|
Post by almost on Aug 7, 2006 10:50:08 GMT -5
When so called Christians discuss their fellow humans in this manner, it is as if they spit into God's face. We are created in His likeness, Everyone is conceived in Divinity. Discounting anyone because they aren't in a certain belief system, designed and controlled by MAN, underscores how LITTLE they understand that which they profess to know. Unless I have read this incorrectly you are discounting them because they discounted others. What you have said is that what you believe is more correct than what they believe.
|
|
|
Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Aug 7, 2006 14:30:52 GMT -5
Actually, when I lived in this state a few years ago, it was frowned on by some of the elder women that I wore makeup, refused to wear hose (NO THANKS!) and had sleeveless blouses. Even worse, I once wore a blue jean skirt to sunday morning meeting! (SHOCK!)
Where I come from (Texas) it is much more relaxed. Sleeveless blouses are fine, skirts that show the kneecaps are fine, flipflops to sunday morning meeting are fine.
I just don't let people push me around here... and I've also noticed that the mothers here are allowing their young teenage girls to skip over the hose and whatnot as well.
And, odd as it is, the workers keep giving us more and more privileges as a family.. even though we clearly don't follow these unwritten dress code rules... and the like. Maybe they are actually looking for people passionate about Jesus, and not hell bent on rules that arent even biblical?
|
|
|
Post by spiderman on Aug 7, 2006 16:05:14 GMT -5
Actually, when I lived in this state a few years ago, it was frowned on by some of the elder women that I wore makeup, refused to wear hose (NO THANKS!) and had sleeveless blouses. Even worse, I once wore a blue jean skirt to sunday morning meeting! (SHOCK!) Where I come from (Texas) it is much more relaxed. Sleeveless blouses are fine, skirts that show the kneecaps are fine, flipflops to sunday morning meeting are fine. I just don't let people push me around here... and I've also noticed that the mothers here are allowing their young teenage girls to skip over the hose and whatnot as well. And, odd as it is, the workers keep giving us more and more privileges as a family.. even though we clearly don't follow these unwritten dress code rules... and the like. Maybe they are actually looking for people passionate about Jesus, and not hell bent on rules that arent even biblical? That all sounds great. But the strictness or slackness of the workers in any area have a lot to do with who's in charge. For instance, if Maurice Close was sent from Canada to oversee Texas, there would be some real changes. From what I've seen I'd have to agree that Texas is ahead of the Midwest when it comes to women's decor. However that stuff is just all wood, hay, and stubble compared to how wrong most of the 2x2 doctrine appears. Even the doctrine is up for grabs, again, depending on who or which overseer you're speaking with. You sound like you're happy and settled and I wouldn't be one to rock your boat. I just think it's interesting when people stay when they disagree with just about everything the 2x2's stand for, ESPECIALLY, the Living Witness Doctrine. That really was the final straw for me, and it's what will keep me from ever going back, even though I miss 99% of the people we may never see again.
|
|
|
Post by wondering on Aug 7, 2006 18:43:55 GMT -5
Withopeneyes - Are you in the Colleyville locale? The women and girls a few states to the north of you very seldom wear the items you mentioned and jean skirts are a big thing. Even with slits. One family all have painted toe nails that show nicely with their thongs (on their feet). Even the staunch are going hoseless, can't say no panty hose cause I don't know. Hopefully the other "toes" won't be showing up but we will wait and see.
