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Post by k on Apr 20, 2004 16:52:57 GMT -5
Palestinians are Ishmael's children. God still favours his people Israel! They are still enjoying the promises God made to Abraham and Jacob. Every time the Arabs try to attack Israel, they lose! Witness the 6 day war in 1967 when Israel kicked Arab butt! 6 days and Israel defeated a host of Arab enemies. Israel is our friend and ally.
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Post by ha on Apr 24, 2004 11:22:56 GMT -5
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Post by ha on Apr 25, 2004 5:32:25 GMT -5
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Post by no name on Apr 25, 2004 18:19:08 GMT -5
I thought we've known for years that Israel had nukes. I don't blame them, anyway -- that may be one of the weapons they have that keeps them alive against the groups who want to drive their country into the sea.
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Post by ha on Apr 27, 2004 14:22:05 GMT -5
In the same way I think it is a good think that Muslim nations (Pakistan, Iran, ...) have developed or try to develop nuclear weapons. Why blame them ? You know «no name», applying the «an eye for an eye» principle will let everybody blind at the end ... This is why I do not consider that Israel should be considered a «friend and ally» - rather the greatest threat to peace on the whole planet !!!
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Post by no name on Apr 27, 2004 14:56:34 GMT -5
In the same way I think it is a good think that Muslim nations (Pakistan, Iran, ...) have developed or try to develop nuclear weapons. Why blame them ? You know «no name», applying the «an eye for an eye» principle will let everybody blind at the end ... This is why I do not consider that Israel should be considered a «friend and ally» - rather the greatest threat to peace on the whole planet !!! I don't have any problems with responsible nations having nukes; it's the leadership of some groups/nations that advocate/support the purposeful killing of innocents (suicide bombers/terrorists) that make me nervous about owning nukes. And I don't view Israel as being the "greatest threat to peace on the whole planet".
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Post by ha on Apr 28, 2004 5:55:45 GMT -5
In this case the US should abolish its nuclear weapons immediately. At least with Bush as a president !!! 59% of Europeans think otherwise ... see europa.eu.int/comm/public_opinion/flash/fl151_iraq_full_report.pdf, page 82 Finally, many people - including Jews - do not think that the State of Israel, is a responsible nation. Quite the contrary. Have a look at or
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Post by ha on Apr 28, 2004 8:21:32 GMT -5
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Post by no name on Apr 28, 2004 10:03:37 GMT -5
In this case the US should abolish its nuclear weapons immediately. At least with Bush as a president !!! Well, at least we know where you stand! Ho hum That's nice -- so?? Many people think many things -- this doesn't mean I agree with them . . . For the links you provide, there are others that would refute your opinion. I don't think I've yet heard of Israel sending suicide bombers into crowded areas to kill as many innocent people as possible. Nope. Whatever point any group is trying to make is completely lost when they purposefully target innocents.
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Post by ha on Apr 28, 2004 10:20:19 GMT -5
This is exactly what zionists are doing to palestinians. And what the US army is doing to many, many others all over the world. However most Americans being ignoramuses they believe what their unhonest leaders tell them - and fully believe in it. I do not have a problem no name - you can believe whatever you want about Israelis and the GIs. This does not make them less criminals ...
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Post by no name on Apr 28, 2004 11:39:29 GMT -5
This is exactly what zionists are doing to palestinians. And what the US army is doing to many, many others all over the world. Again, I don't recall where Israel (or the U.S.) has sent out people with bombs strapped on them into the midst of crowds of innocent people with the sole and intentional purpose of killing as many innocents as possible. Despite the way many biased people want to label it, this is not what Israel (and the U.S.) has been doing. "zionists" -- the last time I heard this word used, it was coming out of the mouth of a Neo-Nazi on "COPS". Uh huh . . . That's nice to hear . . . .
