the hospital ever since the investigator said 'no more'? Does anyone have dates on this case? WK's reply; This mess started Sept/ 2nd /07 the four younger ones were removed from the home Sept/ 5th/ 07, case started Sept4th/ 07 When did the twins start accusing people? WK's reply; Twins with helpers started accusing people in Nov 2007. When did they first go to the police? WK's reply; Sept/4/07, with there helpers. How many times did they go to the police? WK's reply; Quite often. When did the investigator say 'no more'? WK's reply; The judge told the sister workers no more. Back in April/May 2008. When were charges filed against the twins? WK's reply; 6/26/08 warrent was authorized, 7/1/08 charged, appeared 7/11/08 When did they go into the hospital? WK's reply; One was sent on the 19th Sept 08 after the hearing. The other on the 26th of Sep 08, after her hearing. And their court date was 9/19? WK's reply; 9/19/08, & 9/26/08.
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dchaplin
New Member
Innocent until proven guilty. Liberty and justice for all. Let forgiveness prevail!!!!
Posts: 34
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Post by dchaplin on Sept 29, 2008 22:17:58 GMT -5
Scott Said: We encourage anyone with information concerning CSA which is still within the statute of limitations to contact the authorities so an investigation can take place.
Dave Says: Just for the record, there is no statute of limitations for criminal sexual conduct!
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 30, 2008 6:51:17 GMT -5
We encourage anyone with information concerning CSA which is still within the statute of limitations to contact the authorities so an investigation can take place. Just for the record, there is no statute of limitations for criminal sexual conduct! It's my understanding that in America, your last sentence depends on the state you live in. Thanks for your earlier response to my post, Dave.
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dchaplin
New Member
Innocent until proven guilty. Liberty and justice for all. Let forgiveness prevail!!!!
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Post by dchaplin on Sept 30, 2008 7:03:34 GMT -5
quote author=cheriekropp board=general thread=11217 post=216393 time=1222519728]Dave, I too am a WINGS board member and have been from its inception early in 2008.
“I'm trying to understand your concern. I find your concern for protecting mentally ill and/or incompetent people admirable, but to go to bat for those who are abusers seems...misplaced.”
To answer your question Cherie,my concern in part is this. It is a fact that many abusers where abused as children their selves and because of this abuse they developed mental illness. My question to you is, at what age do you stop representing a child? Do you still represent a child until they are 17 ? In Michigan 17 is the legal age to become an Adult and to take responsibility for their actions. Is it your policy to stop representing a child at15 or at 12 or at 10? At what age do you give up on a child and turn on them? If a child is abused and develops mental illness as a result of it and in turn abuses another child at age 16, do you now turn that child over to the authorities and attempt to have them arrested? If a child at 10 years old abuses another child, what is your stance on that? So then in the same light, if a child was abused and matures to the age of 27 and abuses their own child what is your stance on that? If I understand correctly you have given up on them at some point, condemn them and believe they should answer for what they have done. The other part of my concern as I stated in my earlier post, is that you are violating Federal Law and the rights of innocent people by compiling information on them based on rumors and gossip supplied by the envious and deceived, self glory seekers. I know for a fact there was information supplied to Scott through e-mails from certain ex workers from Michigan they were supposedly going to use in court against me. I find this interesting that they set themselves up as Judges but the prosecutors viewed it in a complete different light. These same ex workers accused many others in this State including an elder brother worker who had to step down because of these accusations. These ex workers also accused this elder brother to one of the Elders and told this Elder they new he was guilty even though they had no proof or witnesses that were present. They are still trying to put innocent people behind bars. It’s this kind of garbage we are tired of and are putting a stop to. If you doubt you are in violation of these Federal laws, you can contact the Department of Health and Human Services at 1-877-696-6775 I’m sure they will be happy to assist you, I find them to be very accommodating. JUST FOR THE RECORD, ANYONE ELSE INVOLVED IN SUPPLYING INFORMATION TO THE WRONG SOURCES IS IN VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW ALSO!!!! THERE ARE PROPER AUTHORITES TO CONTACT. THE STATE POLICE, THE COUNTY SHERIFF, THE LOCAL POLICE, THE DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL SERVICES (OR NOW KNOWN IN MICHIGAN AS THE FAMILY INDEPENDENCE AGENCY). THESE ARE ALL GOVERNMENT AUTHORITY AGENCIES OPERATING WITHIN THE LAW AND IS THE PROPER CHANNEL FOR THESE TYPE OF ALLEGATIONS.