|
|
|
Post by mrtindrucvionging on Aug 7, 2006 18:56:04 GMT -5
Actually, when I lived in this state a few years ago, it was frowned on by some of the elder women that I wore makeup, refused to wear hose (NO THANKS!) and had sleeveless blouses. Even worse, I once wore a blue jean skirt to sunday morning meeting! (SHOCK!) Where I come from (Texas) it is much more relaxed. Sleeveless blouses are fine, skirts that show the kneecaps are fine, flipflops to sunday morning meeting are fine. I just don't let people push me around here... and I've also noticed that the mothers here are allowing their young teenage girls to skip over the hose and whatnot as well. And, odd as it is, the workers keep giving us more and more privileges as a family.. even though we clearly don't follow these unwritten dress code rules... and the like. Maybe they are actually looking for people passionate about Jesus, and not hell bent on rules that arent even biblical? That sounds great, WOE, that there is less emphasis on appearances, especially for the young girls! In this area, I would say that pantyhose are more the exception now. So it's gone from black stockings to regular hose to bare legs okay on Wed. and now, bare legs okay anytime....although...there are times when hose are way more tasteful...my take, fwiw
|
|
|
Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Aug 7, 2006 19:54:43 GMT -5
Spidey,
Many people ask me why I stay- and I'll give you the reason. Because I have experienced the love and the wonderful spirit of a group of these people who are passionate about Jesus, and who believe with all their hearts and ARE NOT focused on the petty things.
I feel like God has placed us here, in this town, in these meetings, because he wants to refresh hearts. We are ministering to these people here about LOVE, GRACE, and JESUS, and God has blessed us for it. There are so many people who want the focus realigned on Jesus, they just need help.
I know I can't change the world, but I am doing what God asked me to do. So, people can tell me it's stupid that I stay, but I say different. I love these people. I love their souls. I want to help them see Jesus.
|
|
|
Post by déjà vu on Aug 7, 2006 20:20:45 GMT -5
", it was frowned on by some of the elder women that I wore makeup, " Some say that it is a sin to wear make -up , I SAY it is a sin for some women NOT to wear it ( Adrian Rogers)
|
|
_
Junior Member
Posts: 71
|
Post by _ on Aug 7, 2006 20:48:33 GMT -5
wonderful spirit of a group of these people who are passionate about Jesus, and who believe with all their hearts and ARE NOT focused on the petty things. Sidenote comment - I'm sure many have said the very same thing about mormons and their zeal for God. Yet does that change the fact they (mormons) serve another jesus?
|
|
|
Post by PS on Aug 7, 2006 20:58:08 GMT -5
wonderful spirit of a group of these people who are passionate about Jesus, and who believe with all their hearts and ARE NOT focused on the petty things. Sidenote comment - I'm sure many have said the very same thing about mormons and their zeal for God. Yet does that change the fact they (mormons) serve another jesus? F&W serve the Jesus of Nazarene(sp), is this a Mormon board? Your reality, isnt the real reality of the rest of the world.
|
|
_
Junior Member
Posts: 71
|
Post by _ on Aug 7, 2006 21:06:04 GMT -5
No it is not, why do you ask? Relativism is the tool of the devil!
|
|
|
Post by klmn on Aug 7, 2006 21:08:26 GMT -5
Relativism is the tool of the devil! and so are your words
|
|
BC
Senior Member
Posts: 852
|
Post by BC on Aug 8, 2006 4:00:33 GMT -5
Spidey, Many people ask me why I stay- and I'll give you the reason. Because I have experienced the love and the wonderful spirit of a group of these people who are passionate about Jesus, and who believe with all their hearts and ARE NOT focused on the petty things. I feel like God has placed us here, in this town, in these meetings, because he wants to refresh hearts. We are ministering to these people here about LOVE, GRACE, and JESUS, and God has blessed us for it. There are so many people who want the focus realigned on Jesus, they just need help. I know I can't change the world, but I am doing what God asked me to do. So, people can tell me it's stupid that I stay, but I say different. I love these people. I love their souls. I want to help them see Jesus. Amen Withopeneyes, I feel a little sad that some like spidey and co leave this way as we really need them and folk like you to bring reality to this fellowship and to love and care for folks souls rather than their stockings and hair etc. I too love these people who show so much love and care to me and my family and with whom I have such sweet fellowship and share our love for God. I like you feel the need to help and encourage those that are caught up with the worker worship and rules and exclusivity things, though in our area we are really lucky and have a wonderful and diverse mix of folk and only a few self righteous ones. [shadow=red,left,300]Regards BC[/shadow]
