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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2007 7:53:26 GMT -5
Some on the TMB state that our church is failing our youth, and that if we don't modernize then we will lose our congregations. An interesting (read pathetic) article here on how some US churches are getting their youth back.
US churches lure young with Halo 3 services
By Catherine Elsworth in Los Angeles Last Updated: 1:52am BST 08/10/2007
Churches across the United States are under fire for using the ultra-violent video game Halo 3 to attract younger members to their congregations. US churches lure young with Halo 3 services Halo 3 can only be bought by over-17s and is rated 'M' for its mature content
Even some evangelical churches known for taking a hard line on violent entertainment have been hosting sessions where boys come to play Microsoft's incredibly popular futuristic "space epic" in which an alien religious group is bent on destroying the Earth, and much of the galaxy.
The game, which came out two weeks ago and has already made more than 300 million dollars in sales, can only be bought by over-17s and is rated 'M' for its mature content. It features a vast array of weaponry which players use to annihilate opponents.
Pastors and church leaders defend their use of the game saying it is an effective way of connecting with boys and young men, who are notoriously hard to reach. Once they are in the church setting, ministers can offer them Christian messages after playing the game.
"We want to make it hard for teenagers to go to hell," wrote Gregg Barbour, youth minister of Colorado Community Church near Denver, in a letter to parents. advertisement
But critics are worried about the message implicit in allowing boys as young as 12 to play a potentially corrupting adult video game.
"If you want to connect with young teenage boys and drag them into church, free alcohol and pornographic movies would do it," James Tonkowich, president of the non-profit Institute on Religion and Democracy, told the New York Times. "My own take is you can do better than that."
Daniel Heimbach, a professor of Christian ethics at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, agreed. "To justify whatever killing is involved by saying that it's just pixels involved is an illusion," he told the paper.
Hundreds of churches, however, are using the game and finding it a highly effective tool. The Colorado-based Dare 2 Share Ministry recently sent e-mail messages to 50,000 young people about how to reflect on and discuss their faith using themes from the game.
John Robison, associate pastor of one 300-member church in Albuquerque, New Mexico, told the New York Times he managed to allay parents' fears about the game. "We explain we're using it as a tool to be relatable and relevant, and most people get over it pretty quick."
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2007 9:06:17 GMT -5
We don't need to modernize, quite the opposite, we need to get back to Christ. We have failed our young people because of the waning of his influence and authority.
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Post by gloryintruth on Oct 14, 2007 17:57:31 GMT -5
Bert, I have been pointing out this kind of trend toward gimmickry for ages now. It's what I call "post-evangelicalism", or a symptom of our post-christian society in which the primary form of motivation and energy comes not from devout and sincere belief in Jesus of Nazareth, but through the world. The name of the game is numbers. They want to get more people into the church - that's the "bottom line" - and they'll use psychology, business tactics, even entertainment to achieve that end. And thus the way of preaching the gospel is totally perverted. Remember what the Apostle Paul said, " I did not come to you with wisdom of words, but preaching Jesus, and him crucified". I came telling you about the Messiah and all his wonderful works, and I told you how he died for our sins. I did NOT come to you with the worldly wisdom of Greek philosophers, and admired contemporary thinking. The abuses among Christendom today are of breathtaking magnitude. Yet, whenever it is mentioned on this forum, ex-2x2s will jump to the defence of just about any pastor or priest, minimising or explaining away the spiritual abuse. I see this as a huge problem for meaningful relationships between ex-2x2s and the Friends. Generally, the Ex-2x2s want the Friends to: - Be honest about the Church's physical origin (The Irvine Controvesy).
