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Post by _ on Aug 17, 2007 14:38:09 GMT -5
Is GiT an exclusive and hardline 2x2 or a open and nonexclusive reformist within the fellowship? Let's see what he has to say on the matter... On the one hand, GiT says - "I do believe that many participants of conservative, orthodox, Protestant churches are saved."
"I have repeatedly said that I believe salvation is possible outside of the fellowship, but not outside of Christ. I hence reject the much maligned "exclusivity" about which so much as been written by ex-2x2s."
And he asks - "how am I an "extreme 2x2ist"?" Ok.... based on this, one would be hard pressed to say he's an extreme, hardline, and exclusive 2x2. I mean, he openly accepts the Holy Spirit's work in the lives of members from different churches and believes salvation is not limited to those within the Friends and Worker's fellowship. It looks like he does not tow the party line, does not uphold 2x2ism, and does not have the 2x2 mindset. But let's take a closer look at some other things he's said on here - "I believe the fellowship to be the truest Church on the earth."
In reply to someone asking how to exit the fellowship he asks - "Will you abandon the Good Shepherd for the ways which are not the ways of God?"
In reply to someone asking how to exit the fellowship he states - "you should carefully consider what you are about to do, which is momentous: leave the Church of Christ; the Church of God, your Fold, and make yourself a wandering sheep without a Shepherd."
In reply to someone asking how to exit the fellowship he states - "By making a decision to forsake this, you are about to alienate yourself from the entire body, possibly forever." Now one reading these quotes would be lead to believe GiT IS an extreme, hardline, and exclusive 2x2. Did he not equate leaving the Friends and Worker's fellowship with abandoning "the Good Shepherd" and "the Church of Christ; the Church of God"? Did he not equate leaving the Friends and Worker's fellowship with alienating one's self with the Body of Christ? Did he not elevate the Friends and Worker's fellowship above all other groups of believers by saying it is "the truest Church on the earth"? So what are we to believe? Do we take the first set of quotes from GiT and believe he is non-exclusive as he says? Or do we take the second set of quotes from GiT and believe he is exclusive? I believe it would be appropriate for GiT to address these inconsistencies... GiT, what say you?
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Post by Zorro on Aug 17, 2007 15:28:33 GMT -5
The only conclusion I can draw is that GiT is dealing with a very common position of current members - claiming non-exclusivity (perhaps even believing it), but being unable to practice it.
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Post by Sylvestra on Aug 17, 2007 15:33:16 GMT -5
You are absolutely correct here Bryan! git could weasel a bit in the other threads, but when he thought he could really do a number on Monica, the truth came out!
What do I mean by a number? I mean offering guilt and shame as a reward for her, and the promise of damnation in her path.
It just makes my heart ache again for another of God's dear ones that is hurting!
Best regards, Edy
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Post by _ on Aug 17, 2007 15:47:08 GMT -5
And to top it of, here is one more quote from GiT - the fellowship IS the one true Church on the earth. And for all its failings and the feeble folk therein, it is where God dwells. And we are to believe he is not exclusive?
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timber
Senior Member
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Post by timber on Aug 17, 2007 15:56:49 GMT -5
I think he changed his mind at some point and decided to go with the "party line" for whatever reason. Perhaps he became convinced that salvation is indeed not possible outside "the way". I'd like to hear his reasoning, if so. I am one of those still in, but not judging anymore who is saved or not.
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Post by Just Maybe on Aug 17, 2007 16:08:47 GMT -5
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Post by Just Maybe on Aug 17, 2007 16:09:52 GMT -5
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_
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Post by _ on Aug 17, 2007 16:18:24 GMT -5
I think he changed his mind at some point and decided to go with the "party line" for whatever reason. I can fault no one for changing their mind... but let us be open about where we stand and not make inconsistent statements that leads to vagueness and confusion of where one is coming from on different issues and subjects... Take for example GiT... a few years ago he was quite adamant in leaving the fellowship and joining the Catholic church... even to the point of recommending to others in the same situation as monica to attend a Catholic service - Keep going Emma -in what ever path you choose - remember there is nothing wrong in even being a minimal member of the Truth\2x2, if you so choose. But if you are looking for a good church to go to, try your local Catholic church in your parish. You might like it! But since then he has changed is mind... as most of us have... I use to be full on professing... now I am not... Who would I be to denounce someone for changing their mind when I changed my own? If you follow the timeline of the quotes, he first says - the fellowship IS the one true Church on the earth. And for all its failings and the feeble folk therein, it is where God dwells. Then he makes these statements - "I do believe that many participants of conservative, orthodox, Protestant churches are saved."
