|
Post by wingsofaneagle on Oct 17, 2007 23:15:27 GMT -5
We take faith that leaving all to God means just that - allowing God to rule, guide, direct and bless.
And this is your excuse for not taking care of the poor and the needy in your community as well right? No responsibility because God takes care of them, right? So again, seeing God takes care of all these poor souls, why would you need workers to save them? Surely God can throw that into the package while he's finding food and clothing for them?
WOw...... talk about having an OUT! Takes all responsibility off you when you dont have to think about those on the "outside" except for the fate of their souls and figuring out just how to get them to a mission.
Jesus walked and worked amongst the down and outs. He healed and he served. The workers do not.
|
|
|
Post by wingsofaneagle on Oct 17, 2007 23:17:09 GMT -5
Sorry im all fired up tonight. No particular reason. Must be the weather! ;D
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2007 4:03:59 GMT -5
"Wings" you are right to point these things out. They are deep concerns of mine as well.
Due to the way the Workers operate (or rather - don't !), I now believe they are reaping what they are sowing in regards to these issues.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2007 6:59:27 GMT -5
Two questions please... Recall Jesus telling Peter to feed His flock, and feed his sheep. If Peter's only role was to bring people into the flock, why bother feeding them? And why did Paul speak of having all the cares of the all church upon him? If his role was to bring people into the church, why bother caring for them?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2007 7:08:59 GMT -5
Have mercy on the workers ram and wings. They themselves are victims of a system.
They were brought up being regaled with stories of people who were desparately looking for Gods true way, and along came the workers. So today, workers believe that God will bring people to them.
They were brought up under the wall of separation doctrine and sanctification by separation from the world. So they espouse that to the friends and practice it themselves. With little contact with the world, few get invited and even fewer experience any kind of charitable effort from them.
The movement which began a century ago has stalled, and for many good reasons. The itinerant style employed a century ago was used to get out into the world and seek the lost and preach Christ to them, and it worked. The itinerant style today is used solely to justify their rightness, and it's not working.
A century ago the workers largely pointed to Christ and found true believers whose lives were changed. Today, the workers largely point to the ministry and a nice little fellowship system and they find people who want to fit into a social system and are comfortable there.
There's much more but the point is that many workers and friends don't see themselves as they are, nor how they have become over the last century. I am more inclined to see them as victims of a system rather than perpetrators of evil.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2007 7:15:44 GMT -5
Why single out Peter and Paul? Are not all believers to care for one another? "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. " "And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another. " Two questions please... Recall Jesus telling Peter to feed His flock, and feed his sheep. If Peter's only role was to bring people into the flock, why bother feeding them? And why did Paul speak of having all the cares of the all church upon him? If his role was to bring people into the church, why bother caring for them?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2007 7:27:00 GMT -5
Yes, that's true. But Paul's care for the church was a little different to that of the fellowship. Paul had authority from God to adjudicate doctrine, understanding in scripture, preaching the word, personifying God's authority and guarding the flock against apostasy come to mind.
What do your own ministers do?
|
|
|
Post by gloryintruth on Oct 18, 2007 7:28:58 GMT -5
I remember thinking while I was still going to meetings that there could be no other church out there that could be right before God. I kept telling myself that because if I didn't then I would have to admit that God could actually be speaking to these "outsiders" and working in their lives!
You see, these sorts of statements lead me to conclude that your focus was simply on the wrong things when you were professing. If condemning other churches figured so highly in your worldview, then I would suggest something was significant out-of-order, which is precisely the same standard I would apply to any of the Friends whose entire perspective of Christianity was a negation of an external force or entity.
I can assure you that I do not tell myself repeatedly that other churches are corrupt; that aspect of belief simply does not register in my world of interest. I am far more interested in trying to improve on my inward condition and to build good works into my life through the power of grace.
I avoided going to other churches because I didn't want to know. I fed on what I heard from others about these other churches, as well as my distaste for the Catholic masses I had been in over the years while living in Ireland (went to Catholic school).
I went to a Roman Catholic school as well. And I have long come to believe that avoiding realities to preserve a worldview has a detrimental effect on a person's psyche. Such behaviour amounts to a secret agreement with oneself to ignore or deny the truth - and I'm in no way condeming you, because I have done exactly the same and still do so. I am always seaching inwardly for those nuggests of untruth and dealing with them.