- Confront abuses and problems in the Church
- Acknowledge legitamate concerns
But fair is fair. In general the Friends would like similar acknowledgement from ex-2x2s. I would love to see an ex-2x2 write a post on this forum saying, " Sure, I know the Church had problems, and I left it for x reason, but I've discovered there are just as many problems - some far worse - in evangelicalism today. And when the Friends point to these abuses and problems, they are pointing to real issues that need to be addressed." Too often we get from many exes the same sorts of behaviour they condemn in us. We get equivocation, caveats, excuses, justifications and the four-fingers-pointing routine. Rarely do exes acknowledge real abuses and real issues within the forms of Christianity they have chosen to embrace. A classic example: when I posted about Paula White's divorce and her lavish lifestyle, you will not find a SINGLE exe who acknowledged that her behaviour is wrong. And evil. Here we have a test case; an opportunity for exes to acknowledge and mourn for the emptiness, superficiality and unbiblical ministry of these pastors. Here is a chance for exes to admit that pastors "out there" are creating a monster: people converted with scant regard for Christ; a substitute gospel. Teenagers drawn by Halo III, not by the Holy Father who draws men and women and gives them into the care of Jesus.
Teenagers taught about the Gospel as an adjunct, or an interlude, or as a side-dish to the entertainment offered, like a commercial for God amongst the real attraction: gaming.
Teenagers whose interest in blowing other characters to confetti, whose violent impulses are indulged, instead of channelled productively elsewhere. Whose indulgence is not condemned, but accomodated.Let me ask any exe who supports this approach the following questions: ONEWhen has a testimony ever had power when it runs: " I got saved when I heard about this really cool Halo 3 tournament down at the local church. Usually I hate church, and I knew nothing about God, but I decided if it was about computer games - the latest stuff on fast machines - then I could risk the rep. So I went and had a blast. I was stunned by the fantastic graphics and the sleek explosion effects. Anyway, afterward a pastor told us to get saved, and he made me feel really guilty about all my sins, so I took the altar call, got saved and now I feel so much better." TWOWhat is the "staying power" of people converted this way. Are they likely to endure persecution, abuses, and oppression for the faith? Where will they be in ten years time? Still at church, slavering over Halo 3 and putting up with sermons about God in the background?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2007 17:57:47 GMT -5
Methods and programs fail. They are a poor substitute for a life lived out in the open- in the world, not of it. They are a poor substitute for loving people- truly loving the person. They are a poor substitute for worship and service to God, and / or each other.
Karl
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Post by yes interesting on Oct 14, 2007 22:04:06 GMT -5
bert's and git's comments here are "interesting."
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Post by juliette on Oct 14, 2007 22:08:24 GMT -5
Bert: How do you always manage to find the most bizarre examples of church practices outside of your fellowship to use to point to how bad things are "out there". Of all the churches I have attended, I personally have only seen a sincere desire to connect people with God. You sure do a great job of finding the doozies!? Juli
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Post by juliette on Oct 14, 2007 22:16:09 GMT -5
GIT: Maybe a reason you don't see "exes" apologizing for all the ills in other churches is that we are not a homogeneous group. Yes, there are a lot of bizarre groups and people out there espousing Christianity... but that doesn't mean that I have any personal connection to them or feel the need to comment on their behavior. I make no claim that everyone who claims to be a minister of God in every Christian faith is really truly serving God. The conundrum that those who are still in the 2x2 fellowship face is the claim about your fellowship being "the only way" and the "perfect way" and the claims we've all heard since childhood about the "unity" of the way (the "way" being the 2x2 fellowship".) Juli
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Post by wingsofaneagle on Oct 14, 2007 22:19:43 GMT -5
I remember thinking while I was still going to meetings that there could be no other church out there that could be right before God. I kept telling myself that because if I didn't then I would have to admit that God could actually be speaking to these "outsiders" and working in their lives! I avoided going to other churches because I didn't want to know. I fed on what I heard from others about these other churches, as well as my distaste for the Catholic masses I had been in over the years while living in Ireland (went to Catholic school). It's so much easier to find only the bad in one or two other churches and just feed on that because that validates what we want to believe. It keeps us safe inside our coccoon.