“Is there another reason for your concern about the WINGS List of suspected and convicted Abusers that you haven’t mentioned? Or that I'm not getting or perhaps missed in reading your posts?”
To answer your question Cherie, yes there are some additional reasons for my concern about the WINGS list of suspected and convicted Abusers that I haven’t mentioned. First and foremost it is called the Law of loving kindness, mercy, forgiveness. God Loves the sinner but he hates the sin. God does not want one soul to be lost. Job 33: 27 He looketh upon men and if any say, I have sinned and perverted that which was right and it profited me not; 28 he will deliver his soul from going into the pit and his life shall see the light. 29 Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man, 30 to bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living. Divine love, unconditional love, and love so strong He gave his only son for us sinful people so we can all have salvation. From the worst murdering terrorist to the pettiest of sinners it is all sin in Gods eyes and can be washed away in the blood of Jesus so that all can be saved. I think of ones in the Bible that committed terrible crimes. Look at King David and what he did to Urriah. He was forgiven because he repented and had a broken and a contrite spirit. He got help and he wasn’t even mentally ill. Look at Saul who became Paul and was converted to preach the Gospel even though he aided and abetted the murder of Stephen and others. There is a reason these stories are left on record. I don’t see any where in your websites where you offer compassion or help for the mentally ill and/or incompetent. These people are not beyond help. Do you have any means whereby you offer these people any form of help as far as counseling of directing them to counseling? What I have seen so far is that you condemn them and hope to send them to prison. I believe I have made my point here so I won’t respond to the rest of your questions.
One other point regarding abuse and mental illness. It is my belief and stance that these twins need counseling. I do not hold them responsible for what they have done. It is my personal belief they were abused in the Russian Orphanages and as a result of that developed problems and scars. So when you are talking about abusers, there you go, It is my hope that these girls will get help and not be convicted. Even though I fully support the parents, they understand my feelings on this. I also spent quite a bit of time with these girls in 2007 and 2008 since they lived with my wife’s parents and we helped them with there work and shopping and so on. These girls are not beyond help. Like I said I don’t hold these girls responsible for what they have done. I can’t say that about others involved. They need to be held responsible for what they have done.
Any other questions I can answer for you? Sincerely, Dave.
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Post by bandtroll on Sept 30, 2008 7:21:05 GMT -5
I'm trying to understand why the twins are in the hospital? "Why now?" Or have they been in the hospital ever since the investigator said 'no more'? When did they go into the hospital? WK's reply; One was sent on the 19th Sept 08 after the hearing. The other on the 26th of Sep 08, after her hearing. I was in the court room on Fri. One twin was present as was the two ex workers. ... The other twin was in the hospital and did not appear. She is to released the first of the week, and she is to appear in court next Fri. White Knight, Thanks for the update, but your data is not the same as what was posted earlier on this board. If they are in the hospital as your timeline says, under court order, that I understand. What I was not understanding is if they were in the hospital before the court order, but six/12 months after they had shown their 'incompentent' behavior
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dchaplin
New Member
Innocent until proven guilty. Liberty and justice for all. Let forgiveness prevail!!!!