It wasn't until I left that false sense of security did I find out that there are many little churches out there that can feed our souls. In the church I am in now, it is just awesome to see how our pastors administer to their "flock" outside of sunday services. It's awesome to see real love in action!!!!
These sorts of comments always amaze me. They blow me away because they are so routine, so accepted and exes seem totally without perspicacity to their own words. There are many exes - and I would number them close to the hundreds - who, when describing their churches on this forum, brim with admiration and praise for their pastors or priests.
When the Friends do it, it's called "Worker Worship"; when exes do it, it's called "awesome love in action". This is why I think the general exe criticisms of the Church are philosophically incoherent and inconsistent - the internal logical structure of the criticisms leads the critiquer to condemn the very things they espouse.
Whenever comparisons are made to demonstrate this, exes respond with poison. Today I re-read the commentary that appeared (5 pages of it!) when I mentioned Paula White and the scandal dogging her heels and I was struck again by the sheer hostility and unwillingness to confront the issue. Evasion and obfuscation were the general tactics.
As someone wisely pointed out to me recently in a Private Message - it is the difference between an evidence-based, objective perspective, and a subjective-emotional perspective.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2007 7:31:09 GMT -5
Well said Clearday. By the way I post sometimes, I know I come across as "anti-worker" but it is really the system that I am railing against. At other times though, I often preach against the system and recognise that most friends and workers are in fact victims of the system. I am not personally against any Friends or workers. However, the system cannot change itself and workers and friends have to be shaken awake to the realities of the system that controls them and make the necessary changes.
100-150 years ago was a time of spiritual revival in the British Isles and beyond. This way was a product of that spiritual revival, or at least an offshoot of a way (the Faith Mission) which was born out of it. In the times leading up till then the traditional churches had lost much of their spiritual vision and there was a genuine craving for more Christ centred service.
When I say the Workers are reaping what they sow, I am merely trying to draw attention to the fact the lack of genuine interest for the unsaved community has resulted in an almost lack of interest in return. Workers look for reasons "outside" their own community to blame for the lack of interest and whilst there is some merit in these, the main reason is much nearer home.
Yes, I well understand the Workers are under the control of a system, a man-made one at that and are indeed victims as much as, if not more than many of the lay members.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2007 7:35:15 GMT -5
My ministers typically drive out the weak and struggling souls and promote the hypocrites to places of honour, using their "authority from God." Do yours do the same? God forgive them for they know not what they do. Yes, that's true. But Paul's care for the church was a little different to that of the fellowship. Paul had authority from God to adjudicate doctrine, understanding in scripture, preaching the word, personifying God's authority and guarding the flock against apostasy come to mind. What do your own ministers do?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2007 7:38:47 GMT -5
No, they don't actually. You should come to our missions and see people who give up their whole lives for the Gospel.
|
|
|
Post by gloryintruth on Oct 18, 2007 7:53:47 GMT -5
however the methodology of the presentation needs to - in order to connect with non-believers.
Interesting then that the presentation method did not change for 1,400 years between the preaching of Moses and the preaching of Jesus. And this was in the context of pagan worship - which, given the historical data, was a heck of lot more exciting than the worship of Yahweh. Sex, dancing, wine, esoteric rituals and mysterious and complex rites were all common features of Cannanite and Greek worship. (At Corinth, there was at one time a temple housing more than 1,000 sacred prostitutes).
Yet the presentation of the message of Yahweh never changed. Why? Because it did not depend on human agency. It had (and has) an internal power to draw the elect in its pure form, without all the fireworks.
Yesterday, approximately 500 volunteers from the church I attend flooded the seedy part of our downtown area.
This was nice to hear. Do not misunderstand the comments to follow - I think it is wonderful that you are involved in such community efforts. But let me ask you: what does your church do for the homeless for the other 364 days of the year?
When the Apostle Peter passed the lame man, he did not stop and give him alms. "I don't have any silver or gold to give you", said the Apostle. In other words, "I can't give you the stuff of this this world to aid your present situation" - to do so would leave the man's soul unchanged. What did the Apostle say? "Such as I have, I give to you". In other words, he gave something times more valuable - the Gospel that saves.