It wasn't until I left that false sense of security did I find out that there are many little churches out there that can feed our souls. In the church I am in now, it is just awesome to see how our pastors administer to their "flock" outside of sunday services. It's awesome to see real love in action!!!!
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Post by bluejay on Oct 14, 2007 23:27:21 GMT -5
Bert - you ask "Can you modernize a church?" After I read your post I got to wondering what the church I attend is doing to attract youth. I'm going to ask the youth pastor, as I genuinely would like to know. This morning the pastor said something to the effect of "The message never changes, however the methodology of the presentation needs to - in order to connect with non-believers." He was referring to a complacent Christian ... never stepping out of their comfort zone to reach out to others. I agree with him. In many ways your own fellowship is modernizing itself. You now have many email lists & websites where you can encourage each other, and connect on a level that other f&w's can understand best. You're using modern technology to strengthen your faith. Yesterday, approximately 500 volunteers from the church I attend flooded the seedy part of our downtown area. Eight square blocks of the worst area were ministered to by men, women, teens and children. Some people swept the sidewalks & washed storefront windows. Others painted over graffiti. I saw youth walking around handing out pop to homeless people, and often they lingered & chatted for a few minutes. The ladies had gathered up bags of donated clothing and blankets, and the goods were set out on tables in the "drop in center". Hot chocolate was served as homeless/street people came in to shop for their winter coats & woolly socks. I chatted with a few people, and it helped me to remember we all have stories to tell. I wondered what had transpired to bring them to this place in their life. The afternoon ended with a barbecue & music. The difference in spirit & atmosphere in that area was palpable. In fact, two plainclothes policemen dropped by to check things out. ;D They had seen a sudden influx of 500+ people on their monitor in the police station. (They have cameras located on street corners in this area, to monitor the drug trade, etc.). As they weren't able to see clearly enough what type of crowd had swarmed the area they became concerned and came down to see. They were absolutely stunned that so many people would give up their time on a beautiful, sunny fall afternoon to serve a group of people most look down upon and avoid. Most days there is a feeling of helplessness, loss & danger on those streets. Yesterday, for a few hours, a spirit of love, service and hope prevailed. In my mind, we were the hands of Jesus yesterday. I view this type of service as an outward show of fruits of the Spirit. In a way, this is what I consider "modernizing a church". We were stepping outside the walls of the church, and taking the love of God to the most needy. It's awesome to see real love in action!!!! I agree totally with your closing sentence wings.
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Post by Johnny DeRaad on Oct 15, 2007 1:36:39 GMT -5
Bert, I have been pointing out this kind of trend toward gimmickry for ages now. It's what I call "post-evangelicalism", or a symptom of our post-christian society in which the primary form of motivation and energy comes not from devout and sincere belief in Jesus of Nazareth, but through the world. The name of the game is numbers. They want to get more people into the church - that's the "bottom line" - and they'll use psychology, business tactics, even entertainment to achieve that end. And thus the way of preaching the gospel is totally perverted. Remember what the Apostle Paul said, " I did not come to you with wisdom of words, but preaching Jesus, and him crucified". I came telling you about the Messiah and all his wonderful works, and I told you how he died for our sins. I did NOT come to you with the worldly wisdom of Greek philosophers, and admired contemporary thinking. The abuses among Christendom today are of breathtaking magnitude. Yet, whenever it is mentioned on this forum, ex-2x2s will jump to the defence of just about any pastor or priest, minimising or explaining away the spiritual abuse. I see this as a huge problem for meaningful relationships between ex-2x2s and the Friends. Generally, the Ex-2x2s want the Friends to: - Be honest about the Church's physical origin (The Irvine Controvesy).
