hinds
Junior Member
Posts: 142
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Post by hinds on May 11, 2004 13:52:30 GMT -5
Ha wrote : "Do you by any chance remember which country (or countries) set the UN up in the first place and with what purpose ?" www.state.gov/p/io/rls/fs/2003/23867.htmps...the arguing on this thread is really giving me a headache.
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Post by inatent on May 11, 2004 14:11:44 GMT -5
"We don't conquer countries -- we rebuild them.". . . . Japan, Germany, Vietnam, Afganstan, Iraq - we've done a damn fine job! Well, of the five countries you mentioned, I've only been to three of them, but I can tell you that there are many people in each of these countries who are very thankful for the what our country has saved them from and provided for their assistance. Oh, and I think you left out a great photo of a place in New York City where there used to be two very tall buildings standing, and I don't recall any offers from the group responsible for their destruction offering to help build them up again. inatent
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Thankful For The Help
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Post by Thankful For The Help on May 11, 2004 15:40:12 GMT -5
These people are thanking Raytheon for the missle they got This gentleman is thankful he will not have to put his horse down himself. This man is thankful his friends were not injured as badly as he was These kids are thankful they don't have to go to school for the next year or so By the way, these are not the real horrors of war. You will have to click aztlan.net/iraqichildrenhorror.htm yourself to see the truely thankful. Don't go on about the WTC and that line of crap. Terrorists crashed planes and people died. That is somewhat different than a nation that calls itself civilized attacking a people for no reason. I kind of hoped we would not be the terrorists in this but with the news coming back from the front - well, you have seen the photos.
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Post by no name on May 11, 2004 16:22:15 GMT -5
These people are thanking Raytheon for the missle they got This gentleman is thankful he will not have to put his horse down himself. This man is thankful his friends were not injured as badly as he was These kids are thankful they don't have to go to school for the next year or so By the way, these are not the real horrors of war. You will have to click to see the truely thankful. Don't go on about the WTC and that line of crap. Terrorists crashed planes and people died. That is somewhat different than a nation that calls itself civilized attacking a people for no reason. I kind of hoped we would not be the terrorists in this but with the news coming back from the front - well, you have seen the photos. Hey, by the way -- I've seen such photos; so don't think that what you're displaying here (with your negative agenda in mind) changes anything I've said or somehow reveals something "new" to me. And what happened at the WTC isn't a line of "crap" -- even though there are efforts to have that memory erased. The U.S. didn't attack Iraq for no reason, and we weren't attacking their people. Attempts to compare us with the evils of terroism is so typical, but also completely wrong -- despite continued (and desperate) efforts to convince people who know better. As before -- go find some pictures that prove my point (you seem to be good at posting pictures : . There's an abundance of uplifting and positive news in Iraq (and yes -- thankfulness and appreciation!! gasp!!! -- more than you would probably be willing to admit)! What you posted only proves your distortion, but it still does not diminish the truth of Inatent's (or my own) original posts. Sorry. But since many people react emotionally to pictures without always knowing the full story, it's always so inflammatory to show pictures of destruction/death and nothing else, isn't it? Endeavors to provoke conclusions based solely on one-sided visual images (and not the complete "picture") don't fly with me -- especially since I know better . . . . nice try.
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Post by Happy to be bombed on May 11, 2004 17:29:30 GMT -5
You go and show photos to prove your point. Don't expect others to do your work. An abundance of good and uplifting news from Iraq? Like 129 combat deaths in April? Photos of prisoners being humiliated? What was the reason we attacked Iraq? Weapons of mass destruction? Terrorist links? Oh wait - Bush said those were not true after all. maybe it was another war to end all wars. "We weren't attacking their people" - where did all the dead and wounded come from? Sure you have seen such photos. Guess they weren't people you knew.
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Post by inatent on May 11, 2004 17:42:33 GMT -5
. . . . Don't go on about the WTC and that line of crap. . . . . Both attacks on the World Trade Center are 100% germane to the argument. When, in the process of activities essential to the protection of our existence, casualties are inflicted by the United States (the same applies to Israel), they are ancillary to the purpose, and we have generally taken every reasonable precaution to prevent them. The numerous attacks on our citizens in the past several years were for the purpose on inflicting maximum damage with the full intent to inflict death and suffering of innocent people, and the eventual destruction of our society. The former is comparable to a traffic accident caused by a fire truck on it’s way to put out a fire. The latter is like the arsonist who started the fire in the first place. inatent
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Post by Sad Sam on May 11, 2004 18:16:02 GMT -5
"When, in the process of activities essential to the protection of our existence, casualties are inflicted by the United States (the same applies to Israel), they are ancillary to the purpose, and we have generally taken every reasonable precaution to prevent them." Protect our existance from the weapons of mass destruction? Since there was no threat to the existance of the US from Iraq there was no need to attack. The US government fabricated reasons to attack, lied to the citizens of the US and the rest of the world, and now has no clue what to do to get out of the mess. The WTC terrorists were not looking to kill people. They were intent on hitting symbolic targets. If you want to kill people you crash planes into sites where there are a lot of people. A stadium with 70,000 perhaps.