It seems your church had a street clean-out; handed out some food and drinks; and threw a party for the benefit of the down-and-out. And don't get me wrong! I have nothing against any of this. However, did your church follow the example of the Apostle Peter and share the Gospel with these people - the Gospel being the precious words, whose substance is far more precious than silver or gold? The Gospel which could raise them up and lead them to a newness of life?
Most days there is a feeling of helplessness, loss & danger on those streets. Yesterday, for a few hours, a spirit of love, service and hope prevailed.
Few a few hours, yes. Maybe. But for the remainder of the year those people languish in their sorry state. Does your church offer them jobs, or bring those people into their homes? How far do you go in your community service?
You see, the exes often attack the Friends for their supposed lack of corporate charity without realising that the Friends often do charitable works that no one will ever tell you about. My parents, for example, took into their home and care a retarded, handicapped, autistic girl who was a victim of fetal-alcohol-syndrom. The effort they expended for that child was huge. My parents have cared for retarded men; for the downtrodden and for the outcast; our table has been "furnished with guests" who could in no way reciprocate the feast my mother - at this time deep in nervous anxiety, who could hardly carry the burderns of motherhood - would lay before them.
I was brought up in an atmosphere that sought to do every week; every month exactly what your church has done once a year. We brought people into the home for fellowship, comfort, support and food. And who knows how many of the Friends do other charitable works? I know an elderly lady in the Fellowship who does an enormous amount of work with the elderly in the community, but who never speaks of it.
My point is: be careful of condemning and rubbishing the Friends for their supposed "lack of charity". You have no idea what many of them do for other people.
In my mind, we were the hands of Jesus yesterday. I view this type of service as an outward show of fruits of the Spirit. In a way, this is what I consider "modernizing a church". We were stepping outside the walls of the church, and taking the love of God to the most needy.
Now you need to take it a step further and bring those people into your homes!
|
|
|
Post by gloryintruth on Oct 18, 2007 7:58:03 GMT -5
My ministers typically drive out the weak and struggling souls and promote the hypocrites to places of honour, using their "authority from God."
It's good you can recognise these abuses in your church, and that it is seeping with hypocrisy - but are you going to just stay in the pews?
Do yours do the same?
No. Our ministers invite all to come and they give all visitors only the Words of God. We are pretty traditional in our Church. We kinda think God's Words and Spirit can't be improved on when given freely as a gift.
Not even with Halo 3 and Playstation.
|
|
|
Post by gloryintruth on Oct 18, 2007 8:04:59 GMT -5
The Church by the third century AD was so completely leavened that it demanded that its laity "worship the Bishop" that it became anti-Christ. This was because the "priesthood" believed that they were vicar (in place of Christ) and spoke for Him even tho' much of what they believed was in complete rebellion to His Word. Yes, there was a laity, which should have never become part of the Church!!!I'm not going to address this, except to say that the level of misunderstanding of Church History here is immense. A number of points. - In the third century, the church was illegal throughout the Roman Empire.
- There was no Christian priesthood in the third century, but rather an arrangement of Bishops and Presbyters. The priesthood developed slowly as an institution, coming to culmination toward the end of the first millenia.
- The Vicar of Christ is a title given to one individual in the Roman Church - the Pope, or the "pontifex maximus" (high priest). It is not a title that is, or ever has, been assumed by the priesthood.
Moreover, I take grave exception to your statement that these Christians worshipped "the Bishop" or that the Roman Catholic Church has ever demanded such worship from its adherents. Such statements present a terrible distortion and misrepresentation of other people's faith and beliefs. Roman Catholics are very much committed to worshipping God and Christ. I might argue their doctrine and practices are totally wrong and their church structure unbiblical, but I don't deny the sincerity of their beliefs. Obviously you are totally incapable of representing the beliefs of any group with which you disagree in a fair and impartial way. Even on a purely factual and historical basis, your statement is deficient in many, many ways. My advice: if you don't know - on the basis of fact, proof, research, and evidence - what you're talking about, then don't talk about it.
|
|
|
Post by gloryintruth on Oct 18, 2007 8:16:54 GMT -5
Yes I can guide them but im MOM! MOM to a teenager is usually someone who just 'doesnt understand'. Anyway, however the pastor does it, they listen to him and they love him for it.
As teachers, we grow increasingly frustrated with this approach to parenting.
In other words, you have handed responsibility for your children's moral and doctrinal development over to the pastor, just as so many parents hand over responsibility for these things to teachers. We live in a society where very soon, all parents are required to do is have the darn things - kids - and let everyone else rear them.