- Confront abuses and problems in the Church
- Acknowledge legitamate concerns
But fair is fair. In general the Friends would like similar acknowledgement from ex-2x2s. I would love to see an ex-2x2 write a post on this forum saying, " Sure, I know the Church had problems, and I left it for x reason, but I've discovered there are just as many problems - some far worse - in evangelicalism today. And when the Friends point to these abuses and problems, they are pointing to real issues that need to be addressed." Too often we get from many exes the same sorts of behaviour they condemn in us. We get equivocation, caveats, excuses, justifications and the four-fingers-pointing routine. Rarely do exes acknowledge real abuses and real issues within the forms of Christianity they have chosen to embrace. A classic example: when I posted about Paula White's divorce and her lavish lifestyle, you will not find a SINGLE exe who acknowledged that her behaviour is wrong. And evil. Here we have a test case; an opportunity for exes to acknowledge and mourn for the emptiness, superficiality and unbiblical ministry of these pastors. Here is a chance for exes to admit that pastors "out there" are creating a monster: people converted with scant regard for Christ; a substitute gospel. Teenagers drawn by Halo III, not by the Holy Father who draws men and women and gives them into the care of Jesus.
Teenagers taught about the Gospel as an adjunct, or an interlude, or as a side-dish to the entertainment offered, like a commercial for God amongst the real attraction: gaming.
Teenagers whose interest in blowing other characters to confetti, whose violent impulses are indulged, instead of channelled productively elsewhere. Whose indulgence is not condemned, but accomodated.Let me ask any exe who supports this approach the following questions: ONEWhen has a testimony ever had power when it runs: " I got saved when I heard about this really cool Halo 3 tournament down at the local church. Usually I hate church, and I knew nothing about God, but I decided if it was about computer games - the latest stuff on fast machines - then I could risk the rep. So I went and had a blast. I was stunned by the fantastic graphics and the sleek explosion effects. Anyway, afterward a pastor told us to get saved, and he made me feel really guilty about all my sins, so I took the altar call, got saved and now I feel so much better." TWOWhat is the "staying power" of people converted this way. Are they likely to endure persecution, abuses, and oppression for the faith? Where will they be in ten years time? Still at church, slavering over Halo 3 and putting up with sermons about God in the background? -who are you to decide what a testimony looks like?
-Are you a Christian?? Tell us your testimony..how did you become one?? How did you progress from your communist beliefs to becoming a Christian?[glow=red,2,300] I say it again, for both you and bert this time..your only expressing your ignorance of what the normal Christian, and Christian church, is![/glow]
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Post by how stupid on Oct 15, 2007 1:45:01 GMT -5
git,
your commentary is too stupid to rate details responses. You are totally off your base.
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Post by gloryintruth on Oct 15, 2007 7:00:03 GMT -5
who are you to decide what a testimony looks like?
I have read literally hundreds of testimonies. I have read testimonies of atheists converting to Christianity, of Mormons and JW's converting to Christianity. I have read testimonies of Christians converting to Islam. I believe I can recognise a testimony that is shallow.
I do find your question ironic since criticising the Friend's testimonies, especially those given in convention, is prime sport, and one in which I feel sure you have engaged either on this forum or verbally with others.
Are you a Christian?? Tell us your testimony..how did you become one?? How did you progress from your communist beliefs to becoming a Christian?
Ha! You're the last person in the world I'd tell that to.
I say it again, for both you and bert this time..your only expressing your ignorance of what the normal Christian, and Christian church, is!
And I'll say this for the umpteenth time. I do not appreciate being lectured to from half a world away about the things of which I am apparently "ignorant". You are not in a position to know either Bert's, or my, experiences with denominational religion and therefore you are not in a position to presume to tell us any such thing.
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Post by gloryintruth on Oct 15, 2007 7:04:08 GMT -5
git, your commentary is too stupid to rate details responses. You are totally off your base.
I agree! I have spouted a veritable fountain of horse crap. Thank you for pointing that out.