Posts: 34
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Post by dchaplin on Sept 30, 2008 7:44:24 GMT -5
dchaplin New Member member is online Joined: Apr 2008 Gender: Male Posts: 13 Re: Michigan « Reply #148 on Sept 27, 2008, 4:33am » -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hey Scott, I'm back requesting some more clarifications, THIS IS A REPOST, I RECEIVED NO PREVIOUS RESPONSE?! I wonder if you can give me a definition of what you consider to be fair is? Only posting information which is in the public domain in regards to ongoing court issues, information from other public sources such as newspapers or television news sources. Records held by school system counselors which are made available to the public regarding reports turned in. Information given by public officials. SO THAN, YOUR DEFINITION OF FAIR IS TO POST INFORMATION THAT IS ONLY SPECULATION AND HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN TO BE TRUE, WHICH YOU ALSO VALIDATED BY POSTING IN YOUR OWN WORDS. IT IS TRUE YOU DIDN'T USE ANYONES NAMES, HOWEVER IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE WHO YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. IT IS IMPLIED BY YOU VALIDATING IT IN YOUR OWN WORDS WHO THEY ARE. THUS MY STATEMENT OF FALSE ACCUSATIONS, BEING POSTED HERE AND ON YOUR W.I.N.G.S SITE. I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT BOTH OF THESE SITES REFER TO THE TRUTH AND ARE SO FAR FROM IT. Who did I falsely accuse? The only thing listed on WINGS were the original news articles which was in the newspaper and a link to the ABC news which reported the investigation. THATS MY POINT, YOU ARE VALIDATING THIS INFORMATION BY POSTING IT UNDER YOUR NAME. Do you consider it fair to compile a list of suspects on your W.I.N.G.S. web site? If you are referring to the names reported in Michigan, those names were not placed in any database because of the involvement in the Michigan case. There were names that came up during the investigation which were linked to other investigations in the past by law enforcement however, but were reported separate of the Michigan case involving the twins. YOUR OWN WORDS. www.wingsfortruth.info/database.htmWINGS maintains a confidential list of sex offenders; convicted, alleged and suspected. The list is solely for the use of the WINGS group members and is not given out to the public. Sources of information remain confidential. This database has several uses. One is to answer legitimate inquires as to whether or not a particular name is on the WINGS list. Another use is to be able to help with legal investigations. Another is to aid victims who elect to press charges. WINGS also uses the database for statistical analysis, particularly in two areas: numbers of CSA offences and movements of Offenders. I question the legality of your form you have people fill out to submit peoples names and personal information, since some forms of chid abuse are considered mental illness by those that inflict it, does your web site comply with the Federal Governments Guidelines for (HIPAA) THE HEALTH INSURANCE PORTABILITY AND ACCOUNTABILITY ACT OF 1996 Why do you feel it is illegal to submit names of individuals that are suspected of Child Sexual Abuse? These names are not stored on the WINGS site, but rather used to cross reference with other reports involving the same name. IT IS ILLEGAL TO SUBMIT NAMES OF INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE MENTALLY ILL AND INCOMPETENT. Protected health information (PHI), under the US Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA), is ANY INFORMATION ABOUT HEALTH STATUS, provision of health care, or payment for health care that can be LINKED TO AN INDIVIDUAL. THIS IS INTERPRETED RATHER BROADLY AND INCLUDES ANY PART OF A PATIENT'S MEDICAL RECORDS or payment history. Here is a partial list of the 18 identifiers. 1. Names 2. Phone numbers 3. Fax numbers 4. electronic mail addresses 5. Social Security numbers 6. license plate numbers 7. INTERNET PROTOCOL (IP) ADDRESS NUMBERS and the list goes on. I will scan and post the entire list at a later date. IT IS ALSO UNETHICAL TO COMPILE A LIST OF INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY SUSPECTS. My personal belief is it is illegal also but I haven't proven this yet. It could also be pointed out that at no time did the family plead NOT GUILTY to the charges against them, but rather entered a no contest plea. THE ORIGINAL ATTORNEY RECOMENDED A NO CONTEST PLEA TO EXPEDITE THE RETURN OF THE 4 YOUNGER CHILDREN, BUT THE CAMPAIGN OF THE DECEIVED BEGAN AND THE JUDGE STOPPED THAT FROM HAPPENING UNTIL A FULL INVESTIGATION WAS FORTH COMING. Some of the names linked to the separate child sexual abuse case involving the twins remain under investigation at this time. THATS CORRECT, SOME OF THE FALSELY ACCUSED REMAIN UNDER INVESTIGATION, AND MYSELF AND OTHERS SUPPORT THEM. WE WILL TESTIFY IN COURT ON THEIR BEHALF IF NECESSARY, THE TRUTH WILL EVENTUALLY COME OUT AND THERE WILL BE THOSE THAT WILL ANSWER FOR THE ONGOING EVIL OF TRYING TO PUT INNOCENT PEOPLE BEHIND BARS. JESUS WAS DELIVERED TO PILATE BECAUSE OF ENVY, THE SAME APPLYS HERE. ENVY, ILL WILL AND THOSE SEEKING VAIN GLORY. WE KNOW WHO THEY ARE. PSALMS 94; VERSES 21,22 AND 23. THEY GATHER THEMSELVES TOGETHER AGAINST THE SOUL OF THE RIGHTEOUS, AND CONDEMN THE INNOCENT BLOOD. BUT THE LORD IS MY DEFENCE; AND MY GOD IS THE ROCK OF MY REFUGE. AND HE SHALL BRING UPON THEM THEIR OWN INIQUITY, AND SHALL CUT THEM OF IN THEIR OWN WICKEDNESS; YEA, THE LORD OUR GOD SHALL CUT THEM OFF. I CAN ONLY SAY AMEN TO THAT! All for now, as always, just wondering???!!! Dave. « Last Edit: Sept 27, 2008, 4:35am by dchaplin » Report Post - Link to Post - Back to Top Logged
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Post by ScholarGal on Sept 30, 2008 7:59:50 GMT -5
Dave,
I thought HIPAA only applied to health care providers and their business associates. * Lawyers * Accountants * Consultants * Billing Companies * Collection Agents * Practice Managers * Medical Transcription Service ==================== Since WINGS does not collect medical records, I'm not sure how HIPAA would apply.