God is adamant on this issue. It is YOUR responsibility as a mother to teach, guide and lead your kids. It is NOT the pastor's responsibility.
Since my boys started going to this youth group they have brought several friends, 3 of whom have given their lives to God because of their experience there!!!!
Like the Hitler Youth Group? Or the Red Scouts Youth Group? Funny how the church of the Apostles never had youth groups. It's amazing the gospel managed to survive for 2,000 years, especially when you have to rely on the Holy Spirit.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2007 8:18:13 GMT -5
I understand that our ministers are just like yours. They practice sound flock husbandry. When one of the flock is considered troubled or diseased, they are placed into quarantine(shunned) so that they cannot trouble the rest of the flock. If the disease persists during the quarantine period, the member is shot (excommunicated). The only departure from sound animal husbandry with our ministers is that they don't seek the sheep who has strayed. Our sheep are special, they know how to find their way back to the one true flock. Am I going to stay in the pews in the midst of this? You bet, there's plenty of good things to do, like picking up the pieces of shattered souls and giving it back to them. My ministers typically drive out the weak and struggling souls and promote the hypocrites to places of honour, using their "authority from God." It's good you can recognise these abuses in your church, and that it is seeping with hypocrisy - but are you going to just stay in the pews? Do yours do the same?No. Our ministers invite all to come and they give all visitors only the Words of God. We are pretty traditional in our Church. We kinda think God's Words and Spirit can't be improved on when given freely as a gift. Not even with Halo 3 and Playstation.
|
|
|
Post by gloryintruth on Oct 18, 2007 8:18:35 GMT -5
Jesus walked and worked amongst the down and outs. He healed and he served. The workers do not.
You have no idea what the Workers do or do not do for the down and outs. What does your church do? Do your pastors walk among them - do you?
|
|
|
Post by gloryintruth on Oct 18, 2007 8:21:03 GMT -5
If the disease persists during the quarantine period, the member is shot (excommunicated).
I guess this confirms the examples of the Apostles Paul and John who both excommunicated folks who did not conform to the standards of the Lord.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2007 8:26:10 GMT -5
GIT,
I'm sorry, but it is YOU that does not know what Workers do for DOWN and OUTS.
Even towards their own kind they show little if any empathy. I know this first hand. When I was DOWN, the way I was treated eventually led to me being OUT !
Often they create their own Down and Outs. Of course I am conscious that they are under the psychological control of a "system" and like those they show little empathy towards, are merely victims themselves.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2007 8:34:56 GMT -5
Exactly, copy Paul's mistake that he regretted later and feel justified by doing it to others. Plus, ignore the reason that John recommended excommunication and then excommunicate indiscriminately..... and with alacrity. Justify and rationalize our actions, it makes us feel much better and releases us from trying to help anyone. If the disease persists during the quarantine period, the member is shot (excommunicated).I guess this confirms the examples of the Apostles Paul and John who both excommunicated folks who did not conform to the standards of the Lord.
|
|
timber
Senior Member
Posts: 249
|
Post by timber on Oct 18, 2007 12:25:10 GMT -5
Ram wrote: When I say the Workers are reaping what they sow, I am merely trying to draw attention to the fact the lack of genuine interest for the unsaved community has resulted in an almost lack of interest in return. Workers look for reasons "outside" their own community to blame for the lack of interest and whilst there is some merit in these, the main reason is much nearer home.
Interesting point. I've never thought of it that way. I think, though, there are workers who are genuinely interested in reaching out to people in their community. Its just that the system itself dictates how that should be done. There does not seem to be enough liberty in carrying out this calling. As someone pointed out, in the early days, the ministry was truley itinerant(sp), but now has evolved into something else.
|
|
|
Post by Sylvestra on Oct 18, 2007 12:27:21 GMT -5
Speaking of "youth in the Church"......this AM I processed a donation envelop from a girl that is 10 years old. There was no $$ in it, but you know what she had volunteered for?
Prayer campaign!!!
I'll tell you, that chocked me up! Sometimes we may feel we can't "do anything", but it is certain that we can pray and be very helpful! She has learned this lesson at her tender age.
Best! Edy
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2007 14:33:22 GMT -5
timber, I personally have nothing against any Worker. However, I do see them being under the control of a "system," which dictates what they can and can't do.