None of my points are worth interacting with. Indeed, the very concept that there are abuses within evangelicalism is simply not a proposition any SANE person should be willing to tolerate for a MOMENT!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2007 7:17:09 GMT -5
Beautiful story bluejay, that's just the sort of activity that indicates the difference between the sheep and the goats as told in Matt25. Thanks for that. Bert - you ask "Can you modernize a church?" After I read your post I got to wondering what the church I attend is doing to attract youth. I'm going to ask the youth pastor, as I genuinely would like to know. This morning the pastor said something to the effect of "The message never changes, however the methodology of the presentation needs to - in order to connect with non-believers." He was referring to a complacent Christian ... never stepping out of their comfort zone to reach out to others. I agree with him. In many ways your own fellowship is modernizing itself. You now have many email lists & websites where you can encourage each other, and connect on a level that other f&w's can understand best. You're using modern technology to strengthen your faith. Yesterday, approximately 500 volunteers from the church I attend flooded the seedy part of our downtown area. Eight square blocks of the worst area were ministered to by men, women, teens and children. Some people swept the sidewalks & washed storefront windows. Others painted over graffiti. I saw youth walking around handing out pop to homeless people, and often they lingered & chatted for a few minutes. The ladies had gathered up bags of donated clothing and blankets, and the goods were set out on tables in the "drop in center". Hot chocolate was served as homeless/street people came in to shop for their winter coats & woolly socks. I chatted with a few people, and it helped me to remember we all have stories to tell. I wondered what had transpired to bring them to this place in their life. The afternoon ended with a barbecue & music. The difference in spirit & atmosphere in that area was palpable. In fact, two plainclothes policemen dropped by to check things out. ;D They had seen a sudden influx of 500+ people on their monitor in the police station. (They have cameras located on street corners in this area, to monitor the drug trade, etc.). As they weren't able to see clearly enough what type of crowd had swarmed the area they became concerned and came down to see. They were absolutely stunned that so many people would give up their time on a beautiful, sunny fall afternoon to serve a group of people most look down upon and avoid. Most days there is a feeling of helplessness, loss & danger on those streets. Yesterday, for a few hours, a spirit of love, service and hope prevailed. In my mind, we were the hands of Jesus yesterday. I view this type of service as an outward show of fruits of the Spirit. In a way, this is what I consider "modernizing a church". We were stepping outside the walls of the church, and taking the love of God to the most needy. It's awesome to see real love in action!!!! I agree totally with your closing sentence wings.
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Post by diet coke on Oct 15, 2007 14:00:46 GMT -5
It is my observation that youth today do require more instant gratification and entertainment, but that they also require logic and common sense. Kids are learning to think for themselves, and that is bad for traditional Christianity. My feelings are far from settled on this issue, but it sure seems like Christianity must change or continue to shrink in future generations.
I don't know what clearday means by "we need to get back to Christ", but the "timeless truths" that we grew up believing look an awful lot like fables to many of today's youth.
When Christianity and science both compromise to better understand the human need and reality of spiritual matters, future generations will be able to embrace God's work. I am not sure what direction Christianity will take in order to survive, but it will surely become much more liberal.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2007 14:22:00 GMT -5
diet coke, I should elaborate about "getting back to Christ'. Jesus presented some genuinely "timeless truths" which are just as relevant today as they were then, or even centuries before. There is an utter treasure trove of these in the Sermon on the Mount, Matt5-7, but also elsewhere as we see in His teachings. If we (all believers, not just 2x2s) could just strip away the traditions, the concepts, the idolatry,the blindness to God and embrace Christ as spirit and life, it would change the world. It would even change the religious Christian world too. Institutions would melt away in favour of Christian life, not Christian religious systems. I could go on, but I suspect you will get the idea. It is my observation that youth today do require more instant gratification and entertainment, but that they also require logic and common sense. Kids are learning to think for themselves, and that is bad for traditional Christianity. My feelings are far from settled on this issue, but it sure seems like Christianity must change or continue to shrink in future generations. I don't know what clearday means by "we need to get back to Christ", but the "timeless truths" that we grew up believing look an awful lot like fables to many of today's youth. When Christianity and science both compromise to better understand the human need and reality of spiritual matters, future generations will be able to embrace God's work. I am not sure what direction Christianity will take in order to survive, but it will surely become much more liberal.
