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Post by selah on Sept 8, 2007 18:03:31 GMT -5
Hi Bert,
In other churches the people don't talk about Neanderthal either, and they seldom talk about the history of their churches. Their focus is on Jesus where it's supposed to be. However, they do not have a restriction forbidding the discussion, or even "mention," of their founders. I think that's what Lloyd is getting at, don't you?
Blessings, Linda
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2007 5:52:46 GMT -5
Hi Selah Neanderthal isn't "one of us." And he died out about 35,000 years ago - which is about 28,000 years prior to when (some in my church believe) God created the earth. And, our church service doesn't touch upon history of any kind, let alone things with negative implications. Thus to Irvine... Suppose, as a young man, I filled the shoes of some Irvine figure, founding my own modern church. And suppose, now well advanced in years as a senior preacher, I hear people speak about me in the meetings. I would be grieved to hear my name mentioned - why? Not because of modesty or secrecy, but because of implications. The implication is that because the founder is a man, therefore the church is of man. How can it be of man when I believed I was moved by the spirit, and was obeying the scripture which gave explicit and implicit instructions on how a church should be conducted? Famous men such as George Fox's (Quakers,) Joseph Smith (Church of Latter Day Saints) Peter Chelcicky (Anabaptist) and William Booth (Salvation Army) founded what I consider to be man's ideas about worship. Thus, crediting me with starting yet another religion would imply that this is all my church is - just another church started by just another man. And I wouldn't accept that.
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Post by selah on Sept 9, 2007 8:03:19 GMT -5
Hi Bert.....sorry about my lack of education regarding Neanderthal. Only exclusive churches have a fear of their church appearing as "just another church made by man." That fear is there, because they are under a mistaken belief that ANY church can replace the TRUE Church. Of course each of these believes that their own church is the RIGHT one...the one that Jesus founded. The Church is what Jesus founded, and a man-made church cannot alter that. Jesus Christ is the truth and cannot be "made by man," and most churches are quite aware of that. That's why they have no fear to consider/discuss their histories. They know that EVERY church has been founded by a man, but that the Church (Spirit-filled believers in Jesus Christ) was founded by Jesus. Of course there are some (few...and usually only those who believe they have the ONLY TRUTH) who elevate the founder...and these...once again have placed the importance in the wrong place. All born-again people are part of the Church that Jesus founded. In the beginning it was the gathering of people who trusted and believed in Him, and today it is exactly the same thing. There are many administrations, traditions etc....but only ONE Spirit of God. The variety of methods for conducting meetings are just that. Placing a value of being the ONLY TRUE CHURCH on a method of ministry/worship is misrepresenting what the N.T. taught...that the Church is people .... not methods. WE are the temple of God, and His truth is Jesus Christ who dwells in us by His Spirit. When we place the emphasis on the wrong thing, the genuine truth is neglected, and in some cases even lost. To simplify - Some place the emphasis on the founder, others place the emphasis on worship/ministry method...but the emphasis ought to be placed on Jesus Christ, who indwells us by the Spirit. Blessings, Linda
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2007 8:19:30 GMT -5
Hi Selah, re your quote "The Church is what Jesus founded, and a man-made church cannot alter that. Jesus Christ is the truth and cannot be "made by man," and most churches are quite aware of that." I will use an "extreme" example: The Church of Latter Day Saints of Jesus Christ (aka Mormons.) Do you believe this church has altered what Jesus preached?
quote - "That's why they have no fear to consider/discuss their histories." Do you believe the Mormons have been honest with their story about Joseph Smith and the gold tablets?
quote - They know that EVERY church has been founded by a man, but that the Church (Spirit-filled believers in Jesus Christ) was founded by Jesus. If Mormons practice something not practiced by Jesus and his church, do you still believe their own church was founded by Jesus?
quote - "All born-again people are part of the Church that Jesus founded. In the beginning it was the gathering of people who trusted and believed in Him, and today it is exactly the same thing. There are many administrations, traditions etc....but only ONE Spirit of God. The variety of methods for conducting meetings are just that." So you would accept that Joseph Smith is a true prophet also?
quote - "Placing a value of being the ONLY TRUE CHURCH on a method of ministry/worship is misrepresenting what the N.T. taught...that the Church is people .... not methods." How would you gauge whether Mormons are right or wring if not by their methods of worship?