"I have repeatedly said that I believe salvation is possible outside of the fellowship, but not outside of Christ. I hence reject the much maligned "exclusivity" about which so much as been written by ex-2x2s." And then in the timeline he says - "I believe the fellowship to be the truest Church on the earth."
In reply to someone asking how to exit the fellowship he asks - "Will you abandon the Good Shepherd for the ways which are not the ways of God?"
In reply to someone asking how to exit the fellowship he states - "you should carefully consider what you are about to do, which is momentous: leave the Church of Christ; the Church of God, your Fold, and make yourself a wandering sheep without a Shepherd."
In reply to someone asking how to exit the fellowship he states - "By making a decision to forsake this, you are about to alienate yourself from the entire body, possibly forever." So based on this timeline, he first is exclusive, then isn't, then he is again... So if he did change his mind, as you suggested might be a possibility... he did so back and forth... not just from non-exclusive to exclusive...
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Post by junia on Aug 17, 2007 16:59:12 GMT -5
Good observations Bryan. Just when I think I see some progression in GIT, he makes a statement that puts him squarely back in the exclusivist 2x2 camp.
Having said that, there's hope for everyone.
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Post by _ on Aug 17, 2007 17:33:17 GMT -5
Good observations Bryan. Just when I think I see some progression in GIT No no no, there has been significant progression in GiT... But that progression has pushed forward INTO exclusiveness and not out of it... Here are two statements he made in 2001 - "...and trying hard to break away from the "truth". It has many good points but I've had enough."
"I've never believed the truth functioned on "grace" since I was quite young." Now compare those two quotes to his quotes listed above and you can see there has been significant progression...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2007 17:48:57 GMT -5
Bryan,
To go back to what someone said in 2001 suggests to me that you have far too much time on your hands.
Havent you change your mind or position on some matters in the past 6 years?
I have.
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Post by HeadKnodder on Aug 17, 2007 17:56:22 GMT -5
I propose we [b]ALL[/b][/u] go back to meetings as headknodders - agreeing with everything the Workers say. After all, They are God's Chosen Servants!
Who wants to start the trend!
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_
Junior Member
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Post by _ on Aug 17, 2007 18:02:40 GMT -5
Bryan, To go back to what someone said in 2001 suggests to me that you have far too much time on your hands. You think? Logged into computer Opened outlook attached PST file Opened folder searched by sender Yes... less then 5 minutes... that is a lot of time... I take it you did not read the first part of reply #7... please do so...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 17, 2007 18:23:50 GMT -5
No Bryan, I didnt read all of post no 7.
Maybe its me thats got too much time on my hands. To even come here and read some of the posts.
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Post by no name on Aug 17, 2007 18:34:29 GMT -5
Bryan, To go back to what someone said in 2001 suggests to me that you have far too much time on your hands. You think? Logged into computer Opened outlook attached PST file Opened folder searched by sender Yes... less then 5 minutes... that is a lot of time... This was something he wrote to you in a personal/private e-mail correspondence, or something he said on a public message board?
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_
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Post by _ on Aug 17, 2007 18:39:44 GMT -5
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Post by no name on Aug 17, 2007 18:47:43 GMT -5
Glad to see it was public info . . . . . imo, it would be distasteful to display private correspondence in topics like this (i.e., when one particular member is being 'called out'). Thanks for clarifying.
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Post by _ on Aug 17, 2007 18:49:29 GMT -5
None of his above quotes came from persona correspondence between just the two of us... all his above quotes came from email lists and message boards...
