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Post by Admin on Sept 20, 2007 21:39:18 GMT -5
Copied from the Administrative Issues thread: PRIVACY OF PERSONAL INFORMATION Your privacy is paramount. I understand and appreciate the reasons in our particular case for the need for confidence in this aspect. I have no interest in such details, and would never leak such information. Knowing nothing about who you are and where your interests lie this frankly does not mean much. While this is perhaps true, it is a moot point. Why? You have given me no reason to trust or distrust you. No, we had that choice when we registered when Ryan was the administrator. We no longer have that choice since you have access to all the email addresses, miscellaneous private information, IPs that people logged in with, and the IPs used for every post regardless of what we choose to do at this point. We can leave but that does not remove the information. Just as you are reluctant to reveal details about yourself, I am sure there are those who do not want their personal details revealed, especially to an unknown party. No offense. It is just after all the posturing by ProBoards and their TOS and at the end of it all they take the information of 1000+ users and turn it over to someone without informing the registered people that their email addresses etc were going to be shared. It is the principle of it more than anything else that I question. Apples and others have raised valid concerns. So as to keep this topic together, and leave that other thread uncluttered, I've started this thread specifically on privacy issues. I don't have answers but will listen to the concerns and suggestions. One aspect of this is the matter of whether to have co-administrators. An obvious development to help ease the workload, but carrying with it a ballooning of potential privacy concerns. Listening and grateful for advice.
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Post by CherieKropp on Sept 20, 2007 21:47:50 GMT -5
I can vouch for the new Admin. We've been friends for a couple years now. We met through the boards. We've emailed often. Daily for weeks on end at times. I also "know" some of the Admin's friends through the boards and email.
I have found the Admin to be full of integrity, and a person of good character with good ideas who loves God very much. I understand your concerns, and while my opinion may not count for much to some of you, you have absolutely NOTHING to worry about. Someday my husband and I hope to meet the Admin & Co. in person.
I am VERY glad the new Admin exerted the effort to resurrect the TMB. It was not like it was "the answer to a prayer." It's a lot of work for a person who already leads a very full life!
This thing dropped in this person's lap and it was either no TMB board, or become the Admin; i.e. the old Admin emailed the password and user name to this ONE hand picked person and said take the TMB if you want it. The new Admin doesn't even know who the old one was, or why they were hand picked.
I never knew who the first Admin was. This one asked me to keep it to myself, so that's why I am not answering your specific questions.
FWIW, Cherie
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Post by Thanks Cherie on Sept 20, 2007 22:16:15 GMT -5
I have found the Admin to be full of integrity, and a person of good character with good ideas who loves God very much. Wonderful! Are we to assume that his integrity includes his telling us what kind of person is now in charge of our personal information? Is he a 2x2 or an ex-2x2 and who did he post as in the past? Or would this reveal a side of him he'd rather keep secret? This would tell us a lot about who we are trusting to be in charge.
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Post by think about it on Sept 20, 2007 22:35:32 GMT -5
Funny that everyone trusted the last guy without question, and now this guy is getting raked over the coals.
Which of the two has Cherie's endorsement?
This isn't brain surgery, folks. Think about it.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Sept 20, 2007 22:49:06 GMT -5
Well I agree with the first statement. I can't be sure who it is, but if I have any kind of idea at all adn WITHOUT knowing this person in any way personally....Cherie's description seems accurate to me. You dont' have to trust anyone...at this point, it is what it is! YOu know? M. (and I didn't mean that the way it may have sounded....just sayin....)