ss
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Post by Reader on May 11, 2004 20:13:30 GMT -5
Mission accomplished:
The first 2 photos in your post make the text on page 8 of this thread difficult to read.
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Post by no name on May 11, 2004 20:19:03 GMT -5
You go and show photos to prove your point. Don't expect others to do your work. And the above just reinforces what I already said . . . knew it! Yep. Even soldiers from Iraq are wondering why the good news isn't being actively reported. But Geraldo Rivera once said "Reporters don't report buildings that don't burn." Same concept of normal life here in the U.S.; we generally only hear about all the bad news that goes on -- not about how life is normal and sane for most people in our country. I hate it when we lose any of our brave men and women. But one has to keep things in proper perspective, or their outlook will be warped. Do you know about how many U.S. soldiers we lost in ONE day during WWII?! On D-Day, we lost well over 6,000 men – that was on only one day!! Yeah, and boy how this issue has been blown all out of proportion! What those soldiers did infuriates me, because unfortunately it (incorrectly) reflects badly on the military as a whole. But I also know that the prisoners in those jails weren’t incarcerated for no reason. And by the way, the majority of the Iraqi people don’t even understand what all the fuss is about! To them, this was nothing compared to what occurred in those prisons on a daily basis under Saddam’s rule. People would do well to keep things in proper perspective, instead of reacting with such irrational emotion. Despite attempts to smear our military, this is not mandated behavior, and I’ll not engage in such erroneous condemnation of them. Sure wish there was as much outrage over the videos the Iraqi fighters made of our own soldiers that they killed. Sure wish there would be as much (if not more of) a furor over the videotaped beheading of Nick Berg, etc., etc. . . . These are the people we’re dealing with . . . Personally, I think it's a little odd that influential Muslim leaders/clerics haven't "apologized" or issued statements of strong condemnation or railing against such actions by Islamic terrorists . . . When four of our civilians were killed, burned, and dismembered in the streets of Fallugia, the only outcry that came from the Muslim leaders/clerics was about the dismemberment of the dead bodies, NOT the entire actions perpetuated by the maniacal mob of people! Hmmmmm. The above erroneous comment seems to indicate that you’ve not read the entire thread. I’m not going to rewrite everything I already addressed at great length about that on other pages. Are you aware we are in a war?? Did you know that there has never been a physical war fought where innocent people weren’t caught in the crossfire? And no, we were not waging war on the innocent civilians. It is not the intent to harm or kill innocents, and it's rather hard to fight a war with a dictator who often used the tactic of hiding behind human shields. The people we are are fighting with, however, have a very different approach to waging war – they purposefully seek to kill as many innocent people as they can! They even killed their own fellow civilians on purpose during the fighting. They killed someone for waving at our troops! They killed civilians trying to flee out of Basrah. Knowing that our soldiers didn't want to harm innocent people, they used this to their advantage and posed as civilians so they could get close to our troops then kill them. Knowing that our soldiers didn't want to harm innocent people, they would hide behind civilians and would then shoot at coalition forces, while purposefully mowing down their own people in the process. There were/are also fighters from neighboring countries who entered Iraq to fight against the coalition. Many (if not most) of the terrorist attacks that are/have been waged against our troops and Iraqi civilians are made by non-Iraqis. I know some people don't want to admit it (and they love to use any misdeed of U.S. soldiers to scream about how evil we are), but but there's a BIG difference between us and them – if people can’t see that, then it’s their problem. Yes – I’ve seen pictures of the death, destruction, AND the rebuilding, restoring of normal life for people who lived under the thumb of an evil man for 30 years. Do you acknowledge that the happenings in Iraq are not as you are falliciously attempting to portray them (all negative, all killing, all destruction, no good in anything, our military all bad, etc., etc.,)? Somehow, I doubt you are willing to note that the general situation is not as you’re attempting to portray it. Both attacks on the World Trade Center are 100% germane to the argument. When, in the process of activities essential to the protection of our existence, casualties are inflicted by the United States (the same applies to Israel), they are ancillary to the purpose, and we have generally taken every reasonable precaution to prevent them. The numerous attacks on our citizens in the past several years were for the purpose on inflicting maximum damage with the full intent to inflict death and suffering of innocent people, and the eventual destruction of our society. The former is comparable to a traffic accident caused by a fire truck on it’s way to put out a fire. The latter is like the arsonist who started the fire in the first place. inatent Inatent – you’ve hit the nail on the head. Of course these people are attempting to kill as many of us as possible. Some people perhaps don’t fully comprehend that these fanatical people are not sweet, loving, and