Selah, by "Mormon" I am also referring to Shakers, Quakers, Salvo's etc. Jesus did not shake, quake or march down the street blowing trumpets. What you call "method" we call example.
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Post by selah on Sept 9, 2007 17:31:07 GMT -5
I will use an "extreme" example: The Church of Latter Day Saints of Jesus Christ (aka Mormons.) Do you believe this church has altered what Jesus preached?
Yes, I do. The Mormons are one of the exclusive churches I was talking about. There are only a few that fit that category...Mormons, JWs, 7th Day Adventist, Bible Baptist, United Pentecostal, f&w...and a few others. Then there are those on the other extreme who have a belief system that says pretty much anything goes. The Church that Jesus founded is one that includes ONLY those who have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. It really has very little to do with what man-made church they go to. However, it is difficult to reconcile differences between those who are born-again, and those who are nominal or legalistic "Christians."
Do you believe the Mormons have been honest with their story about Joseph Smith and the gold tablets?
They have told the story over and over. They believe it. In that sense they are not trying to be dishonest, but they could be unknowingly repeating a story that isn't true.
If Mormons practice something not practiced by Jesus and his church, do you still believe their own church was founded by Jesus?
I do not believe their church was founded by Jesus....nor any other. It is the Church...the body of Spirit-filled believers that Jesus founded. All the rest are founded by men.
So you would accept that Joseph Smith is a true prophet also?
No, I wouldn't. The question is not "What church does he belong to?" but rather, "Is he born again of the Spirit of God?" or rather...."Am I born again of the Spirit of God?" Some of the things Joseph Smith taught are completely opposed to the character of God in the Bible. ie. God was originally a man, and was elevated to godhood for living an exemplary life. The same is available to us, and then we will have our own world to rule just as God does. That's one of Mormonism's teachings. I believe that's contrary to the Bible.
How would you gauge whether Mormons are right or wring if not by their methods of worship?
See above. And, it is not my primary responsibility to determine if a church is right or wrong. My job is to be sure I'm born again, and then share the good news of God's grace with everyone.
Selah, by "Mormon" I am also referring to Shakers, Quakers, Salvo's etc. Jesus did not shake, quake or march down the street blowing trumpets. What you call "method" we call example.
Well, Jesus spit on a man's eyes and gave him sight...literal sight. Who does that? Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding. Who does that? Jesus received quite a lot of fanfare as he rode into Jerusalem on a donkey. On other occasions He drew crowds of people around Him...even THOUSANDS! He was creating quite a stir! Did He shake or quake? I don't know, but He did do some strange things.
However, the example Jesus set before us was one of regeneration, new life, being filled with the Spirit....victory over death...deliverance from sin...relationship with Father God...restoration and resurrection...LOVE of God and mankind.
That's the example He asks us to follow.
Blessings, Linda
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2007 20:21:54 GMT -5
quote - "Well, Jesus spit on a man's eyes and gave him sight...literal sight. Who does that? Jesus turned water into wine at a wedding. Who does that? Selah. When Jesus said "You follow me" he meant "you follow my example of how to live." We understand that didn't mean we were to be Messiahs ourselves.
quote - "However, the example Jesus set before us was one of regeneration, new life, being filled with the Spirit....victory over death...deliverance from sin...relationship with Father God...restoration and resurrection...LOVE of God and mankind." And also, bearing reproach, forgiving, loving, not tolerating sin, laying down one's life etc.
To me a church founded by men is one which doesn't appear in the scripture. I see a Christian priest or a Christian temple as bizarre and alien as Joseph Smith's revelation of the Jesus being in America.