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Post by your turn to think on Sept 20, 2007 23:02:53 GMT -5
Funny that everyone trusted the last guy without question, Odd. I missed that memo. Can you repost it? Thanks. Really? He's in charge of our information and us asking him what he's likely to do with it is "getting raked over the coals"? I remember the last administrator getting the same questions. He didn't answer either. This fueled the rumors that he was sharing IP addresses with Nathan9 and the Standing True Group. I'd like to see this administrator be a little more up-front and honest about his views and affiliation with the Truth so he can avoid some of this conspiracy theory nonsense. The possibility that the administrator may share private information with the workers (however paranoid that may sound) is a real deterrent to some current 2x2 visitors. I know several current 2x2s who won't come here to read because they are afraid of who might find out they've been here. Call it paranoid if you want, but it's a factor, like it or not. Of course participation here is pretty good and that's probably good enough. After all, what good is the potential of extra visitors if you refuse to acknowledge the potential? Should this matter? I find it amusing that Cherie has on her profile this: Condemnation without investigation is ignorance.Yet in this instance, she doesn't want us to investigate. She would rather we take her word for it. Well I don't take the workers at their word when they tell me that the only way to Jesus is through them and I'm not going to take Cherie's word for it either. I agree that condemnation without investigation is ignorance but I would like to add that investigation without full disclosure of information is nothing but guesswork. I have. Have you? Take Cherie's word for it if you want. But from this point forward, taking anyone to task for blindly listening to the workers makes you a hypocrite.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Sept 20, 2007 23:12:36 GMT -5
The thing that I just keep shaking my head over is this: (and I KNOW I've said it..but I'm going to say it ONE more time) IT. IS. TOO. LATE. (emphasis there..not meant to "talk down to you" or be rude.) If the person was going to use this information for other-than-honorable purposes...then he/she can already do that. Whether he/she reveals himself/herself at this late date is a moot point. (by the way, forget the grammatically-correct garbage from here on out...I'm sick of typing he/she instead of they) You know what I'm saying? What is the answer to that from anyone who wishes to know who the Admin is? Oddly enough, I PM'd Admin to ask if he/she would confirm or deny that they were such and so. I understand if they don't and swore to secrecy if they did reply, butno...I don't expect one. The thing is, it was for my own personal curiosity...to see if I was correct..that's all. If he/she would answer back and say ....nope! I wouldn't even think about it any more to be honest! AGAIN, I do understand that some others have good reason for wanting privacy and dont' feel the same, yes...but you didn't have privacy with the old Admin either...and most didn't know who he was upon joining either. What's the dif? M. Edited to add: (LOL) BUT, I LOVE your parting remark!!!!!! (Even tho I don't quiteeee agree with it fully....it's still great! hehe)
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Post by think about it on Sept 20, 2007 23:44:39 GMT -5
Funny that everyone trusted the last guy without question, Odd. I missed that memo. Can you repost it? Thanks. Really? He's in charge of our information and us asking him what he's likely to do with it is "getting raked over the coals"? I remember the last administrator getting the same questions. He didn't answer either. This fueled the rumors that he was sharing IP addresses with Nathan9 and the Standing True Group. I'd like to see this administrator be a little more up-front and honest about his views and affiliation with the Truth so he can avoid some of this conspiracy theory nonsense. The possibility that the administrator may share private information with the workers (however paranoid that may sound) is a real deterrent to some current 2x2 visitors. I know several current 2x2s who won't come here to read because they are afraid of who might find out they've been here. Call it paranoid if you want, but it's a factor, like it or not. Of course participation here is pretty good and that's probably good enough. After all, what good is the potential of extra visitors if you refuse to acknowledge the potential? Should this matter? I find it amusing that Cherie has on her profile this: Condemnation without investigation is ignorance.Yet in this instance, she doesn't want us to investigate. She would rather we take her word for it. Well I don't take the workers at their word when they tell me that the only way to Jesus is through them and I'm not going to take Cherie's word for it either. I agree that condemnation without investigation is ignorance but I would like to add that investigation without full disclosure of information is nothing but guesswork. I have. Have you? Take Cherie's word for it if you want. But from this point forward, taking anyone to task for blindly listening to the workers makes you a hypocrite. wow, you are really upset about this. Let me point out something. Everybody (who registered) under the previous admin gave their de facto trust in the previous admin. Don't shoot me, I'm just pointing out the obvious. "Obvious" doesn't require a memo. You should be able to pick up on it without a warning label. So feel free to retract your snarky remark anytime. The new admin has stated his intent to protect your privacy. However, you have implied that the only way your privacy will be protected is for him to waive his own! Now who's the hypocrite? Back at ya, babe. The banter was sweet, but you're not my type.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Sept 20, 2007 23:48:42 GMT -5
LOL. Just a disclaimer...I have no idea who either think about it or your turn to think is....but I just found that highly amusing! Hehehe. ( and wonder how either of YOU knows who the other is??) Maybe you're dissin a guy and not a "babe," think about it! Heh. Mich --but I do agree with that last post, I have to say....