kind individuals. Oh no – It’s so much easier to level accusation at the U.S. Yeah. That makes much more sense! Protect our existance from the weapons of mass destruction? Yep. This is your opinion, and not based in reality. On other pages, there’s info to refute the above erroneous comments, I’m not gonna get into it all over again. Getting out of this war on terror will entail not losing our backbone in the face of those elements that want to utterly destroy us. That is a JOKE, right??!!!?? Of COURSE they were looking to kill people! If this wasn't their plan, they would have struck their targets at a time when the locations were mostly empty, not at the beginning of a busy workday and in broad daylight where we could see how much death and destruction was happening right before our eyes! This was PART of the plan. They were looking to kill AS MANY innocent people as possible while at the SAME TIME, hitting world-renowned symbols of western culture, success, and strength. I think these attempts are coming as well, but nowadays the air space above these types of locations are usually restricted when there’s a big event going on. However, I'm also very afraid that we will have another big attack in our country (perhaps this year, around election time . . . . ) Perhaps the terrorists think they will get us to pull a Spain maneuver. :-\
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Post by Reader on May 11, 2004 20:30:26 GMT -5
Sure wish there was as much outrage over the videos the Iraqi fighters made of our own soldiers that they killed. Sure wish there would be as much (if not more of) a furor over the videotaped beheading of Nick Berg. These are the people we’re dealing with . . . "Killers: Beheading Avenges Prison Abuse" news.yahoo.com/fc?tmpl=fc&cid=34&in=world&cat=iraq
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Post by no name on May 11, 2004 20:46:04 GMT -5
Yeah, I know -- convenient "excuse" for them, right? These people are very savvy when it comes to their attempts to instill fear in people. Berg's murder was appropriately timed to make it look like an act of "revenge", as if they weren't already planning to do that to him in the first place! Where is the rabid ranting on the part of the whole world about these types of actions on the part of terrorist fighters? But oh NO, of course not! -- It's the U.S. that receives the brunt of such energized outrage. What. Ever.
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Post by inatent on May 11, 2004 21:12:44 GMT -5
The WTC terrorists were not looking to kill people. . . . !!!! If they had a chance they would kill every American in the world who considers himself a Christian. Their intent is to destroy us. This is an idological war whether you choose to close your eyes to it or not! inatent
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Post by readwrite on May 12, 2004 1:38:57 GMT -5
"And the above just reinforces what I already said . . . knew it!" Let's see - you are too lazy to support your point by supplying any reference so that proves your point. Is that the best of your logic? "Even soldiers from Iraq are wondering why the good news isn't being actively reported. But Geraldo Rivera once said "Reporters don't report buildings that don't burn." If you have to turn to Geraldo for support you must be way down! Next you will be quoting Jerry Springer. "I hate it when we lose any of our brave men and women. But one has to keep things in proper perspective, or their outlook will be warped. Do you know about how many U.S. soldiers we lost in ONE day during WWII?! On D-Day, we lost well over 6,000 men – that was on only one day!!" And your point is??? 50,000 were killed at Gettsburg in a single day. 70,000 in Japan in less than a second. 100,000 killed in Dresden in a day. Does the depth of the pile of bodies really impress you? "What those soldiers did infuriates me, because unfortunately it (incorrectly) reflects badly on the military as a whole." But you are ok with the fact that it has been covered up since January. Don't ask don't tell mentality. "But I also know that the prisoners in those jails weren’t incarcerated for no reason." So humilating them is ok? "And by the way, the majority of the Iraqi people don’t even understand what all the fuss is about! To them, this was nothing compared to what occurred in those prisons on a daily basis under Saddam’s rule." Since it happened under Saddam's rule it is what they are used to. I can't say I like your choice of role model. "People would do well to keep things in proper perspective, instead of reacting with such irrational emotion. Despite attempts to smear our military, this is not mandated behavior, and I’ll not engage in such erroneous condemnation of them." Right. They were under a lot of stress. No one should get upset to see humans treated like that. Keep it in proper perspective - it was US troops so it is ok. Besides - as you said - the prisoners were used to it. "The above erroneous comment seems to indicate that you’ve not read the entire thread. I’m not going to rewrite everything I already addressed at great length about that on other pages." Addressed but, as usual, not substantiated. "Are you aware we are in a war?? Did you know that there has never been a physical war fought where innocent people weren’t caught in the crossfire?" It has been in all the papers. Are you aware there are better solutions than finding out who can kill or destroy the most? "I know some people don't want to admit it (and they love to use any misdeed of U.S. soldiers to scream about how evil we are), but but there's a BIG difference between us and them – if people can’t see that, then it’s their problem." OK - you