HIPAA would apply to a doctor or psychologist. If WINGS called a doctor or psychologist and asked, "Is Mr. X a patient of your practice for treatment of CSA?" then the health care provider would be bound by HIPAA. The health care provider could not confirm or deny any relationship with a patient, much less disclose treatment or medical conditions.
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dchaplin
New Member
Innocent until proven guilty. Liberty and justice for all. Let forgiveness prevail!!!!
Posts: 34
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Post by dchaplin on Sept 30, 2008 8:20:35 GMT -5
Scholargal wrote: " Since WINGS does not collect any health info, I'm not sure how HIPPAA would apply.
Dave responded with: Mental Illness is considered a Mental Health Issue. Mental health falls within the HIPPAA guidelines of protected information.
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Post by ScholarGal on Sept 30, 2008 8:23:30 GMT -5
Scholargal wrote: " Since WINGS does not collect any health info, I'm not sure how HIPPAA would apply. Dave responded with: Mental Illness is considered a Mental Health Issue. Mental health falls within the HIPPAA guidelines of protected information. Let me repeat... HIPAA laws apply to medical providers and their business associates. How is WINGS a medical provider or business associate??
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dchaplin
New Member
Innocent until proven guilty. Liberty and justice for all. Let forgiveness prevail!!!!
Posts: 34
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Post by dchaplin on Sept 30, 2008 9:42:40 GMT -5
Scholargal wrote: " Since WINGS does not collect any health info, I'm not sure how HIPPAA would apply. Dave responded with: Mental Illness is considered a Mental Health Issue. Mental health falls within the HIPPAA guidelines of protected information. Let me repeat... HIPAA laws apply to medical providers and their business associates. How is WINGS a medical provider or business associate?? Per Scott Rosses own post: We are : A clincial psychology counselor. We Have: 2 degrees in psychology, 1 working on psychological degree. I believe a clincial psychologist counselor is involved in mental health!!! I also believed the WINGS site is not in compliance with the HIPAA guidelines for collecting information on individuals. all for now, sincerely, Dave.
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 30, 2008 9:58:13 GMT -5
FYI: The 7 WINGS Group members do not offer CSA counseling to the CSA victims who come to WINGS - WINGS does advise them get counseling from a qualified professional.
In other words, WINGS does not provide HEALTH CARE. It is a support network.