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Post by the workers win on Sept 21, 2007 0:20:37 GMT -5
Not entirely. If your identity were stolen on Monday, would you paint your social security number on your car bumper on Tuesday? I have a friend here in town (a 2x2) who has a lot to offer the TMB. I finally convinced him that the old admin had a hands-off history and that it would be safe for him to post. He began participating right before the TMB got shut down. Then it went to hell and now that it's back, he won't even visit it. He's worried enough about his existing posts and isn't about to make things worse by adding another dozen or more. The other matter at hand here is the reputation of this board, especially for those THAT HAVE NEVER BEEN HERE. This board has a reputation (rightly or wrongly) of earning the friends a worker visit. I know of one such visit. If the admin here were upfront and in full-disclosure mode, it would go a long way to demonstrating his good faith in promising not to share confidential information with anyone. Well there you have it. I hope I was clear enough. Take comfort in this: Your opinion in this matter is the majority opinion here. The vast majority of people here don't care who the administrator is. They don't care what he learns about them and shares with the rest of the world. They don't care if others learn they visit Truth websites. After all it's expected of them because they're exes. Their myopic little paradigm says it doesn't bother them and it shouldn't bother anyone else. They see the traffic on this board as the best it will ever be. They have forgotten what it's like to be a brainwashed 2x2 living in fear of what the workers say. On the other hand, my opinion is in the minority and doesn't really matter because in the end, nobody is going to miss the extra 2x2s that are afraid to come here. Nobody will even notice they've never been here. (You can't miss something if you've never known it to exist.) Why would anyone here want 2x2 visitors anyway? All they do is add to the frustration and misunderstandings. 2x2s have a lot to learn but it's not our job to teach them or point them in the right direction. Heck, this board is dedicated to the circle-jerk exes patting each-other on the back and walking in circles. That's fine. It's about time I give up and admit that this board deserves the reputation it's gotten in 2x2 circles and stop trying to convince 2x2s that they can learn something by coming here free from a fear of worker retaliation.
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Post by think again on Sept 21, 2007 0:31:48 GMT -5
Everybody (who registered) under the previous admin gave their de facto trust in the previous admin. Don't shoot me, I'm just pointing out the obvious. You said: Funny that everyone trusted the last guy without questionSure, there was some trust at some level, but without question? That's an extraordinary claim. So once again, memo please. The problem, it seems, is that I read what you wrote. Back at ya. A promise is only as good as the character of the person who utters it. Remember this: "Read my lips... No New Taxes." Or if you'd rather: "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." Worthless words from worthless men. Sorry, but that's the price of leadership. Would you rather your leaders and those with rule/control over you be anonymous? LOL. You thought you had this wrapped up! Now you. I think you're right. I prefer logic to emotion.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Sept 21, 2007 0:35:15 GMT -5
Well, *I* for one will miss the 2x2s that come here...because, Ex or not, (Ex!)(which I ONLY say with a !! because I have been questioned about it SO much!) I have nothing but respect for the friends and workers that I know. NOT each and every one that I've ever heard of, quite obviously, but the ones I know are wonderful people...and I harbor NOTHING against the meetings or religion personally....
Anyway, I take NO comfort in the fact that I share the majority opinion. In fact, I didn't know that I did. It seemed to be the other way 'round to me.
The only thing I am still confused about is the it's too late...possibly not thing. The Admin already does have the info, no? I get what you mean about painting the info on the car, yeah...and all that...but what does that have to do with this? If Admin indentifies him or herself...how does that stop him/her from using the info they already have??? Not that I think they will...just saying...you know? Eh...at any rate. Not trying to quibble with anyone. I DO get why some people want the privacy..I really, really do. I just don't think there's anything to be done about it after the fact. The switch has been made. M.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Sept 21, 2007 0:38:41 GMT -5
and hey...I would rather use the example of.... "we're going in to get weapons of mass destruction," ty very much...but that's a wholeeee 'nother topic! heheh M. think again....do I know you? Emotion is good, too. M.
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Post by fyi off topic on Sept 21, 2007 0:48:30 GMT -5
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Sept 21, 2007 0:53:43 GMT -5
First link didn't work; clicked the rest.
Hmmm. Interesting. Thx for sharing. That said, although I know I definitely *should* be more involved....I just don't get into politics too much. BLEH. I have enough on my mind! I watch the debates and read up as much as possible a few months before election time, keep up with major headlines...but...it just doesn't interest me for the post part! (and yeah... I do know how bad that sounds!) But...interesting links. Will read them later in entirety...skimmed for now. M.
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Post by to wtbwg on Sept 21, 2007 1:03:52 GMT -5
The only thing I am still confused about is the it's too late...possibly not thing. The Admin already does have the info, no? Yes he already does have the information. It's a numbers/statistics/method thing though. If the admin gathers up all the IP addresses and makes them all public, then it doesn't matter how many times a person has posted. But if he just makes the IP addresses public of certain posts/topics/threads then those who posted only a few times are less likely to have their information shared. It has to do with increasing ones risk of exposure. It doesn't. All it does is show that in good faith, he is willing to be more accountable for his actions. (For example, "the TMB admin did xyz" vs "Edgar Massie did xyz" or "GIT did xyz".) It also gives folks a baseline from which to interpret some of his censorship activities (it'll happen - wait for it) if he identifies himself as a 2x2 or an ex-2x2. If he seems unfairly hard on GIT and I know he's an ex, I can consider the possibility that he really is being unfair to GIT. The question is: Would anything need to be done after the fact? The answer is: That depends on whether or not the admin can be trusted.