made your point. Let's nuke 'em all. "Do you acknowledge that the happenings in Iraq are not as you are falliciously attempting to portray them (all negative, all killing, all destruction, no good in anything, our military all bad, etc., etc.,)?" Someone asked you to post some good things but you declined and and somehow thought that proved your point. "Somehow, I doubt you are willing to note that the general situation is not as you’re attempting to portray it. " No, it is not. It is much worse. "Of course these people are attempting to kill as many of us as possible. Some people perhaps don’t fully comprehend that these fanatical people are not sweet, loving, and kind individuals. Oh no – It’s so much easier to level accusation at the U.S. Yeah. That makes much more sense! " These people are humans. They live in Iraq. They were of no threat to the US. Is it easier to support their slaughter if you tell yourself they are evil? That we are helping them? Do you really think we would give a damn if there was not oil there? The conditions are much worse in a lot of countries but do you see Bush leading the charge there? "Getting out of this war on terror will entail not losing our backbone in the face of those elements that want to utterly destroy us." As Bush has aknowledged, there is no tie between the terrorists and Iraq.
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Post by ha on May 12, 2004 2:46:35 GMT -5
Ghandi once said "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".
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Post by no name on May 12, 2004 10:06:33 GMT -5
The point that was proven was pretty clear. Your bias proves that you are unwilling to admit that the news in Iraq is not all as you describe (all death, all destruction, no good anywhere, no progress, etc., etc.). Not just Geraldo, but soldiers, politicians that have visited (even Democrat politicians), interviews with Iraqis, etc. I used the Geraldo quote b/c it sums up the media perfectly, just as my example in the original post explained. Do you know what keeping things in perspective means? Our military actions in Iraq have resulted in dramatically less loss of soldier life than in many previous battles. But somehow -- I'm having doubts about the reality of your concern for our troops . . . It wasn’t “covered up since January”. Did you know that the press actually did report on it back then? The difference was – no pictures, so no sensationalism. Do you not understand the reality of the situation? These are not nice people. Of course our soldiers should not have done what they did, and they need to be held accountable, most definitely. I'm just not gonna lose much sleep over the fact that some of the Iraqi prisoners had to parade around with women’s underwear on their head. It’s overblown because people are looking for any excuse to demonize the military and the U.S. as a whole. Typical. Point being – the Iraqis civilians don’t understand the overblown hype. Actually, the people in those prisons now are not the same prisoners who were incarcerated there during Saddam's grip on Iraq. Again, the events are being taken way out of proportion and context. If the prisoner mistreatment outrages you so much, then you should be reacting tenfold to the actions of the those who hacked off the head of Nick Berg. You've been strangely silent about this . . . However, I'm guessing that was the U.S.'s fault as well, because you are probably all too willing to buy the supposed “revenge for the prisoner mistreatment” hype expressed by the terrorists in the video (as if they weren't planning to do that to him in the first place). Addressed, and substantiated. Can’t help it if you refuse to believe the truth. Are you aware that you can’t negotiate with such fanatics? It was attempted with Hitler. And failed. Miserably. Ummm. . . did I say anything about dropping a nuke on anyone? You do seem to have a way with exaggerating things . . . Ahh, again my point has been proven – you are definitely not willing to acknowledge that the happenings in Iraq are not as you are falliciously attempting to portray them (all negative, all killing, all destruction, no good in anything, our military all bad, etc., etc.,). Not so. Or are you just determined to fully believe that it is ALL bad over there? If that's the case -- then nothing that disproves your misconceptions is going to have any affect on your outlook, I guess . . . If it makes you happy, keep stewing in the "negative" news. Who said they aren’t “humans”? Saddam and those in his regime most definitely were a threat to the U.S. I never said the innocent Iraqi civilians were “evil”. Where do you get that from?? Saddam and those who supported him and his tactics, on the other hand, are a different matter. Wrong again -- we’re not over there for their “oil”. Another typical accusation that was disproven in earlier pages. Helping to liberate the Iraqi people was a component of our actions there. I’m glad they are free from Saddam. The majority of the Iraqi people are glad they are free from the tyrant. Too bad you aren’t . . . . Too bad the U.S. doesn't have the force and resources to help all people under the brutality of tyrannical regimes. Uh – no he hasn’t. Iraq was most definitely a safe haven for terrorists. What has been officially acknowledged is that there’s not a direct link between Iraq and 9/11, but then, this wasn’t even an “official” charge against the country. Eloquent and wonderful-sounding quotes don’t always work in reality. I know some people would love for the U.S. to sit back and invite the terrorists to come kill us all, but I’m sorry, I don’t think that’s gonna happen anytime soon . . . . too bad, right?