Therefore the HIPAA guidelines do not apply to WINGS
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Post by Scott Ross on Sept 30, 2008 10:09:33 GMT -5
Hi Dave, I thought that most of your questions were answered. I'll try to add some color to this to make sense of the new questions/statements from you. I'll try to use blue/red for the original questions/answers. Me being blue and you being red.... Hopefully I'll get this broken down. Following that I will italicize any new questions/statements from you.... Hopefully it'll be readable when I am done. If nothing else, it will be colorful! Hey Scott, I'm back requesting some more clarifications, THIS IS A REPOST, I RECEIVED NO PREVIOUS RESPONSE?!I wonder if you can give me a definition of what you consider to be fair is? Only posting information which is in the public domain in regards to ongoing court issues, information from other public sources such as newspapers or television news sources. Records held by school system counselors which are made available to the public regarding reports turned in. Information given by public officials. SO THAN, YOUR DEFINITION OF FAIR IS TO POST INFORMATION THAT IS ONLY SPECULATION AND HAS NOT BEEN PROVEN TO BE TRUE, WHICH YOU ALSO VALIDATED BY POSTING IN YOUR OWN WORDS. IT IS TRUE YOU DIDN'T USE ANYONES NAMES, HOWEVER IT IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE WHO YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT. IT IS IMPLIED BY YOU VALIDATING IT IN YOUR OWN WORDS WHO THEY ARE. THUS MY STATEMENT OF FALSE ACCUSATIONS, BEING POSTED HERE AND ON YOUR W.I.N.G.S SITE. I FIND IT INTERESTING THAT BOTH OF THESE SITES REFER TO THE TRUTH AND ARE SO FAR FROM IT.Who did I falsely accuse? The only thing listed on WINGS were the original news articles which was in the newspaper and a link to the ABC news which reported the investigation. By posting information that is from a news source is NOT posting it in my own words. I am simply copying what has already been reported by others and read/seen/heard by many prior to my post. It does not validate anything. For example, if I post the following from today's newspaper it doesn't validate it. Woman: 'Cop' sexually assaulted her during stop
North Branch woman says official-looking police vehicle pulled her over; police investigate report, offer advice
By SUSAN YOUNGER Staff reporter
MAYFIELD TWP. -- Law enforcement is hunting for a police impostor suspected of sexually attacking a young woman he pulled over on pretense of a traffic stop early morning Sept. 20. Advertisement The victim, 21, had no reason to suspect she wasn't being pulled over by a real police officer after 1 a.m. while she was returning from work. "He made me spread out and put my hands on the roof," said Beth. "He told me to take off my clothes."
Beth, who was frightened and believed she would be in trouble for driving with a suspended license, complied. That's when he sexually attacked her with his hands and mouth.
"He said, 'ladys are damned to hell,'" said Beth. "I was screaming. He ripped me and it hurt me so much. I was so scared. I just let him do what he wanted."
The slender white male suspect is described as between 35 and 45 years old, about 150 to 175 pounds, and of medium height. He has brown eyes that appear sunken. He is clean shaven with black curly hair and wore a brown police-like uniform and hat.
Parks distributed a wanted person bulletin throughout Lapeer and to other counties. He and other investigators have followed up leads in Lapeer, Genesee and Sanilac counties.
Anyone who recognizes the suspect or may have observed the Crown Victoria on or near Fish Lake Road recently is asked to call Parks. He's also looking for citizens who saw the vehicle parked at Stephen's Mill Market or Beyers Road when the incident took place. Call Parks at (810) 245-1381.
Susan Younger may be reached at (810) 664-0811, Ext. 8122 or susan.younger@lapeergroup.com. Now, do we know that this is in fact a true story? Does this mean I am validating this story by posting it here? I used this because this is news from the same reporter who filed what you are offended by me posting. To me it is information, and does not reflect whether the news is the 'truth' or not. (Since there are many from Michigan who read here, perhaps they may be able to help law enforcement in this matter) I edited the story to make it shorter Here is the full story: countypress.com/stories/092808/loc_20080928116.shtmlTHATS MY POINT, YOU ARE VALIDATING THIS INFORMATION BY POSTING IT UNDER YOUR NAME. Has anyone filed charges against the reporter for what she reported in the newspaper? Do you consider it fair to compile a list of suspects on your W.I.N.G.S. web site? If you are referring to the names reported in Michigan, those names were not placed in any database because of the involvement in the Michigan case. There were names that came up during the investigation which were linked to other investigations in the past by law enforcement however, but were reported separate of the Michigan case involving the twins. YOUR OWN WORDS. www.wingsfortruth.info/database.htm
WINGS maintains a confidential list of sex offenders; convicted, alleged and suspected. The list is solely for the use of the WINGS group members and is not given out to the public. Sources of information remain confidential.