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Post by ha on Apr 28, 2004 15:15:01 GMT -5
Poor no name - you do not recall ... Go read this www.antiwar.com/hacohen/h-col.html to see how real evil creates such desesperation that life has no meaning any more. The last time I read it was from pious religious Jews ... www.nkusa.org/. Criminals and all those who support them are always happy to hear that others «do not have a problem». In fact from what you write on this it seems that YOU DO have a problem. Go see the film «Betrayed» budy by Gavras - hope you understand something ...
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Post by no name on Apr 28, 2004 16:48:17 GMT -5
. . . . creates such desesperation that life has no meaning any more. Sorry. I don't buy into the argument that "such desperation" therefore translates it into being okay to purposefully kill as many innocent people as possible. There's no amount of described desperation that will ever convince me that it's okay for them to then target innocent people. Such described "desperation" also isn't really the main reason they do what they do -- it's pure hatred they have for the Jews. "Palestinian kids raised for war"www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17707"Palestinian Schools: Breeding Grounds for Hate"www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=1314"PA Hammers Hate Into Children"www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/antiholo/pa_hate.htmlUh huh. From what I recall, it was you who stated that you didn't have a problem, which I'm wondering about now Go watch more video footage of people desperately trying to resuscitate innocent dead babies, men, and women in the streets -- purposefully targeted because they are innocent people. Hope you understand something.
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Post by ha on Apr 29, 2004 3:37:15 GMT -5
I wonder if the children of the Amalekites and other Palestinians of the OT were less innocent that modern day Israelite children. I wonder if the Palestinians who saw the Jews getting their land in the 30's the 40's and the 50's and who have seen the UN resolutions not implemented were less innocent than the modern Israelite children. And the Iraqi children, and the Vietnamese children and the Somali children, and the Afgani children ...
At a certain point in time injustice is so great that one has no choice but to say «let my soul die with the ennemies» ...
Hey no name - if you are familiar with the books of Hannah Arendt you will understand.
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Post by no name on Apr 29, 2004 8:52:39 GMT -5
At a certain point in time injustice is so great that one has no choice but to say «let my soul die with the ennemies» ... Sorry -- I don't buy that at all; never will. Again, no amount of attempted convincing will ever change my mind that it's therefore OKAY to include killing innocent people on purpose because there's been some past "injustice" (real or only perceived). It sounds like you think it's excusable that the suicide bombers do what they do -- I don't, and will never change my viewpoint on that.
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Post by ha on Apr 29, 2004 9:07:32 GMT -5
I fully understood that you are not going to change your mind on that. It is your problem - not mine.
What about Hanah Arendt - ever heard of her? Of her ideas about the banality of evil?
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Post by no name on Apr 29, 2004 22:12:27 GMT -5
I fully understood that you are not going to change your mind on that. It is your problem - not mine. I fully understand that you seem to think the completely intentional murder of innocent people via suicide/terrorist bombings is acceptable. It is your problem - not mine. Nope. Never heard of her. Doesn't matter -- her ideas wouldn't change my mind either.
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Post by ha on Apr 30, 2004 2:36:30 GMT -5
Poor no name. You seem so isolated from what is happening in the rest of the world. And you believe in all the myths the media and the government has created for you. The fact that you have an internet connection does not mean you are not a typical ignorant american with no real culture - exept agriculture. Try getting some eductation before you cast your vote for or against Israel, for or against Bush ar whatever else. And by all means do not castrate your children by isolating them from the rest of the world - THIS is a real crime they will never forgive you when and if they ever find out ...
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Post by no name on Apr 30, 2004 8:59:30 GMT -5
Awwww thanks SO much for your concern . . . You make many bold statements against me -- simply b/c you don't like it that I believe (rightly so) that the actions of suicide bombers/terrorists are inexcusable and also b/c I am an American. Other than that, you don't know the first thing about me and my family personally, so your wild judgements and psychotic personal accusations are only casting aspersions on yourself.
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Post by ha on Apr 30, 2004 11:48:06 GMT -5
I know what you wrote about. And that you chose to be called no name. This already means a lot ...