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Post by ha on May 12, 2004 12:44:41 GMT -5
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Post by no name on May 12, 2004 14:54:41 GMT -5
Interesting, eloquent and wonderful-sounding quotes by the lawyer who will defend Saddam in court: Nice try, but France, Russia, China, Germany and other countries as well did such deals with Iraq. Germany sold him industrial equipment that was essential to the production of nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. These countries also engaged in under the table illegal dealings with Iraq during the sanctions after the first Gulf War. The UN is being busted for corrupt/illegal dealings with Saddam with regards to the Oil For Food fiasco. Saddam will be held accountable -- but trying to blame the other nations who did business with him for the atrocities that his regime committed against the Iraqi people simply won't fly. Yeah, wouldn't surprise me if his own people do him in . . . many of the Iraqi citizens would just love to get their hands on him . . . . while the Iraqis were glad that his brutal sons had been killed in fighting, they were also wishing they had been able to mete out some brutal revenge of their own on the two.
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Post by Bertine Louise on May 12, 2004 15:02:35 GMT -5
Dear No Name, You know I shouldn't be here, but i saw those images of both Nick Berg and the pics of Iraqi prisoners this mornin all on tv, and I just couldnt get it out of my head all day. It grieved me and i just couldnt concentrate on my schoolwork. Of course the whole world is shocked by what happened to Nick Berg, also in Iraq. I was personally on the point of crying and throwing up when i saw him being pushed to the floor about to get slaughtered. Do tell me if I'm wrong but i find you put a lot off emphasis on the hate you perceive towards the Americans. It reminds me of the whole "if youre not with us youre against us " attitude, but things arent that simple right ... Just for the record but I think it's good to keep in mind that.. Being critical does not mean one hates Americans. Being critical does not mean one loves terrorists. I think the majority of critics really don't hate Americans! And their critics shouldn't be done away with with perceived hate or lack of interest in safety. Like pointed out before the USA got tremendous support and sympathy after 9/11. French (oh yes!) newspaper Le Monde (among others) had as headline: "Nous sommes tous Américains!"We are all Americans! We still have a lot in common, and even though we do think you are a crazy bunch sometimes ;D and (strongly) disagree with your policies, we DO care for you and your fight against terrorism. And we are all fighting against terrorism, think of the several occasions recently in Italy and Turkey where terrorist have been caught. It's not like the rest of the world does nothin. Just becos we do not agree on Iraq does not mean we think you should invite terrorists over, as you put it. Many just thought Iraq wasn't a smart and enough substantiated move. I think everyones support on Afghanistan proves we won't disagree with you just for the sake of it! It wasn’t “covered up since January”. Did you know that the press actually did report on it back then? The difference was – no pictures, so no sensationalism. Did you know there are hundreds more pics,what is shown is just the tip of the iceberg. How can you be so sure? According to the Red Cross up to 90% of the prisoners have been arrested by mistake! Things aren't as cut and dried as we would like it to be. And even if they weren't nice ppl it still aint no excuse, there is still something like Geneva onventions, and Human Rights, and Common Decency, and basic Christian values of Compassion and Mercy!!! Well the whole thing does keep me awake! It's plain awful, they are treated like animals in those pics. You bet i would lose sleep over humiliations concerning forced sodomy and rape! As for the woman underwear, it's a sin for a muslim to touch it, let alone have it on his head, the head is sacred.. so it is terribly humiliating for them. And this is NOT to demonize the Americans as a people, I think most people know that this goes with the horrors of war. This is what happens when people get full power over other people, there are studies about this in psych (Stanley Milgram). It doesnt matter what nationality you are, it can happen everywhere. War can bring out the beast in anybody and that's why we should be so very, very careful about it!!! How dyou know? is there a survey or somethin? It happened becos they had untrained and too little staff and no or hardly supervision, and then there are indications that higher authorities were ok with it, even ordered it. That is a pretty serious structural problem. The US was not well prepared for this war. I don't know about the poster, I wouldnt doubt he has the heart in the right place so soon. As stated above the whole world is very much upset about Nick Berg. It is a big issue and people are outraged becos the US promised to get rid of such uncivilised behaviour, not to do it themselves. It's just a big shock when it comes from someone you don't expect it. Once again, not tryin to demonise here, just try to explain. Things seem terribly out of control, that's what is frightening. How dyou know so sure they would do it to him anyway? I heard they wanted to trade him for Iraqi prisoners but the military wouldn't wanna negociate about a contractor cos he was there at his own risk..? Again it's not one or the other. Just becos theyre happy theyre rid of Saddam doesnt mean theyre happy being ruled by Americans.