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Post by diet coke on Aug 17, 2007 20:57:55 GMT -5
fm, exactly what is your fascination with GIT? Is it a personal vendetta, a hope for his salvation, an attempt to steer other people away from him, or something else?
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Post by ithascome on Aug 17, 2007 22:51:14 GMT -5
Well I would hope that you would hope for his salvation.
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Post by ithascome on Aug 18, 2007 3:08:14 GMT -5
I don't know ... how old are you. I will tell you this it is never too late.
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Post by ii on Aug 18, 2007 4:15:38 GMT -5
bryan why is it that you are on some sort of a holy crusade? why do you feel it necessary to prove others wrong? is it to prove that you are more perfect? is it that you need to prove to yourself that you can't be wrong? honestly man nobody is perfect and to keep on showing that others aren't perfect is not the spirit of a christian.
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Post by to ii on Aug 18, 2007 8:11:33 GMT -5
ii,
You are a 2x2ist and a defender of 2x2ists. You are biased towards 2x2ism regardless of truth. You hate Bryan because he points out truth. Or maybe you're just jealous because you know he's right.
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Post by no name on Aug 18, 2007 10:28:31 GMT -5
Well I would hope that you would hope for his salvation. Wouldn't that be like hoping for my 29th birthday? Let's see how long it take you to figure that one out... So . . . . . . your analogy is, because you're already 30 (and can never be 29 again) you can't/don't/won't hope for his salvation because such a thing for GIT is impossible. Okay. Then why spend time continuing to badger someone like GIT about his beliefs since you apparently don't seem to think he is saved anyway?
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Post by Jessi on Aug 18, 2007 10:34:34 GMT -5
With God all things are possible. We don't know who are the Lord's. Saul was a Christian killer on his way to Damascus to kill and imprison more Christians when Jesus knocked him straight off his donkey. You never know the moment when he might do the same for GiT. The LORD is a jealous God and his Name is Jealous (Ex 34:14). When He's had enough of GiT's games and words, he'll either take him out or snap him and break him until He says, "Lord, what do you want me to do?" (Hosea 6:1) That's what I pray for. Christ's Forever, Jessi
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Post by wanttobewithGod on Aug 18, 2007 11:06:47 GMT -5
Wow, Bryan. Pretty judgemental to say that someone can never be saved...and here I thought only God could decide that.... M.
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Post by no name on Aug 18, 2007 12:35:23 GMT -5
So . . . . . . your analogy is, because you're already 30 (and can never be 29 again) you can't/don't/won't hope for his salvation because such a thing for GIT is impossible. Okay. Then why spend time continuing to badger someone like GIT about his beliefs since you apparently don't seem to think he is saved anyway? You have guessed incorrectly... Please try again... Nah - I don't have the time to continue trying to figure out what your hidden message was. If you didn't actually mean what seemed pretty evident to more people than just me, then please -- enlighten us . . . . .
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Post by no name on Aug 18, 2007 12:43:36 GMT -5
So . . . . . . your analogy is, because you're already 30 (and can never be 29 again) you can't/don't/won't hope for his salvation because such a thing for GIT is impossible. Okay. Then why spend time continuing to badger someone like GIT about his beliefs since you apparently don't seem to think he is saved anyway? since it will take another few posts for someone to answer correctly, I will explain what I meant... Why should I hope for my 29th birthday when it has already happened? And why should I hope for GiT's salvation when it has already happened? Is it wrong for me to believe he is saved? No one said it was wrong for you to believe he is saved, so don't try that one. If you read what your answer was to someone's comment upthread, then I'm sure you should be able to figure out why people responded the way they did: fm, exactly what is your fascination with GIT? Is it a personal vendetta, a hope for his salvation, an attempt to steer other people away from him, or something else? Your response: And then, when someone questioned you about the above comment, rather than just fessing up and admitting you hadn't read diet coke's question clearly (and therefore hadn't noticed the little bit about hoping for GIT's salvation), you gave the strange analogy about your 29th birthday . . . Your answers gave us little choice but to conclude your initial response about "none of the above" was your true sentiment.
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