This database has several uses. One is to answer legitimate inquires as to whether or not a particular name is on the WINGS list. Another use is to be able to help with legal investigations. Another is to aid victims who elect to press charges. WINGS also uses the database for statistical analysis, particularly in two areas: numbers of CSA offences and movements of Offenders.I question the legality of your form you have people fill out to submit peoples names and personal information, since some forms of chid abuse are considered mental illness by those that inflict it, does your web site comply with the Federal Governments Guidelines for (HIPAA) THE HEALTH INSURANCE PORTABILITY AND ACCOUNTABILITY ACT OF 1996Why do you feel it is illegal to submit names of individuals that are suspected of Child Sexual Abuse? These names are not stored on the WINGS site, but rather used to cross reference with other reports involving the same name.IT IS ILLEGAL TO SUBMIT NAMES OF INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE MENTALLY ILL AND INCOMPETENT. Not sure what you mean here. We have no idea whether someone is mentally ill or incompetent. Protected health information (PHI), under the US Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA), is ANY INFORMATION ABOUT HEALTH STATUS, provision of health care, or payment for health care that can be LINKED TO AN INDIVIDUAL. THIS IS INTERPRETED RATHER BROADLY AND INCLUDES ANY PART OF A PATIENT'S MEDICAL RECORDS or payment history.
Here is a partial list of the 18 identifiers. 1. Names 2. Phone numbers 3. Fax numbers 4. electronic mail addresses 5. Social Security numbers 6. license plate numbers 7. INTERNET PROTOCOL (IP) ADDRESS NUMBERS and the list goes on. I will scan and post the entire list at a later date.
IT IS ALSO UNETHICAL TO COMPILE A LIST OF INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY SUSPECTS. My personal belief is it is illegal also but I haven't proven this yet. My personal belief is it is legal. It would be like people involved in a neighborhood watch program writing down the license plate numbers of vehicles they don't recognize in their neighborhood. If something were to happen in the neighborhood, they could turn the license plate numbers over to the authorities for them to check in to. Nothing illegal in that, and in fact that is how neighborhood watch programs are handled... With the blessing of law enforcement. It could also be pointed out that at no time did the family plead NOT GUILTY to the charges against them, but rather entered a no contest plea.THE ORIGINAL ATTORNEY RECOMENDED A NO CONTEST PLEA TO EXPEDITE THE RETURN OF THE 4 YOUNGER CHILDREN, BUT THE CAMPAIGN OF THE DECEIVED BEGAN AND THE JUDGE STOPPED THAT FROM HAPPENING UNTIL A FULL INVESTIGATION WAS FORTH COMING.Not sure of your point. I pointed out a fact, and you are telling what the family lawyer recommended. My post was not in error. Some of the names linked to the separate child sexual abuse case involving the twins remain under investigation at this time.THATS CORRECT, SOME OF THE FALSELY ACCUSED REMAIN UNDER INVESTIGATION, AND MYSELF AND OTHERS SUPPORT THEM. WE WILL TESTIFY IN COURT ON THEIR BEHALF IF NECESSARY, THE TRUTH WILL EVENTUALLY COME OUT AND THERE WILL BE THOSE THAT WILL ANSWER FOR THE ONGOING EVIL OF TRYING TO PUT INNOCENT PEOPLE BEHIND BARS. JESUS WAS DELIVERED TO PILATE BECAUSE OF ENVY, THE SAME APPLYS HERE. ENVY, ILL WILL AND THOSE SEEKING VAIN GLORY. WE KNOW WHO THEY ARE.PSALMS 94; VERSES 21,22 AND 23. THEY GATHER THEMSELVES TOGETHER AGAINST THE SOUL OF THE RIGHTEOUS, AND CONDEMN THE INNOCENT BLOOD. BUT THE LORD IS MY DEFENCE; AND MY GOD IS THE ROCK OF MY REFUGE. AND HE SHALL BRING UPON THEM THEIR OWN INIQUITY, AND SHALL CUT THEM OF IN THEIR OWN WICKEDNESS; YEA, THE LORD OUR GOD SHALL CUT THEM OFF.