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Post by no name on May 12, 2004 15:47:52 GMT -5
Hi Bertine -- I see you have just now responded, and I am right there with in regards to the anguish and revulsion about what happened to Berg. He was there to try to do his part in helping rebuild Iraq. His murderers are the kinds of "people" we are up against in this battle . . . I have more I want to say, but I'm getting ready to run out to the store with my kids; I'll respond later tonight. Take care, girl --
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Post by inatent on May 12, 2004 19:15:17 GMT -5
. . . . I have more I want to say, but I'm getting ready to run out to the store with my kids; . . . . Kids should not be taken to the store. It'll corrupt their little minds. . . . especially the candy aisle! You did keep them out of the candy aisle, didn't you? inatent
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hinds
Junior Member
Posts: 142
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Post by hinds on May 12, 2004 19:52:08 GMT -5
I myself appreciate No Name for taking her children with her. She knows where they are.
Candy isnt the worst thing (I know you were kidding Inatent) to keep your kids away from in a store.
A sweet treat always makes my day! ;D
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Post by inatent on May 12, 2004 21:10:30 GMT -5
. . . . A sweet treat always makes my day! ;D . . . . inatent
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hinds
Junior Member
Posts: 142
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Post by hinds on May 12, 2004 21:16:57 GMT -5
Oh Inatent!
You truly made my day!!!!
Thank You Thank You!
;D ;D ;D
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Post by inatent on May 12, 2004 21:25:04 GMT -5
Oh Inatent! You truly made my day!!!! Thank You Thank You! ;D ;D ;D U R Virtually welcome! inatent
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Post by Just Here on May 13, 2004 9:06:22 GMT -5
Hi Bertine -- I see you have just now responded, and I am right there with in regards to the anguish and revulsion about what happened to Berg. He was there to try to do his part in helping rebuild Iraq. What was his part? What job was he doing? Who was he working for? I have not seen anything saying he had a job at all. I find it difficult to find people surprised or shocked. You clearly have never been on a battlefield. Berg was not innocent nor guilty. He was a citizen of a country that invaded Iraq and there is a war. He was the enemy. As so many people have pointed out, in a war innocent people get killed in the cross fire. There are photos of children blown apart by American ordnance, delivered by American citizens. Berg was caught in another kind of crossfire.They are no different than the guards who, "following orders", brutilized their prisoners. In both cases the rules (Hmmm - rules in a war zone is an odd thought) were broken. The strangest thing is that people are shocked by this. Put people in charge of prisoners with minimal supervision and this will happen almost every time. Studies have shown how quickly it does happen. In a well known study by Zimbardo with college students, only 6 days into the study the "guards" put bags on the "inmate's" heads, stripped them, and had them simulate sex acts. Sound familiar? Who really thinks that the photohraphs capture the worst of what was going on? None of this is offered as an excuse for this behavior. But remember that we did invade their country under false pretenses, bombed them for a while, invaded with troops, and killed a lot of the population while we were "helping" them. Hundreds of trained and armed soldiers are being killed so why would an unarmed unescorted citizen of the invading country think this was a good thing to do? After seeing the behavior of some American citizens towards blacks in the South and gays in the midwest, would it have been any different if the US had been invaded and a citizen of the invading country was taken hostage? I would like to think we are different but then there is the image of a black man in chains being dragged behind a pickup truck. We are all humans.