|
|
|
Post by spiderman on Aug 8, 2006 7:24:04 GMT -5
Spidey, Many people ask me why I stay- and I'll give you the reason. Because I have experienced the love and the wonderful spirit of a group of these people who are passionate about Jesus, and who believe with all their hearts and ARE NOT focused on the petty things. I feel like God has placed us here, in this town, in these meetings, because he wants to refresh hearts. We are ministering to these people here about LOVE, GRACE, and JESUS, and God has blessed us for it. There are so many people who want the focus realigned on Jesus, they just need help. I know I can't change the world, but I am doing what God asked me to do. So, people can tell me it's stupid that I stay, but I say different. I love these people. I love their souls. I want to help them see Jesus. I'm glad you feel as strongly as you do and I would not encourage you to leave under the circumstances you describe. However know this, in the upper Midwest it causes unrest among the people to speak as you do, about grace and about taking the emphasis off appearance. Some folks will go on glad handing you no matter what you say in meeting, just to keep up the appearance of unity. Some, however, will call the overseer and tell him you're speaking false doctrine in meeting when you talk about the divinity of Christ or salvation by grace and not works. If my wife would have worn makeup to a meeting it would have caused a stir. We may not have heard about it at least for a while but eventually it would have gotten back to us. But as I said in my other post these things are trivial, and really have nothing to do with why we left. She really had no desire to wear makeup(she never needed it) or pants or anything like that. Exclusivity mainly, but discounting the gift of Christ, and the deity of Christ, and exchanging these basic truths for ascetic behaviors to somehow become worthy to enter the kingdom, played a much bigger part. Especially exclusivity. The name of your post is EXACTLY what finally opened MY eyes. This feeling of, (well it's hard to describe), being the only chosen few on the face of the earth is a very powerful drug and the habit will not soon be broken, I'm afraid.
|
|
|
Post by cornsilk on Aug 8, 2006 8:05:07 GMT -5
Spiderman, I must have missed something. Where was it mentioned in withopeneyes' post that those within the church are "the only chosen few on the face of the earth"? I've found her to be one of the LEAST judgemental of those within on this board and I'm sure her feelings are as mine, that I can't put God into a box and dictate who is going to make it to heaven. Sometimes I wonder if at one time any of you believed that this was the only group going to heaven. I've never felt that way, and can only name a handful of times when I actually heard anyone point blank say those exact words. I would cringe inwardly when I thought of this being the only way......but then when I was in another fellowship they believed that THEY were the only way. I don't think this idea of exclusivity within a group is anything new or profound. Man has a way of wanting to belong, and wanting to "fit it" as it were. This can be seen in ethnic groups as well. In big cities there are complete neighborhoods of blacks, hispanic, orientals and white people. I think quite a stir is created when a black family moves to an "all white neighborhood" Ever hear the expression, "there goes the neighborhood"? It seems to me that in this age of "enlightenment" and "political correctness" that we fail to mention the elephant sitting in the corner of the living room. Sure, the words are never spoken, yet the thought is there.........it's what's inside us that makes us what we are, not what we pretend not to notice or talk about. Bottom line....we can believe what we WANT to believe, within or without the group of people who go to meeting. In the end, it's between God and each person. Like withopeneyes, I've never found a more loving group of people to fellowship with, you and Mrs. Spidey included.....I remember a lot of great times at your place, filled with laughter and FUN........especially our conversation about Metamucil........*grin* Hope we can get together again sometime!