It's a bit like Islam. There is no overall leader, so there is no one who can authorise change. It is God's will, we can't change it ?
Alternatively there are sinister protectionist forces at work, which is another thought.
|
|
|
Post by Brick on Oct 18, 2007 14:58:04 GMT -5
When you are too busy with a flock of sheep, and are just a "hireling," the manner described by clearday is the way you treat your flock. I had a ewe once that had just had two lambs and developed mastitis. The stronger of the two lambs was getting good milk from the good udder, but the smaller of the two just kept getting weaker and weaker until it died. I had no idea it was starving to death. Finally, I figured out the problem and the ewe and lamb were isolated from the flock for their care, and it required a lot of care, let me tell you, but they both survived and thrived. I think that is the way God handles us. We get special treatment and attention from Him to restore our strength, then we are readmitted to the competition of the flock.
|
|
|
Post by wingsofaneagle on Oct 18, 2007 15:36:37 GMT -5
Yes I can guide them but im MOM! MOM to a teenager is usually someone who just 'doesnt understand'. Anyway, however the pastor does it, they listen to him and they love him for it.As teachers, we grow increasingly frustrated with this approach to parenting.
In other words, you have handed responsibility for your children's moral and doctrinal development over to the pastor, just as so many parents hand over responsibility for these things to teachers. We live in a society where very soon, all parents are required to do is have the darn things - kids - and let everyone else rear them.
God is adamant on this issue. It is YOUR responsibility as a mother to teach, guide and lead your kids. It is NOT the pastor's responsibility.Since my boys started going to this youth group they have brought several friends, 3 of whom have given their lives to God because of their experience there!!!!Like the Hitler Youth Group? Or the Red Scouts Youth Group? Funny how the church of the Apostles never had youth groups. It's amazing the gospel managed to survive for 2,000 years, especially when you have to rely on the Holy Spirit. Well well..... parenting lessons from GIT.... priceless!
I totally believe that education starts at home and I have in NO way sloughed off my responsibility as a parent onto their teachers and/or pastors.
By the way, children are NOT "darn (damn) things"!!!!!
If you were a parent of teenagers (or any age child for that matter) you would know that there are certain things they will not talk to you about (and I have a very open relationship with each of them). As Hillary said "It takes a village" and the teachers and pastors are part of that village. My boys would much prefer to talk to their youth pastor about "girls" or other sensitive issues than to me. They don't have a relationship with their father where they feel free to express themselves.
Where in the bible is GOd adamant about my mothering skills?
Fact is we don't know how the disciples ministered to the young people. We do read of Jesus being at the temple and learning from the teachers there.
Question to ask yourself.... Is what you are doing bringing children to Christ??? If not, then you're doing something wrong.
|
|
|
Post by wingsofaneagle on Oct 18, 2007 15:48:03 GMT -5
Jesus walked and worked amongst the down and outs. He healed and he served. The workers do not. You have no idea what the Workers do or do not do for the down and outs. What does your church do? Do your pastors walk among them - do you? Now you say I have no idea what the workers do within our community? I guess the fact that I was B&R around workers and our home was a open home for the workers, and i went to meetings for more than 20 yrs.... yeah you're right. I have no idea what they do.
Its as Bert said.... everything is left for GOd to take care of, the responsibility is off you and the workers. Funny how you project that back onto me!
Yes my pastors are very active in our community as are the members of our church. There is a ministry for the poor, the sick, the homeless and everyone gets involved. What do YOUR workers do for your community (outside of those "professing")?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 18, 2007 21:49:04 GMT -5
Quite valid points.
What would you have said to those first Christians who had Paul (for instance) caring for them, preaching to them, laying down moral expectations, writing all those letters of exhortation etc?
And do you personally believe a child is saved by being tempted into a church?
There seems to be an age of apostasy upon us now. Jesus and Paul mentioned that. Jesus said the time of the Gentiles would be "finished" when the Jews had Jerusalem again - that occurred in the mid 1960's. When I was a boy people would wonder about the preachers who would travel to districts in NSW - and we had lots of interest. The lack of interest today concerns all churches, not just our own.
|
|
_
Junior Member
Posts: 71
|
Post by _ on Oct 18, 2007 21:51:15 GMT -5
CAN WE ASK THE SAME OF YOU AND YOUR CHURCH?
|
|