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Post by evidence on Sept 21, 2007 1:12:57 GMT -5
Where's the evidence of a problem?
So the admin has IP addresses? So wheres the risk?
So he/she makes them public? What can anyone actually do with an IP? Can#t buy anything with it, can't use it for security, can't do much with a bunch of numbers.
And where's the evidence that anyones identity (even their name, address etc) being known here is a problem?
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Post by to evidence on Sept 21, 2007 1:30:31 GMT -5
Where's the evidence of a problem? A minority here would like to prevent a potential problem. The rest don't see driving 2x2s away as a problem. Yes. That's the way the system works. He could make them public. In most cases, not much of any consequence. In a few cases, it could matter. You seem intelligent. Use your imagination. Really? Then give me a bunch of numbers. Start with your social security number, your birthdate, your IP address, the property ID number for the lot you're living on, your bank account number, your bank's routing number, and the number on the front of your dwelling. That "bunch of numbers" that I "can't do much with" ought to be a good start (for nothing of course). Well, Jesse did get that "I know where you live" letter from GIT. Then there was that couple in a rural area who were notified by the workers that their son, who was living with them at the time, was conversing with the "enemies of the Truth". The IP address gave them away in their small community. I'm sure there's more, the story just dead ends before it gets here.
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Sept 21, 2007 2:05:43 GMT -5
Just for the record, I'm not "evidence." I'm always just me. That said, Jessi got that letter...yes...but anyone could have done that. As I said, someone came up with my phone number with a general location and a first name. (as far as what came from ME directly, not what was out there, obviously) I do get your point about the IPs of 2x2s though, ESPECIALLY in small communities. Unfortuntely, in that regard, the Admin is either going to identify him/herself or he/she's not. And it looks like not. We'll have to wait and see. For your sake, and others, I hope he does. I personally don't care. M.
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Post by twosweetnaive on Sept 21, 2007 3:37:21 GMT -5
Updated: 4:56 p.m. CT May 17, 2004 BAGHDAD, Iraq - A roadside bomb thought to contain deadly sarin nerve agent exploded near a U.S. military convoy, the U.S. military said Monday. It was believed to be the first confirmed discovery of any of the banned weapons that the United States cited in making its case for the Iraq war.
Two members of a military bomb squad were treated for “minor exposure,” but no serious injuries were reported.
The chemicals were inside an artillery shell dating to the Saddam Hussein era that had been rigged as a bomb in Baghdad, said Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, the chief military spokesman in Iraq. that was reported by msnbc, but msnbc is owned by General Electric, the 9th largest defense contractor in the world. hmmmm good to be able to say such a thing IN BIG LETTERS EVEN. "thought to contain" "believed to be" .... by who, GM lobbyists ?? ;D
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Post by Hide Your Identity on Sept 21, 2007 5:57:38 GMT -5
Anyone concerned about revealing your identity, come to TMB through this website: notyourip.com/
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Post by think about it on Sept 21, 2007 7:44:08 GMT -5
Oh well. If you don't like it. LEAVE.
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Post by myview on Sept 21, 2007 7:50:11 GMT -5
Privacy is not a concern to me personally, I don't care.
I also don't care who the administrator is here, whether a person is an innie or an outie or an inbetweenie. I think it has been amply demonstrated in the past that a person's integrity and maturity is not at all determined by where they fall on THAT belief spectrum. However, in reading this thread and other expressions of concern, I think people want the reassurance that this person is NOT a pipeline to the workers. And that is fair enough.
So how about it admin? A clear and unequivocal statement that any information that you are able to glean by virtue of the position you hold WILL NOT be shared with the workers or any other individual.