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Post by selah on Sept 10, 2007 0:10:34 GMT -5
When Jesus said "follow me," I think He meant to follow Him into the new life of the Spirit....into the Kingdom of God...the realm of the Spirit. You're right...He doesn't intend us to be Messiahs; nor does He want us to simply copy His behaviors. He wants us to "follow" Him, by dying to our old nature and living in HIM. He is real and living. By walking in the Spirit, our behaviors become the product of the new creatures we are...not because we are mimicking Him. I believe Jesus desire was for more of an inner influence than for outer regulations. Bert, we've had to agree to disagree before, and perhaps we must again...but I do appreciate your willingness to discuss this with me. Thanks. The most important part of being a believer is the new birth in the Spirit made available to us through the life and death of our Savior, Jesus. I think on this we agree. Blessings, Linda
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Post by then on Sept 10, 2007 0:18:04 GMT -5
To me a church founded by men is one which doesn't appear in the scripture. Then you are a member of a church which doesn't appear in the scripture. It's sad how willingly blind you are to research.
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savedbyblood
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Eventually we'll figure it all out!
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Post by savedbyblood on Sept 10, 2007 1:38:15 GMT -5
We don't mention Irvine in a meeting because of the implication that our church is purely a man made affair (we believe it is more than that.) We also don't mention evolution, the age of the universe, the authenticity of biblical documents, biblical history, philosophy, current events, prehistoric man, the Catholic Church, Tom Cruise, French poetry, rocky road ice cream or Paris in the summer time. When I was 2x2 there was no mention of compassion or prayer for the families or victims of the 9/11 incident the Sunday after. No one prayed of the war, nor of anyone with health, personal issues. The bible teaches us to pray for all things, I'm glad I found this way, Help me to do better in this way, is NOT all things.... Firstborn, did you pray for the families or victims of the 9/11 incident the Sunday after? I did. In Meeting, and was not killed for my effort.
Have you ever prayed for our men and women in service to our Country and in harm's way so that we can enjoy the freedom to meet as we choose? I have. In Meeting and we were blessed with the presence of an ex Army Ranger who had seen much action in the first Iraq War and he ventured to pray for our military people.
Have you ever prayed in meeting for someone by name for his health and recovery? I have not and was shamed this passed Wednesday when an older woman who has professed for but a few years prayed for our Sunday Elder by name with two Sister Workers in our group and nobody batted an eye or gave her the evil look!
If we wish for change in the 2by2 Church to a better understanding of the Word of God in the Bible, we must be willing to slowly effect the changes in ourselves. We must be the examples which Jesus Christ mentioned. We must needs be the candle NOT hid under the bushel! The 2by2 Church is shrouded in some secrecy and there is no need for this secrecy. Jesus Christ did not preach in secret! The apostles did not preach in secret.
This secrecy has been handed down since the beginning years of this Way and for whatever reason the thought process of the leaders is steeped in tradition for tradition's sake. Yet some tradition is necessary for the edification of our souls. We are in this world yet to remain unspotted by it.
I apologize for drifting away from the subject of this thread. I have known for years who William Irvine was and the roll he played in the beginning of this Way. Every church in the history of mankind has a founder. For one to attempt to return to what some see by intrepretation as what Jesus began is no more far-fetched than the LDS (God was man who became divine over time by living a perfect life and that we begin as spirits who CHOOSE to be here to TRY to live up to the Mormon Standard and become a god himself!
I choose to not argue over this, preferring to believe the words of Jesus Christ to John in Revelation concerning Liars and false prophets. If we can save one of his "lost souls" as Jesus said, we will cover a multitude of sins.
If we cannot reason with them, then allow them to go in peace and continue your struggle, ever so softly to illuminate others. Peace in Him,
SBB
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_
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Post by _ on Sept 10, 2007 1:44:13 GMT -5
The thought expressed in one meeting following 9-11 was how thankful to hear that none of "God's Children" died that day (not verbatim)...
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Post by Really on Sept 10, 2007 3:23:17 GMT -5
You mean that no Christians died that day or no 2x2s (William Irivine= God , that is his none of his children died that day)
Of course 2x2s cannot die. (They're already dead)
-Really
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