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Post by diet coke on Oct 15, 2007 14:34:48 GMT -5
Jesus presented some genuinely "timeless truths" which are just as relevant today as they were then, or even centuries before. There is an utter treasure trove of these in the Sermon on the Mount, Matt5-7, but also elsewhere as we see in His teachings. I like this, a lot, and I stand corrected
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Post by Johnny DeRaad on Oct 15, 2007 16:14:31 GMT -5
me.. -who are you to decide what a testimony looks like?
git - I have read literally hundreds of testimonies. I have read testimonies of atheists converting to Christianity, of Mormons and JW's converting to Christianity. I have read testimonies of Christians converting to Islam. I believe I can recognise a testimony that is shallow.
I do find your question ironic since criticising the Friend's testimonies, especially those given in convention, is prime sport, and one in which I feel sure you have engaged either on this forum or verbally with others.
[glow=red,2,300] me.. you feel sure??. .what do you have to base this upon?? ..you will find no record of me being critical of anyones testimony...so how do you feel sure about this?[/glow] Are you a Christian?? Tell us your testimony..how did you become one?? How did you progress from your communist beliefs to becoming a Christian??
git. .. ..Ha! You're the last person in the world I'd tell that to.
[glow=red,2,300] me.. . ...I'm hurt..you know very little about me. .why would I be the last person on earth you'd tell your testimony too?? Are you ashamed of your story of how you became a Christian??. ..Don't you love having the opportunity to tell others what God did for you and how He changed your life and gave you new life?? I do! ... .this is a very juvenile, immature answer to my question. .is this you, git, or is it someone else filling in for you today??. .[/glow]
me. .. I say it again, for both you and bert this time..your only expressing your ignorance of what the normal Christian, and Christian church, is!
git- And I'll say this for the umpteenth time. I do not appreciate being lectured to from half a world away about the things of which I am apparently "ignorant". You are not in a position to know either Bert's, or my, experiences with denominational religion and therefore you are not in a position to presume to tell us any such thing.
[glow=red,2,300]me..and I say this for the eleventeenth time...my position is based solely on yours, and berts, postings here on your proclaimed views of the other worldly churches. .. ...these are so far from the reality of normal Christian churches that they can ONLY be based on ignorance of truth...the only conclusion that I can come to and render and opinion from.[/glow]
[glow=red,2,300] ..as you said above..you believe you can recognize when a testimony is shallow .. .. .. and I believe I can recognize ignorance when I hear and see it, as well[/color]![/glow] ..why does half a world away matter??. . which part of the world do you live in??. .please state it clearly..don't hint at someplace where things are done there in a certain way to make it SEEM as if that's where your from.
ps.. sorry to all for the ignorance on my part in not yet figuring out how to seperate all these quote parts and make them nice pretty distinctive colors so you know what was said by whom, when. .. .
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Post by just imagine on Oct 15, 2007 16:34:25 GMT -5
I agree! I have spouted a veritable fountain of horse crap. Thank you for pointing that out. You are quite welcome. Sorry that it had to be pointed out to you. Thought you were sharper than that. None of my points are worth interacting with. Indeed, the very concept that there are abuses within evangelicalism is simply not a proposition any SANE person should be willing to tolerate for a MOMENT! Indeed, the very concept that there are abuses within 2x2ism is not a proposition that you should be willing to tolerate for a moment.
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Post by shushy on Oct 16, 2007 3:28:22 GMT -5
Bluejay I loved reading your post..Thank you..its what christianity is all about. Reaching out to our neighbors and helping them.
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Post by Sylvestra on Oct 16, 2007 6:31:51 GMT -5
Quote by GIT:
I see this as a huge problem for meaningful relationships between ex-2x2s and the Friends. Generally, the Ex-2x2s want the Friends to:
Be honest about the Church's physical origin (The Irvine Controvesy).