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Post by Admin on Sept 21, 2007 8:10:51 GMT -5
However, in reading this thread and other expressions of concern, I think people want the reassurance that this person is NOT a pipeline to the workers. And that is fair enough. So how about it admin? A clear and unequivocal statement that any information that you are able to glean by virtue of the position you hold WILL NOT be shared with the workers or any other individual. It is fair enough. I categorically assure everybody that I am not a conduit in any way to any worker. Nor will any personal information be given out to any other individual. The head of the church is Christ, I am not beholden to any man.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2007 8:29:36 GMT -5
The issue of encouraging skittish 2x2's to participate here is a valid one. Not only is this forum pretty much the Wild West sometimes, but privacy is at least a minor issue. I'm not sure if by the Admin identifying himself it would resolve the privacy concern. If the Admin was a 2x2, it may even heighten concerns that IPs will pipeline back to the 2x2 system. At least if the Admin is an ex, it is likely that their connections to the system is fairly broken unless the Admin was intent on getting participants into trouble with the workers or others. The latter instance is quite unlikely though, the Admin would have to be a basketcase to do something so vicious. That being said, there are plenty of 2x2 people out there who love to forward things to people who know other people. I have seen that for years now on various forums and it has caused distress for many people within the meetings. A few years ago after open participation on a forum I even had an elder cryptically say, "you should be careful about what you are feeding on." It didn't bother me as he was a fellow with plenty of mental problems and his remark meant nothing to me other than it revealed how the inner circles within the 2x2s are abuzz at trying to detect "enemies within" and people with "lost vision". If you are a sensitive 2x2 whose main social network is in the church, it could really hurt to get identified as participating on one of these forums, you could become a pariah quite quickly. I don't know how the Admin could assure participants that IPs would never be used outside this forum other than stating his/her assurance in an unequivocal manner. Perhaps this forum is forever doomed to have limited 2x2 participation? Privacy is not a concern to me personally, I don't care. I also don't care who the administrator is here, whether a person is an innie or an outie or an inbetweenie. I think it has been amply demonstrated in the past that a person's integrity and maturity is not at all determined by where they fall on THAT belief spectrum. However, in reading this thread and other expressions of concern, I think people want the reassurance that this person is NOT a pipeline to the workers. And that is fair enough. So how about it admin? A clear and unequivocal statement that any information that you are able to glean by virtue of the position you hold WILL NOT be shared with the workers or any other individual.
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Post by junia on Sept 21, 2007 8:40:59 GMT -5
Perhaps this forum is forever doomed to have limited 2x2 participation? I doubt it's the fear of identity leaks that keeps the number of 2x2 participants low. I believe it's apathy. Most 2x2s are quite happy being the only true church and have no interest in or knowledge of this board. You and I Clearday are by far the exception. One of the first things I did when I got hooked up to the internet in 1996 was search for 2x2 related content on Yahoo. I got three results at the time!
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Apples
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Post by Apples on Sept 21, 2007 9:17:13 GMT -5
Funny that everyone trusted the last guy without question, and now this guy is getting raked over the coals. Which of the two has Cherie's endorsement? This isn't brain surgery, folks. Think about it. Perhaps you also need to think about it - some of us did know who the last admin was. He was not, at least by some, trusted without question. While Cherie's endorsement is useful I to question why some basic details aren't forth coming. Regarding the comments about the IPs just being a bunch of numbers - that view may be held because you have not been exposed to what they can be used for. The same is true with, for example, social security numbers. I doubt there are few here that could find a use for them either but for people with a different skill set they are the keys to additional information. For example - there are people who post logged in so everyone knows them and then they also post as an unregistered guest. It is very probable that they would not want it made public that they were the authors of both posts. If people really think that IPs are not such a big deal why not notify the Admin to flip the switch and have the poster's IP displayed with every post? After all, they are just a bunch of numbers. Or maybe some enterprising person could capture the IPs of all of the posters and readers and generate a report at the end of each day to show the IPs and the associated activity. In addition to the IPs there are the email addresses that frequently identify trusting people in a much more direct way. A little information from the administrator is what is being requested. So far we know they are a theist and that Cherie feels they are a person of integrity. I have no reason to doubt she believes what she has stated. On the other hand... edit: Things move fast. A clear and open statement from the Administrator is certainty a step in the right direction. Thank you.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2007 9:22:13 GMT -5
What are we, weird or something Junias? I agree that a sort of widespread apathy does exist. Many 2x2s have "found the truth" and that's that, close the case, close the eyes, plug the ears. There is though, a segment of the friends and workers who intuitively know something is not working in the church yet their lives, especially their family and social lives, are so intricately bound up in the system that they fear being seen stepping outside the circle. It's that group who could both add value and gain value from a forum such as this. They would only participate with a great deal of assurance of privacy. Perhaps this forum is forever doomed to have limited 2x2 participation? I doubt it's the fear of identity leaks that keeps the number of 2x2 participants low. I believe it's apathy. Most 2x2s are quite happy being the only true church and have no interest in or knowledge of this board. You and I Clearday are by far the exception. One of the first things I did when I got hooked up to the internet in 1996 was search for 2x2 related content on Yahoo. I got three results at the time!
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