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Post by no name on Apr 30, 2004 12:26:05 GMT -5
I know what you wrote about. Which was no basis for your extreme conclusions and maniacal accusations. I don't follow the "logic" that it's "evil" to reject the methods of suicide/terrorist bombers in their intentional murder of innocent people. Makes no sense. Never will. For a reason other than what you automatically (and erroneously) assume. This is an old and bogus charge thrown out by people who haven't read my post history b/c they can't think of any other way to make their argument -- besides throwing out personal insults . . . . Nothing new there. To whom? You? Makes a difference.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2004 20:38:50 GMT -5
For what it is worth, No Name freely chose to identify herself to me. I'd like to think it was from mutual trust and respect. I believe that even though I am an ex, believing differently about many things than she, that we are one in Christ if not in denominational affilliation.
Nonetheless, I respect her and her right to her opinions, even as I respect some who disagree with her and have their opinions. It is difficult for me to respect any post (not necessarily poster, for everyone's "halo" slips from time to time) which falls back upon biting sarcasm, ad hominem attacks, or other fallicies of logic as if they are reasonable context for public posts.
When the time came that as an American, I had to register for the draft, I had no assistance in anyway from anyone in doing so. I had to think to respond to the questions, where some relied upon stock answers supplied by others.
In the essay portion of why I personally would not be bearing arms, I explained that I believed it was a very personal individual matter about which each had to answer for themselves what was "right" or "wrong." I tried to make it clear that my own beliefs were not to be strewed as binding upon anyone other than myself.
My explanation was that I simply could not be relied upon to kill and destroy upon command, but that I would serve in any capacity that did not requrie those two conditions. As a result, I wound up a highly trained medic, equipment operator, comms proficient, with "Military Intel" training also recorded on my dd-214, resulting in duties about which I was both forbidden and even took an oath not to relate for at least 30 years. That time has passed now.
My point? All Americans are not the same just as all members of every denomination or political party do not believe the same. In the land of the free because of the brave, many have served to preserve and protect that freedom to believe even as radically oposed as "ha" is from others of us.
Freedom means others are not forced in our country to believe as everyone else, nor even as the political structure in power in power at any given time. Unfortunately the violence used by certain religious persuasions has now come to this country.
Presidents take oaths of office, even as other members of our political structure. They must carry out their duties as they perceive best. If the population does not approve, the majority can change things, using the right means, as they may do in the next general election this fall..
This does not mean that a few states with the largest populations can force their will upon all others. We hear much about President Bush being a minority president. What those claims do not also relate is that on a basis of people and territory, Bush was a HUGE majority winner. Not by just a little, but by a HUGE proportion.
America is not a Democracy, not at all, despite having one form of a democratic government, known truly as a Republic. We simply do not hold to a one person one vote rule as demanded by a literal Democracy. This is so that those in power in large cities can not join forces to compell as they will those living in more rural areas.
Kennedy won with a much smaller minority of votes than did Bush, and launched us into Viet Nam, and nearly to world war on three continents. Yet he was not vilified by the press nor public, at home nor abroad nearly as much as Bush.
So it goes in the land of the free because of the brave. "Ha," I certainly don't agree with your posts nor your assessment of reality as I perceive it to be. However, freedom allows for such minority opinions---in as far as they do not become violent, whereupon some of the brave will respond with overpowering violence when ordered to do so by their government.
Nowadays, this is the oath taken by those who do join the military, as none are compelled into service at the present. Perhaps compulsary duty will be part of American reality again someday. Personally I believe, with provisions that have been in force for a half century for those opposed by conscience for either military service or bearing of arms (they are not one and the same thing) worse things could happen than every citizen being required to perform some form of public service for a couple of years in their younger years.
Many who fled the country in the past were not opposed to war, rather just a particular war. When Kenedy launched the US into Vietnam, the intentions as advisors were honorable. The sad part is, that as almost happened in the Congo, America entered on the wrong side, failing to comprehend that many of the Vietnamese were fighting for independance, not communism.
America simply forgot her own roots. Can it happen again? Of course, but in this instance, war was declared upon the USA first, something many do not want to acknowledge.