Confront abuses and problems in the Church
Acknowledge legitamate concerns
But fair is fair. In general the Friends would like similar acknowledgement from ex-2x2s. I would love to see an ex-2x2 write a post on this forum saying, "Sure, I know the Church had problems, and I left it for x reason, but I've discovered there are just as many problems - some far worse - in evangelicalism today. And when the Friends point to these abuses and problems, they are pointing to real issues that need to be addressed."
Too often we get from many exes the same sorts of behaviour they condemn in us. We get equivocation, caveats, excuses, justifications and the four-fingers-pointing routine. Rarely do exes acknowledge real abuses and real issues within the forms of Christianity they have chosen to embrace. A classic example: when I posted about Paula White's divorce and her lavish lifestyle, you will not find a SINGLE exe who acknowledged that her behaviour is wrong. And evil.
Here we have a test case; an opportunity for exes to acknowledge and mourn for the emptiness, superficiality and unbiblical ministry of these pastors. Here is a chance for exes to admit that pastors "out there" are creating a monster: people converted with scant regard for Christ; a substitute gospel.
GIT.
I am going to share with you the way I feel about denominations, including the f & w.
Saul is a type and shadow of the Church (full body of Christ) under "pentecost" (the age from Christ to now). He was anointed King of the day of Pentecost, which meant (in type and shadow) that his anointing was leavened and, therefore, imperfect.
The Church by the third century AD was so completely leavened that it demanded that its laity "worship the Bishop" that it became anti-Christ. This was because the "priesthood" believed that they were vicar (in place of Christ) and spoke for Him even tho' much of what they believed was in complete rebellion to His Word. Yes, there was a laity, which should have never become part of the Church!!!
There are those in each denomination that are more perfected than the general group they fellowship with, and those will become the "overcomers" of the first resurrection who will be "changed in the twinkling of an eye". (The rest are what I call the "just saved".) The groups will always be imperfect until our LORD returns to rule the earth in His second advent.
Now, I'm not going to give "chapter and verse" and I'm not going to debate with you about my beliefs.
Best regards, Edy
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Post by kencoolidge on Oct 16, 2007 15:51:55 GMT -5
1Cr 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
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Post by Brick on Oct 16, 2007 17:23:58 GMT -5
The real issue is not about modernizing the church or the nature of the video game that some might use to lure young men in, but how do you evangelize? More specificly, how do you evangelize to young people? I doubt that many will be eager to attend a ritual gospel meeting in a library basement or community hall. But if you make the decision to connect with them, you have to choose their terrain. You can stay where you are and leave them where they are, but if you want to connect, someone has to move out of their comfort zone. I wonder if Bert has ever played Halo?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2007 17:46:19 GMT -5
Very perceptive Brick, I think you are quite right. Outreach is not about waiting around for people to show up without an invitation. Perhaps though with young people, you can also make your terrain theirs. Christian summer camps are an excellent way to outreach to young people. The one I am familiar with has all participants not only eager to go, but routinely invite their friends, believers and non-believers alike. The "terrain" is oriented to young people and their days are filled with both fun and spiritual teaching. What they do is "sandwich" the day. Bible reading and teaching first thing in the morning, and then teaching in the evening. The teaching is done by someone who is skilled at connecting with kids, so it is not onerous and boring. In between is fun, clean activities. It works, and young people are brought into a knowledge, or deeper knowledge and experience of God. Youth groups are another way to go. Kids get together for both fun and learning of God. I am in process of helping get one off the ground and our research has found that in a short evening, mixing the teaching and the activities is difficult, so we plan some sort of alternating evenings. Similarly, if the kids are benefiting, they will invite their friends. Outreach isn't much different for adults. If adults are benefitting from their church experience, they will bring others, and the church grows in usefulness. The real issue is not about modernizing the church or the nature of the video game that some might use to lure young men in, but how do you evangelize? More specificly, how do you evangelize to young people? I doubt that many will be eager to attend a ritual gospel meeting in a library basement or community hall. But if you make the decision to connect with them, you have to choose their terrain. You can stay where you are and leave them where they are, but if you want to connect, someone has to move out of their comfort zone. I wonder if Bert has ever played Halo?