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Post by no name on May 13, 2004 9:46:45 GMT -5
What was his part? What job was he doing? Who was he working for? I have not seen anything saying he had a job at all. I find it difficult to find people surprised or shocked. You clearly have never been on a battlefield. Apparently, he worked for a communications company and was helping to build/rebuild communication towers. It's not? Oh, and by the way -- a lot of the "fighters" in Iraq are not even Iraqi citizens; they are terrorists who have entered the country to fight the coalition. (And people try to say Iraq isn't part of the war on terror?) I've a question for you -- do you hope that Iraq can be stabalized? Or do you hope the terrorist monsters in the country are successful in their efforts to get the coalition to leave? I.E. -- who are you "rooting" for? Who do you hope wins the ultimate war on terror? Not true. But then, you will most likely never accept the validity of what the U.S. did. Ah, yes -- so now it's HIS fault?? What a load of tripe! And where in the world of terrorist communities (or even tyrannical regimes like Saddam's) do you see them holding their brutal members accountable for the intentional murder of innocents??!! NO WHERE. We are different. Don't even attempt to draw comparisons with me -- that is never going to hold any water with me, no matter what examples of our faults people may try to throw out.
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Post by no name on May 13, 2004 10:06:44 GMT -5
I’m sorry this has been such a bad day for you in regards to concentrating on your schoolwork. I have been on a slow boil all day about what those monsters did to Nick Berg. I remember in 1991 when the first Gulf War was going on, I was about your age, and it affected me greatly. But the whole thing was over so quickly, and Saddam was allowed to retreat unscathed. I remember thinking that we had not seen the last of that man and that it was a mistake to not take him out as well, because I knew even then that he was cunning, evil, and not someone to underestimate. Anyone who would use the tactic of hiding behind innocent human shields in battle is not someone who will go away quietly and be a good little peaceful dictator. Not too long after the first Gulf War, he attempted to have the first President Bush assassinated. Bertine – I was responding to a quote from “ha”, who during our past discussions on the board has definitely left me with the very distinct impression that he does indeed “hate” the U.S. His attempts to justify in some manner the purposeful killing of innocent people by terrorists in their battle with America (and Israel) was one of the first indications of his true sentiments. I’m aware of the difference between criticism and “hate”; I’m not sure if you realize this or not, but there is an abundance of hate that is felt and leveled at our country by many people (even from our own citizens and politicians attempting to score political points). Anyone who would attempt to put the United States as being on the same level as someone like Hitler (or any other murderous tyrant) is so filled with hatred that they cannot think clearly. Believe me, I’ve seen MANY of these Bush/Hitler comparisons at so-called “peace” marches. In England, there was a massive protest when Bush went there, and the protestors pulled down a mock statue of Bush to re-enact the statue of Saddam that was pulled down last year. Yet another ridiculous attempt to compare Bush with Saddam. It is so utterly pathetic and revolting that people try to make such a comparison that there can be no other reason for it but hatred – either felt for our President or for our country. Just by the fact that there have been some posters on this board who absolutely refuse to acknowledge any of the positive aspects of what is going on in Iraq is clear indication of a very clouded outlook towards the U.S. Since I view the war on Iraq as part of the war on terror, it does disturb me that more countries weren’t willing to help the coalition, especially if they were so “behind” us during the Afghanistan war. BTW, there were protests against us taking action in Afghanistan as well – not everyone was as behind us as you may think. Now that the clandestine activities of France, Germany, and Russia and the UN are coming out in relation to Iraq, it’s easy to see why they opposed the war, and it wasn’t because they were trying to take some kind of moral stance – it was because they wanted to protect their financial interests with Saddam. Kind of ironic that once the coalition won the immediate battle last year, France, Germany and Russia were all to eager to get in there and obtain contracts to help in the rebuilding efforts – And boy, the screaming that went on when Bush wanted to reserve those contracts for countries that participated in the coalition! Good grief. I agree with you, Bertine. And for the record, I’m not getting the impression from you that you “hate” America; I can’t say the same for some of the other posters I’ve interacted with. Also, as someone who has watched countless news commentary/opinion shows and listened to hours of talk radio, I can generally tell the difference between mere criticism that is based in true and honest concern, and the tripe that is spewed by people who very obviously do not have amicable feelings for our nation. I would agree with this as well, depending one what type of comments regarding terrorism people may make. Anyone who attempts to excuse or justify the actions of terrorists murdering innocent people by saying we were somehow responsible for what happened to us, demonstrates either hatred or a disconnect with reality b/c they simply cannot see evil for what it is (by attempting to sugarcoat something that needs to be looked at seriously). Some people simply don’t want to accept the truth of the existence of pure evil. What the terrorists do is evil. They are motivated by deep hatred and by evil in their hearts. It’s not because some of them may be poor, or because of some perceived injustice that happened to their “people” at some point in time. They enjoy killing; they thrive off of it; they think there is glory in it; they think there are some virgins waiting for them when they kill innocent people in the name of Allah. They are evil – Pure and simple. There was a member of Al-Queda who had a revelation about the evil that they were actually perpetuating. You know what finally woke this guy up? Nope – it wasn’t the fact that his group was intentionally targeting innocent people. It was the fact that he realized in the process of killing people, they were also killing fellow Muslims without apparent concern, and he could not understand the justification in that! I would agree with this as well. I also think that some criticism is simply because of a little brother complex they feel in relation to the U.S. (as you already alluded to). By done away with you mean dismissed as valid? There’s been an abundance of criticism in this country about the Iraq war -- some of it valid, some of it not. I guess it comes down to whether people view the war as related to terror or not. For those who see Iraq as part of the war with terrorists, there definitely appears to be a lack of concern when others discount the relevance of Saddam with the war on terror. And criticism has positive effects, of course; but I’m growing very, very weary of some politicians in our country who are transparently using the war on terror/war in Iraq as a political tool to be leveraged against Bush (their comments/actions which are, by the way, broadcast all over Arab media, and actually end up negatively affecting our troops who are putting their lives on the line). It is despicable behavior, imo.