Sincerely,
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Post by inatent on May 1, 2004 8:51:59 GMT -5
Dennis,
I have not read the rest of this thread, but your analysis is the most balanced and sensible viewpoint on this subject that I have heard anywhere.
One question: Do you think what we are now fighting is World War III?
inatent
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Post by no name on May 1, 2004 10:57:02 GMT -5
Dennis, I have not read the rest of this thread, but your analysis is the most balanced and sensible viewpoint on this subject that I have heard anywhere. Inatent -- Dennis has the ability to get his points across in a non-inflammatory manner -- very admirable.
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Post by Deleted on May 1, 2004 12:01:39 GMT -5
Regarding, One question: Do you think what we are now fighting is World War III? End It would be sad if that proves to be true. To answer your question specifically, there certainly does seem to be such indications to me. My past experience in uniform (13 years all told, from an initial rank of "Buck Private" in the US Army to the close equivalent of "Major" in the USCG(Aux) has resulted in a degree of interest in JAG and NCSI.
Last night on JAG, I thought there was a particularily relevant topic. It was of a Marine General who unwisely addressed audiences regarding his own personal opinions and beliefs while in uniform; being held accountable for doing so. Though found not guilty at his court martial for deriliction of duty and conduct unbecoming an officer, he was ordered sensitivity training, perhaps a good thing for everyone.
In the end, it was proven by many quotes from those speaking for the present opposing side that they believe they are engaged in a Holy War, and that the USA, as one of their "enemies," becomes the great Satan.
The acts/deeds of some against whom they fight might well bear this out. The recent prisoner abuse by members of the American and British forces is just one such example. If it were left up to me, I would hand over all peoples as caught in such corruption to the Iraqi people to try before their courts, without any form of foreign intervention. But, it's not left up to me.
War is violent. War kills, injures and harms in many ways people not involved in armed combat, and particularily innocent children. We hear about innocent civilians, yet the truly innocent are the children.
___________________________________
No Name, your post about me was very kind, though very likely undeserved. As I read others posts, I recognize how often they could have been something I once would have posted, myself. This makes it very easy for me to empathize with the views of their present posters.
That God has dealt much more mercifully with me than either mankind or than I deserve, has indeed had its effect upon me. As a result, like John the Baptist, I want Him to increase that I decrease, allowing His Holy Spirit to produce everlasting qualities. Any success in this pales in the light of many failures resulting from not putting to death one or more works of the flesh.
Kindest regards to and for you both,
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Post by ha on May 1, 2004 14:54:19 GMT -5
Dennis, you said a lot but nothing on the question at hand : Should we support Israel or not? Should we support Bush's war in Afganistan and Iraq or not?
Nice quote «the land of the free because of the brave» but what happens when the brave serve the evil ones.
Nice quote «America is not a democracy» but what happens when this «non-democracy» tries to «export democracy» all over the planet.
Finally you mention that Bush was a HUGE majority winner. Michael Moore and many other Americans thing otherwise - that Bush became president because of his father's friends at the Supreme Court.
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Post by no name on May 1, 2004 15:13:09 GMT -5
Nice quote «the land of the free because of the brave» but what happens when the brave serve the evil ones. Good grief -- No exporting of "democracy"; helping people to gain liberty. Big difference. Michael Moore is the last person I would turn to for opinion; he (and others) seem to understand little about our electoral process. I hope Dennis responds, but he may not feel it's worth his time or energy -- especially when he would be attempting to converse with someone who compares Bush/America to "evil" and who views someone like Michael Moore as a legitimate source of info . . . .
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Post by ha on May 1, 2004 15:28:16 GMT -5
Like the Iraquis ... especially the ones that were tortured. ( edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/04/30/iraq.photos/index.html). I suppose in the same way that «arbeit macht frei». Good grief I followed the news about Bush's election - especially the fraud in Florida. Bush was proclaimed President by the High court judges - some of who were nominated by his father. I think that it is you rather who do not understand the American process, as many other things, and as many other Americans. He however took his time to explain all his life in the US army and the Kennedy era and so many unrelated things. Just his position concerning Israel whoud be sufficient for me ...
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