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Post by wingsofaneagle on Oct 17, 2007 21:36:17 GMT -5
Right on guys! Our youth pastor is awesome with the kids in our church and he gets down on their level so that they can apply the bible to their lives. He makes it applicable to them. Lots of kids bring their friends to the groups where there are activities and a bible lesson and lots of prayer. My kids love it! He's also very much present in their day to day lives, administering to them for whatever they are going through etc.
I remember after I got out of the hospital after my back surgery in May, he called here every day to make sure we had everything we needed. He knew I couldn't drive for a few weeks so he picked the kids up and drove them everywhere! The boys have mentioned how easy he is to talk to. He used to be a drug addict and lived on the street for awhile. Most of the kids don't know that though.
The problem my kids had when we were going to meetings was that they didnt know how to apply the scripture or what they heard to their lives. For example, if they are bullied in school.... what should they do? What about sex and drugs? What is scriptural? None of those things were addressed by the workers. Yes I can guide them but im MOM! MOM to a teenager is usually someone who just 'doesnt understand'. Anyway, however the pastor does it, they listen to him and they love him for it.
Since my boys started going to this youth group they have brought several friends, 3 of whom have given their lives to God because of their experience there!!!! (They never brought or asked to bring anyone to meeting.)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2007 21:51:43 GMT -5
quote - "The real issue is not about modernizing the church or the nature of the video game that some might use to lure young men in, but how do you evangelize? More specificly, how do you evangelize to young people? I doubt that many will be eager to attend a ritual gospel meeting in a library basement or community hall. But if you make the decision to connect with them, you have to choose their terrain. You can stay where you are and leave them where they are, but if you want to connect, someone has to move out of their comfort zone. "
Do you think Jesus would have set up Playstations on the mount to attract the kids, had they been around then?
quote - "I wonder if Bert has ever played Halo?"
Nah, its not on PC, rats.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2007 22:00:06 GMT -5
quote - "The problem my kids had when we were going to meetings was that they didnt know how to apply the scripture or what they heard to their lives."
That seems like an odd statement to me.
quote - "For example, if they are bullied in school.... what should they do? What about sex and drugs? What is scriptural?"
bullied - heard of one boy who was bullied and responded by thanking his bully. Why? "Because you are increasing my reward in heaven!" That boy wasn't bullied anymore, the bully didn't want to reward his victim! But seriously, the scripture says you live within the law, you go to the law, and you don't fight.
Sex and drugs - We are pretty straight forward about that.
quote - "None of those things were addressed by the workers. Yes I can guide them but im MOM! MOM to a teenager is usually someone who just 'doesnt understand'. Anyway, however the pastor does it, they listen to him and they love him for it.
The pastors take on issues of the world, society, peer pressure and such. We take faith that leaving all to God means just that - allowing God to rule, guide, direct and bless.
Read the sermon on the mount - no mention of any of the world's issues. And remember, all Israel had these problems: being under subjugation to Rome.
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Post by wingsofaneagle on Oct 17, 2007 23:04:02 GMT -5
Bert said: "We take faith that leaving all to God means just that - allowing God to rule, guide, direct and bless."
So why do you need the workers then?
When was the last time you saw a child from the neighborhood or your kid's school come to gospel meeting and profess? How many families or individuals have you seen "saved" in your gospel meetings who did not grow up in "truth"? I live in a BIG metropolitan area and I can count on my right hand how many "outsiders" have professed in the last 20 years!!!!!!!! That doesnt sound like what Christ had in mind if you ask me.
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