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Post by no name on May 13, 2004 10:08:12 GMT -5
I remember this, and hearing it brought a lump to my throat. Then today I see a political cartoon plastered across the front of a major French newspaper that depicts Bush as a KKK member! With all due respect, I fear that many people’s memory of 9/11 has dimmed – I’m not kidding when I say this. For myself, I remember it every day, and will never, ever forget the horror this country faced. I will never forget the feeling of absolute shock, anger and sickness at what was happening. I will never forget the feeling of hopelessness and fear that swept over me as I saw those two towers collapse on live TV right in front of my eyes. I will never forget the extremely close up videos I saw of people hurling themselves out of the WTC towers. This was not video that a lot of people saw; it was taped by a Hispanic TV reporter/camera operator and broadcast on Univision. These images were SO close up, that I could see their bodies dropping and flailing around like lifeless ragdolls as they took the plunge; I could see the color of their clothes and the color of their hair; one woman jumped out and she was wearing a white dress. As she fell, something she had been holding in her hand (a scarf or a small purse) came loose from her fingers, and she was falling faster than the object that had flown out of her hand. I remember crying and screaming in anguish as I watched those videos; I remember seeing the hysteria on the ground as people watched the bodies fall from the buildings. I remember hearing about the plane that went down in Pennsylvania, and eventually realizing that the passengers must have taken some action against the murderers on that plane. I remember fearing for Bush’s safety when the news media kept broadcasting what his next move was supposed to be. I was afraid there were plans to shoot his plane out of the sky and kept yelling at the TV reporters to STOP announcing where Bush was going.. I remember the desperation of people overseas who wanted to get back home and couldn’t. I remember a tourist who was in England at the time and wasn’t able to return home; she was photographed embracing an American flag as she sobbed her grief at what was happening in her country. I remember the outpouring of grief and support from countries all across the world; Putin was the first foreign leader to phone Bush and express his condolences to our country. I remember all that, and it brought tears to my eyes in gratitude that the world understood the horror that happened. I ALSO remember hearing Saddam expressing his glee that the 9/11 attacks had happened, and I remember seeing videos of “Palestinians” dancing and celebrating in the streets at the knowledge of what had happened. And I knew that this was only the beginning of a long overdue but very needed systematic response against people who absolutely despised us to the point that they cared about nothing else, even the lives of their own children, their own people. I was optomistic that the world would stay united behind America and that the horrors of terrorism would be confronted by a unified world. In all truthfulness, Bertine I am getting the disappointing impression that many people (even in this country) are actually beginning to forget or are suffering from dimmed memories with regard to what happened to us on 9/11 (you may not be one of these people). And it wasn't just Americans who suffered, but many foreigners were murdered that horrific day. Yes, America is quite unique, I must admit; I know she's not perfect, but I love her dearly. Yes, I know there has been a great deal of cooperation among various countries and involving INTERPOL. I hope this continues and that more innocent lives are spared as terrorist plots are foiled. Did you hear about the terrorists that were stopped in Jordan who were planning to launch a bio/chemical attack that may have killed tens of thousands of people? However, another aspect of this war is not just in foiling terrorist plots but ALSO going after nations that sponsor such plotting and harbor terrorists. The war goes beyond just attempting to completely dismantle terrorist groups but also putting a stop to the help given to them by various countries. This is where some nations in the world begin to balk. They aren’t willing for such definitive action.
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