I CAN ONLY SAY AMEN TO THAT! If they were falsely accused, why are they still under investigation if the rest of you have been cleared? You are telling us that you know they are innocent, but that they remain under investigation. Since the authorities cleared the rest of you, I am confident that anyone else who is innocent will be cleared also. It is their job to investigate and determine the truth. That has been my point all along. There is no need to speculate here on the board or try to convict anyone here. We need to let the court system and authorities do their job. All for now, as always, just wondering???!!! DaveHope that cleared things up for you Dave. Scott
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dchaplin
New Member
Innocent until proven guilty. Liberty and justice for all. Let forgiveness prevail!!!!
Posts: 34
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Post by dchaplin on Sept 30, 2008 12:01:14 GMT -5
Hope that cleared things up for you Dave.
Scott
Clear as mud or should I say dirt! Dave.
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Sept 30, 2008 20:55:39 GMT -5
WK's reply; One was sent on the 19th Sept 08 after the hearing. The other on the 26th of Sep 08, after her hearing. I was in the court room on Fri. One twin was present as was the two ex workers. ... The other twin was in the hospital and did not appear. She is to released the first of the week, and she is to appear in court next Fri. White Knight, Thanks for the update, but your data is not the same as what was posted earlier on this board. If they are in the hospital as your timeline says, under court order, that I understand. What I was not understanding is if they were in the hospital before the court order, but six/12 months after they had shown their 'incompentent' behavior Sorry but my data is correct, and my postings are correct, the problem we have, is some posts throughout these threads were deleted by others. So I will say it again. All through this mess, when the twins were to appear in court or when they were to be tested. One of the twins would always play the hospital card thing and book herself in. That’s not incompetent that’s playing the system.
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Post by jhjmr on Sept 30, 2008 21:31:00 GMT -5
The fact that keeps getting posted which was proven false in lie detector test and questioning, is that no, NO HAMMER was used. Could you imagine a judge not calling that a crime? That is a complete false allegation! A no contest plea was as stated, a call the attorney thought would be good to get the children home. And that was a call that would not have been used if the outcome would have been known. Everyone knows that an attorney gives advise, and the client thinks what they advise would be wise, so why is everyone trying to make it out as if there were terrible things and a no plea would be saying that a person was guilty of a crime? That is implicating something not true. The case turned out completely different than was expected and it wasn't the big brutal story that everyone thought was going to be exciting, so try to make it something even though it was some things that needed to be corrected and the children came home and everyone tries to pick up the pieces and go on with their lives. The children were corrected like many are, with a belt, that the courts don't allow. Or put in a room like many many parents tell their children, go to your room. The same twins that lies about the sexual abuse and many other things, were the same twins that turned in the report about the family that had the children removed before anything was ever questioned or checked. The report was full of lies also. So, sorry it didn't make a big wild story and lets be thankful for it!
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Post by freedonforever on Sept 30, 2008 21:33:42 GMT -5
Am still wondering how Scott says he got the list of the 30 or so men first listed. That has not been posted. It is either the police or the workers. Just wonder which one?
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White Knight
Senior Member
THE SHADOW KNOWS. In the shadow of the highest is a refuge from all fear.
Posts: 510
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Post by White Knight on Sept 30, 2008 21:33:54 GMT -5
bandtroll, the only reason for any lawsuit was to put the offenders on the witness stand. In a civil lawsuit, depositions can be required in the suing parties Attorneys office and recorded. This testimony then can be used in cross examining the defendant(s) on the witness stand because they cannot plead the fifth amendment and they must testify in a civil lawsuit. This information then can be admitted as evidence in the criminal proceeding, which would have occured if charges where brought against us accused. This was a defense strategy and nothing more. I dropped my lawsuit as soon as I was cleared in Gaylord and in Lapeer. White Knight was considering the same defense strategy but he was cleared around the same time I was. We were in the original 10 that were accused. Very valid reason. I haven't said much about how I 'feel' about this case, and I doubt it would change how I feel, unless the facts were on their side. I do know people who have been accused, and I do understand what having this on ones record can mean. (But 'Rest of your life' is just a slight exaggeration, right?) Yes, what you were trying to do makes sence, thanks for the input. IF you understand the law as I do you would know. These, things, stay with you/against you for the rest of your life. Is done by codes in an open file or hidden. Pending if one has been convicted or not. Plus the fact most people don't know about expunging or to get a criminal recorded check done from all levels. This can cost about or up to $140.00 this is including finger print and photo search.
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