|
|
|
Post by Zorro on Aug 8, 2006 13:58:33 GMT -5
I must have missed something. Where was it mentioned in withopeneyes' post that those within the church are "the only chosen few on the face of the earth"? I've found her to be one of the LEAST judgmental of those within on this board and I'm sure her feelings are as mine, that I can't put God into a box and dictate who is going to make it to heaven.It's in the title and subject of the thread. Withopeneyes was expressing her feelings when she heard the workers passing that judgement. I agree with you that clearly she isn't exclusive. As far as hearing it expressed that way point blank....the best way would be to ask the workers point blank. The workers currently in your field have openly told some in our old meeting that they can't have fellowship with anyone not in this way. When I discussed exclusivity with 2 overseers last year I was told that there is only one fold - and this is it. I was asked if I believed that a belief in the ministry and meetings in the home was a "fruit of salvation". Maybe some folks don't use those exact words to make the statements point blank, but say the same thing with other words....like describing people they've never met as unsaved, telling a story about someone who died outside the fold shortly after stopping coming to meetings, kids being the only Bible their teachers may ever read, .....stuff like that says the same thing. Listen carefully at conventions this year, especially testimonies. Last year we went to an out of state convention and I'm not exaggerating to say I only heard ONE testimony that mentioned Jesus....and none expressing a single thought or word of thanks for being saved by his sacrifice. Countless testimonies giving thanks for the way and the workers, though. BTW, I was told to take notice of this phenomenon years ago by an overseer. Believe me, since leaving there's no shortage of folks that believe we've lost our salvation....and have told us so. On the other hand, I've been pleasantly surprised at those who've expressed their belief that we continue to serve God. It really is a mixed bag, as far as the friends go. I'm pretty convinced that the workers are pretty exclusively exclusive, though. BTW, have you figured out which one is Zorro and which one is Spiderman, yet (you said before that you'd forgotten) Believe it or not, there are people that have known us for years and still call us by the other's name. Your mother-in-law is one We always get a chuckle out of that.
|
|
|
Post by withopeneyes (Mandy) on Aug 8, 2006 14:19:02 GMT -5
I appreciate all your comments. I believe that Christ's way is exclusive. HE is the way. That's pretty darn exclusive.
|
|
|
Post by cornsilk on Aug 8, 2006 20:13:37 GMT -5
Oh Zorro, I knew all along who was whom.......but far be it for me to be facticious! ;D It amuses me to see the "masked man tag team" at work! I suppose you exchange crime fighting uniforms all the time! Remember that it's what God thinks of us that matters. Don't get tangled up in what others are saying or thinking. I've not heard a word, if that means anything. I just hear that you're missed. Hope you'all are doing well and staying close to the "heart" of things! cornsilk
|
|
|
Post by Zorro on Aug 8, 2006 20:53:04 GMT -5
It amuses me to see the "masked man tag team" at work! I suppose you exchange crime fighting uniforms all the time!
Brothers look out for each other....but we DON'T wear each other's clothes!!!
Remember that it's what God thinks of us that matters. Don't get tangled up in what others are saying or thinking
Thankfully, God knows the truth of the matters. We remind ourselves all the time that we have no control over what people say or think, but I'll just say it is amazing what we hear. People have no idea what gets back to us, but let's just say that there are plenty of "little birdies" out there and we have a pretty good picture. Sometimes it's aggravating, sometimes flat out comical, but most of the time it's just sad. Try to imagine what it would feel like to know that someone you once went to meeting with openly says you have the spirit of the devil. Well, I'll tell you where I'm at right now.....God is teaching me what forgiveness really means. And its hard. But it's crystal clear to me that real freedom of spirit is on the other side of that experience. I'm not there yet and I don't know when I will be.....but God is leading me there, no question about it.
Hope you'all are doing well and staying close to the "heart" of things!
Thank you. Right now, we're overwhelmed by how alive and real God has been to us...we are very happy and thankful. It's been a difficult experience, but it's been appealing to me like Joseph.....his brothers were the ones who did him wrong, but in the end he said it was God who planned the experience for his good. No doubt in my heart and mind that God is leading our lives and plans only good for us. I'm writing a song right now and the the chorus is:
Life goes by and I think of all I see And I wonder, what you're trying to say to me.... There's a question burning deep inside my heart... Can I become the man you're asking me to be?
Lord, I believe I know you plan only good for me Jesus, please help my unbelieving heart
That's pretty much where I'm at.
So....pizza sometime?
|
|
|
Post by plainjane on Aug 8, 2006 21:39:47 GMT -5
Zorro, it's really weird, but with time, what people think or say about you will not matter as much as it does right now. The more you can be at peace with who and what you are---in your new lifestyle--the less these silly stories will come floating back to haunt you. It really matters not what people say about you... but this I will say. I really appreciate yours, Spiderman and Edgar's posts because you are so open and honest with your struggles in freeing yourselves from this religion.
I also can see Withopeneyes and Cornsilk's point-of-view, so it's great there are those who stay and don't buy the whole exclusivity thing. I felt like I had to leave, but who knows what may lie in the future? Ever hear of the 100 monkey syndrome? Maybe if more and more people think like them............(?)....
Jane
|
|
|
Post by Zorro on Aug 8, 2006 21:54:47 GMT -5
Zorro, it's really weird, but with time, what people think or say about you will not matter as much as it does right now. The more you can be at peace with who and what you are---in your new lifestyle--the less these silly stories will come floating back to haunt you.
Thanks, Jane. We absolutely believe what you're saying, and we've come a long way and are doing well....but you just can't replace the balm of time passing and God working each day. One thing that is so inspiring is to experience God's work in the body, having fellowship where we once felt there was none. WOW.
BTW, where have you been? Hope things are well in your corner of the world.
|
|
|
Post by plainjane on Aug 8, 2006 22:34:38 GMT -5
Oh, I got busy elsewhere Zorro. I read here once in a while just to keep up with you newly freed people's stories...and make sure you are doing okay in this process of change. Once I could see Jim and Missy were traversing quite nicely I focused on other places for the time being. Missy was the precious woman who originally brought me to this site.
Remember that your change threatens those who don't want to see what is truly going on and maybe that will help you to manage "storms of words" that have no meaning.... like the devil is in you---that kind of thing. Or people feeling sorry for you because you've lost your faith and will end up in a lost eternity. None of this is true, but until you come to peace with who you once were---these words can feel hurtful to you. When you are fully at peace with who you are, these kinds of stories are silly and irrelevant, believe me they are.
I know Zorro. When we open our minds and hearts to those we once judged and condemned because they worshiped somewhere besides meetings--- it's the most freeing and loving thing we can do for ourselves---and for them. You guys are doing so well! Give yourself a few more years and keep finding the peace that is within you and what other people say about you will be as sounding brass and tinkling symbols----it will roll off and you can see the humor in it---and love them as they are! I believe you already do this to some degree, but in time you will see..... You will see..... How okay you are. You'll be able to fully do this once the pain of your separation from those you truly love (professing friends) is healed....
It's all a wonderous healing process.... Jane
|
|
|
Post by cornsilk on Aug 9, 2006 5:16:56 GMT -5
Zorro, It saddens me to think that hurtful things are said, and even that a "birdie" would carry hurtful messages back to you. I guess that I had to learn to separate myself from idle gossip a LONG time ago. As for me, I will say that I only hear about how much your presence is missed and the fellowship that is lost because of your leaving. Remember there is a loss on "this side" as well, and from my own experience, people wonder if it's something they've done to make you leave. I know that even as we are considering a move to be closer to the kids down south that our worker asked us if he's offended us in some way......it's not from offences at all, but God's leading in that direction....it's amazing to me that when I am so desparately seeking His will in my life the number of doors that open to me and the strength I have to do those things that He asks of me. It's so scary for me to go outside my comfort zone and so unlike me to do so, but every morning I say to Him, "it's in Your hands", and it seems like His peace covers me. On a further note, I've been looking into the 7th chapter of Matthew where it speaks about judging. With what measure we judge others, so will we be judged. I'd like to keep my thoughts totally on Him, our judge and creator, and not on the judging which belongs to Him. We have to keep in mind what is our responsibility, and what is God's. I've been listening a LOT to Casting Crowns as I wind through unfamiliar territory.....I will praise You in this storm....... Pizza sounds awesome, whenever I get back home! cornsilk
|
|
|
Post by Greg Lee unplugged on Aug 9, 2006 5:27:50 GMT -5
Just a couple thoughts on this thing of offense.
One is that if Zorro was offended by someone, then Zorro is wrong for leaving. This would help people put the fault on the one that leaves, which is done by some (many?) anyway.
Another is people would rather take a responsibility for offending someone then to have their religion or its doctrine at fault.
Oh, one more.... having people wondering if "I" have caused an offense seems to be a good result of using the tool of guilt to keep people in line.
|
|
|
Post by guest5 on Aug 9, 2006 8:57:28 GMT -5
spiderman, cornsilk, and others - Aren't a bunch of you from the Jeff Thayer state of Iowa?
|
|
|
Post by Zorro on Aug 9, 2006 9:23:25 GMT -5
Just a couple thoughts on this thing of offense.
One is that if Zorro was offended by someone, then Zorro is wrong for leaving. This would help people put the fault on the one that leaves, which is done by some (many?) anyway.
Another is people would rather take a responsibility for offending someone then to have their religion or its doctrine at fault.
Greg, I agree completely that, generally speaking, the F&Ws do not understand the issue of one leaving for doctrinal reasons. It's been interesting to note the responses to our exit letter, where we made our best effort to explain that we were leaving because of disagreement with specific issues of doctrine, which we then explained in detail. The staunch friends who contact us asking us to reconsider say they have no idea what we're talking about, and none of that matters anyway....just come back to meetings. The exes that contact us say that they left for the exact same reasons, acknowledging a "sliding scale" of importance regarding each issue, and expressing the same feeling that they couldn't continue any longer in a fellowship with such diversity of opinion (even vehement disagreement) on the basics of orthodox doctrines. BTW, it is also amazing how many people there are in the fellowship that are recognizing this and are very alarmed. This problem is not just going to go away.
|
|
|
Post by Zorro on Aug 9, 2006 9:25:56 GMT -5
spiderman, cornsilk, and others - Aren't a bunch of you from the Jeff Thayer state of Iowa? Yes, at one time I counted about 30 registered posters from Iowa. I'd guess there's more
|
|
|
Post by spiderman on Aug 10, 2006 15:18:24 GMT -5
spiderman, cornsilk, and others - Aren't a bunch of you from the Jeff Thayer state of Iowa? Yes, at one time I counted about 30 registered posters from Iowa. I'd guess there's more To be fair to Jeff, these things were on my heart many years before Jeff arrived in the state. I really can't lay any of my leaving on him. He and I do disagree on some major points however. Exclusivity being one, the deity of Jesus being another. I also don't believe that this 2x2 ministry or meetings in home are "fruits of salvation" as Jeff describes them. That's just another way of saying that they are most assuredly exclusive.
|
|
|
Post by Zorro on Aug 10, 2006 16:08:38 GMT -5
To be fair to Jeff, these things were on my heart many years before Jeff arrived in the state. I really can't lay any of my leaving on him. He and I do disagree on some major points however. Exclusivity being one, the deity of Jesus being another. I also don't believe that this 2x2 ministry or meetings in home are "fruits of salvation" as Jeff describes them. That's just another way of saying that they are most assuredly exclusive. Always a good point to be clear on, Spidey. I'm not aware of anyone who left because of Jeff, or any individual, for that matter. Everyone that I know of left for issues of doctrine (exclusivity - and ALL its ugly implications and root causes - being the primary culprit. For me it was Christ's deity and salvation by grace) that were dealt with for long peiods of time......years for many. That doesn't mean that clarity wasn't wrought through the words and actions of individuals....but IMO most people successfully seperate "individuals" from the "belief system". It's interesting that Jeff, himself, has often said that we can't judge individuals, but we CAN judge belief systems.....I completely agree. Obviously, our judgements have led to different conclusions
|
|